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All Gens break that mon: crobat (gen 6)

Porii Sames

Porii Sames

(approved by Jellicent )

hi there, in this thread we'll be looking at mons through the gens that are frequently below par, very uncommon picks (below standard niche stuff for the most part), but have interesting enough options that they might be usable or even metagame threats if they had a couple extra perks going for them, and try to determine what those couple perks might be. this could be adding an ability, changing one of its types, giving it a couple of moves, raising a couple of its stats by a marginal amount, etc. we'll start in gen 1 and go to gen 6, and cycle back through. i'm not as in-the-know on generations 3 and 4 thesedays so if anyone wants to shoutout some mons they think would be good ideas for those gens, feel free!

the first mon will be... omastar in gen 1
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all non-goldon rocks suck pretty hard in gen 1, which is really too bad because i think many of them have some solid potential to check the rampant normal moves in the tier. omastar has solid 70/125/115 bulk and it hits quite hard with its large special where it's capable of firing off STAB hydros or powerful blizzards for exeggutor. omastar's shortcomings are however that its movepool doesn't allow for it to hurt opposing waters or chansey much, it can't really spread status to cripple the myriad of threats that switch in safely, its low speed means it doesn't crit often and only gets the jump on chansey and slower, and while it can take STAB body slams all day it's hard for it to really take on tauros or lax with the former's ability to hit strong with earthquake and its high crit rate and the latter's set relying on rest and being able to safely switch in to starmie or chansey mitigating its impact. so how could we help omastar succeed in the RBY OU meta?
 
Don't know how these threads usually go as to how much we can change, but I was thinking of the following as "minimal" changes:

Rock/Water typing -> Ground/Water typing + Earthquake

You lose the Normal resist, but Tauros still only 2HKOes with Hyper Beam (misses OHKO w/ crit) and even has a chance to survive a crit Body Slam into Hyper Beam, while Oma easily 2HKOes back with Hydro Pump. Earthquake gives Oma the chance to 3HKO Chansey. But the big kicker here is the Electric/Twave immunity that comes with the Ground typing. Ground/Water gives Oma next to no weaknesses in the meta apart from rare Mega Drain Eggs and Gengars, and Oma's sheer bulk gives it a lot of wiggle room even with the lack of recovery outside of Rest. Oma now completely cockblocks Zapdos (and Jolteon), but doesn't force you to use Goldon which have a lot of troubles considering their lack of special bulk and weaknesses.

I could see a set of:
Earthquake
Hydro Pump
Blizzard / Body Slam
Rest

putting in a lot of work in the current meta and making Oma a decent mixed tank to think about using akin to Snorlax, albeit on a smaller scale.
 
With rise of Bslam/IceB/Reflect/Rest Snorlax's and EQless (switched for Fire Blast) Tauros' Omastar can have a niche. Also stoss chansey just runs it in a rest loop.
It already became a center piece in UU.
 
some cool ideas so far! didn't know omasatar already had a gen 1 niche, never seen it myself.

for gen 2, our first mon is... typhlosion!

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fire types tend to struggle in general, and gen 2 is no exception, with only bellyzard making common OU appearances. typhlosion has always seemed like a cool mon in theory to me, with powerful fire blasts and interesting coverage in EQ and thunderpunch and other options like dynamicpunch and hp ice. however, it seems to just not quite be strong enough to break through common bulkier teams and provides little defensive utility, in addition to struggling with lax if it lacks dpunch or good luck. how would you fix typhlosion to make it more suited to the OU metagame?
 
RBY Omastar: Recover. A bit late for this but I'll add it anyway. Instant recovery goes a long way in improving the niche it already has.

GSC Typhlosion: Fire/Fighting, optionally with Cross Chop. You can now blow through Snorlax and Chansey, completely remove Tyranitar as a threat and have a chance to 2HKO Rhydon after Spikes damage using Cross Chop or Dynamic Punch, but Water-types are still stops to it to keep it from being too big of a threat. Fire/Electric could be fun, it gets to wall Zapdos and Raikou while blasting away with STAB Fire Blasts. Fire/Ground with BD I think would be a bit much, you can OHKO Suicune after spikes damage after a drum. You'd pretty much be forced to run > 100 Speed Pokemon with a strong super effective hit to check it. Fire/Ground with SD could be a problem too. STAB EQ with high speed, strong Attack boosting options and the ability to easily abuse Zapdos and Raikou lacking HP Water, and STAB Fire Blast to melt #1 Physical Phazer Skarmory seems like a recipe for disaster.

GSC Kingdra: Spikes. The title says Kingdra, I'm guessing there'll be a post for it later. It's a spiky sort of Pokemon, and it'd seems like it'd fit in as a more balanced defensive Water-type spiker vs. Cloyster's physically defensive/offensive Water-type spiker.
 
Enigami said:
GSC Typhlosion: Fire/Fighting, optionally with Cross Chop. You can now blow through Snorlax and Chansey, completely remove Tyranitar as a threat and have a chance to 2HKO Rhydon after Spikes damage using Cross Chop or Dynamic Punch, but Water-types are still stops to it to keep it from being too big of a threat. Fire/Electric could be fun, it gets to wall Zapdos and Raikou while blasting away with STAB Fire Blasts. Fire/Ground with BD I think would be a bit much, you can OHKO Suicune after spikes damage after a drum. You'd pretty much be forced to run > 100 Speed Pokemon with a strong super effective hit to check it. Fire/Ground with SD could be a problem too. STAB EQ with high speed, strong Attack boosting options and the ability to easily abuse Zapdos and Raikou lacking HP Water, and STAB Fire Blast to melt #1 Physical Phazer Skarmory seems like a recipe for disaster.

GSC Kingdra: Spikes. The title says Kingdra, I'm guessing there'll be a post for it later. It's a spiky sort of Pokemon, and it'd seems like it'd fit in as a more balanced defensive Water-type spiker vs. Cloyster's physically defensive/offensive Water-type spiker.
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i think yeah giving it belly drum + an additional good STAB would be what could give it a niche, sucks that it would kinda just outclass zard at that point

didnt mean to put kingdra in there but i probably will later, spikes with rest and bell support could go a long ways on stall teams.
 
I'm taking more of an "improving what it does already" approach here.

GSC Typhlosion was mainly used for Thunder Punch, so I think giving it the Electric Typing would have given it a clearer niche over Charizard. Maybe chuck in a more visible Electric Movepool, and have some stats that distinguish it better. Why not give it +10 Physical Attack, in exchange for SpD, to produce a nice mixed sweeper (then again, Charizard would have probably preferred that). This would produce a flexible Pokemon that can counter Skarmory extremely effectively, accommodating offensive teams.

I think Kingdra in general would prefer a larger Physical Movepool to accommodate its rarer Physical variants. Things that other Dragon Types learn, such as Earthquake, would make it better. If we move into Gens 5-7, lower the Def and SpD by 10 points each to add to its attacking stats, and you have a Rain Victreebell with a superior defensive typing.
 
some nice options; i'm partial to the ones provided by Chippy2001 as it seems to accommodate typhlosion while not making it steal zard's niche from under it. today's pokemon is... gen 3 tentacruel.
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going through some of the lower tiers, tentacruel stuck out to me. it can spin spikes away and it's immune to toxic, although it takes residual damage from the spikes and sandstorm that are inevitably paired together usually. still, it's typically a good option for spinning on skarm. however, it has pretty big shortcomings; it has some serious 4MSS as it has the moves to ward off mence, pert, ttar, and celebi but it's not able to fit all of those on one set while still spinning. additionally, it has general difficulty with bulky waters, both as competition and as switchins. milotic and suicune take little from it, and other specially defensive mons can switch in. unlike forretress, it can't start initiative by laying hazards. it's also susceptible to dugtrio. so, how do we fix ol 'cruel?
 
With Levitate, Tentacruel would totally laugh at Swamp, Trio and those Spikes he is supposed to spin. Still, without some boost to his S. Atk. he would be a pretty mediocre spinner due to the existance of Gengar ( and the rare Dusclops). However, you can pair it with a Pursuiter or use his now amazing typing to set-up a SD. He can do it safely in every single water except Starmie.
 
I feel like Tentacruel could appreciate something like that grants it an immunity to let it pivot easier, and be less likely to eat a super-effective hit. It would make the spinning more consistent as a result. Levitate would make it a LOT better, and if it got Defog it would make it among the best entry hazard removers in the game.
 
You're forgetting this is specifically for ADV Tentacruel, before Defog removed hazards or even existed.

Also, it has happened twice now so I just wanna say Chippy, you've mostly just slightly tweaked other peoples' ideas. I'd already brought up about Fire/Electric GSC Typhlosion before you did, and now you're posting about Levitate ADV Tentacruel when Eeveeto already did. I mean, I don't think there's any rules about that but maybe try coming up with different ideas of your own or acknowledging the other poster?
 
Giving it knock off and natural cure (which I think would work thematically with the immortal jellyfish) would probably be enough to give it a solid niche as a utility pokemon. A simple set of surf / knock off / rapid spin / rest, for e.g. You could even drop either spin or knock off for mirror coat or toxic as you please, since you can afford to mirror coat a tbolt now that you have recovery. Natural cure + rest would also mean you can happily stay in on gengar trying to spinblock you and surf it for chip damage without caring about being burned.
 
In GSC? Swapping its Special Attack and Special Defense stats - doing it *right* by the special split - might be enough to bump it into lower OU. Probably better than Heracross and Rhydon anyway.

One of Tentacruel's issues as a mixed sweeper is it relies on Water coverage coming off a mediocre Special Attack stat. Skarm can play for pump misses and can eat a couple surfs without too many issues. Gengar can do similar. Miltank also does not fear it all that much and can play for paralysis. With a boosted Surf, those guys struggle a lot more to switch in, resolving a lot of Tentacruel's "little issues" that tend to stack up against it and render it quite checkable.

And if you do go for pump, that's a guaranteed 2HKO on a Miltank trying to switch in. Hell that's a 4HKO on Lax with Spikes up. That's Raikou levels of Special Attack, remember, so it can do a lot. Tentacruel becomes very tough to switch into, as it no longer just sets up on its first turn: It can throw a punch right out of the gate.

Maybe make its Attack base 90, too, so it can roughly 50% 2HKO a Snorlax switching into SD with Spikes up. That way ST Curselax has to get particularly lucky to stop you cold, rather than merely slightly lucky. Would also all but guarantee the 2HKO on Zapdos.

Dunno if all that would "break" ol' Tenta but I figure it's more fun to tweak as little as possible because it's trivial to break a mon if you change enough things.
 
Enigami said:
You're forgetting this is specifically for ADV Tentacruel, before Defog removed hazards or even existed.

Also, it has happened twice now so I just wanna say Chippy, you've mostly just slightly tweaked other peoples' ideas. I'd already brought up about Fire/Electric GSC Typhlosion before you did, and now you're posting about Levitate ADV Tentacruel when Eeveeto already did. I mean, I don't think there's any rules about that but maybe try coming up with different ideas of your own or acknowledging the other poster?
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Looking back, I probably should have mentioned "like <insert user> said" or something. Sorry about that, will be more mindful in the future. Never been good at discussion.
 
good stuff! i was thinking of levitate as well or at least something not to make it susceptible to ground moves like a typing change or smth.

the new mon to discuss is... mesprit in gen 4.
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always had a soft spot for this mon back when i played. mesprit is surprisingly versatile, with a movepool giving it CM capabilities, a pivot move, the option to go mixed, a cool ability, the option to work as a utility counter to some common mons, and it can lure specific threats like scizor or blissey. unfortunately for mesprit, it doesn't have the bulk that utility mons like uxie or cress have, and while it can theoretically deal with many of the answers to it by either hitting them with a twave, uturning out, or using one of its many coverage moves, it's difficult to predict what kind of threats your opponent will bring and when they will switch them in. so how could we fix mesprit in as few changes as possible?
 
2 changes:

1: Swap his Attack and Speed. In DPP OU he never gets to use his 105 Physical Attack anyway. On the other hand, 80 Speed Sucks for this Mon and with 105 he now outspeeds everything up to base 100, which includes things like Celebi ( Singal Beam), Flygon ( Ice Beam), Heracross ( Psychic), Gliscor ( another Ice Beam before it U-Turns out) and Zapdos ( even though Mesprit generally won,t kill this, damaging it before it damages you improves the match-up a lot). The main niche of Mesprit is still being and offensive Psychic with Healing Wish ( and Rocks, but Azelf also does that) and the extra Speed is really useful for that.

2: Learn Lovely Kiss. It fits Mesprit. Now, his niche of Healing Wish support is even better, as not only it will heal a partner, it will also neutralize a foe, forcing an unconfotable switch after Mesprit sacrifices himself.
 
Psychic -> Psychic/Steel

Now you have a jirachi that does almost every jirachi set better except for physical scarf. Levitate I think makes up for the drop in speed a bit, especially on slower boosting sets anyway. and while jirachi is still probably better this definitely gives mesprit serious consideration for teams imo
 
I think Mesprit's main issue is that while it has mixed attacking stats, it can't necessarily use them well. While versatile, it doesn't have the speed to make use of it (Like Eeveeto said). While it is bulky, the disparity between HP and the defenses means it takes more % than it would like as well. I like what was said there since swapping Speed and Atk also gives minimal trade-off while giving Mesprit a more defined role.

However, I feel like swapping a defensive stat and speed would make more sense, since it would be a waste to drop off the potential in Mixed Sweeping. Given the Speed is 80 as well as HP, swapping SpD/Def and Speed would maximize the bulk it gets out of this trade-off, and keep it as a mixed attacker. 80/105/80 or 80/80/105 bulk is still pretty bad mind you, but it would at least not be completely dead in the water. Plus, 105/105/105 attack spread is really, really nice. You could shuffle the numbers a bit rather than simply swap stats, but given the idea was brought up I thought I'd tickle it.

With access to Power-Up Punch (No idea why but lets not complain), Elemental Punches, Acrobatics, U-Turn and even Knock Off, Mesprit would definitely have potential if we went down this route. Definitely a very unpredictable Pokemon when its strong special movepool is considered (Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Psyshock, Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, BoltBeam).
 
Regarding Mesprit in DPP, I think the biggest draw to it for me right now is the fact that when invested in HP and Def, it can serve as a really solid check to both DDnite and DDgyara at the same time with its boltbeam coverage. It also has a nice role-compression to it with being a fighting resist that levitates that isn't weak to SR and also can use SR itself. So to be honest, I don't really see Mesprit as a mon that is "below par" but rather that it has a lot of unseen potential in the meta.

That said, in order to capitalize on these strengths and make it more popular, a very cool perk would be to give it electric typing alongside psychic, which doesn't exist in the meta at all. This would give Mesprit even more of a unique role by making it one of the best Zapdos-handlers in the game. Another cool trait with the electric typing would be the use of a stab electric move combined with ice beam. If it were an electric type, I'd like to see it use discharge > tbolt to compress both thunderbolt and thunder wave at the same time. Compressing these moves would work effectively because Mesprit has a strong enough SpA stat to support the power drop with discharge (and since it's STAB with this new change, it would be even stronger than thunderbolt before changes). Mesprit suffers miserably from "four moveslot syndrome", so this would allow people to get significantly more creative with the fourth move.

tl;dr Mesprit acquires electric type as a second typing and can learn discharge to further Mesprit's great role-compression and versatility.
 
some good discussion! i hadn't thought of adding a steel typing but that would be p great for it, even among the other psy-steels.

today's mon is... cradily in gen 5!
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cradily is an interesting case to me; it has some decent defensive utility and can function as a nice mon on sand teams for certain rain mons, although it has some difficulties switching into coverage like Ice Beam or Secret Sword from specs toed or keldeo respectively. it also has difficulty dealing with hazard setters such as ferrothorn and skarmory, and it's somewhat matchup reliant because its primary niche is being able to take on rain teams and can otherwise not contribute as much otherwise. so...how can we ever fix cradily?
 
+ Regenerator
+ Spikes

So, Cradily is a VERY passive Mon with a weird ( and quite Bad for a defensive Mon) typing. Now it will be the same passive Mon with Weird typing that at least is inmortal and that sets both Hazards. For its appearance both aditions fit Cradily. Add a Curse ( yes, I am serious) Hippowdon and a ghost ( Jellicent is the best one) and you have a really annoying core.
The typing might be Bad, but thanks to Regenerator and Sand, Cradily is able to switch into Latios, Heatran, most Hydreigons and Focus Blast-less Thundurus-T among other threats.
 
I really like Cradily, especially enjoyed using it in Gen 4 when Sandstorm was hyped with the SpD boost. Always enjoyed using it for Stealth Rock setting or walling out threats. I think it would be interesting if it got Baton Pass, though. As a Pokemon with Suction Cups, it feels like it would be a funny tech choice in the teams. Passing Rock Polish to teammates while sustaining boosts due to anti-phasing would be cancerous as hell, but hilarious at the same time.

I'm in agreement with Eeveeto's idea too, although Sand Stream would be cool too since it makes some of the best use of the boosts.
 
today's pokemon (after a long hiatus...) is crobat in gen 6!
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i haven't played gen 6 in a long time, but i remember that when the new defog rules came out that crobat was quite hyped from the get-go. it was fast, had plenty of great support moves, and wasn't taunt bait, yet it just never quite took off. how would you fix crobat in ORAS?
 
Steel-types currently wall it indefinitely, so two possible changes come to mind:
+ Earthquake, Fire Fang; you’d mostly use EQ but Fire Fang gives you a way to hit Skarm. Pretty boring, though, and I don’t think this would be enough to “break” it.

more creatively:
+ Corrosion

Having corrosion, the Salazzle-line ability that lets you toxic Steel- and Poison-types, would be huge for it. Fast Taunt + Corrosion toxic, recovery, and a strong Brave Bird would make it an extremely potent stallbreaker.
 
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