Bide and Double-Hit Attacks

Jellicent

Jellicent

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So, Crystal_'s latest discovery means Double-Kick, Bonemerang, and Twineedle can hit a ridiculous number of times if an ally was KOed while using Bide (though the trick only works once). While that might seem pointless, Bide could potentially be a filler death fodder / mind game move that also boosts a teammate later in the battle.

Double-hit attackers are Jolteon, Hitmonlee, the Nidos, Beedrill, and Marowak. Jolteon is easily the most viable of those and would run Double-Kick regardless of the strategy. A well-timed Bide sacrifice earlier in the match could give Jolt the ability to quickly OHKO the likes of Chansey or GolDon. The major downsides of course are only getting one shot at it, kinda like Explosion without the self-KO, and having to run Bide on something (preferably something fast and definitely nothing with Explosion).

Jynx would probably be the best Bide death fodder if you were going to attempt this. After it's slept something and generally chipped up the opponent's team, it's often pretty beat up and something you're more willing to part with. Going out with a Bide puts your Jolteon is much more favorable position late-game.

Ultimately, though, it just feels pretty gimmicky. I could maybe see the surprise value in a tour setting against someone unfamiliar with this, but even then there's no guarantee. If you were planning on running Jynx + Jolt on your team anyway, or really hoping to make Beedrill work somehow, then it's mostly just a generally worse but potentially nifty 4th move on Jynx that can cause a lot of 50/50s against an opponent that is aware of this trick.

All of that, of course, is if we even want this implemented on the sim (it's not been implemented yet so we could discuss it here first.) This technically results from a desync, so we could loop it under Desync Clause. That said, it doesn't actually interrupt gameplay the way regular desync bugs do; it just adds a funny little mechanic that gives a few mons a new gimmick to play with.

I personally don't think this is worth breaking mechanics and updating a clause over, but I can kinda see why others might, so I figured we should open this up to discussion first~
 
One clarification Crystal_ provided that is useful if you want to use this as a strategy: if you activate this craziness on your team, you can only keep the double-hit-craziness potential in your back pocket until one of your opponent's Pokemon faints (unless you use a variable-hit move or Bide again before that), meaning you have a time window where you've got to use it or lose it. That makes it a bit less flexible and limits your ability to use it properly.

In practice, I envision before you activate this, you'd kind of have to know what your opponent's entire team looks like so you know how to maneuver your double-hitter into position without KOing anything else. Ultimately, this sort of thing is probably only actually useful to revenge kill the Pokemon who killed your Bide user in the first place - since if you revenge kill that Pokemon any other way, you've cleared out the advantage you just tried to accumulate. Granted, reliably revenge killing something from theoretically full health is amazing, but revenge killing is, in practice, probably all it's good for.

ETA: In addition to Jynx, Zapdos is probably a good Bide user for it as well.
 
Some of the Pokemon Perfect folks have been chatting about potential applications. For instance, say you bring a Zapdos that has already taken damage in against a full-health Snorlax Body Slam (or a full health anything, really). You're now in KO range. You use Bide, you get knocked out, and you bring in Jolteon, Beedrill, or Marowak to revenge kill. Even if the opponent switches Snorlax out - to, say, a frozen or sleeping mon - you've still forced their hand and you're guaranteed to take SOMETHING out, at NO cost to your attacker. That's pretty significant.

As long as you make sure you use Bide on a turn when you will absolutely get KOed, your opponent can't really predict it even if they're familiar with the glitch. What's the Snorlax in the above example going to do? *Not* attack you because you *might* have Bide as your fourth? That's too risky. So as a strategy, it can work.

Double Kick, of course, is ineffective against Gengar, and Bonemerang against the Flyers, but Twineedle hits anything and KOs anything - even Rhydon - in a reasonable amount of hits, meaning Beedrill might ACTUALLY have a use. Even if somehow Twineedle didn't KO, the poison activation rate is calculated per hit, so at the very least you've poisoned the opponent, which is kind of hilarious.
 
It'd be interesting to see how this affects Ubers as well. If you paralyze Mewtwo, then use Bide and sacrifice a mon to it, Beedrill can OHKO Mewtwo (even +6 Defense Barrier Mewtwo with just 21-25 hits) or anything that switches into it. Moltres, the strongest 4x Bug resist, can be KO'd with a 77 or higher hit Twineedle.
 
hahaha nice catch Crystal, now stop ruining rby ;__;

I would love to try this stuff before posting 'bout it, so if we could implement it in a different rby ladder, it would be awesome :O
 
To circle back to Jellicent's original point: even though it is technically the result of a desync, it doesn't actually break the game like most desyncs do, since both players can continue to battle to a natural conclusion. I would see no reason not to implement it, but I also totally understand why you wouldn't (a desync is a desync is a desync, regardless of how significant). I don't know which way I'd "vote" yet but I am enjoying the discussion and brainstorming. RBY is the best. And Crystal_ is amazing for keeping it relevant and ever-evolving haha.
 
Twineedle's poison chance only applies to the last hit (un)fortunately. It calls the poison function when all the hits have been landed.

Note that Bide lasts 2-3 turns and the Bide user doesn't necessarily have to faint on the very first turn; fainting before unleashing damage is the only requirement. Maybe this can lead to mind games where if you kill the Bide user you get a super double hit move next, while if you don't kill it you take twice of whatever damage you dealt to the Pokemon from Bide's actual effect.
 
what happens if you fp on the turn that bide is supposed to unleash damage?
edit: or get frozen/slept
 
Isa said:
what happens if you fp on the turn that bide is supposed to unleash damage?
edit: or get frozen/slept
Click to expand...
The moment you get fully paralyze or hurt yourself due to confusion, the Bide sequence ends and the address is properly set to 2. Being fast asleep or frozen doesn't advance the Bide turns counter (so you're still storing energy).
 
To me it doesn't matter if it's a desync:
if it's a game mechanic that does not break the game (i.e. make it unplayable) and furthermore is not even broken then it should be allowed.

Also if you count STAB, the highest effective BP move in the game is now a 19125 BP Marowak Bonemerang, 255 hits x STAB bonus x 50 BP = 19125 effective BP.

This could be really awesome too for beedrill in lower tiers :D

Also, best bide fodders based on relatively free moveslot + relatively high speed + viability in OU/Ubers are mainly Zapdos / Articuno / Jynx / Persian, and maybe Rhydon and Dodrio too.

I think it makes double electric less risky (being able to force the hand on one turn with Bide zapdos + a Jolteon would at least force something to go down), and Jolteon + any of those other three all seems in the realm of possibility (Articuno likes Jolt checking Starmie, Persian+Jolt is 2 fast attackers, I've run them together before, Jynx + Jolt + Big 4 sounds perfectly fine, kind of like Jynx + Zapdos + Big 4 that was popular early last year)
 
Used the exact same setup than on this video without doing any battle beforehand.

Also wD074 is initialized to 0 when the battle starts, not 2, and if Bide's stored damage is stored in wD074 too, 17 damage would be stored like this: 0x00 0x11, not 0x11 0x00

Thanks to delving into this, I'm finding weird things. Gosh is the Bide move utterly glitched (but still useless). I'll make a comprehensive post in the research thread once this thing with bide and double hit attacks is sorted out.
 
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