Berry Juice

Celestavian

Celestavian

Smooth
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As of BW2 LC, Berry Juice is the only held item to ever be banned from Little Cup. Not even the ubiquitous Eviolite has been good enough to get the banhammer! Berry Juice restores 20 HP whenever the Pokemon holding it drops below 50% health. At first glance, you might wonder how a 20 HP boost could possibly be broken. For starters, there aren't that many Pokemon with an HP stat greater than 25, and the average is around 22, so that 20 HP is basically a free pass back to 100% health. Gen 5 brought us the new and improved Sturdy, which means that Pokemon such as Dwebble that can have 21 HP or less are basically able to have Sturdy activate twice in a row without fail (where its little brother Oran Berry falls short). Finally, the hugely buffed Knock Off is expected to make one-time use items a lot more popular, since Eviolites are so easily knocked away. With all this going for it, Berry Juice is looking like it will be a force in the metagame.

Here's some of the sets that are expected to be useful:

Dwebble @ Berry Juice
Trait: Sturdy
Jolly / Adamant Nature
236 Atk / 236 Spd
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake

With this set, Dwebble can become an absolute monster that you can't revenge kill until it takes a hit from somewhere else. The idea is to use Shell Smash the first turn while the opponent tries to hit you. If they deal enough damage to activate Berry Juice, you will be instantly healed to full health, allowing Sturdy to be used again. Now, with +2/+2 attacking stats, Dwebble is free to start sweeping without fear of being knocked out by a revenge killer. Rock Blast is preferred to break Focus Sashes and other Sturdy users (especially opposing Dwebble), but Stone Edge hits as hard or harder over 80% of the time.
X-Scissor gives Dwebble secondary STAB to hit targets such as Bronzor and Lileep harder than Rock Blast. Earthquake hits Steel-types super effectively, preventing Dwebble from being walled by them. This set has problems with bulky Fighting-types, which Dwebble has no moves to hit them with besides a nonSTAB Earthquake.

Tirtouga @ Berry Juice
Trait: Sturdy
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
84 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 180 Spd
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet

Tirtouga can also pull off a Double Sturdy set with Shell Smash. It differentiates itself from Dwebble with priority Aqua Jet, meaning that it is possible to set up 2 Shell Smashes easily while only fearing Fake Out and ExtremeSpeed. Unlike Dwebble, who can be revenged by priority and therefore prefers to sweep with one Shell Smash at full HP, Tirtouga outspeeds all priority users after 2 Shell Smashes, allowing it to use the second Sturdy to set up another one. Waterfall and Stone Edge are its two best STABs to use, and with 2 Shell Smashes behind them, they are extremely fearsome. Aqua Jet makes Tirtouga unafraid of Mach Punch and Sucker Punch, meaning it can sweep unhindered if the enemy has a Murkrow or a weakened Timburr. As I mentioned before, it's likely that Tirtouga doesn't have much health left because of its now-halved defenses, so Fake Out users, even though the move is resisted by Tirtouga, can stop its sweep if its at low health. Hail, while likely to be rarer due to the weather nerf, also messes up Titrouga by breaking Sturdy.

These are only the Pokemon that I've seen using Berry Juice, so there's definitely more that could benefit from having a 20 HP boost. What have you guys found success using Berry Juice with?
 
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berry juice is the best item right now.

really this is my item mindset:
  • if it uses acrobatics as a sweeping tool use flying gem
  • if it has bulk + recovery use eviolite
  • if it really wants life orb give it life orb
  • if all else fails just use berry juice because it makes anything better
seriously berry juice is best generic item to use. it just makes any pokemon harder to kill.
 
Your current EVs for the Dwebble set give it an HP stat of 22, which prevents Berry Juice from bringing it back into sturdy range. You want at most 21 HP, which means just leaving those leftover 36 EVs floating, as they do not boost Def or SpD stats.

I'm currently trying out 20 HP Dwebble (done by lowering the HP IV to 19), because if my opponent sets up SR, I would then only have to switch into SR twice to bring myself back into Sturdy range via Berry Juice, instead of three times if I have 21 HP. However, that one extra HP could come in handy for something, so I'm not sure if it is a good trade off.
 
so berry juice is literally the stupidest thing in this game right now. like any pokemon without reliable recovery should DEFINATELY run this over eviolite because honestly this is so much better. i basically wouldve lost a game to briyella if i didnt have berry juice cause i was reading the stupidly obvious predictions but i just won because berry juice made all those predictions trivial as i went to full life like nothing happened. its really stupid and needs to die lol.

al its not a good trade off.
 
there's a reason lcf banned/planned to ban berry juice originally (was it even out in gen 4 sadly i cant remember back that far). a reset button isn't fair and the increased use of a buffed knock off was a step in the right direction for lc, removing the pretty much broken eviolite as a factor. this items undos that with an ability to "reset" a mon and to dish out hits longer than they should have
 
kd24 said:
there's a reason lcf banned/planned to ban berry juice originally (was it even out in gen 4 sadly i cant remember back that far). a reset button isn't fair and the increased use of a buffed knock off was a step in the right direction for lc, removing the pretty much broken eviolite as a factor. this items undos that with an ability to "reset" a mon and to dish out hits longer than they should have
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Yes it was kd. Remember Gen vs SDS for banning it? Then I made Gen fight me and used Dual screen and 5-0'd him with Bagon.

There's no longer such thing as 2HKOing with Berry Juice unless you cleverly avoid it. It's so much HP for lvl 5 cute mons.
 
Since Knock Off is such a common move now for LC, will Berry Juice end up staying in the long run?
I know we're not supposed to talk about bans and such, but I'm just curious on what others think. I'm new to the whole competitive scene, so sorry for the noobish-ness. Little Cup interests me. :D
 
knock off does not really stop berry juice most of the time if you just play around it its kind of obvious which pokemon have knock off so you just dont switch it in on those pokemon until your berry jucie is gone

and yeah dont talk about it blarajan will get mad :(
 
Since most LC mons have ~22/23 HP, Berry juice can essentially gives them near double bulk. (because with berry juice factored in, they can have 41/42 HP)
Under optimal conditions (you getting down to 1HP when BJ activates, it's definitely superior to Berry Juice. However, take a hit doing 55% and you find yourself only healing ~12 HP with Berry Juice, in which case Eviolite would've done nearly the same thing.

tl;dr when factoring out OHKO's, berry juice is always better than Eviolite, because it essentially gives a 1.9×-1.6× boost to HP

BUT Eviolite allows you to take many hits that would KO you with Berry Juice. (Fom Full HP, any hit dealing 66.7-100% with Eviolite would OHKO you if you had Berry Juice) Eviolite is also good on Pokémon who can recover health naturally, be it via Regenerator, instant recovery or draining moves, because it gives them a much better natural longevity. The 20 extra HP isn't that big of a boost when you're taking a lot of hits and recovering (to be precise, on any mon that would take more than 40HP damage factoring in recovery etc, Eviolite is ALWAYS better)

tl:dr there are times when eviolite is better.

When weighing these pro's an cons, i really don't think BJ is 'broken' in any way. In fact, the team i peaked #2 with (22-2) had 0 Berry Juice users.
IMO, X is not broken when you can (nearly) reach the top of a ladder where everyone uses X, without using X yourself
 
Chieliee said:
Since most LC mons have ~22/23 HP, Berry juice can essentially gives them near double bulk. (because with berry juice factored in, they can have 41/42 HP)
Under optimal conditions (you getting down to 1HP when BJ activates, it's definitely superior to Berry Juice. However, take a hit doing 55% and you find yourself only healing ~12 HP with Berry Juice, in which case Eviolite would've done nearly the same thing.

tl;dr when factoring out OHKO's, berry juice is always better than Eviolite, because it essentially gives a 1.9×-1.6× boost to HP

BUT Eviolite allows you to take many hits that would KO you with Berry Juice. (Fom Full HP, any hit dealing 66.7-100% with Eviolite would OHKO you if you had Berry Juice) Eviolite is also good on Pokémon who can recover health naturally, be it via Regenerator, instant recovery or draining moves, because it gives them a much better natural longevity. The 20 extra HP isn't that big of a boost when you're taking a lot of hits and recovering (to be precise, on any mon that would take more than 40HP damage factoring in recovery etc, Eviolite is ALWAYS better)

tl:dr there are times when eviolite is better.

When weighing these pro's an cons, i really don't think BJ is 'broken' in any way. In fact, the team i peaked #2 with (22-2) had 0 Berry Juice users.
IMO, X is not broken when you can (nearly) reach the top of a ladder where everyone uses X, without using X yourself
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Chieliee very solid statement, but there are some exceptions. What about EMs very successful RMT from little cup stage three, it didn't have meditite, gligar or carnavah. Did that prove that those mons aren't broken, no because as you saw those mons were banned. Also this ladder is in a very premature and testing state, so doing well now is not as effective as doing it when the metagame settles down and we start seeing better teams overall. Seriously though I see people using gen 5 teams that don't even know about the unbanning
 
Quite honestly, Berry Juice hasn't been as "broken" as I expected it to be, and I think that the fact that it competes with Eviolite for "best LC item" makes it worth keeping around.

The downside of Berry Juice is that it doesn't prevent OHKOs, as Eviolite often does. I can't tell you how many Swirlix sets I've faced that confidently tried to set up on my Honedge, only to be taken out FROM FULL HEALTH by a single Iron Head (I'm sure the same would work with Pawniard or anyone with STAB Iron Head).

Sturdy+Berry Juice is annoying, but it's predictable, and the way to get around it is to hit once with a move that does less than half before finishing the job, thereby bypassing both Sturdy and Berry Juice.

I know we're not to discuss potential bans, but IMO, I see plenty of things in this meta more broken than Berry Juice right now.
 
When using Knock Off on a Pokémon holding Berry Juice, will Knock Off's effect take place before Berry Juice's, should the foe's health go down into Berry-ingesting range?
Somewhat related as well- from what I've been told, Unnerve prevents Berry Juice's consumption. Would Litleo have soemwhat of a niche in running Unnerve, given its above-average speed and Special Attack, and higher bulk than Growlithe (not counting Intimidate)?
Of course, Growlithe has Morning Sun for recovery... But still, Litleo has that nice Ghost immunity, and I've been considering just how viable it might be when paired with the right teammates.
 
Knock Off takes place before berry juice, so if a pokemon holding berry juice is hit by knock off and goes below 50%, they won't heal.
Unnerve only works on berries, and berry juice isn't a berry, so unfortunately it won't work on berry juice.

Berry Juice is amazing on Munchlax, it really is. In gen 5 munchlax was already pretty decent, it just wanted recovery so badly. Berry Juice and Recycle made its survivability skyrocket. It's no Slack Off obviously, but it does help a lot. Munchlax is reallyyyyy good right now, as well as Sturdy Magnemite with Berry Juice. I've seen Recycle Bronzor once or twice, and it caught me off guard so it might be worth trying it out. I think Munchlax pulls it off better on paper though.
 
Corkscrew said:
pretty sure swirlix's flamethrower is a solid KO on honedge though
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My Honedge has never been taken out by a +1 Swirlix Flamethrower. It always survives with 1 or 2 HP. I'll put up some calcs when I can, but I suspect this is not min damage.

Also, I tend to run Sticky Web on my team, so Honedge will often outspeed.

Edit: Calcs say I've been exceedingly lucky.

Modest +1 Flamethrower is a guaranteed OHKO; Timid does 20 min (out of 21). Calcs suggest it might be worth it for me to modify my Honedge set...
 
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204+ SpA (custom) Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD (custom): 16-20 (76.19 - 95.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Honedge is guarenteed to win that encounter.

EDIT: I know that Honedge is screwed if it comes in on Calm Mind, but Berry Juice will heal it back to full health, letting it tank a second Flamethrower before smacking Swirlix with Iron Head. Perhaps it's not ideal, but at least Swirlix is dead.
 
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Corkscrew said:
in a 1v1 situation but it can't switch in because a +1 flamethrower will take it out.
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That's why you don't wait for it to set up before you switch. Now, if your opponent predicts the switch and Flamethrowers on the incoming, then you're hosed unless Sticky Web is up or you run some weird speedy Honedge set.

At this point, this has gotten RIDICULOUSLY off-topic. The point is simply that physical steel OHKOes Swirlix and bypasses Berry Juice. That was all.
 
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