VGC Blue Squad Mark III: Dialga-Kyogre Done the Japanese Way

Draconid997

Draconid997

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Hey its Draconid here with another RMT :D
This is my way of saying thanks for my shiny new Rater Badge, so i hope you enjoy
(This was also going to be saved for my 300th post but nah)

So I thought i might incorporate gengar-crobat into the newly forming dialga-kyogre archetype after all the recent hype about both of these strategies, and it really works

Here's my theory:
- Dialga-Kyogre is essentially a more bulky/methodical version of Rayquaza-Kyogre
- It has a much better matchup against RayOgre and a slightly worse matchup against Primal Groudon
- By putting Gengar-Crobat onto the team, Dialga and Kyogre have a much better matchup vs the big 6, especially Xerneas/Smeargle leads, as you may already know. If you don't know what it does, check out Necrocat219's article about it
- The remaining slots were filled with whatever seemed appropriate to boost the matchup vs the top 4 matchup:

Top 4 Matchup
Xerneas - 3 Checks (Crobat(+Gengar)/ Ferrothorn)
Groudon - 2 Checks (Kyogre/Landorus-T)
Kyogre - 2 Checks (Ferrothorn/Dialga)
Rayquaza - 2 Checks (Dialga/Ferrothorn*) (*in rain -> Overheat)

So, onto the team

In Depth

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Dialga @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Telepathy
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 116 SpA / 60 SpD / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Trick Room
- Protect
Role: TR setter, one half of the legendary core. Dialga is amazing in this format with its ability to check RayOgre teams without too much trouble
Item: Sitrus Berry is a great item on dialga, turning 2HKOs into 3HKOs and so on
Ability: Telepathy has great synergy with landorus-t, allowing it to explode without worrying about splash damage
EVs: Mostly focused on bulk, dialga still maintains quite a bit of offense as well as being able to speed creep neutral base 90s
Calcs:
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga: 173-204 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 76 Def Dialga: 68-81 (33 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga: 161-190 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 244 HP / 76 Def Dialga: 170-204 (82.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga: 176-210 (85.4 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 60 SpD Dialga in Harsh Sun: 165-195 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
  • 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 244 HP / 76 Def Dialga: 178-212 (86.4 - 102.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Moves: Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor for repeated use, still it's a pretty decent STAB, Flamethrower for steels and the rest are self explanatory

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Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 204 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect
  • Role: 2nd half of the legendary duo, kyogre eases the matchup against primal groudon and can outspeed slow groudons outside of TR
  • Ability: Rain aids the fire weak mons on the team, mainly ferrothorn, landorus and dialga for the matchup vs groudon
  • EVs: Credit to hydreigone for the spread, the 36 EVs are just for speed creeping base 90's and for outspeeding scarf Lando-T/Mega Mewtwo Y in Tailwind
    Offensive:
    • 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Heavy Rain: 184-217 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 186-220 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    • 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 196-232 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Defensive
    Physical
    • -1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 88-106 (44.2 - 53.2%) -- 18.2% chance to 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Explosion vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • -1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
    • 52 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Helping Hand Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 77-91 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 51-61 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    • 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 152-179 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • -1 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 76-91 (38.1 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 73-87 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
    Special
    • +2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 182-216 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    • +2 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 144-171 (72.3 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 79-95 (39.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 46-55 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 70.7% chance to 4HKO
    • 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 118-140 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 66-78 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
    • 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 49-58 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
  • Moves: Water Spout to OHKO kangaskhan and for massive damage otherwise, scald for by-passing wide guard+the inevitable burn, and ice beam for coverage

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Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 96 Def / 180 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect
  • Role: One half of the gengar-crobat duo, gengar essentially completes its goal, to OHKO xerneas and taunt smeargle.
  • EVs: This is Necrocat219's EV spread, and it is designed to underspeed crobat so that it can hit xerneas once its defences are down, so this will outspeed weavile instead of running max speed
  • Calcs:
  • 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 12 HP / 96 Def Mega Gengar: 114-136 (83.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Moves: Sludge Bomb for xerneas, HP ice for salamence/rayquaza/landorus-t and taunt for smeargle etc

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Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Super Fang
- Haze
- Quick Guard
- Tailwind
  • Role: Crobat fills the second half of the gengar-crobat duo, and is here for haze support against xerneas as well as speed control in tailwind as well as other necessary support
  • Item: Lum allows crobat to beat smeargle a lot more easily, it can haze xerneas through a dark void etc
  • Ability: Inner Focus is a great little ability, it means crobat doesn't get affected by fake out, which infinitely improves its matchup against kangaskhan and all other fake out users
  • EVs: Max speed with enough investment to survive a moonblast from boosted xerneas, 3 moonblasts from unboosted xerneas and a double edge from mega kangaskhan

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Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Explosion
  • Role: Beats most groudon, provides invaluable intimidate support/shuffle (with u-turn) and can explode which is pretty handy as a lead for chip damage vs bulkier teams
  • Item: Choice band improves damage output, although AV is a great option for beating special groudon more easily
  • EVs: Pretty simple, the EVs maximise offensive output, jolly nature for outspeeding all groudons and a 4/252/252 spread doesn't need optimising much imo

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Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
  • Role: Checks kyogre/xerneas pretty well, and rayquaza can be checked by this depending on the set
  • Ability: Iron Barbs is a great ability that allows ferrothorn to check kangaskhan, it also hurts fake out users and is great on a switch in for chip damage
  • EVs: Credit to Jibaku for the spread, this will OHKO xerneas after the geomancy boost, as well as surviving 3 water spouts/dazzling gleams (with leftovers recovery) from kyogre/xerneas respectively
  • Moves: Pretty standard, gyro for xerneas/rayquaza, power whip for kyogre and leech seed for stalling out
Dialga @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 116 SpA / 60 SpD / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Trick Room
- Protect

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 204 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 96 Def / 180 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Super Fang
- Haze
- Quick Guard
- Tailwind

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Explosion

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Thanks for reading, and if you have any suggestions feel free to comment :)

celticpride, Team Pokepals and Ksh13 for congratulating me on getting my rater badge
Sardus21, Pyritie, Psynergy, Steven Stone, Namikaze and Jibaku for contributing loads on my teambuilding frameworks thread which has helped me learn a bunch about this format
IronBullet, for helping me improve my rates
iPRODiGY VGC, for challenging me on a couple of my rates :p
Jake0743, for letting me answer a load of his vgc 16 related questions
 
Fantastic team!

What are your thoughts on using Choice Band over AV? Don't have a ton of experience using him this year. I assume for extra damage against Groudon?
 
Hey Draconid, that's a pretty awesome team there. I especially love your spreads for Dialga and Kyogre. I was wondering about your opinion on Choice Scarf vs Band as when I'm down to my last two pokemon, I've lost Lando a few times to faster Draco Meteors and HP ices before it got a chance to do anything. Is the extra damage needed?
Kudos for all the research and thanks as well for all you've done for the VGC subforum.
 
Namikaze said:
Hey Draconid, that's a pretty awesome team there. I especially love your spreads for Dialga and Kyogre. I was wondering about your opinion on Choice Scarf vs Band as when I'm down to my last two pokemon, I've lost Lando a few times to faster Draco Meteors and HP ices before it got a chance to do anything. Is the extra damage needed?
Kudos for all the research and thanks as well for all you've done for the VGC subforum.
Click to expand...
Scarf vs band is an interesting debate
I would probably say scarf is quite viable, i'm just concious that explosion etc would do considerably less damage so im using band atm but ill definitely try out scarf :) thanks for the suggestion
 
Good point, actually dialga/kyogre are relatively slow, but TR can also be used as anti-TR
Wolfe Glick got first at florida with dialga / kyogre / salamence / ferrothorn / thundurus / landorus-t so this team is largely based on his. TR is also a great counter to RayOgre :) there are probably more reasons but i cant think them up now
 
Thanks for the shoutout mate :) the idea of Crobat+Gengar joining Dialga+Kyogre is brilliant,and the first two are splashable on a lot of teams by my opinion :)
I could even steal your idea lol
Good team!
 
Draconid997 said:
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Damn, son! Where did you find this?
Mkay onto the quick rate.

Dialga - I think flamethrower is outclassed by fire blast, simply because it does more damage, despite the lowered accurecy.

Kyogre - It's a neat-o set you got there, but I think the origin pulse set would do much better, as you don't need to worry about chip damage to do powerful spread damage. It also allows you to run thunder freely, which can be incredibly useful!

Mege Gangar - Yeah, I know how I spelled it! It is my opinion that you should run shadow ball over taunt, (as you are running mental herb and taunt crobat already, and shadow ball is brilliant coverage for your team) and icy wind over hidden power ice, as it not only provides spread damage but it slows the pokemon hit. It's a trick room team, but this team works VERY well regardless if it's up or not (which means you have to really think before setting up TR)

Crobat - Lum berry is fun and all, but I think you should run mental herb as it is more standard, and as most people predict it it's better to run it just in case anyways

Landorus - For your team, an assault vest user would be helpful, and landorus fills this roll AMAZINGLY! Trust me, it works. Banded doesn't really work that well in on it's own. And all you need to change is the EV's anyways, as you are using 4 attacks.

Well those where some of my nitpicks. Seriously tho, tell me where you found that gif that thing is AWESOME!
Here is the finished team: http://pastebin.com/5Ht83Di6
Great job with the team, dude! Enjoy!

 
fat Draconid997 said: ↑
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[/hide]
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Damn, son! Where did you find this?
Click to expand...
Just typed in 'Primal Kyogre gif,' i swear it was near the top

Dialga - I think flamethrower is outclassed by fire blast, simply because it does more damage, despite the lowered accurecy.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Flamethrower is literally just for stuff like ferrothorn that threatens kyogre, and is more consistent damage under trick room, given fire blast's shaky accuracy. Other steels are mainly handled by landorus-t etc. Looking at usage, fire blast isn't in the top 10 most used moves, and flamethrower is used by 32% of dialga. I'll definitely give it a try but i'm not entirely sold on it :)

Kyogre - It's a neat-o set you got there, but I think the origin pulse set would do much better, as you don't need to worry about chip damage to do powerful spread damage. It also allows you to run thunder freely, which can be incredibly useful!
Click to expand...

Yup i will definitely try out origin pulse, but just a couple of things: it misses out on the OHKO on kangaskhan, plus it's much more accurate, given that i don't have gravity etc so it's a little more efficient in TR. Also it doesn't exactly allow me to run thunder more freely since i like the fact that scald can bypass wide guard and contribute to bulk with the burn chance. Thanks for the suggestion though

Mege Gangar - Yeah, I know how I spelled it! It is my opinion that you should run shadow ball over taunt, (as you are running mental herb and taunt crobat already, and shadow ball is brilliant coverage for your team) and icy wind over hidden power ice, as it not only provides spread damage but it slows the pokemon hit. It's a trick room team, but this team works VERY well regardless if it's up or not (which means you have to really think before setting up TR)
Click to expand...

I don't quite see your point here about shadow ball, sorry. I'm not running taunt/mental herb crobat, and i need taunt on gengar for opposing smeargle. I guess another option here is to run substitute over taunt on gengar (to protect from dark void T1 and have taunt on crobat over haze (which is what conan thompson used on a similar team), but i don't see how shadow ball benefits the team, apart from maybe more coverage against steels (but then again aegislash beats mega gengar anyways). Hidden Power Ice is only there to one shot Salamence, but it really is needed imo. Icy Wind being a 2HKO just isn't enough as it can hit you with a Hyper Voice.

Crobat - Lum berry is fun and all, but I think you should run mental herb as it is more standard, and as most people predict it it's better to run it just in case anyways
Click to expand...

Oh right i see, here's what you mentioned before :p
What exactly do you mean by '[mental herb] is more standard'? PGL states that mental herb is only run on 9.6% of crobat (i think red card was the next most popular item) and to compare, lum berry is run on 72.5% of crobat and is crucial for facing dark void smeargle :/
I really don't think people will be expecting mental herb, but i'll give it a try none the less.
As for taunt over haze, as i said i could try substitute over taunt on gengar to test this out, so thanks for the suggestion

Landorus - For your team, an assault vest user would be helpful, and landorus fills this roll AMAZINGLY! Trust me, it works. Banded doesn't really work that well in on it's own. And all you need to change is the EV's anyways, as you are using 4 attacks.
Click to expand...

I think iPRODIGY VGC also brought this up, i'll definitely give AV a go, but i prefer the extra damage output that CB brings. Could you explain what your AV EVs do? I'm intrigued

Anyway thanks for the rate :)
Sorry if i sounded a little harsh on my response but i wanted you to know my thoughts on your suggestions

btw you left 0 Spe IVs on dialga in the importable :p
 
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