Be Aware of the God

[Mysterious Trainer]

Religion. For centuries it has divided nations of men. We all know there is but 1 truth. A prophet, a man who speaks the holy truth. Muhammad, Moses, Hey-Seuss, Buddha, that Mor(m)on LDS prophet. What's the difference, really? There is no difference. The son of man is the SUN of man. One who brings light (light is so good, nothing beats it, not even the dark) to all. So what do you, not-so-lowly people of Smogon believe to be true? The bible is one of the few religious texts that does not contradict others. In fact, when you open your eyes, you'll see these people were all based on the same person. And I am king, but enough about me. What're YOUR beliefs, non-religion encompassing? Or perhaps, truth is all just atheistic nothing.

this is a thread to discuss the very idea of religion itself. Are all religious people worshipping the same god? Do they all share the same afterlife?

 

[DM]

Okay everyone, check this out: I wiped the slate clean on this thread, so we all get a second chance to make it not fucking shitty! I understand there are trolly elements in the OP, but we will ignore those and make something out of this previously dire shitstorm.

I left my previous posts as a launching point. This thread isn't to discuss Christianity v. Judaism v. Islam v. etc., this is a thread to discuss the very idea of religion itself. Are all religious people worshipping the same god? Do they all share the same afterlife?

Now. Try again.

 

[Mailman]

It's human nature to find comfort in the idea of afterlife, since after all dying into nothingness is difficult to even comprehend. However the idea of a God does not necessarily emerge to fill this void. Ancient Norse culture does not even believe in an infinite afterlife, rather an inevitable doom is approaching where the force of evil will triumph. In Greek and Roman religions most people do not even reach a pleasant afterlife, rather their soul wanders aimlessly through the fields of death through all eternity, unless they have done great heroic actions while alive. Gods in primitive cultures just sought to explain basic occurrences in nature: Why it rains, why it doesn't, where does lightning come from, and ultimately, where do we go when we die? Of course by the nature of the question it will be impossible to answer for the remainder of time. This is were religions primarily differ from each other, and realistically enough the most widespread and successful ones are those that happen to provide the most satisfying answer: You'll live happily for all eternity.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

Ive heard a lot and read some about The Law of Attraction. Basically, what it is is saying that whatever feelings you have, you attract more of those things that bring you those things intro your life.

If you don't worry, and are peaceful with people, you will consistently attract things that bring you peace into your life, like a great home, great relationships, great health, and a good job, etc.

Feelings can then be applied to specific things like the image of money, or any other specific thing you want to attract in life. Personally, I don't worry and let my source, or God, which is YOU and everything else flesh everything out for me and create a great life.

My life has improved dramatically since I have done this. I've probably felt better than I have in my entire life, and I am getting a feeling of this knowing all the time. A knowing and an agreement of what I've always thought and others have felt to be existence. One where we are god exploring god's self for all eternity, incredibly powerful spiritual beings that constantly make things better in the world no matter what we do, and really nothing in life iis worth worrying about. Your main priority is to be at peace, and from then on, find things to love, like people, and life, and things, and money, or really anything. Omnipotent and immortal. Sort of like a mish mash of all in my opinion the best things from all religions, things that people have brought back from meditation, things that feel awesome, and things that people have brought back from NDE or LSD trips or stuff like that.

I think that its all one thing. Like a dream, or a thought, made by god, or us and everything, for pleasure, love, and all sorts of other things. Life is a big playground to enjoy for all eternity.


I respect who believe they serve under a god, but I just can't do that. I can't look at anyone as an underling and an inferior, or someone as a superior or an overlord to me. I just can't think that I am here for spiritual growth or to be judged by a higher being, and then sent to either eternal bliss or eternal hell. I believe that we are already in heaven, and that whatever stuff anyone feels is just mild tension to enhance the experience. It's a weird thing, but I think confusion and not knowing and mystery and frustration and things like that are all part of this for flavor, while really not doing anything harmful to us or putting us in harms way at all. Hell, I believe harms way isnt that even harmful. It can only get better from here, I think.

I find myself admiring existence even more every since I've formed these beliefs. What is existence? It's so weird. Things like up and down, or sounds, or colors. What are they at their base, beyond we anything we know? What happened before the universe? I find it impossible now to think that we are just animals who evolved from microbes. I think we are that, but much more, too. I can't be an atheist anymore. There's just something in me that tells me that the thing we live in is pretty fucking awesome, it was because of us, that it lasts forever, that it just keeps getting better and better, and that there is a God. It's us, and everything you see and feel and hear.

Sometimes I find myself diving back into my skepticism, but then I begin to be skeptical of my skepticism and ride the high back to bliss. I honestly feel better than I have ever felt in my life. I can see things and people on the internet that I don't agree with and send them peace and love, and not fear them at all, most of the time.

So yeah, I guess that is what I believe ;) I can't be an atheist anymore. I just can't do it, and I could never ever do it. I've felt and heard to many things to bring me back anymore. Life, or eternity as I like to call it now, is abundant and pleasurable for everyone, including the people you might not believe it is for. Hate doesn't exist. It's just another creative form of love that might bring temporary tension and pain in your life but it's never that bad and that it always gets better.

Life is like spending time with your group of friends. You guys are gonna have a great time, they will annoy the shit out of you, and while it might get a little tense because of the intention, the real intention is to make you laugh and enjoy yourself, and deep down you know its true. And it never ends.

 

[Gabe]

Religion. For centuries it has divided nations of men. We all know there is but 1 truth. A prophet, a man who speaks the holy truth. Muhammad, Moses, Hey-Seuss, Buddha, that Mor(m)on LDS prophet. What's the difference, really? There is no difference. The son of man is the SUN of man. One who brings light (light is so good, nothing beats it, not even the dark) to all. So what do you, not-so-lowly people of Smogon believe to be true? The bible is one of the few religious texts that does not contradict others. In fact, when you open your eyes, you'll see these people were all based on the same person. And I am king, but enough about me. What're YOUR beliefs, non-religion encompassing? Or perhaps, truth is all just atheistic nothing.

The bolded was what I initially had a problem with. That's a subjective view, you can't speak for everybody in the world. Some of us find truth in religious texts, some of us find it in art, some of us don't believe there is such thing, ect.

The concentration of my studies are on literature and philosophy. I prefer to see the Bible as another piece of literature, though I don't think it's terribly interesting. Truth is suspect to time, so the type of creative content I gravitate towards is conscious of this, and does not try to be all-encompassing, because such desire breeds innocuous work desperate to be desired. Passages of the Bible reek of desperation and multiple lapses of logic if the work is attempting to be mimetic of the world we live in and not part of a fantasy universe. You said it does not contradict others, but I disagree with that. Every statement is an argument, the Bible is arguing for the merits of its ideas and necessity to adhere to them. Additionally, the Bible is really just like any other book. Nothing in its content creates such a disparity that it cannot be compared to other pieces of literature; whether one chooses to see it as a collection of fables similar to the ones written by the Brothers Grimm or a testament to ideas like Franz Kafka's The Trial or a story designed to direct your life's decision-making akin to Edith Wharton's The House of Mirth.


It is your decision to view major religious figures as the same person. Again, I disagree with this. Perhaps they all function similarly (which is a weak argument in itself) but to attempt saying they are interchangeable is wholly wrong, they are as different as Jake Barnes is to Jay Gatsby is to Lily Bart; as you are to me and I am to Macle or Macle is to Vader.

Apophenia.

 

[iDunno]

I think it's extremely interesting that every civilization known to man, past and future has some sort of system of religion. It makes me think that no matter how much we try, we will always end up worshiping something let it be god, zeus, the giant spaghetti monster, or our leaders. Hell - there are a lot of atheists I know that worship science as if it's a religion. People just need some sort of ideology to latch onto. Maybe it stems from our instinct to rationalize everything.

Also, The Secret will set us free, TIK.

 

[popemobile]

The bolded was what I initially had a problem with. That's a subjective view, you can't speak for everybody in the world. Some of us find truth in religious texts, some of us find it in art, some of us don't believe there is such thing, ect.

objectively, there is only one truth. that "truth" is the cause (or non-cause, in some lines of thought) that made what we see today and in the past and future, and there are many interpretations of that "truth". Some have more backing than others, some make more sense than others, and that's where the subjective part comes in, but there's weren't multiple ways that everything came into existence, at least in this universe (again, in some lines of thought). Religion is one way to interpret that truth, science is another, art or whatever else are also ways, or you could choose not to interpret anything.

 

[Cartoons!]

Like everything, even deity, the devil's in the details. Depending on how vague you want to be, sure there will be similarities from one religious system to another, just like how you and I have similarities by virtue of us sharing a common humanity. But on the practical plane of existence in which we all live, you and I won't be interchangeable just because we both happen to have two eyes and a mouth.

I think it's condescending to gloss over obvious differences between people's worldviews as 'petty details', especially if they are details of a view you don't yourself hold.

I think the temptation to paint all religions as the same comes from a maybe well-intentioned attempt to bring harmony into this segment of human experience, because the-world-is-chaotic-enough-already-why-do-we-need-more-conflict, but doing so requires a hideously broad brush, and assumes the validity of its own doctrinal truths for no reason in particular (other than pragmatism). If you say the reasons for peace (which you won't have anyway) is enough to justify clinging onto something that may or not be true (the universality of all religions), then you've again made a value judgment made on premises you assume to be true...for no reason in particular...

Can we talk about the Law of Attraction? It's false and has cruel consequences for the millions of adherents of this 'secret' doctrine who are unable to think themselves out of their situation.

 

[iDunno]

This isn't a very difficult concept. Monotheism and Polytheism are not the same thing. Have you ever compared the Greek gods to the christian god?

A lot of religions don't even have an 'afterlife.' Are you trying to come up with some generalisations you can make about religion?

There may have been a thread here under the incredibly iffy opening post, but deleting all posts except for your own and then editing in some responses to some posts which are now out of context is not the way to go about it.

I think a thread as on outlet for people to explain their beliefs is fine (hell, even a thread to discuss similarities among religions is fine), but don't start putting your words in others' mouths and direct us onto nonsense.

The reason why religions are similar is that they rationalize their surroundings and assume there is/are creator(s) of all things. Most also do have theories on the 'afterlife'. Each religion isn't a unique snowflake. They each have core similarities that can be discussed. Why is it absurd to have a thread on religion that neither takes sides on anything nor devolves into an absurd flamewar where both sides spew shit out of their mouths?

 

[mattj]

Muhammad, Moses, Hey-Seuss, Buddha, that Mor(m)on LDS prophet. What's the difference, really? There is no difference.

Some have been mentioned, but the differences between these faiths are innumerable. The only people who believe there are no differences, or that the differences are minor, don't know much about any of the religions being compared.

 

[DM]

This isn't a very difficult concept. Monotheism and Polytheism are not the same thing. Have you ever compared the Greek gods to the christian god?

Monotheism and polytheism are just subsets of theism in general. And that is my point: believing in one god or many gods is still belief in a higher power. Each religion may define that power differently, but the overriding idea remains.

A lot of religions don't even have an 'afterlife.' Are you trying to come up with some generalisations you can make about religion?

Yes, exactly. It was an attempt to jumpstart a useful conversation.

There may have been a thread here under the incredibly iffy opening post, but deleting all posts except for your own and then editing in some responses to some posts which are now out of context is not the way to go about it.

Too bad. Deal with it.

I think a thread as on outlet for people to explain their beliefs is fine (hell, even a thread to discuss similarities among religions is fine), but don't start putting your words in others' mouths and direct us onto nonsense.

There have been some pretty good responses so far. Why don't you try adding something instead of complaining.

 

[mattj]

I don't necessarily think this is a terrible idea for a thread, but I definitely do disagree with the OP's position. Some people like to say that the differences between religions are minor but essentially they all teach the same thing. But in my own study I've found the exact opposite to be true. The differences between religions are quite large and important, especially to the people who practice them. The only aspects of some, but not all, religions that are somewhat similar are quite minor.

If you made a Venn diagram, with what each of the world's major religions teach being circles, you wouldn't find that they all overlap nicely, not even in a single area. Some religions do have some, often superficial, similarities. But even those aren't universal. What you would find is that several groups of religions such as the Abrahamic religions and the Eastern religions do happen to share ideas within themselves. Which isn't news to anyone who studies world religions, because most of those religions share founders and texts. But religions from different groups wouldn't really overlap each other much, if at all. And as a point of fact, they wouldn't all overlap in any single area.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

this is a thread to discuss the very idea of religion itself. Are all religious people worshipping the same god? Do they all share the same afterlife?

This should be put in the OP or something, or at least bolded, its incredibly hard to find out what the hell this thread is about.

There are several angles you can take on this topic. The most logical is sort of a quazi response that they do have some underlying similarities, but have branched out to far to be relate-able over time.

If you start out looking at homo-sapiens before they left africa, there are indeed traces of religious relics and the burying of the dead. Our cousin, the neanderthals, also may have buried their dead and had relics, but they were far less sophisticated than ours. The origin of worship seems to have come some time after homo-heidelbergensis who did not bury their dead.

The origins of this belief are hazy, but they may come back to essential human questions that we have today like were do we come from, and what happens after we die, that appeared once we were smart enough to think of them. So its likely that all faith can in fact be traced back to some sort of primitive tribal faith.

Once homo-sapiens appeared, and after we started spreading though, the faith evolved with the new environments and over time. You can draw parallels between native American faith and Aftican faith, but at the end of the day their are stark differences. These changes were amplified once religion became main stream after agriculture. For example in Mesopotamia, nearly every city worshiped their own God who may or may not be related to the surrounding Gods, depending on what the high priest wanted them to think for his own reasons.

Monotheism is just a Mesopotamian sect that gathered a lot of followers. The origins of it are quite clear by an anthropology standpoint, Zoroastrianism or a similar religion was the forefather for monotheism. The benefits of monotheism are quite clear, less gods to pray to, meant fewer idols to make, and you seemed opposed to the popular monotheism which made you look cool and people followed you. Monotheism slowly grew until the Jews got hold if it and kept it, and I am sure you know the story of Jesus and Mohammed, blah blah blah, and then monotheism became the major religious group of our world.

Basically, all the religions obviously do have undertones of similarity, but outside of our 3 big religions that dominate the world today, which all stem from the same place, other religions are simply much more separated because of time and distance.

 

[TheValkyries]

Why is it absurd to have a thread on religion that neither takes sides on anything nor devolves into an absurd flamewar where both sides spew shit out of their mouths?

Because posts like this:

Some have been mentioned, but the differences between these faiths are innumerable. The only people who believe there are no differences, or that the differences are minor, don't know much about any of the religions being compared.

Immediately we're set up being told (by a religious person) that the religions going to be examined are too different. From this point onward any disagreement is practically a personal attack, or an egregious misunderstanding of the religion. This is why we can't have objective discussion. People aren't going to be objective.

This isn't to call out MattJ all that much (I don't actually think he's going to be as close-minded as I'm making him seem), this is just a comment on the attitude towards religious and beliefs conversation as a whole. Those who are religious simply cannot be objective about criticisms of their faith.

Monotheism and polytheism are just subsets of theism in general. And that is my point: believing in one god or many gods is still belief in a higher power. Each religion may define that power differently, but the overriding idea remains.

Polytheism is uniformly about a reverence and respect of nature, generally (I mean REALLY general) with the Sun being the leader of the Pantheon in farming cultures (Shinto, Egypt, most European Pagan Religions, etc.) and the god of Storms the leaders of the seafaring cultures (Viking, Greek, etc.). It's not exact, but generally whichever personification of nature impacts the followers the most is the leader. The sun is massively important in signifying the seasons, planting and harvest time, whereas the god of storms dictates the movements of the Ocean. I mean this is really rudimentary analysis, and there's more to it, but generally these religions are a reverence for nature and its importance and impact on their daily lives.

Monotheism, while finding root in many pagan polytheistic religions (Jesus's parallel story to most every sun god is hardly coincidence), and the Monotheistic Religions at the very least borrowed many Pagan Holiday traditions, if not borrowing the whole Holidays. That said, the majority of the Monotheistic Religions delve more into morality than the Polytheistic Religions ever did. And the morality issues are largely where they separate themselves. Technically speaking the big three do worship the "same god", but they definitely claim that his teachings have differed.

Now if you're going to try and ask if all religions worship the same god period, then you're delving into major weed discussion "What if there was a higher power, man, and everyone worshiped him, but like, all the religions were just worshiping a different part of him, man?" It's purely speculative and not any serious conversation can be had about it.

 

[TruthPains]

Humans fear mortality, and they didn't have much technology, so they made up stories of afterlives being paradises, very contradictory paradises. I believe that after you die, there is, simply, blankness. sort of like what happens when you sleep without dreaming.

If there is truly a deity, a creator, then yes, I think all religions would be worshiping the same one.

 

[DM]

Now if you're going to try and ask if all religions worship the same god period, then you're delving into major weed discussion "What if there was a higher power, man, and everyone worshiped him, but like, all the religions were just worshiping a different part of him, man?" It's purely speculative and not any serious conversation can be had about it.

Haha, that's actually what I'm hinting at, yes.

 

[Cartoons!]

If there is truly a deity, a creator, then yes, I think all religions would be worshiping the same one.

So you believe people generally gravitate towards the truth? Doesn't this conflict with your worldview as a naturalist standing against a humanity that is and has been predominantly religious?

(Jesus's parallel story to most every sun god is hardly coincidence)

This tired argument has been refuted for forever now. Here is, I guess, the latest rebuttal in digital form.

As far as the origin of monotheism, it didn't have a 'beginning' anymore than any fact of life has a beginning only when we discover it. The Jews never claimed to have invented the idea of a 'one true God', but that the concept had been around before Abraham (see Melchizedek, or Job), and that polytheism or nature worship was the result of our natural human tendency to deny God.

I know most of you don't believe the bible, but I'm saying it squares with humanity's historical religious 'arc'.

 

[mattj]

@TheValkyries:

I'm a bit confused. From my point of view, and after doing research into this myself, the conclusion that I came to is that if you are objective, if you look at the words on the page, the things that are taught by each religion, they do not square up. And that the only people who believe otherwise don't know much about the religions they're comparing.

I really, honestly, do not mean any offense by this at all, but your bit about Jesus being similar to various sun gods is exactly what I'm talking about. As Cartoons' source makes so plain, if you just glossarily glaze over and overgeneralize both Jesus and any sun god, yes they may seem somewhat similar. But if you look at the words on the page, if you look at what was actually taught, the details, they are, in fact, not similar at all.

Where am I not being objective? It's not about my religion being best. We're talking about comparing what each religion teaches, looking at the words on the page and what is taught, and finding out whether or not it all overlaps or not. If it does it does. If it doesn't it doesn't. In my experience, according to everything I've seen, read, and discussed in person, it doesn't.

 

[popemobile]

So you believe people generally gravitate towards the truth? Doesn't this conflict with your worldview as a naturalist standing against a humanity that is and has been predominantly religious?

people will definitely gravitate towards what they believe is true, and religion usually gets a big head start in that department. From there it's very common to see people hold onto their beliefs even in the face of evidence to the contrary. This is true for all beliefs but is especially notable for religious beliefs due to their prevalence, strength of conviction, and overall influence on the lives of the believers. It's a shame that the most convincing truth from an objective and evidence-based standpoint has such a large hill to climb when people start to be exposed to it, and that aspect of human nature probably explains why religion still has such influence in societies as advanced as the ones we see today.

 

[TruthPains]

people will definitely gravitate towards what they believe is true, and religion usually gets a big head start in that department. From there it's very common to see people hold onto their beliefs even in the face of evidence to the contrary. This is true for all beliefs but is especially notable for religious beliefs due to their prevalence, strength of conviction, and overall influence on the lives of the believers. It's a shame that the most convincing truth from an objective and evidence-based standpoint has such a large hill to climb when people start to be exposed to it, and that aspect of human nature probably explains why religion still has such influence in societies as advanced as the ones we see today.

Not quite what I meant but I like that explanation.

Basically what I was saying in my previous post was that these people are praying to their perception of "god", but while each religion is different, we are still praying to the divine force, a creator.

 

[mattj]

But that's just it. Not every religion prays to a divine force, or believes in a creator.

 

[X5Dragon]

Guide to understanding the difference between the concept of God in Islam, Judaism and Christianity:

Christianity: Trinity (99% of existing Christian sects) One God, three forms: Father (Yaweh/G-d/Allah), Jesus (imposter according to Judaism, Prophet according to Islam, Central Divine Figure in Christianity) and Gabriel (Angel in Islam and Judaism).

Faith is global.

====


Judaism: Yaweh (G-d)

Faith is exclusive to Jewish tribes according to Jewish descendant laws, conversion allowed but not encouraged, faith to other races are based upon Noah's laws but almost always never proselytized.

===

Islam: Allah (God)

Faith is global.

 

[TheValkyries]

@TheValkyries:

I'm a bit confused. From my point of view, and after doing research into this myself, the conclusion that I came to is that if you are objective, if you look at the words on the page, the things that are taught by each religion, they do not square up. And that the only people who believe otherwise don't know much about the religions they're comparing.

I really, honestly, do not mean any offense by this at all, but your bit about Jesus being similar to various sun gods is exactly what I'm talking about. As Cartoons' source makes so plain, if you just glossarily glaze over and overgeneralize both Jesus and any sun god, yes they may seem somewhat similar. But if you look at the words on the page, if you look at what was actually taught, the details, they are, in fact, not similar at all.

Where am I not being objective? It's not about my religion being best. We're talking about comparing what each religion teaches, looking at the words on the page and what is taught, and finding out whether or not it all overlaps or not. If it does it does. If it doesn't it doesn't. In my experience, according to everything I've seen, read, and discussed in person, it doesn't.

Fair enough, again I want to point out that I wasn't marking you as actually close-minded as I made you out to be. I was more pointing out that things like Cartoons said about "Polytheism and nature worship comes from the human tendency to deny god" will be tossed around. That's simply not true in any universe, and is contextualizing other religions in how they are wrong in comparison to his.

I can see I was overly aggressive in my assertion of Jesus's Parallels to Sun Gods (In my defense though, I was given the cliff notes by a friend who must have watched this video, and will blame every misconception on him). Regardless, I still think that it's pretty clear that there is a pagan influence in the modern Christian Religious practices/observances. The Bible itself has contradictions to the idea of Jesus's Birth being in Winter at all, and the fact that many of the traditions and symbols of the holiday are largely of Pagan Winter Solstice origin as well. The Death Rebirth Story is also a real parallel as is observing the rebirth at the Spring Equinox. Certainly, it's vastly general, but when MANY religions have this same parallel, it begs the question "Perhaps there is a larger origin here". If you're holding out for a perfect carbon-copy piece of plagiarism to prove to you of a connection, then I can't give it to you.

As for being Objective about your religion, I agree that Christianity isn't in any way Pagan. It is VASTLY different. You largely touched upon it when you said "The things that are taught". Polytheistic religions don't teach much, and are tied to reverence to nature, whereas Christianity, and the other monotheistic religions largely comprise of Ethical teachings (The Japanese show an interesting case where they have combined their Polytheistic Shinto with the Ethical Teachings of Buddhism to create its modern form of religion without contradicting either branch of ideology). That said, there are mirrored components, and those components aren't mere coincidence. The objective view is to recognize all sides, not to try and say "It's ONLY this, NOTHING ELSE." My point is not that Christianity is Polytheism reskinned, but to deny that there is any influence whatsoever is not an objective view either.

 

[X5Dragon]

I think we should separate religions into two branches:

A) The ones that claim what humanity has been doing for eons ago was completely BS and wrong but that X Religion has come Finally with the true God and true version of human history and creation events

B) Religions that maintain God has been in contact and providing his creatures with faith, laws and Prophets since the very beginning but they keep getting corrupted along the way right until Y religion is the final version because of either choosing a specific race to protect the faith, or faith become global instead of nation specific, etc.


I really have a hard time respecting anyone who belongs to A, I mean what kind of God basically leaves humans running around stuttering and things and then suddenly decides to reveals himself?

tl;dr: Religion on Religion bashing, interesting plot twist, etc.

 

[zorbees]

why are you separating religion into a)monotheism and b)monotheism2