Yeah I agree, though I have no qualms with using unaware as I do think its a good ability. I refuse to debate this though, I will convince no one and I will not be convinced that unaware is good or bad respectively.
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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter Chessking345
- Start date
Nobody's arguing that these mons are "completely terrible" in and of themselves (except for Zama-C; see below). The argument is that Unaware versions of these are, since (especially with Arceus) Unaware is significantly worse than any other ability you can be running; an Arc-Fairy running Unaware is an Arc-Fairy you can't be using for Ice Scales for instance. There's also the problem that Unaware has historically in BH had the issue of just... not doing anything, with options outside of countering setup basically being limited to Spikes or the "cursed three" utility moves (Nuzzle, Knock, U-turn), which are generally pretty good tells that this mon isn't currently doing anything valuable if the set isn't carrying them by default (basically just RegenVest).
Also, Zama-C is gone. You can only access it with Rusted Shield now, meaning it's locked into Rusted Shield and Dauntless Shield, both of which contribute to it being completely unviable.
Atm I'm looking at the tournament data and august high ladder, and I'm seeing something worrisome
From the Tournament there's already 24 "unique teams". Here's what I was able to gather.
Now, the Bad News. The meta is overly defensive. It was even worse before August with over half of teams being stall/semistall. The responsible for this are lots of elements elements:
If that sounds like too much, which I think is more banworthy than Deoxys-Attack, then Lumina crash is an ever better idea. The move is so OP it makes pokémon who were once useless very good, most notably M-Alakazam and regular Deoxys, and forces way too much Covert cloak and defense overload. Seriously, forcing so many teams to have a chansey + Defensive Arceus-Fairy is a huge problem and can lead to way more speed ties and crits than it should.
From the Tournament there's already 24 "unique teams". Here's what I was able to gather.
- The pokémons with over 40% usage are 10 Miraidon, 12 Primal Kyogre, 14 Chansey, 16 Mega Mewtwo-X and 22 Arceus.
- Most Koraidon were Fur Coat, although there were 2 specs Electric surge and 1 Ice scales.
- Primal Kyogre was either AV regenerator or covert cloak Ice scales. Either way it was mostly a support in some way or form.
- Mewtwo does not have a clear set. I've seen Lumina Crash, Strenght Sap, Recover, Close Combat, Psyblade/Psychic Fangs, Knock off, U-turn, Wicked Blow, Flower trick, Combat Torque, High Jump Kick, Chloroblast, Victory Dance, Astral Barrage and Gigaton Hammer. Hability is also largely unclear, although there's somewhat of a preference for Magic guard Life orb.
- All chanseys are Among us players.
- The most common Arceus was Fairy at 7. Then it was ground at 4 (2 repeated), Water at 3, Fire and Poison at 3 with a duplicate and finally, 1 ghost and flying.
- The amount of tuns varied wildly, although it varied depending on style. It could last over 130 turns on 2 semistall teams of two experts, it could last less than 30 in HO. IDK, coming from the UU tour this meta is just much more volatile, although the large skill gaps might also explain things.
Now, the Bad News. The meta is overly defensive. It was even worse before August with over half of teams being stall/semistall. The responsible for this are lots of elements elements:
- Imposter chansey. It's incredibly difficult to setup anything when eviolite chansey can just come from nowhere and is just so bulky, to the point it forces you to run bad Lunalas just to have a 50|50 shot of winning after setting up.
- Strenght Zap. This move is a bit too good of a recovery, having 16 PP and reducing the attack of an enemy. This has to be the least egregious one due to being a momentum drain and incredibly predictable.
- Stone Axe. You might wonder "How a move who puts rocks is responsible for a more stall meta?" Well, hear me out, because there's 2 main reasons. 1°: Is not a status move meaning RegenVest sets can now put hazards, and a way of prolonging the game is with regenerator. 2°: Passive damage is the main way stall wins, so having taunt-proof rocks is a big boom to them.
- Lack of situational nukes. Without Z-Moves or the EV restriction that supertraining allegedly caused, it is quite difficult to break through most walls. The closest to that was Tera, which got banned due to allowing too much non-games in such high powerlevels.
- New Items/Habilities. I'm mainly talking about covert cloak, who allows you to ignore passive damage from most sources, as well as Ice scales and boots from gen 8 and regenvest pivots that ensures it's virtually impossible to break through walls.
- Mega-Mewtwo-X. Is incredibly difficult to justify a lot of offensive pokémon when most of them get outclassed and OHKOd by M-Mewtwo. Victory dance? Mewtwo-X. Mix attacker? Mewtwo. Mewtwo. Offensive Pivot? Mewtwo. Togekiss Cosplayer? Mewtwo although that's more of a mid ladder thing.
- How do you defeat such pokémon who is both incredibly strong, has decent bulk, good attack on both sides, outspeeds 90% of the tier, is very flexible on moves and is immune to passive damage? Simple, to Stall it out... and that's the problem. Mewtwo's main flaw is that its best damaging moves (Wicked blow, Close Combat, Chloroblast, V-Create) only have 8PP, meaning a pokémon with strenght Zap and good bulk can stall it out, most notably Fur-coat Fairy-Arceus with Covert Cloak and chansey, and even that can fail with a lucky crit as I saw during the current tournament. Scouting can go horribly btw due to the existance of Lumina crash .
If that sounds like too much, which I think is more banworthy than Deoxys-Attack, then Lumina crash is an ever better idea. The move is so OP it makes pokémon who were once useless very good, most notably M-Alakazam and regular Deoxys, and forces way too much Covert cloak and defense overload. Seriously, forcing so many teams to have a chansey + Defensive Arceus-Fairy is a huge problem and can lead to way more speed ties and crits than it should.
prior to august BH had the reg dex ruleset, meaning teams built and used significantly different pokemon. stuff like ting-lu and dialga-o has just vanished from usage basically. secondly, what do these stats even show? they're not transparent in how they calc stuff, they're not mutually exclusive, and they're not intended to be calcing these stats for OMs. games are going to go longer in a tier where everything has good recovery and full EVs. stall is also quite possibly the worst it's ever been so this makes zero sense.
in respects to team structures, the 4/2 one that most people seem to be using (imp/fc/scales/regenvest / 2 offensive) is sorta just... the best one, so obviously it's going to see the most use. more stally teams have issues with longevity and their anti-setup options being basically mono-haze, and more offensive teams can only go so far without sacking a good defensive backbone / honestly just struggle to put enough damage on the board in a short amount of time. balance has always dominated bh and this is just another spin on balance that more suits the meta (and is distinctly not semi-stall).
setup has never really been the best way to break stuff this gen and most stuff that has used setup (torch song etern, nasty plot flutter, tidy up groudon) has had a strong way of punishing imp. if you have a setup set that gets farmed by imp, you will lose to imp, in the same way if you have a setup set that does nothing to fairies you will lose to arc-fairy. raw victory dance/bulk up stuff has realistically never been that good at wallbreaking except for the very start of the gen with stuff like ph slaking around. given the stat spreads that full dex has on offer, mixed attackers are simply just better and easier to use, and most of these also have relatively ehh bulk that means they have a natural imposter advantage anyway.
better than everything having 8pp recover and nothing handling phys/mixed attackers with any semblence of security
all three of the things we've banned so far are massive nukes, two of them mixed. it is quite literally the opposite of "its hard to break through walls"; it's so easy to, hence why people are doubling up on fc/regen more than any other time.
most regenvests are 2hkoed by scary attackers; these are utility/momentum tools first and walls third really (having to switch out to heal is not a good sign). most scales mons also aren't opting for boots since they want to be shielded from mortal/lumina.
that is not how you play against mmx. stalling it out is realistically never the option aside from if you're specifically facing a choice band mmx and you have sap fc psnceus. otherwise, it will either win the game faster than you can feasibly stall it out (protean) or will just have too much PP to stall out (magic guard). the easiest ways to play against mmx minimize the amount of time it spends on the field being scary, which is part of the reason mg mmx is so common; you don't have to be scared off by mortal spin (in fact you enjoy being hit with mortal so you can't be parad).
bordering on D rank
i am vehemently opposed to lumina crash still being legal, and the point about cloakspam is very much true, but saying that it hard-carries mzam and deo isn't really the case. lumina is only tangentially related to these, as protean sets can use crash for the -2 spdef and have protean still proc on the follow-up astral barrage or electro drift or w/e. the mons are nowhere near bulky enough to use mg crash in the same way mmx can / mmy could.
Tea already addressed most of these but I did want to talk about these three because I actually came to the thread to talk about them myself and saw your post. I'll also do my best to keep in mind the amount of research and hard work you put in before thinking of what you wanted to put on the forums, but I do apologize in advance if it feels as though the response you're being given on a certain point is disproportionate to what you put into thinking about said point.
Before, I want to mention (to lurkers specifically who don't play much BH, not you Eel bc you clearly have experience with the tier) that the format does inherently have way longer games than standard tiers. It happens when we opt for full EVs, recovery moves and unrestrict bulk monsters like Giratina and Fur Coat. This metagame isn't exactly for everybody, although I do think everybody can more or less find success in it. It's a metagame where the goal of the battle most of the time is to find out what you're working with, what your win conditions are, what the opponent's win conditions are all while trying to progress and stop opponent's progress. It feels way more calculated to me than standard tiers and different other metagames (and I've played a reasonable amount of standard tiers at a high level, so I feel as if I'm allowed to have that opinion.) That isn't to insinuate that standard tiers/other OMs lack calculability or you can just click your way through a game and win every time, but rather when you have a team preview where the only information you're given are the species and level of a Pokemon, you're gonna need to take some more time to figure out how to win as opposed to knowing what movepools and abilities a Pokemon will have (and, in Arceus' case, knowing its item).
I say this to clarify that regardless of what we do to it short of making tiering decisions with the intent of changing the way this metagame is played, BH is (probably!) always going to have a larger length than standard tiers, and not by a small amount either. Shortening the length to the extent of a different metagame is realistically infeasible and would take a while if that were the goal of tiering. I also don't exactly think long games are a bad thing - Not every Pokemon metagame has to have a similar length as another one.
Re: Strength Sap
Strength Sap is absolutely broken in my head. The role compression it provides in a meta where one Sap can heal you pretty much back to full while dissuading physical setup and making it extremely difficult for physical wallbreakers to properly break through teams is too much. However, with the 8 PP nerf, we're in a bit of a weird scenario where Strength Sap is also pretty much the only recovery move granting reliable longevity. With the 8 PP meta, you have to conserve your recovery WAY more reliably. 8 PP is unplayable. If every Pokemon is locked into 8 PP, the games become a competition of who can break through the other team first - which, I'll admit, does fit the flow of battle that you're bringing up, and it's a perfectly fine thing to bring up. But it does have the consequence of heavily axing stall and balance teams and heavily rewarding more offensive teams. Stall is already in a bad place as is, so for me, seeking out to nerf it further doesn't sound good. I'd be heavily on board with a Strength Sap suspect if we were still in 16 PP meta, but right now, I believe taking action on this move would cause way more harm than good.
Re: Stone Axe (+ Mortal Spin and Salt Cure)
I'm packaging these three because I do believe they're all to some extent an issue. I've spent way too long ranting in Tea Guzzler's DMs about how absurd these moves are in my opinion. I'm not gonna talk about these much because I'm fully on board with your side of things, although not exactly for the same reasons. I think Salt Cure specifically is guilty of making progression more difficult considering how spammable it is. It doesn't feel healthy to me at all. Stone Axe and Mortal Spin are less guilty of this, but I do think Mortal Spin is a lot more difficult to block than its Poison type on paper would lead you to believe. Stone Axe also does bypass Magic Bounce - and don't get me wrong, in a Strength Sap meta, you're running Magic Bounce for way more than just hazards - but I do believe that Stone Axe throws the hazard metagame to a point where managing them is sort of this weird mindgame of "am I going to be able to properly remove hazards or do I have to win before I eventually lose to these". I also believe the combination of Salt Cure/Mortal Spin and Stone Axe make item management far tougher.
Re: Covert Cloak
This should also, in my opinion, be less viable (or flat out illegal if it helps with getting the moves above banned). A huge reason of why I feel biased against Stone Axe is because I feel like realistically, there's very little competition for the item slot at the moment. If you're not running an offensive item, you're probably running Cloak unless you're Magic Guard. Centralization in itself is fine, but Covert Cloak being allowed does provide the illusion that Mortal Spin and Salt Cure are manageable. I fully disagree with this. Most teams that set out to use Mortal Spin and Salt Cure properly will also have Knock Off on them. Knock Offs on Covert Cloak Pokemon aren't inherently difficult to get off. Covert Cloak being this good also does have an inverse effect on Boots, because suddenly on switch you're taking damage from Spikes and Stealth Rock. I feel as if the item management in the teambuilder and in the actual game is a net negative on Covert Cloak.
Nothing I talked about is by any means bulletproof, but I haven't felt like Covert Cloak and the three moves I mentioned are getting discussed on forums nearly as often as they should be. I think the tier's in a reasonable place right now, but the last two things are stuff I'd love to see talked about more, perhaps by people on council or who played in OMPL. Right now, I'm basically a 1300s ladder player with two gray badges, so some discussion from people who play at a higher level would be great.
Fillet Away, No Retreat and/or Imprison are also things I wouldn't mind seeing go away, but I don't believe they're broken enough to warrant action at this point in time.
Big Imposter is real, but you didn't hear this from me.
I've been saying this in the past, but apparently "pUttINg CaPS oN ThE hP sTaT Is WaY tOO ComPLIcAtEd oF a BaN ANd OnlY SImPLe BaNs ShOULd bE ImPlemeNTed." I do believe 150 is a good limit for the maximum HP stat for Imposter, I'd even be willing to go up to 200. The problem with HP, Defenses, Speed and maybe even intel is that they do not contribute to general offense in anyway and this is the biggest issue that the council overlooks. If Final Gambit and Body Press weren't Fighting type moves, non-offensive stats would have more consideration. Maximum byte limit HP is fine but 194 Base SpA? Now your overdoing it. The council has historically shown a preference to ban offense as oppose to defense despite them being two sides of the same coin. Imposter is already a low drawback ability that's able to give perfect scouting information, the addition of Covert Cloak complicated this further by reducing trapping methods of countering Imposter on top of byte limit HP. Imposter has way too much going for it.
I've been playing against some double RegenVest, double Imposter teams recents. Given the prominence of RegenVest Steelix in the meta, these teams are incredibly hard to break through as Imposter can just leverage your RegenVest for free healing and effectively cycle infinitely free of cost. I'm struggling figure out how to break through these teams and have reached a dead end. What are the Guzz Tealer's thoughts on reconsidering SAC implementation in BHG9?
Mewtwo is a wildly versatile set capable of being mixed, fully physical or fully special. It can leverage a wide range of abilities and an even wider range of moves. This makes MMX quite similar to Zacian-C before the Pokedex expansion. I'm not gonna re-analyze MMX because it's very similar to Zacian-C which you can read here:
The only real difference is that MMX actually has weaknesses that don't have hard ability counters and the lack of Substitute means that walls are actually able to wall. Furthermore, MMX isn't an absolute speed demon meaning that some Counter's may actually get some hits in. I would be in favor of suspect testing should that occur.
Strength Sap is the glue holding the meta together. Gamefreak please free 16PP recovery.
The usage of Covert Cloak is essentially the Gilded Age of US industrialization in semblance to how everything looks counter-able (shiny and gilded) but in reality it's just hiding the monsters of moves that are Mortal Spin, Salt Cure, Nuzzle, etc. Mortal Spin and Salt Cure are insanely broken moves that can be spammed to spread chip damage with no other countermeasure. The presence of Covert Cloak has allowed this problem to slide under the radar much like how Dire Claw was legal for at least 6 months giving the illusion that everything is okay and that these moves are fine. Covert Cloak is massively centralized and Knock Off is the only counter assuming no Sticky Hold. Personally, I'm experimenting with teams that have 3 Knock Off, 3 Covert Cloak because this meta is going down the deep end anyways.
Shield Dust is an ability that does the same thing as Covert Cloak, which I think is pretty funny. But Covert Cloak essentially stacks Shield Dust on top of all the benefits of FurScales.
Other Thoughts:
I think that the reintroduction of previous generation Pokemon, especially Mega Evolutions was an extremely unhealthy decision by the council. Looking at the stats for legendary and mythical Pokemon as well as gimmicks, Gamefreak has realized they cranked up the power scaling WAY to hard and are toning it back down. This has caused a power shift into more moved-based and ability-based gameplay as opposed to "high BST go brrrrr." Miraidon and Koraidon have a BST of 670 despite being the face of the game but have excellent abilities to back them up. MMX and MMY on the other hand surpass Pokemon God itself with a BST of 780 (
Speaking as a mod rather than a player: the argument isn't "its too complicated for newer players to get" as such, but rather "this adds a pointless threshold that complicates tiering for no reason". Completely setting aside the debate of whether you think Imposter is broken or not, putting a HP restriction opens up a whole other can of worms like "How about we free Huge Power but only on things with below base x Attack?", "How about we free sleep but ban it on everything with setup?", "How about we free Shedinja but it can only run one of Boots / Goggles / Pads depending on the day of the week?", and quite simply "Where do we draw the line", which ultimately ends up being a subjective mess that fogs actually important tiering.
This has been the subject of numerous Youtube videos at this point, but virtually every single council that has ever existed also does this. Banning a Pokemon is essentially a claim that this thing is overbearing and overpowered to where they can't be countered with a reasonable team. This is why stuff like Caly-S and MRay is on the banlist, since it's basically impossible for the conventional team to counter unless they run highly dedicated checks like, say, Meloetta (and just hope you don't run into Normalize Caly-S) that notably underperform into basically everything else. For something defensive to be banned, you're basically saying that "this thing is beyond reasonable to break past and relies on specific answers being brought in order to beat it"; the argument's always been that Imposter falls into neither of these categories, as it simply isn't beyond reason to prep for and break past. Self-proof sets like SNR Ghosts benefit from naturally beating Imposter but are not and have never been necessary to do so.
Speaking more as a player now, I don't really see the need for it in all honesty; if there's anything that it would be used to cut off, it's double Regen or double (insert stupid offensive ability like protean). Double imp structures suffer from the major issue of 2 of their mons overlapping in 80-odd % of what they do in addition to some of the scariest attackers nuking imp for often-lethal amounts of damage, and the only real advantage is having access to Cloak Imposter when you'd have otherwise left it behind.
Claw lasting as long as it did wasn't really due to Cloak masking its presence, but rather that (in the same vein as Baton Pass and Imprison) nobody really tried to make it broken until later on in the gen. Ultimately, we can't tier around issues that we don't know exist, and in a similar vein we can't just pre-emptively ban stuff that we think is broken without any major evidence (else Pop Bomb and Gigaton would've started the gen on the banlist). I may be in the minority here but I think the order i'd take action is Mortal -> Salt -> Axe; Axe seems the least offensive to me because it's not like Axe being gone is going to magically remove teams' need for removal. I run a lot of Mega Steelix so I don't really have too big an issue with Mortal personally, but I can clearly see the issues that Cloak centralization creates.
GF shouldn't have re-added all the cut guys then
Maybe i'm biased from starting in Gen 8, but to me it seems like getting the short end of the stick from Game Freak is just the reality for BH for now, and we just have to get on with it. Aside from re-adding all the mons, issues like incomplete move interactions (Bitter Blade + Triage, Hydro Steam + Desolate Land), stupid moves being shoveled in but balanced by weak / mid vanilla learners (Revival Blessing, Shed Tail, Population Bomb), and GF balancing more and more stuff with zero regards to stuff that it's not supposed to go with (V-create + OPulse, RV + Hadron, actual coverage with Sor/BoR, Good as Gold on something bulky, etc) is going to put us in a dodgy situation seemingly no matter which path we try and take.
Hey y’all notagamer here today with a new team this time with indefinitely worse mons, indefinitely cooler names
https://pokepast.es/56742545f605f217
Team star. Haven’t actually got much use of head smash yet so might change it to tidy up. Absorbs mortal spinners which is really good.
My partner for ho-oh. Rev dance is funny. Earth power is cool but I also have like 0 speed control so definitely could change to e speed.
My ice scales mon. Improofed by ho oh.
It’s fc it’s bulky. Slow pivots on some stuff well like the occasional banded
Second slow pivot and a knock user.
You know and love (or hate it) it’s chansey with a set of spikes nuzzle slack off and block (probably entirely trash but it’s imp anyway)
(This team legit just dies into
and 
)
(I also have another variant with
and 
here’s the pokepaste for it https://pokepast.es/04e7e7ef626212c0)
https://pokepast.es/56742545f605f217
Team star. Haven’t actually got much use of head smash yet so might change it to tidy up. Absorbs mortal spinners which is really good.
My partner for ho-oh. Rev dance is funny. Earth power is cool but I also have like 0 speed control so definitely could change to e speed.
My ice scales mon. Improofed by ho oh.
It’s fc it’s bulky. Slow pivots on some stuff well like the occasional banded
Second slow pivot and a knock user.
You know and love (or hate it) it’s chansey with a set of spikes nuzzle slack off and block (probably entirely trash but it’s imp anyway)
(This team legit just dies into
and )(I also have another variant with
and here’s the pokepaste for it https://pokepast.es/04e7e7ef626212c0)
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Hello again everyone. It’s me, back with another post. This time I want to share some set ideas that I think have good potential and are worth exploring. I want to preface this by talking about Imposter. In my opinion, imposters are extremely strong at the moment due to the bans/unavailability of traditional anti-imposter measures such as Thousand Waves, Anchor Shot, Imprison, Poison Heal, Quiver Dance (which synergises with Spooky Judgment), Shell Smash and Belly Drum. Furthermore, the unavailability of Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief makes Imposter extremely valuable at stopping setup sweepers. This is evidenced by the lack of good setup sweepers outside of Arceus which cannot be Knocked Off. With that being said, I do not actually think Imposter should be banned because I think it encourages and rewards good teambuilding which in my opinion is the best part of BH.
With that out of the way, I want to talk about some sets which are effective against Imposters because I feel like people are focusing too much on getting rid of the problem (banning/limiting Imposter) rather than adapting and finding sets which are effective against Imposters. I would also like to say that these sets are not perfect. They do have flaws. However, if you are willing to look past the flaws and try them out, then read on. I am not interested in arguing against people who always focus on why my sets are bad. I will reiterate that I understand these sets can be walled but I am not looking to create the perfect sets.
Garchomp-Mega @ Covert Cloak / Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin / Wind Rider
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Headlong Rush
- Glaive Rush
- Strength Sap / Taunt
Kyurem-Black @ Covert Cloak / Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Glacial Lance
- Glaive Rush
- Strength Sap / Taunt / Headlong Rush
The first idea I will share is running Tailwind. Tailwind is a unique setup move which doubles your team’s speed and is not copied by Imposters. By using a Dragon type with Glaive Rush, you can OHKO imposters with some chip and if you remove their Eviolite as shown by the calcs. Tailwind can also be run by other dragons or mons with 4x weakness. Some examples include Necrozma-U, Rayquaza, Zekrom, MMence, MTar, MSwampert, Kartana among others. Sword of Ruin is the best general ability to increase your damage however you can run other options. An interesting idea is to run Wind Rider. If you don’t know, Wind Rider is an ability that makes you immune to Wind Type moves. It also gives you +1 attack whenever hit by such moves as well as when you set up a Tailwind. You can use this the above sets to imposter proof your own wind mon.
In general however, SOR lets you hit harder without setup but Wind Rider lets you hit a little harder after Tailwind and can give you an additional +1 attack if you switch in on an imposter’s wind moves. The choice is up to you. The downside of this set is that you don’t boost your attack. Even if you run Wind Rider, you’re only going to get +1 attack most of the time. This means that you can’t really break through Fur Coat mons unless they are chipped already. Other than the two STABs and Tailwind you do have one moveslot open. Strength Sap is good for longevity but if you have wish support or don’t care for it, you can run Taunt to stop Strength Sap or an additional coverage move.
Dialga-Origin @ Adamant Crystal
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Strength Sap
Eternatus @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Strength Sap
- Fleur Cannon
The next idea is to run Merciless. If you don't know what Merciless does, I wouldn't blame you because it's an obscure ability. Merciless guarantees crits against poisoned mons. Yes, these sets require Toxic Spikes/Mortal Spin support from your team to work properly and yes, it's not great against other Steel and Poison types. The idea here is that when an imposter comes in, they will get poisoned by Toxic Spikes or from prior Mortal Spin. If you don’t know, Imposter Chansey can get poisoned by Toxic Spikes just like how it always takes 12% from rocks. Meanwhile, you yourself are unable to be poisoned. This means that you always crit against imposters whereas they are not guaranteed. By running moves such as Draco Meteor and Overheat, you can lower your own special attack so Imposters don't do much while yours ignore the drops. As mentioned before, the main flaw lies in steel and poison types which can remove Toxic Spikes and are immune to poison. Other than that however, these mons do respectable damage as shown by the calcs.
Sceptile-Mega @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Giga Drain
- Steam Eruption
Venusaur-Mega @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Giga Drain
- Strength Sap
Reshiram @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Bitter Blade
- Giga Drain
Hoopa-Unbound @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Stored Power
- Strength Sap
The final idea I will share in this post is what I call the “cooking” set. The set revolves around Belch, a 120 bp poison move that only works when the user has eaten a berry. To activate Belch, we run Fillet Away in conjunction with the Sitrus Berry and Simple. There are a couple of important things to note about Belch. Firstly and most importantly is that imposters cannot use it because they have not eaten a berry. The other important thing is that once the mon has consumed the berry, it is able to use Belch for the rest of the game. This means that if you switch out, you are still able to use it in the future. Other than Fillet Away and Belch, the last two moves are flexible and depend on the mon choice. Ideally it would be a mon that quad resists or immune to a type. As demonstrated above, MVenusaur and MSceptile has STAB Belch and quad resists its own Giga Drain. MSceptile can run Steam Eruption to hit MSteelix harder and quad resists itself. Reshiram quad resists Fire and Grass. Hoopa-U is immune to Stored Power. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg. You can run Palkia, Eternatus, Rayquaza, MMence, Lugia and a whole lot of other mons with quad resistance. Do note that the effectiveness of different mons vary, and obviously some mons will be better than others depending on their stats and typing. I just picked the four that I feel are quite good. You can also run Strength Sap over a 2nd coverage for sustainability. I’m running simple because it gives you an explosive fillet away boost but you don’t actually need it to self-imposterproof. You can run other abilities but I still believe that the Simple boost is better, though I would be happy to be proven wrong.
In conclusion, although Imposters are extremely strong due to the absence of certain moves and abilities as mentioned above, I think the complaints are partially due to a lack of creativity as well as the difficulty in imposter proofing, especially self imposterproofing, I hope that with the exposition of the above sets, people will be able to deal with imposters more effectively, or at least be inspired to create new sets to deal with Imposters. Thank you for your time.
With that out of the way, I want to talk about some sets which are effective against Imposters because I feel like people are focusing too much on getting rid of the problem (banning/limiting Imposter) rather than adapting and finding sets which are effective against Imposters. I would also like to say that these sets are not perfect. They do have flaws. However, if you are willing to look past the flaws and try them out, then read on. I am not interested in arguing against people who always focus on why my sets are bad. I will reiterate that I understand these sets can be walled but I am not looking to create the perfect sets.
Garchomp-Mega @ Covert Cloak / Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin / Wind Rider
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Headlong Rush
- Glaive Rush
- Strength Sap / Taunt
Kyurem-Black @ Covert Cloak / Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Glacial Lance
- Glaive Rush
- Strength Sap / Taunt / Headlong Rush
Imposter
252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp-Mega: 655-772 (91.7 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
FC Arceus
252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 160-188 (36 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
MMX
252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 360-425 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp-Mega: 655-772 (91.7 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
FC Arceus
252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 160-188 (36 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
MMX
252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Garchomp-Mega Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 360-425 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
The first idea I will share is running Tailwind. Tailwind is a unique setup move which doubles your team’s speed and is not copied by Imposters. By using a Dragon type with Glaive Rush, you can OHKO imposters with some chip and if you remove their Eviolite as shown by the calcs. Tailwind can also be run by other dragons or mons with 4x weakness. Some examples include Necrozma-U, Rayquaza, Zekrom, MMence, MTar, MSwampert, Kartana among others. Sword of Ruin is the best general ability to increase your damage however you can run other options. An interesting idea is to run Wind Rider. If you don’t know, Wind Rider is an ability that makes you immune to Wind Type moves. It also gives you +1 attack whenever hit by such moves as well as when you set up a Tailwind. You can use this the above sets to imposter proof your own wind mon.
In general however, SOR lets you hit harder without setup but Wind Rider lets you hit a little harder after Tailwind and can give you an additional +1 attack if you switch in on an imposter’s wind moves. The choice is up to you. The downside of this set is that you don’t boost your attack. Even if you run Wind Rider, you’re only going to get +1 attack most of the time. This means that you can’t really break through Fur Coat mons unless they are chipped already. Other than the two STABs and Tailwind you do have one moveslot open. Strength Sap is good for longevity but if you have wish support or don’t care for it, you can run Taunt to stop Strength Sap or an additional coverage move.
Dialga-Origin @ Adamant Crystal
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Strength Sap
Eternatus @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Merciless
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Strength Sap
- Fleur Cannon
Imposter
252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Eternatus on a critical hit: 380-450 (53.2 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Arceus
252+ SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus on a critical hit: 325-384 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus on a critical hit: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For reference, Eternatus does about ¾ the damage of Dialga.
Mega Steelix
252+ SpA Dialga-Origin Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Steelix-Mega: 172-204 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
MMX
252+ SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X on a critical hit: 367-433 (88.2 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Eternatus Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X on a critical hit: 366-432 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Pogre
252+ SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 120-141 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage
252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Eternatus on a critical hit: 380-450 (53.2 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Arceus
252+ SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus on a critical hit: 325-384 (73.1 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Eternatus Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus on a critical hit: 241-285 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For reference, Eternatus does about ¾ the damage of Dialga.
Mega Steelix
252+ SpA Dialga-Origin Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Steelix-Mega: 172-204 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
MMX
252+ SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X on a critical hit: 367-433 (88.2 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Eternatus Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X on a critical hit: 366-432 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Pogre
252+ SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 120-141 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after poison damage
The next idea is to run Merciless. If you don't know what Merciless does, I wouldn't blame you because it's an obscure ability. Merciless guarantees crits against poisoned mons. Yes, these sets require Toxic Spikes/Mortal Spin support from your team to work properly and yes, it's not great against other Steel and Poison types. The idea here is that when an imposter comes in, they will get poisoned by Toxic Spikes or from prior Mortal Spin. If you don’t know, Imposter Chansey can get poisoned by Toxic Spikes just like how it always takes 12% from rocks. Meanwhile, you yourself are unable to be poisoned. This means that you always crit against imposters whereas they are not guaranteed. By running moves such as Draco Meteor and Overheat, you can lower your own special attack so Imposters don't do much while yours ignore the drops. As mentioned before, the main flaw lies in steel and poison types which can remove Toxic Spikes and are immune to poison. Other than that however, these mons do respectable damage as shown by the calcs.
Sceptile-Mega @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Giga Drain
- Steam Eruption
Venusaur-Mega @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Giga Drain
- Strength Sap
Reshiram @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Bitter Blade
- Giga Drain
Hoopa-Unbound @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Belch
- Stored Power
- Strength Sap
Imposter
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Belch vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Venusaur: 325-384 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
Arceus
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 430-507 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 277-327 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
MMX
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 487-574 (117 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pogre
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal: 438-516 (108.4 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal
+4 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 421-496 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Belch vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Venusaur: 325-384 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
Arceus
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 430-507 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 277-327 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
MMX
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 487-574 (117 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pogre
+4 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Kyogre-Primal: 438-516 (108.4 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal
+4 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound Belch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 421-496 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
The final idea I will share in this post is what I call the “cooking” set. The set revolves around Belch, a 120 bp poison move that only works when the user has eaten a berry. To activate Belch, we run Fillet Away in conjunction with the Sitrus Berry and Simple. There are a couple of important things to note about Belch. Firstly and most importantly is that imposters cannot use it because they have not eaten a berry. The other important thing is that once the mon has consumed the berry, it is able to use Belch for the rest of the game. This means that if you switch out, you are still able to use it in the future. Other than Fillet Away and Belch, the last two moves are flexible and depend on the mon choice. Ideally it would be a mon that quad resists or immune to a type. As demonstrated above, MVenusaur and MSceptile has STAB Belch and quad resists its own Giga Drain. MSceptile can run Steam Eruption to hit MSteelix harder and quad resists itself. Reshiram quad resists Fire and Grass. Hoopa-U is immune to Stored Power. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg. You can run Palkia, Eternatus, Rayquaza, MMence, Lugia and a whole lot of other mons with quad resistance. Do note that the effectiveness of different mons vary, and obviously some mons will be better than others depending on their stats and typing. I just picked the four that I feel are quite good. You can also run Strength Sap over a 2nd coverage for sustainability. I’m running simple because it gives you an explosive fillet away boost but you don’t actually need it to self-imposterproof. You can run other abilities but I still believe that the Simple boost is better, though I would be happy to be proven wrong.
In conclusion, although Imposters are extremely strong due to the absence of certain moves and abilities as mentioned above, I think the complaints are partially due to a lack of creativity as well as the difficulty in imposter proofing, especially self imposterproofing, I hope that with the exposition of the above sets, people will be able to deal with imposters more effectively, or at least be inspired to create new sets to deal with Imposters. Thank you for your time.
Tailwind Garchomp
https://pokepast.es/56f563794ae1f56e
Merciless Offence
https://pokepast.es/1dece9fe4c09907c
Cooking
https://pokepast.es/eeb60c80f8b20398
https://pokepast.es/56f563794ae1f56e
Merciless Offence
https://pokepast.es/1dece9fe4c09907c
Cooking
https://pokepast.es/eeb60c80f8b20398
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I'm sorry I can't take this seriously if you think the solution to all of BH's problems is banning MMX. "Yes lets ban an offensive mon in this overly defensive metagame, surely that won't do anything to make it more defensive". Though I do agree with everything but the MMX point, I really couldn't word it better, a lot of these are my gripes with the current meta game and it leaves me to not enjoy BH anymore. I also agree with a lumina crash suspect or ban.
I am seeing a lot of grass coverage, which was the case in prior generation. What changed?
Actual waters now is the main thing prob. That and mg mons being able to run the new chloroblast.
Pardon the interruption but we voted on some stuff.
Protean/Libero benefits from Full Dex offering a massive influx of mixed attackers with stats sufficient to 2HKO non-FurScales targets with neutral coverage. Protean breakers often turn playing against them into a 50/50 as to what coverage move they're going for; if you guess wrong, your defensive option has just taken over 50% and is immediately at risk of being KOed without a safe recovery window, and if you guess right all you really get for it is not dying. This 50/50 nature, as well as the sheer amount of stuff that can run it (even leading to things like Protean Deoxys-N and Mega Alakazam seeing success), ultimately aren't healthy for the tier.
With Protean/Libero being gone, the primary factor that got Deoxys-A banned no longer exists, so we're freeing it. Remaining abilities lack the ability to 2HKO things like FurScales Arceus with neutral coverage, and basically no good abilities offer a kick to mixed neutral coverage, meaning it's much less destructive and requires noticeably more prior chip to nab KOes without putting itself and its meager bulk at risk.
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This seems to be a common point of complaint among people that aren't enjoying the tier. Mortal Spin is mostly pointed to as the source of Covert Cloak often being basically the only item defensive Pokemon ever want to run, and it can create gameplay loops where Knock + Mortal is often the best way to make progress. Stone Axe is in a similar boat in that it arguably gives defensive options too strong a tool to make progress. These are very likely our next ports of call, although they'll likely ending up a couple weeks in case the DLC introduces anything of note and we have to quickban that.
Lumina Crash is an odd one. If we pushed a council vote then it'd end up banned, but the general sentiment is just "Yeah its kinda dumb but everyone spams Cloak for Mortal and Salt Cure anyway", so we're leaving it for the time being as it isn't a major standalone issue.
Tagging Kris to implement.
Protean/Libero is banned from BH! Deoxys-A is freed!
| ////////////// | Tea Guzzler | augustakira | Chessking345 | TTTech |
| Protean/Libero | Ban | Ban | Do Not Ban | Ban |
| Deoxys-A | Unban | Unban | Do Not Unban | Unban |
Protean/Libero benefits from Full Dex offering a massive influx of mixed attackers with stats sufficient to 2HKO non-FurScales targets with neutral coverage. Protean breakers often turn playing against them into a 50/50 as to what coverage move they're going for; if you guess wrong, your defensive option has just taken over 50% and is immediately at risk of being KOed without a safe recovery window, and if you guess right all you really get for it is not dying. This 50/50 nature, as well as the sheer amount of stuff that can run it (even leading to things like Protean Deoxys-N and Mega Alakazam seeing success), ultimately aren't healthy for the tier. With Protean/Libero being gone, the primary factor that got Deoxys-A banned no longer exists, so we're freeing it. Remaining abilities lack the ability to 2HKO things like FurScales Arceus with neutral coverage, and basically no good abilities offer a kick to mixed neutral coverage, meaning it's much less destructive and requires noticeably more prior chip to nab KOes without putting itself and its meager bulk at risk.----------------------------------
This seems to be a common point of complaint among people that aren't enjoying the tier. Mortal Spin is mostly pointed to as the source of Covert Cloak often being basically the only item defensive Pokemon ever want to run, and it can create gameplay loops where Knock + Mortal is often the best way to make progress. Stone Axe is in a similar boat in that it arguably gives defensive options too strong a tool to make progress. These are very likely our next ports of call, although they'll likely ending up a couple weeks in case the DLC introduces anything of note and we have to quickban that. Lumina Crash is an odd one. If we pushed a council vote then it'd end up banned, but the general sentiment is just "Yeah its kinda dumb but everyone spams Cloak for Mortal and Salt Cure anyway", so we're leaving it for the time being as it isn't a major standalone issue.Tagging Kris to implement.
One could say covert cloak is both a blessing and a curse.
I completely agree with this, and I would go even further. Covert cloak is the only item any pokemon would want to run, this meta is filled to the brim with stuff like mortal spin and salt cure. Mortal spin is useful as a hazard removing move that promotes progress, but salt cure is just pure stall. Not one of my favorite moves definitely.
I think Lumina Crash should go ASAP.
At where it is now, it's incredibly centralizing the usage of Covert Cloak on every single defensive mon, and forcing the entire SpDef meta into holding a Cloak, is a Dark or a Regenvest. This, in turn, allows for the usage of hazard stacking & knockspam to easily dispatch those more, since they can't hold Boots, or a utility unknockable item because you simply lose to Lumina Crash otherwise.
"But people are already using Covert Cloak not just for Lumina Crash, but for dumb stuff like Salt Cure and Mortal Spin too!!!"
I'm not gonna argue Salt Cure, but Mortal Spin is definitely blockable/nullifiable by a lot of stuff (Regenvest MLix having stupidly high usage for example), and apart from the things already mentioned, there's not a lot of matchups made easier by Cloak.
Also, there’s been an influx of bans related (not entirely the cause of, but definitely related) to Lumina Crash. MMY, Protean, and before Protean, Deoxys-A bans were all partially tied to Lumina Crash in a way. We’ve freed Deoxys-A because 3 mons were broken with Protean, surely the same logic can be applied to here - MMY/MMX, Deoxys-A and other undiscovered Psychics are all really busted with Lumina, Lumina’s probably the problem, not the mons themselves.
TL,DR: lumina overcentralizes cloak & spdef meta (results in knockspam and hazard stacking being really strong), multiple mons were banned partially because of lumina -> lumina is the problem
At where it is now, it's incredibly centralizing the usage of Covert Cloak on every single defensive mon, and forcing the entire SpDef meta into holding a Cloak, is a Dark or a Regenvest. This, in turn, allows for the usage of hazard stacking & knockspam to easily dispatch those more, since they can't hold Boots, or a utility unknockable item because you simply lose to Lumina Crash otherwise.
"But people are already using Covert Cloak not just for Lumina Crash, but for dumb stuff like Salt Cure and Mortal Spin too!!!"
I'm not gonna argue Salt Cure, but Mortal Spin is definitely blockable/nullifiable by a lot of stuff (Regenvest MLix having stupidly high usage for example), and apart from the things already mentioned, there's not a lot of matchups made easier by Cloak.
Also, there’s been an influx of bans related (not entirely the cause of, but definitely related) to Lumina Crash. MMY, Protean, and before Protean, Deoxys-A bans were all partially tied to Lumina Crash in a way. We’ve freed Deoxys-A because 3 mons were broken with Protean, surely the same logic can be applied to here - MMY/MMX, Deoxys-A and other undiscovered Psychics are all really busted with Lumina, Lumina’s probably the problem, not the mons themselves.
TL,DR: lumina overcentralizes cloak & spdef meta (results in knockspam and hazard stacking being really strong), multiple mons were banned partially because of lumina -> lumina is the problem
2 reasons
1°: They added 2 busted grass moves in chloroblast and flower trick. The former has lots of synergy with magic guard in the same vain as mind blown in gen 7 and 8. The latter is just almost the perfect STAB for Kartana, who is seeing play right now due to Gigaton Hammer.
2°: Lots of Kyogre-Primal, Diancie-Mega and Arceus-Ground makes grass an actual decent move to fire off as coverage, specially for the former one.
PS:
I'm sure I said it was either MMX OR Lumina Crash. You can't really have both and that's a huge problem of this meta, Lumina Crash on MMX, and you can't deny it's partially due to MMX being kinda the perfect offensive pokémon. That being said Lumina Crash is so powerful it makes stuff like Mega Alakazam good, so I expect this to be the first banworthy move; if Mewtwo X and Y is still a problem then act on them, but I doubt it because psychic is a bottom 3 offensive typing alongside Grass and Bug, even though Fighting is a top 4 behind Ice, Ground and rock.
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OK so DLC's out and we have most of the information pertaining to BH, so i'll just summarize it here (using this doc as a reference)
Bloodmoon Ursaluna - Ground/Normal, 113/70/120/135/65/52 (Total: 555)
Will likely be inconsequential. No one stat is a standout, and aside from having STAB Boomburst / Ground Revdance, there's basically no reason to use it. 135 SpA is also kinda just... low, as Ursaluna's relevance was only really propped up by Population Bomb's insane damage potential (plus its Attack is higher than BM's SpA). As a PhysDef, being weak to Fighting is a severe issue.
Okidogi - Poison/Fighting, 88/128/115/58/86/80 (Total: 555)
Don't think this will ever see use. Typing is potentially decent as a CC spammer that bombs Fairies with STAB, but anything with a 120 STAB + Gigaton will likely outdo it thanks to its mediocre base stats.
Munkidori - Poison/Psychic, 88/75/66/130/90/106 (Total: 555)
This has an OK (I guess? Psychic does it zero favours) typing but is almost directly outclassed at everything. Defensively it is a severe step down from Arceus-Poison and the other Fairy resists, and offensively Eternatus exists.
Fezandipiti - Poison/Fairy, 88/91/82/70/129/99 (Total: 550)
Typing is really cool but those offensive stats are really poor. Its also geared to be a special tank but is still frailer and faster than POgre and much frailer than Arceus.
Ogrepon (Teal Mask) - Grass, 80/120/84/60/96/110 (Total: 550) (All 4 of these have the same BST and spread)
Geared as a Grass Physical Attacker, which are both kinda meh and also Kartana exists (and outrunning Kart / Speedtieing MDia isn't making up for no Steel STAB and 61 base Attack). Defensively Grass is pretty poor and this has all-around bad stats for the job anyway.
Ogerpon (Wellspring Mask) - Grass/Water
Grass that isn't weak to V-create, or Water that isn't weak to Leaf Storm? I guess? Cool typing but stat spread basically removes the defensive niche otherwise granted.
Ogerpon (Heartflame Mask) - Grass/Fire
Its the same as the one above - typing's geared defensively but the BST drags it back. Offensively, this has a little more hope in that it has STAB V-create + Solar Beam, meaning it can maybe slightly beat MBlaze?
Ogerpon (Cornerstone Mask) - Grass/Rock
what even is this
Will likely be inconsequential. No one stat is a standout, and aside from having STAB Boomburst / Ground Revdance, there's basically no reason to use it. 135 SpA is also kinda just... low, as Ursaluna's relevance was only really propped up by Population Bomb's insane damage potential (plus its Attack is higher than BM's SpA). As a PhysDef, being weak to Fighting is a severe issue.
Don't think this will ever see use. Typing is potentially decent as a CC spammer that bombs Fairies with STAB, but anything with a 120 STAB + Gigaton will likely outdo it thanks to its mediocre base stats.
This has an OK (I guess? Psychic does it zero favours) typing but is almost directly outclassed at everything. Defensively it is a severe step down from Arceus-Poison and the other Fairy resists, and offensively Eternatus exists.
Typing is really cool but those offensive stats are really poor. Its also geared to be a special tank but is still frailer and faster than POgre and much frailer than Arceus.
Geared as a Grass Physical Attacker, which are both kinda meh and also Kartana exists (and outrunning Kart / Speedtieing MDia isn't making up for no Steel STAB and 61 base Attack). Defensively Grass is pretty poor and this has all-around bad stats for the job anyway.
Grass that isn't weak to V-create, or Water that isn't weak to Leaf Storm? I guess? Cool typing but stat spread basically removes the defensive niche otherwise granted.
Its the same as the one above - typing's geared defensively but the BST drags it back. Offensively, this has a little more hope in that it has STAB V-create + Solar Beam, meaning it can maybe slightly beat MBlaze?
what even is this
Mind's Eye - Accuracy can't be lowered, Ignores Evasion changes on the target, Can hit Ghosts with Normal and Fighting moves.
Upgraded Scrappy but none of the upgrades do anything here. It doesn't even mention an Intimidate immunity like Scrappy does.
Toxic Chain - May badly poison the target when its hit with a move.
Bad poison is spooky, as is the "hit with any move" trigger, but the chance and being blocked by Cloak are currently unknown. I'll edit those in when I find out.
Embody Aspect - Boosts Spe/SpD/Atk/Def by 1 stage depending on which variant of Embody Aspect is used (its the same case as As One, where two different abilities have the same name).
This has already been confirmed to activate multiple times a match (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scarlet-violet-battle-mechanics-research.3709545/post-9777997), basically meaning these are reskins of Gen 8 ISword, which is very scary. Defenses will never be relevant because Fur Coat and Ice Scales exist, Speed will in all likelihood be meh going by Scarf's precedent, but Attack may well end up banworthy. Do note that this currently hasn't been confirmed to work on Pokemon that aren't Ogerpon (Embody Aspect only shows up on Terastallized Ogerpon (which is a different forme to the ones above), which is inaccessible here due to Tera ban and there won't be an exception).
Upgraded Scrappy but none of the upgrades do anything here. It doesn't even mention an Intimidate immunity like Scrappy does.
Toxic Chain - May badly poison the target when its hit with a move.
Bad poison is spooky, as is the "hit with any move" trigger, but the chance and being blocked by Cloak are currently unknown. I'll edit those in when I find out.
Embody Aspect - Boosts Spe/SpD/Atk/Def by 1 stage depending on which variant of Embody Aspect is used (its the same case as As One, where two different abilities have the same name).
This has already been confirmed to activate multiple times a match (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scarlet-violet-battle-mechanics-research.3709545/post-9777997), basically meaning these are reskins of Gen 8 ISword, which is very scary. Defenses will never be relevant because Fur Coat and Ice Scales exist, Speed will in all likelihood be meh going by Scarf's precedent, but Attack may well end up banworthy. Do note that this currently hasn't been confirmed to work on Pokemon that aren't Ogerpon (Embody Aspect only shows up on Terastallized Ogerpon (which is a different forme to the ones above), which is inaccessible here due to Tera ban and there won't be an exception).
Returning moves -
Jirachi - Doom Desire
Manaphy - Tail Glow / Take Heart (Calm Mind + Refresh)
Darkrai - Dark Void
Shaymin - Seed Flare
Ariados - Toxic Thread
Kommo-o - Clangorous Soul / Clanging Scales
New moves -
Blood Moon - Special Normal Gigaton with 140 BP.
/dt boomburst
Ivy Cudgel - Grass, 80 BP, boosted Crit Rate. Raging Bull effect for Ogerpon formes.
/dt flower trick
Matcha Gotcha - Grass, 80 BP, 90 Accuracy, 50% Drain, ??% (likely 30%, will edit in when known) Burn.
Triage Giga Drain never saw good use and this, especially given it misses, realistically won't be changing that.
Changed moves -
Glide got fucking nerfed again to 55 BP lmao
Jirachi - Doom Desire
Manaphy - Tail Glow / Take Heart (Calm Mind + Refresh)
Darkrai - Dark Void
Shaymin - Seed Flare
Ariados - Toxic Thread
Kommo-o - Clangorous Soul / Clanging Scales
New moves -
Blood Moon - Special Normal Gigaton with 140 BP.
/dt boomburst
Ivy Cudgel - Grass, 80 BP, boosted Crit Rate. Raging Bull effect for Ogerpon formes.
/dt flower trick
Matcha Gotcha - Grass, 80 BP, 90 Accuracy, 50% Drain, ??% (likely 30%, will edit in when known) Burn.
Triage Giga Drain never saw good use and this, especially given it misses, realistically won't be changing that.
Changed moves -
Glide got fucking nerfed again to 55 BP lmao
Fairy Feather - Fairy-type equivalent of Mystic Water / Soft Sand.
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Are those moves allowed in the current gen 9 BH tournament? Or it'll be, just like Deoxys-Attack, be banned until next round?
Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Simple / Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Dragon Energy
- Steam Eruption / Water Spout
- Strength Sap
cmon now is this really legal? with qd banned (also unban qd we can counter victory dancers surely we can counter quiver dancers?) this becomed the ultimate set-up move, immediately making pokemon like palkia-o just plain busted
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Choice Band
Ability: Embody Aspect: Hearthflame Mask
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Wicked Blow
- Gigaton Hammer
- U-turn
I'm not sure if this works, but if so this looks WAY to good. A pokemon with a high base Attack get a 2.25x boost to its attack is just crazy, as it's literally Gorilla Tactics but better on set-up sweeper, and worse on banded mons. Either way this needs to get banned
Arceus-Poison @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Timid / Bold Nature
- Shore Up / Recover
- Judgment
- Take Heart
- Mortal Spin / Toxic
Calm Mind is now completely and utterly outclassed by Take Heart, which is now a status removing move and boosts your SpA and SpD by +1. Anyway, this looks sweet on defensive pokemon, especially those weak to things like Toxic or Paralysis
Sceptile-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw / Beads Of Ruin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Dragon Energy
- Seed Flare
- Steam Eruption / Armor Cannon / Trick
What? Sceptile gets reliable Grass STAB without needing to use MGuard? I personally think Mega Sceptile is pretty alright, but it might be outclassed by others
All and all this update is kinda bad, apart from these mentioned ones above
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Allowed next round unless they're banned b4 r3 is up
https://pokepast.es/8a4acf63decc2885. Enjoy in the few seconds that Tail Glow remains legal.
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Decided to pick up BH again recently, especially with the DLC on the horizon. Now that it's here I have two thoughts: Embody Aspect is a top tier meme, I love having Gorilla Tactics back without the drawback and with a special option in case you just feel extra daring today. Then again Tail Glow is here doing very wacky stuff to our favorite special attackers, which renders that option kinda obsolete.
God, I love the lawless hellscape that appears when new stuff drops. I'm curious to see how the stuff that is not as blatantly overpowered as Tail Glow and Embody Aspect, mainly Take Heart, which I could see being a big issue down the road. Having a Calm Mind that also cleanses status is kind of wacky and I'm not sure if it should stick around for too long.
Overall the meta is actually quite fun at the moment. Let's see how things settle over the coming weeks.
PS: Please ban Embody Aspect and Tail Glow as ASAP as possible thanks
God, I love the lawless hellscape that appears when new stuff drops. I'm curious to see how the stuff that is not as blatantly overpowered as Tail Glow and Embody Aspect, mainly Take Heart, which I could see being a big issue down the road. Having a Calm Mind that also cleanses status is kind of wacky and I'm not sure if it should stick around for too long.
Overall the meta is actually quite fun at the moment. Let's see how things settle over the coming weeks.
PS: Please ban Embody Aspect and Tail Glow as ASAP as possible thanks
https://pokepast.es/fe00e2dd0dedc22a
double hearthflame sapblocking!GT meta who??????
Team lacks extremely strong defensive backbone and is meant to be played quick, enjoy for the 5 seconds Hearthflame remains legal
double hearthflame sapblocking!
Team lacks extremely strong defensive backbone and is meant to be played quick, enjoy for the 5 seconds Hearthflame remains legal
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first quickban of the dlc woo
This ban is pretty self-explanatory; it's just Gen 8 Intrepid Sword. The last buff physical attackers need is just a flat damage increase, especially into Imposter users (meaning usage of scarier physical breakers that struggle into Imposter, like MMX, becomes a lot easier), creating situations where stuff like Kartana and Mega Garchomp just straight up doesn't get walled. Given the resist-heavy nature of Improofing currently, as well as the omnipresence of Strength Sap, Improofing +2 Imposter users is realistically not significant enough of a drawback to keep this ability stable.
Tail Glow is very likely the next thing that gets voted on, but it's not been banned before, so we want to give it a tad of breathing room (although it looks like there isn't a ton to give). Don't personally expect this one to last much longer.
Tagging Kris to implement.
edit: ability doesn't work on non-ogerpon, so this is effectively dead anyway lol
Embody Aspect (Hearthflame) is Quickbanned from BH!
| ////////////// | Tea Guzzler | augustakira | TTTech | Chessking345 |
| Embody Aspect (Hearthflame) | Ban | Ban | Ban | Abstain |
Tail Glow is very likely the next thing that gets voted on, but it's not been banned before, so we want to give it a tad of breathing room (although it looks like there isn't a ton to give). Don't personally expect this one to last much longer.Tagging Kris to implement.
edit: ability doesn't work on non-ogerpon, so this is effectively dead anyway lol
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