Blissey (Healing Wish)

bubbly

Hi everyone. This is a set which I've been testing recently and has worked very well. From memory, Plus made it to the top of the CAP ladder using a similar set.

Okay, I accept this isn't gonna get passed, and KG gave some decent reasoning. It's a very niche kind of role for the set and I suppose for a lot of teams its not going to be a better option than existing alternatives.
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Healing Wish
Move 1: Healing Wish
Move 2: Softboiled
Move 3: Thunder Wave
Move 4: Seismic Toss
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold

Why this set should be on site
-Maintains Blissey's incredible specially defensive properties.
-Suited to offensive or balanced teams due to its ability to maintain momentum for the team (unlike most Blissey) and heal offensive members.
-The main strategy is to do as much damage with offensive pokemon as quickly as possible, while Blissey maintains a defensive backbone; then use Healing Wish to exploit the opponents weakened counters.
-Blissey lacks both Screens, unlike Lunar Dance Cresselia, but has vastly superior special walling capacity, recovery, Natural Cure, and lacks Cresselia's U-turn and Pursuit weaknesses. Blissey is also slower, meaning that it can usually take a hit THEN use Healing Wish, allowing the incoming pokemon to avoid taking damage.

Set Comments
-EV's and nature are standard, and maxed physical defense is necessary to get off a Healing Wish against powerful physical attackers.
-The 3rd and 4th slots are mainly personal preference, and there are a number of other options which can be used there, including Stealth Rock, Toxic and the like. However, Thunder Wave and Seismic Toss provide Blissey's best coverage against threats in 2 moves.
-Needs to be careful of a number of sweepers which can set up if they avoid Thunder Wave. Blissey shouldn't mind taking damage early in the game, so against offensive teams, don't give free turns away by trying to keep Blissey at high HP. Thunder Wave should be the main attack on predicted switches.

Teammates and Counters
-Has problems 1v1 with Fighting types and powerful physical attackers, such as Tyranitar, Taunt Gyarados, Machamp and others, so teammates which can deal with these pokemon, such as Gyarados and Hippowdon, are recommended.
-Incapable of hurting Substitute or Taunt versions of Rotom-A and Gengar unless it hits them with Thunder Wave on the switch, so teammates which can defeat or pseudohaze these pokemon are necessary.
-Offensively and defensively, Dragon Dance Gyarados is one of the best possible partners for this set, benefitting greatly from Healing Wish while also being capable of setting up on many physical attackers which switch into Blissey.


Right, think I got everything. Any suggestions would be great, thanks :)
 
This is a gimmick. As you stated, Blissey is destroyed by many physical attackers and hates taunt. This thing has way too many counters IMO. Have you tested this out?
 
I have, and its not a gimmick, plus you haven't tested it out.

Every Blissey is destroyed by many physical attackers and hates Taunt. However, with max physical defense Blissey can survive almost any physical hit except for STAB'd Fighting attacks. Even Choice Band Dragonite's Outrage, which is the strongest physical attack in OU as far as I know (before set up), isn't guaranteed to OHKO after SR damage.
 
Personally I don't get the point of this set. Why sacrifice Blissey with Healing Wish when you can just use Aromatherapy to heal status for the whole team and then use Wish and switch to the pokemon you want to heal.
 
Noone needs to test this out because this is pointless.Like the above poster said wish is a better option. Also this isnt really necessary if your running a stall team because they all will have some form of recovery anyway.If your running blissey on a offensive team then thats not good in the first place.Its a bad gimmick. Lunar dance cresselia is better because you can run it with screens and most of the time it will be useless late game.Additionally we all know blissey can take some attacks so there is no need to make "blissey the pokemon" the selling point of the set.
 
Want to know why I think it's a gimmick? As many people know, Blissey can use regular wish AND aromatherapy (or heal bell if you have wish), making it an effective cleric without having to sacrifice itself. That's why I think this would be a gimmick and outclassed.
 
Eh, I think this is actually pretty useful at first glance. Plus WAS my tutor back in the day, and actually this doesn't look awful. I think this is a good fit for a balanced team that needs a special wall. Basically, Blissey can function just like it normally would walling shit and blah blah blah. Then, when you feel you're opponent has been weakened enough, you sweep with something TWICE and break through their defenses. Even if this doesn't get its own set (which is possible, considering how similar this is to the standard), it should at least get AC or OC mention. Oftentimes teams needs a special wall like Blissey but don't want it to be sitting on its ass doing nothing, and this does provide it with a purpose. It isn't outclassed at all by Wish + Heal Bell since that requires multiple turns, only heals 50% and takes up two moveslots on a very crammed Pokemon.
 
Smith said:
Eh, I think this is actually pretty useful at first glance. Plus WAS my tutor back in the day, and actually this doesn't look awful. I disagree I think this is a good fit for a balanced team that needs a special wall. Any balanced or stall team appreciates Blissey and no matter how shitty a set you make with it, its still a good Special Wall

Basically, Blissey can function just like it normally would walling shit and blah blah blah. Then, when you feel you're opponent has been weakened enough, you sweep with something TWICE and break through their defenses WishBliss does this just as well except can do it many more times without sacrificing its self. Even if this doesn't get its own set (which is possible, considering how similar this is to the standard), it should at least get AC or OC mention No it shouldn't. Oftentimes teams needs a special wall like Blissey but don't want it to be sitting on its ass doing nothing chipping at the other team with Ice beam/thunderbolt/flamethrower and poisoning/paralyzing the other team and stalling residual damage is sitting on its ass doing nothing?, and this does provide it with a purpose. It isn't outclassed at all by Wish + Heal Bell since that requires multiple turns, only heals 50% and takes up two moveslots on a very crammed Pokemon. Ok its not outclassed to the strict definition of the word but being able to heal teammates multiple times is a much better trade off. In other words "vastly" outclassed.
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Healing Wish isn't that bad, people, and I completely agree with smith on this one about an AC / OC mention at the very least. Having a wallbreaker go on a rampage not once, but at least twice in a game is pretty useful and Blissey is only giving up, what, Heal Bell? (For those who still aren't following along, Healing Wish basically gets a Pokemon in for free, and heals it back up to 100%, which is pretty fucking great for any offensive team) Healing Wish has its uses, and Blissey won't be lose much running it.
 
Look, thanks Smith and Chillarmy, you guys completely got the idea of the set.
Unfortunately no one else did :(

Aromatherapy and Wish are better options on a stall team, because those teams have other pokemon which can usually take out the threats which will set up on Blissey etc while it uses them. Stall is a slow style of play and you have the time to pass Wish and heal status. But on offense or balance, which is where this Blissey is supposed to be used, using the standard WishBliss or ClericBliss would be suicide because you wouldn't have the resources to take down things like Gengar, Gyarados, Dragonite etc etc which will easily set up on Blissey.
I mentioned in the OP, Curtains, why this isn't outclassed by Cresselia. Also, offensive and balanced teams get a lot of help from having a special wall like Blissey on the team; its just that normally it isn't viable for the reasons above. Using Healing Wish removes that problem and like Smith and Chillarmy said, there are a lot of sweepers which can break their counters the first time round and then become unstoppable if they get back to full health like this.
 
I guess something I want to emphasize is, whether or not this is useful blah blah blah...

What are we losing? Ice Beam or Heal Bell or something? Even if this doesn't get a full set (which I wouldn't be against), I think somewhere on the analysis we should say"oh hey also if you think you don't need [filler move], then Healing Wish is nifty". I mean, if people can find room for SR somewhere on a Blissey, a move that is shared by a good 1/3 of the metagame, they can find room for this incredibly rare and useful move.
 
Uh, please tell us WHY you are sacrificing a perfectly good special wall, who is your typical switch into anything remotely nasty on the special side (save a few exceptions) to give one of your sweepers a not-so-good 2nd chance at sweeping (no Screens sucks)??
 
Couple of reasons shrang. First is, Blissey is sacrificing itself late game. If the other guy has a Choice Specs Jolteon or something you can't deal with otherwise, then obviously you're free to keep Blissey alive. If a special wall is necessary to an offensive or balanced team late in the game (which it shouldn't be in most cases) then you have that option. More particularly, Blissey becomes a liability lategame which its dangerous to have in play at all.

Second, you're underestimating the offensive benefits. You obviously aren't disputing that under Screens, Lunar Dance/Healing Wish are useful. One of the best examples is Astamatitos' old team http://www.smogon.com/smog/featured_rmt which uses a Cresselia (although its better to have screens in that example, since both his DD Tyranitar and SD Lucario die too quickly when not under screens). The thing about Screens + Lunar Dance is: its extremely obvious what you're going to do, it leaves the set up pokemon with only one other move (e.g. EVERYTHING can set up on it), often you're at low health and don't have time to set up both Screens and then Lunar Dance anyway. I used to use Lunar Dance Cressy with Thunder Wave in the last slot and literally after Cresselia came into play it would just sit there completely unable to do anything except set up screens and then kill itself, even if it was at full HP. It just hung around getting in the way of attacks and thats it. Having the free moveslots is really useful.
 
bubbly said:
Couple of reasons shrang. First is, Blissey is sacrificing itself late game. If the other guy has a Choice Specs Jolteon or something you can't deal with otherwise, then obviously you're free to keep Blissey alive. If a special wall is necessary to an offensive or balanced team late in the game (which it shouldn't be in most cases) then you have that option. More particularly, Blissey becomes a liability lategame which its dangerous to have in play at all.

Second, you're underestimating the offensive benefits. You obviously aren't disputing that under Screens, Lunar Dance/Healing Wish are useful. One of the best examples is Astamatitos' old team http://www.smogon.com/smog/featured_rmt which uses a Cresselia (although its better to have screens in that example, since both his DD Tyranitar and SD Lucario die too quickly when not under screens). The thing about Screens + Lunar Dance is: its extremely obvious what you're going to do, it leaves the set up pokemon with only one other move (e.g. EVERYTHING can set up on it), often you're at low health and don't have time to set up both Screens and then Lunar Dance anyway. I used to use Lunar Dance Cressy with Thunder Wave in the last slot and literally after Cresselia came into play it would just sit there completely unable to do anything except set up screens and then kill itself, even if it was at full HP. It just hung around getting in the way of attacks and thats it. Having the free moveslots is really useful.
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You keep talking and talking about how useful Healing Wish/Lunar Dance is with screens when Blissey doesn't have Reflect and this set isn't running Light Screen. Yeah I agree that with both Screens up that Healing wish is useful but alas, Blissey doesn't have both Screens. Oh and the only reason people don't "get" the set or should I say agree with you is because it's no good. If you haven't noticed more people are against the set then with it.
 
:) All the people who agree with me give better reasons :) The number of people who agree with it doesn't make much difference either way. alex, I was simply proving that Screens + Lunar Dance was useful to prove that that strategy is sound, and then I gave reasons why no screens is still offensively strong, and also mentioned the negatives of screens. I'm not sure what you're getting so excited about.

You really don't need Screens. Gyarados is a great example again. First time in, lets say you hit their Vaporeon with a +1 Earthquake and get hit with HP Electric in response. You come back later on the back of Healing Wish. You can easily set up on a vast amount of pokemon even without Screens.

Finally, can I point out that the only people who've actually playtested this set have really really liked it?
 
I agree with shrang on this one. Why waste a perfectly good Blissey when you can use it to pass Wishes for many more turns to come?
 
1. Wish takes two turns to use, therefore can be phazed, set up on etc. It is also predictable for the same reason.

2. Healing Wish allows Blissey to take the hit first and THEN pass the healing. With Wish, passing HP often becomes impossible, especially with hazards down, because the receiver takes damage from the opponent before receiving the healing (this is made worse because, especially in the late game, the recipient of a Wish is often extremely obvious).

3.Healing Wish heals full HP, and status, and PP (ya, useful sometimes). Wish heals 50% HP. This is obviously a pretty big difference.

4.Wish necessitates two moveslots, since without Protect Blissey can't reliably heal itself.

To me, those look like pretty good reasons that Wish doesn't outclass Healing Wish.

min min, your objection that its wasting a perfectly good Blissey makes a lot of sense on stall since Blissey is the predominant special wall and most stall teams would fall apart if Blissey was not there. The place of this Blissey is not to stall, its just to insure the team against special offense for as long as its needed and then provide a full heal for an essential member / sweeper etc etc. Again, Blissey doesn't have to faint. It wants to, sure, but if your opponent has a offensive CM Suicune then the simple solution is just to keep Blissey alive.
 
bubbly said:
Also, I think you're overestimating the usefulness of Blissey on balanced/offensive teams, particularly lategame. min min, your objection that its wasting a perfectly good Blissey makes a lot of sense on stall since Blissey is the predominant special wall and most stall teams would fall apart if Blissey was not there. The place of this Blissey is not to stall, its just to insure the team against special offense for as long as its needed and then provide a full heal for an essential member / sweeper etc etc. Again, Blissey doesn't have to faint. It wants to, sure, but if your opponent has a offensive CM Suicune then the simple solution is just to keep Blissey alive.
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You are underestimating the capabilities of Blissey late game. I'm not quite sure what Blissey would be doing on an offensive team. If a team has an objective and a certain play style, then they shouldn't be wasting a slot on a random wall. Furthermore, a Healing Wish set makes this nothing more than comparable to a suicidal lead, which is generally a terrible way to play a Pokemon because they can be useful at any point in a game.

QC Rejected (1/3)
 
Kevin Garrett said:
You are underestimating the capabilities of Blissey late game. I'm not quite sure what Blissey would be doing on an offensive team. If a team has an objective and a certain play style, then they shouldn't be wasting a slot on a random wall. Furthermore, a Healing Wish set makes this nothing more than comparable to a suicidal lead, which is generally a terrible way to play a Pokemon because they can be useful at any point in a game.

QC Rejected (1/3)
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Couldn't have said it better myself. IMO this doesn't even deserve an oc mention.
 
You are underestimating the capabilities of Blissey late game. I'm not quite sure what Blissey would be doing on an offensive team. If a team has an objective and a certain play style, then they shouldn't be wasting a slot on a random wall. Furthermore, a Healing Wish set makes this nothing more than comparable to a suicidal lead, which is generally a terrible way to play a Pokemon because they can be useful at any point in a game.
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Look, I use Blissey a lot. It can be great at stalling late game, I agree, and what I said in an earlier post is incorrect where it contradicts that. This type of Blissey can still stall late game comparably to the Cleric set. You're not losing ANY ability to clean up a team using this Blissey over the Cleric set.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assessment that Blissey should not be used on an offensive team, or especially on a balanced team. Like Smith said up the page, most teams would like to have Blissey just to have that safeguard against special attackers. It's not a "random wall" at all.

Also, clearly this isn't comparable to a "suicidal lead". Blissey helps stop you being swept etc for as long as it needs to. You sacrifice it when and only when you know that its the right thing to do (you might say that it would almost never be the right thing to do, but it actually is in probably ~60% of the battles I've tested it in).
 
I don't see the use of Healing Wish on Blissey; it just takes up a key slot for another support move. Not to mention it gets outclassed by other pokemon like Uxie and Cresselia at setting up another pokemon. It becomes incomprehensible to run Healing Wish on such a backbone for many teams.
 
bubbly said:
Look, I use Blissey a lot. It can be great at stalling late game, I agree, and what I said in an earlier post is incorrect where it contradicts that. This type of Blissey can still stall late game comparably to the Cleric set. You're not losing ANY ability to clean up a team using this Blissey over the Cleric set.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assessment that Blissey should not be used on an offensive team, or especially on a balanced team. Like Smith said up the page, most teams would like to have Blissey just to have that safeguard against special attackers. It's not a "random wall" at all.

Also, clearly this isn't comparable to a "suicidal lead". Blissey helps stop you being swept etc for as long as it needs to. You sacrifice it when and only when you know that its the right thing to do (you might say that it would almost never be the right thing to do, but it actually is in probably ~60% of the battles I've tested it in).
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What kind of synergy does Blissey offer to most attackers? I don't just mean it's Ghost resistance and ability to take special hits. Synergy has a lot to do with type coverage, but it also has a lot to do with functionality. If you are running an up tempo team, the last thing you want to do if give your opponent a myriad of free switches to things Blissey does not harm. Don't lump balanced teams in with offensive teams because I specifically mentioned the latter only.

Let me get this straight. You are proposing someone passes up a chance at finding a heavy hitter with the right type coverage in an offensive team to add Blissey with Healing Wish so that it can switch into special attacks. On the off chance that you don't need to switch into many special attacks, you will just sacrifice that piece to heal another one. Otherwise, Healing Wish is a completely waste move slot. Meanwhile, you have fewer things to switch out to that can handle a Pokemon putting pressure on Blissey because there are numerous things that can come in on it. That does not really sound like the type of team that is good at maintaining an advantage.
 
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