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See the later posts in discussion, but essentially the current state of affairs is as such:
-Stall is for the most part, dead.
-Hazard Stacking heavy offense is also dead, but Heavy Offense is DEFINITELY NOT
-While, like the predictions in the OP, the Pokemon in the metagame are bulkier, the metagame is much faster than what one would expect from a BO meta.
-Priority means essentially every "bulky" sweeper is also a speedy one.
-Even the bulkiest tanks are getting 2-shot by the power of the meta
-The lines between bulky offense, hyper offense, and balanced offense are extremely hard to see.
-It's my personal opinion that despite the "bulkier" nature of the metagame, considering actual playstyle, it's better to characterize XY as a super-hyper-offensive metagame the likes of which we haven't seen since DPP's LC.
Original OP:
Bulky offense-- a team style where 4-6 members are offensive behemoths that also bring significant bulk, resistances, and other defensive attributes-- an army of "tanks". Bulky offense uses this tanking ability to brute its way through defenses while tanking through enemy offense. Like stall, it's also fully capable of using its defensive "core" to effectively pivot and switch for momentum.
Going over some history,
Bulky Offense-- while defensively minded offensive teams were the norm in the more defensively-minded 2nd and 3rd gens, the phrase "bulky offense" and its concept rose to popularity as "tougher" teams began to emerge from the initial heavy offensive storm of early DP. They were spear-headed by the king of all offensive styles (and the whole meta in general): Garchomp. More and more this bulky powerful style of offense was emulated, and Garchomp would find itself surrounded by an entire gang of like-minded pokes in a team-- Heatran, Swampert, Zapdos, Tyranitar, Celebi, Hippowdon, Suicune, Metagross, Gyarados, etc.
Even after Garchomp got banned, the bulky offense train was in full swing, and was later joined by Scizor, Rotom-A, and temporary members Latios & Latias (and later ExtremeSpeed Dragonite). Bulky Offense was a premier style, and at some point carved its image as the most "basic" and the most "reliable" style in the hearts and minds of DPP players who constantly tried to make Hyper Offense, Stall, and later semi-stall work around Bulky Offense-- still, the balance of power was pretty even over all.
Bulky Offense didn't pause a moment in BW-- in fact, it seemed like GF was determined to expand the legions of Bulky Offense recruits. Sure, in both DPP and BW Bulky Offense took serious blows when Deo-S was on the scene, but in both gens this proved to be a temporary annoyance-- and that the tiering staff seemed destined to come to its aid.
While Pokes like Suicune, Swampert, and Metagross found themselves retiring in the face of young'uns, Terrakion, Landorus, Latios/Latias (revived), Hydreigon, and later Keldeo lead the charge. Dragonite got powered up, and Politoed gave birth to whole new styles of bulky offense based on rain, with pokes like Rotom-W and Gastrodon. Even the Genosect era was great for bulky offense, with Genosect itself being a bulky offensive mon, and simultaneously forcing everyone to use Heatran. lol
Through the last two generations, bulky offense has always been in the thick of the metagame-- but now with XY, it seems that truly, its era to rule has come. All the shifts in XY mechanics seem to point only at the absolute rule of Bulky Offense as a style.
Weakened Steel-types: With their Ghost and Dark immunities gone, Steel-types are not the defensive assets they once were-- they are far more vulnerable to a number of sweepers and offensive comboes, and have lost a great deal of their ability to wall; however, the same cannot be said of their ability to tank, and to attack. Steel has a great number of resistances, more than enough for a smart switch-in followed by a counter offense. If anything, Steel has become a better offensive type because of Fairy. While sets like Specially Defensive Jirachi may take a great blow, Scizor and Heatran will not lose a beat. Indeed the change in Steel-types is a great blow to Stall, but not so to Bulky Offense.
Fairy Types: Fairy typing grants even more boon to the Bulky Offense style. Its immunity to Dragon and key resistances (while also being very few and LIMITED resistances) puts an even greater premium on intelligent pivoting, rather than walling. Azumarril, Togekiss, and other fairies are also built of Bulky Offense.
Temporary Weather: With weather effects dropped to 5 turns, the ability to use them for sustained sweeping abilities has been seriously hampered. Pokemon like Excarill, Venusaur, and Tornadus can't rely on weather to enhance their ability to sweep. Furthermore, its a crippling blow to weather based Stall strategies as well (looking at you, Tentacruel, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn). While the HO and Stall strategies that relied on extended weather took heavy blows, the same cannot be said for Bulky Offense. Bulky Offense does not use weather for extended strategies, but instead limit their abuse to wall breaking in a few turns-- a Landorus EQ here, a Keldeo Hydro Pump or Dragonite Hurricane there. Smart pivot in, wall break, smash the opponent, then get out to another smart pivot. This is a style of weather abuse that will largely be preserved. Moreover, Bulky Offense's best abusers of weather are often the setters themselves-- Tyranitar's Pursuiting abilities are not at all hampered, and Politoed still has good bulk and a tremendously powerful Hydro Pump. The temp weather function hurts all its rivals more than it hurts Bulky Offense.
Sticky Web: Bulky Offense can win without its Speed. Sure, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Terrakion hate it, but they still all have the bulk and resistances to be useful regardless. As the "middle man" of Speed games, bulky offense can win even with its Speed hampered-- its no where near as disabled as HO. Meanwhile, Stall teams don't have the ability to really profit from using Sticky Web. If anything, Bulky Offense, using Sticky Web to destroy Heavy Offense-- has the most potential to abuse this new hazard.
Defog: This is probably the nail in the coffin. Defog, assuming it gets distribution to decent mons (counting on you Poke Bank...), removes hazards from both sides of the field, and is basically unblockable. This is a tremendous blow to both Heavy Offense and Stall teams. The former because it needs those hazards to reliably break down bulkier foes, and become much more prediction heavy without them. The later because Hazards are their primary source of damage-- Stall with its Hazards easily removed is like a Snake without venom. Bulky Offensive teams though-- they can usually get away with just running Stealth Rock, and their members and setters are bulky enough to set up Stealth Rock multiple times in a game with relative ease. Even failing that though, Bulky Offensive teams are usually built to be able to succeed even without SR on the field.
Assault Vest is an item built for tanking, built for wall breakers, and built for that core strategy of bulky offense. Bulky Offensive sweepers such as Dragonite and Gyarados will forever lament the inability to abuse it with their favorite set up moves, but Pokemon like Tyranitar, Heatran, and Scizor should find this a welcome addition.
Weaker Special Attacks-- While I myself am not sold on this, there are many that think this "slow and steady" push on special offensive will make a move away from HO and to bulky O.
Lots and lots of new threats More threats simply means more pressure on stall. Even "defensive" threats just mean more enemies that stall has to be able to wall with its team of 6. With Mega Evolutions, our new ninja friend, and even obscure crap like Heal Bell Togekiss, Stall has a lot of new enemies to account for if it wants to succeed without becoming bulky offense (relying on more fire power and strategic sacrifices to win).
These are just the beginning-- there is a continuing trend of mechanics found across the threads of UT that point at the debilitation of Stall and HO; with basically nothing crippling Bulky offense severely.
Is this the dawn of a new bulky offense Empire? Do Heavy Offense or Stall have any footing to stand on, in this terrain that seems almost unfairly levered towards the benefit of this army of sturdy, reliable, and indomitable tanks?
In this thread, let's further continue the discussion on mechanics that favor bulky offense, as well as any (if there are any) that run contrary. Also the discussion of how and if the other styles can (and I'm actually sure they will) persevere in this generation.
This is really looking like the way to go for gen VI. With nerfs to special attacks and the introduction of the assault vest (a defensive item for offensive Pokemon) it is easier for tanky Pokemon to pivot into large attacks relatively unscathed.
Defog and the weather nerf definitely are the downfall of hyperoffence. Stall might not be entirely dead, but the usual strategy of hazard-setting and phasing will have to be replaced by an entirely new one (toxic itself in conjunction with a semi-trapping move, for example; it helps that both got buffs this time)
I hope so. The newly introduced moves and Pokemon, the nerf to weather and Special Attacks and the easy removal of hazards all seem to point towards it.
I'd love a Bulky Offense meta. Most HO mons could change their approach to still fit in and many other Pokemon suddenly become viable. I also do not mind stall at all and think that there might be a chance that it is still viable. We'll see.
Assualt Vest, good point. Totally forgot to include it. I added Assault Vest, weaker specially attacks (not sold on this one though), and just the volume of new threats to the OP.
Balanced teams could be one way the HO sweepers could adapt to this new environment. Instead of suicide hazard leads, for example, you could use a bulky tank/wall with Stealth Rock that can beat common defoggers (Mamoswine comes to mind, at least for things that aren't Scizor)
Balanced teams could be one way the HO sweepers could adapt to this new environment. Instead of suicide hazard leads, for example, you could use a bulky tank/wall with Stealth Rock that can beat common defoggers (Mamoswine comes to mind, at least for things that aren't Scizor)
The most reliable users of Defog are Empoleon, Flygon and Scizor. Maybe Skuntank due to STAB against Fairies and no Stealth Rock weakness? The thing is, bulky Mamoswine can deal with Empoleon and Flygon (and Skuntank, for the matter lol) while it can dent Scizor. It can set up his own rocks afterwards and likes the Leftovers recovery, so I don't think it's far off at all. Nice thinking.
Assault Vest + The MeVos, the fairy typing which is kinda defensive. Blastoise comes to mind since he's got it all, from a decent spinner to a decent offensive thread especially against Gengar and Aegislash because of dark pulse.
But yeah, the implications of the changes all lead to a much more 'even' metagame. In so far as, if everything is viable, then it's the jack of all trades that win. And the jack of all trades in Pokemon are pokes that are bulky but still have great offenses. They do all the jobs, they break stuff, they stick around, they make free switches for themselves. Which is what you want.
Bulky Offense has always been my favorite playstyle, so thanks for making this thread! I'm very excited to see a return to Pokemon that can both take hits and deal them out. Swampert is the perfect example of a Pokemon who was amazing in Gen 4 but just couldn't handle the incredibly offensive Gen 5. But now with all the changes...
I'm glad to see some people already mentioning that list of reliable Defog users from the other thread, because Empoleon, Flygon, Scizor, and even the Lati twins are the types of Pokemon that would be described in Gen 5 as "reliable rapid spinners". Because Defog can't be blocked and has wider distribution, it's going to be important to have bulkier hazard setters like Mamo or Pert.
Stall's looking like it will have a recovery as well, so it will be important for any Bulky Offense team to consider mons like stallbreaker Crobat. It will be interesting to see how priorities change in the upcoming generation!
Stalls new method seems to be bind/status. If this is the case could sleep talkers rise again? The ability to absorb status will likely be more valuable as hyper offensives lose power.
This was how the previous gen was too, though... I mean, with shit like Ferrothorn and Politoed sitting around frail sweeper teams just couldn't compete - what exactly always OHKO's a Politoed or Ferrothorn in the rain that itself isn't simply obliterated by a single priority move or status effect like burn or paralyze, or simply out-predicted? Bulky offense has trumped attempts at stall teams or sweeper gambits ever since Hippodown, Gliscor, Nidoqueen, Gastrodon, Heatran, Scrafty etc. became popular. The only frail sweepers we really have left exist because they can fall back on critical support moves like Disable, Substitute, etc.
Many pokemon can now totally invalidate substitutes with infiltrator (or, parental bond), which is a very critical element that will be a huge threat to any sweeper team - since all sweeper teams rely on substitues to take those critically timed hits for them.
It's my personal opinion that traditional full stall will suffer even more than heavy offense.
With its hazards nerfed, Heavy offense will just have to play smarter and rely more on set up sweeping. Some mega evos like Luke and blaze (if it remains...) should help. With Lati@s getting such tremendous nerfs, we might even let them use soul dew. With defog in the meta, Deo-s and D may stay around. Depending how the chips fall, HO can still come out strong.
Stall is a different story. We're talking about a team that will almost lose its win condition. If defog hits the meta as hard as we think, Stall will basically be defanged-- it'll be bluster with no bite. Furthermore, we can't forget that stall still has only 6 team slots with which it must find ways to wall all the old Pokemon, plus all the new offensive AND defensive threats.
A bulky renaissance is a major problem for stall-- because it means less hazard reliant HO enemies that have to think twice about defog, and more bulky offense teams that defog without a second thought. Add in HealBell Togekiss and the potential addition of Deoxys-S and D to the mix (two of the game's best Taunt abusers and Stall breakers)-- Stall loses almost any leg to stand on. Again, depends how the chips fall, but I really see stall as the biggest loser of this generation.
One thing is certain though, I think both stall and HO will need to hybridize more with BO in order to survive. Teams at both outer ends will need to move closer in.
Defensive teams will need more power to make up for the Unreliability of Hazards. Offensive teams will need more bulk in order to survive extended battles.
The range of team diversity will be taking a huge hit from BW
Metagross has always been one of my most favorite pokemon, but I have to admit that it is somewhat useless in OU this gen. Seeing a LO gengar can OHKO Metagross is really painful :(
Metagross still has amazing offensive power. Now his main two moves (Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch) are STRONGER. Why would he drop? He's as rock-solid as always in my book.
Metagross still has amazing offensive power. Now his main two moves (Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch) are STRONGER. Why would he drop? He's as rock-solid as always in my book.
He was close to dropping last gen. And still gets enormous competition from Lucario and Scizor. The nerf to his typing doesnt help either. He didnt even get a mega either :c
All he really has going for him is Meteor Mash, Psychic STAB and being good at Stealth Rock setting.
EDIT: He could also run a really nasty (yet seldom used) mixed set to lure in his typical checks.
I've still not been convinced that Defog will be worth using over something like Starmie or Mega Blastoise (who are both great bulky offense anti-spinblocker spinners) even with the archetype that probably appreciates hazards the least, but everything else here is solid. BO will be very scary in Gen 6.
I think stall should simply adapt to the new meta in order to survive. If anything, I see potential for stall in OU (it can't get worse than gen 5 OU stall since it was pretty much dead and buried during B2W2). Stall shoudl rely more on things like toxic, buffed trapping moves and most of all fast stallers. Pranksters such as Sableye (assuming he keeps Prankster as his hidden ability; DO NOT TOUCH THIS GUY GAMEFREAK) can get off a fast Taunt to prevent Defog, which is pretty much the only way to block it (except for maybe Magic Bouncers?), and fast stall is actually surprisingly good in general. I'm not writing off stall yet.
And of course you can always use semistall. Or bulky offense after all if all else fails, everything is better than HO.
I don't see Defog as a negative, nor do I think it kills stall/hazard teams. Absolutely it kills PURE defensive stall teams (such as Stallrein). Which is good, I don't think anyone enjoyed playing against them, IMO they were a borderline cancerous play-style anyway. Defog just forces more clever uses of entry hazards.
Phazers (already utilized by many hazard based teams yes, but now critical)/Trappers indirectly get a buff, and if you want to use entry hazards, your team composition is going to have to meticulously utilize both. In the meantime, it also allows a lot of Pokemon who were shunned from the metagame by a weakness to the dreaded SR to have a place.
Could hazard/stall play just drop from competitive play? Absolutely, I just don't think it is a given. And if they do stay, it will be in a very different capacity for sure.
I think it is too soon to freak out over "less options", because new options may emerge. I will remain optimistic about the diversity of the meta.
Yes things are going to change, but that is good isn't it? Don't you want a new meta?
Edit: @ Robert, I was typing my response as you posted yours. I agree, stall teams just require a large amount of adaptation.
I think stall will be fine. Sure, Defog makes it easier for them to remove hazards, but that would also remove any hazards on your own side too. It would also remove reflect/screen which is something stall typically struggles with. Stall has more tools than hazards; leech seed, toxic, scald/willowisp, reliable recovery, regenerator, rocky helmet, iron barbs, dragon tail, and so on. Stall teams also use hazard setters than can do it multiple times. If they use defog or spin.... well just find an opportunity later in the game.
There was no power creep this gen, barring a few mega-evolutions, but without a life orb or choice item they typically don't hit much harder or even as hard as the base form. Stall also has 100% accurate roar/whirlwind now, buffed partial-trapping moves (whirlpool) and doesn't need to fear weather as much. Celebi, Venusaur, and Tangrowth can lol at breloom. I'll tell you, the biggest issue for putting together a stall team is deciding who is going to take rain boosted hydro pumps and sun boosted fire blast / v create. Who is going to switch into darmanitan? Who is going to switch into rotom-w? Who switches into infernape? Keldeo?Now it's less threatening.
Meanwhile, the threat of sticky web is so high that less and less people will be running banded terrakions, specs keldeo, band garchomp. Alakazam is less useable. These types of people that love fast hard hitters are psychologically nerfed by the mere threat of galvantula, while stall players couldn't care less about it. There's just less hard hitters across the board, making stall that much more viable. Finally, crits got nerfed. Good for everyone.
Oh, I am not at all complaining-- just to be certain. I'm surprised you took my post as complaining. I am simply being objective.
I am being severe in regards to the reality stall faces because it annoys me to see in all threads of UT this notion that "stall is reviving" (posted in generally bad posts), when all the objective material and facts seem to point to the opposite-- that stall in its traditional form is dead. And I'm not talking about "adapted" stall, but you'll notice all my points are targeting traditional stall specifically.
Bulky teams will be popular (as offensive teams). But Traditional stall? I can't see anything that seems to give it hope-- not without a LOT of bans.
a) Hazards de-fanged
b) all offensive teams are bulkier (can pretty much all shrug off and lol at direct attacks from traditional stall teams)
c) wall breakers with Taunt (like deoxys) will be more available, more powerful, and likely more frequent. Keep in mind Sableye in the meta HURTS stall, more than it helps it.
d) Heal Bell will be available on more relevant metagame threats
e) Using weather to bolster defensive abilities will be extremely limited. Using weather for short bursts of power needed to wall break (which we all know how stall loves) will be alive and well.
f) Steel types have lost a lot of ability to wall (still have good ability to tank)
g) Nerf on powder moves mean less ability for stall to abuse status
h) Boost of Electric types (nerf of Thunder Wave) makes many offensive pokemon even more difficult for stall to hinder. In general, the greatly reduced ability to throw Thunder Wave around will really hurt stall.
i) Scizor and TTar got more massive boosts that improve their trapping. Magnezone as well. PLUS all of the boosted "wrap" type moves. Some in this thread seem to think this will help Stall-- it does not. NO team hates getting a member trapped and killed more than traditional stall.
Sure it's easier to take a hit in XY most likely. That doesn't equal a greater ease of winning with stall tactics.
The new defog just seems plain stupid for all team types imo, the good thing about rapid spin was that it had counter play, if the new defog is as it sounds like then it just makes it hard for a team relying on hazards to really do anything at all as all the hard work can be wiped in one turn and theres nothing you can do about it. This will shift the matter increasingly toward offense as it is a lot easier to get SR up than multiple layer of (toxic) spikes. RIP Rain Stall <3
As for the main argument I do think once the meta settles down that bulky offence will see a large amount of usage. The thing that is unhealthy about bulky offence is that in my eyes you get the best from both worlds and pokemon with large bulk + large defensive stats have sacrificed speed in the past to achieve that combination. the new sticky web just seems to make it so that their lack of speed is completely irrelevant and prio is generally too weak to stop the bulky offense sweepers without significant damage beforehand. The nerfs to defensive playstyles makes containing stuff such as set up DDtar (hoping this is revived) a lot harder to contain. I'm looking forward to how this pans out as this will be the first 'weatherless' ( yeah people will still abuse weather ik) meta I will be playing and the vast amount of changes should be interesting.
Bulky offense is honestly one of my favorite playstyles along with balanced offense because they both actually create a "fairer" game requireing more prediction for both sides (HO is too "Ill just blast the opponent with my most powerful move", and Stall is "I'm gonna continuously use protect until his entire team dies from poison, Oh he beat me? doesn't matter, I wasted half an hour of his time anyway"). The signs show that bulky offense will be the norm next gen. HO will have to adapt to balanced offense because of the HUGE power creep this gen (170 Sp.Att MeGengar) and defog hurting spike stacking. Pure Stall will fall to the wayside due to weather nerfs and the loss of Ghost and Dark resistances in Steel types but Semi stall will show up still, being similar to Balanced teams.
