BH Balanced Hackmons

[Akira 153]

Gonna dump all my old meta teams since dlc2 has dropped. Wouldn't recommend using any of these nowadays although I bet you could edit them to be workable.

hyper offenses

All time classic, very silly team, surprisingly effective cause you can just overwhelm a lot of teams
Effectiveness: ★★☆☆☆


Lot of fun sets here, this team has actually done consistently well into a lot of serious balance teams, was able to climb ladder easily despite HOs being traditionally inconsistent
Effectiveness: ★★★☆☆

balances

This team wasn't great, although i still like the concept behind it.
Effectiveness: ★☆☆☆☆


An attempt at making a hazard-immune stall team after the lumina ban, don't like this one.
Effectiveness: ★☆☆☆☆


Gambit Kyuw + Scarf Blace, this team hates Stone Axe.
Effectiveness: ★★☆☆☆


First use of MG Miraidon, rest of team pretty ineffective though.
Effectiveness: ★★☆☆☆


Used this to CTeam Geneku in tour, worked well but it's a cteam after all.
Effectiveness: ★★☆☆☆


This team was like fine ig.
Effectiveness: ★★★☆☆


This team was like fine ig.
Effectiveness: ★★★☆☆


This team was really fun to use, but it struggles to make progress against lots of stuff and Arc's improofing is suspect.
Effectiveness: ★★★☆☆


Last team I built in DLC1, some fun concepts but it doesn't have a Scales so I wouldn't call it consistent.
Effectiveness: ★★★☆☆


This team was from before Lumina got banned, very effective hazard-immune hazard stack team. MG Dragceus is the goat.
Effectiveness: ★★★★☆


Sample team, uses SFLO MMX so it's good by default.
Effectiveness: ★★★★☆


Fixed up this team for Spacespeakers for OM Champs, apparently built off a core they got from TTTech, although i changed it quite a lot. They lost but I don't think it was the team's fault, and it's worked great for me on ladder. Very similar to the team right above.
Effectiveness: ★★★★☆


One of my most consistent builds in the dlc1 meta. Built right after the lumina ban so it doesn't account for the MMX sets that appeared after, but despite that it's done great against everything right up until the indigo disk drop since it can out-offense most MMX reliant teams. Took me from 1000 to 1720 elo pretty effortlessly during the week before dlc2.
Effectiveness: ★★★★★


Extremely reliable team, only issue is I wasn't able to fit Stone Axe anywhere. No real flaws besides a poor FC Ho-oh matchup.
Effectiveness: ★★★★★


One of you tour players load this in OM champs to guaranteed win.
Effectiveness: ★★★★★★

Anyway in terms of my early thoughts on dlc. Geyser, Kartana and Electro Shot seem pretty blatantly broken. Sheer force users now having Bolt Strike (MMX reliably 2hkoes neutral arc and Deo-A can do it 90% of the time) and Mist Ball / Luster Purge (MMX's 2hko range on neutral arc goes from ~12% to ~75%) makes them seem pretty broken, but not sure how tiering should be approached there so it'll likely sit for a while.
Diancie is probably still broken but right now it's outclassed by a bit so we'll see how it goes once things settle down.
Moongeist Beam actually seems fine rn? but that may change once other more broken things are gone.

 

[Chessking345]

Kartana, Photon Geyser, and Electro Shot are quickbanned from BH!​

​	Tea Guzzler​	augustakira​	Chessking345​	TTTech​
Kartana​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​
Photon Geyser​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​
Electro Shot​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​	Ban​

Kartana in pre-DLC was already an immense threat with very limited checks and with the release Sunsteel Strike Kartana now has a tool that break past most Fur Coat neutrals, dealing up to 85% to Arceus formes while heavily pressuring Fur Coat resists like Ho-Oh as well (dealing up to 50% to it). Sunsteel Strike also does not have the major drawback of Gigaton Hammer, allowing it to apply consistent pressure against slower defensive Pokemon without being forced out. This forces every Fur Coat wall that intends on dealing with Kartana to have an intact Ability Shield, which is exclusively used for this purpose and is also susceptible to Knock Off. We chose to ban Kartana instead of Sunsteel Strike because it is unclear whether Steel-type alternatives like Mega Metagross and Mega Lucario would be overwhelming with it.

In a similar vein, Photon Geyser on threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Deoxys-A also force checks to hold an intact Ability Shield, but, unlike Sunsteel Strike, Photon Geyser can be utilized on both spectrums (which force the item on both Fur Coat and Ice Scales users) and by a vast pool of powerful Psychic-types. This is the reason we chose to ban the move, as even lower viability threats like Deoxys-N and Mega Alakazam would mandate Ability Shield usage on Ice Scales.

Electro Shot under rain is an exceptionally strong move that due to its SpA boost to power up successive moves is also generally low risk high reward. Electric-types like Miraidon are capable of using it as a powerful STAB while gaining Contrary-like benefits, with Miraidon having Dragon-STAB to deal with Dragon-type switch-ins, while Water-types like Ash Greninja utilize it for the coverage against opposing Water-types and Imposter while having Water-STAB to force out Ground-types that seek to block Electro Shot. Overall, the move was deemed too strong and restrictive, forcing teams to pack Ice Scales Electric-resists while not folding to Water-types at the same time.

Tagging Kris to implement, thanks! Also tagging Tea Guzzler to update OP.

 

[Notgamingreally]

Haiiiii just made dlc team with mega chomp
https://pokepast.es/507a6f8ca2b4c486

Moves should prob be replaced (was improofing e shot ash gren before I found out it got banned lmao)

BandGarchomp got two pretty neat tools in the dlc being sunsteel strike and bolt strike. The former is nice to fw fc maud and arc fairy a bit better and the latter has a better mu into ho oh and importantly celesteela + a bp buff over glance while still hitting yv

Not hyper confident about the set (very passive esp into cloaks) but I wanted to try out maud and found m chomp a good place for sapblocking

Nice fc into mmx meta, mega chomp imposter proof, spikes setter, nicely improofed by maud.

Haven’t tried scales psnceus but it’s probably good, considering the lack of special psychic moves outside of deo an and mmx which lunala can somewhat hold back, also hazard removal.

Crazy mon.
Also thinking on dlc
Mmx a bit cra cra (fc vic time to shine lmao), would support sus
M dia still doesn’t seem mega unbalanced, has its checks.
PLEASE ban salt cure
Sunsteel strike does not seem like a problem outside of the capabilities of Kartana.
Moongeist similarly has mediocre users save for blace that doesn’t get the hugest use out of it esp since it kinda wants astral bp.
speaking of blace blue flare is just a very good move, both on it (to fw fc answers) and in general to replace armor cannon, glad to have it back.
Deo a could be broke too but it’s also deo a so hmm
Sacred fire could be a cool move for defensive fires or fcs that want fire coverage like mega pert (who also got a sunsteel resist)
Beak blast alr mentioned as a way to attack on yv or ho oh (beak blast fc ho oh can check mixed dian through stone axe btw)
Topsy turvy is notable as a way to both improof and handle setup i.e mega chomp. Could prob even see it on prank mons cause of stuff like sd yv not being as common)

 

[Chessking345]

I played around with some ideas, wasn't able to get a great grasp on how the meta should be shaping to since my timezone is unviable and ladder is dead but here's some initial thoughts.

Flutter Mane is really really cool. Moongeist Beam alone helps elevate this Pokemon from being painfully mediocre due to lack of firepower to a immense threat. Due to Flutter's average SpA you need to run a boosting ability to ensure Moongeist hits the 2HKO benchmarks which does mean forgoing Pixilate. Adaptability or Beads of Ruin are both useable but personally I've been going Beads of Ruin because you want to boost either coverage moves or supporting moves like Doom Desire, though BoR's damage against Imposter is awful.
A really nice thing about Flutter is that your dual STAB hits so much that you can reasonably fit Knock Off which mainly removes AVs and the stray Ability Shield. Last move Astral Barrage provides more PP and a stronger nuke to hit OHKO thresholds, and if you connect a Moongeist on the opponents Scales then they are put into range of Astral for easier spamming later. Malignant Chain or Secret Sword are alternatives to nail Mega Audino and Blissey, Chain also can get some cheeky Toxics esp with Knock Off removing Cloaks. Improof is a bit awkward because of Knock, Scales Take Heart Arceus formes are reasonably good, and Imposter does work if you don't mind getting Knocked for easy role compression.
For Astral variant I built a team with Doom Desire support in mind to snipe Mega Audino. Celesteela is like one of the more splashable Doom Desire users but its SpA is very mid so even with BoR DD support you don't really beat the unmon Scales Audino (RegenVest is doable). For Blissey I just used Secret Sword Blissey to capitalize on it. After running into a abnormal number of MAuds I gave up and ran Chain over Astral, same Sword Ghostceus to help with Blissey but frees up Celesteela slot, and I find the team works a lot better.
I think Flutter Mane might end up to be overwhelming when some other stuff get cleared from the meta first. There are just so few good Moongeist switch-ins that are not AV (susceptible to Knock) or weak to Fleur, and the remaining switch-ins also just kind of suck outside of Flutter, with maybe the exception of Blissey. Yes even POgre's special bulk is insufficient Moongeist does 42.5 min to +SpD and it has to be Scales too, RegenVest gets knocked and Astraled. The question then becomes is Flutter Mane the issue or is Moongeist the issue. Other standout Moongeist abusers that are not broken in their own right include Spectrier (worse Flutter Mane) and Mega Alakazam (Specs Moongeist does around 81% of Flutter's damage, which is still respectable and Zam has a wide arsenal of Psychic STABs).


Cool mon. Victini appreciates the high usage of SF as opposed to MG on MMX because SF has a lot less tendency to run Dark or Ghost moves. FC Victini in particular is a pretty decent check into common SF MMX variants, can soft check Deo-A variants (LO Headlong barely doesn't 2HKO from full), can check some Diancies, check Kyu-B. I find that Victini's traits are better than those of like Solgaleo and Lunala. Its not the most non-passive mon out there but V-create does do its thing and lets you Mortal reasonably effectively. Magma Storm is also strong and I've been experimenting with Psychic Noise since Tini has a decent Speed but results are average at best. As a bonus Tini is a FC that resists Sunsteel for any stray Lucarios or Metagross out there and is less weak to Bolt Strike than Slowbro. Speaking of Slowbro, while I haven't used it yet it benefitted significantly from Kartana's departure as now its matchup into physical attackers is strong. Its huge bulk lets it shrug off Bolt Strikes reasonably. Mega Swampert is another one but that guy's bulk is kinda mid so while you don't get Bolt Striked you take a lot more from the neutral STABs.


I've tried this a little and this mon is maybe ok now? Its bulk is huge, FC doesn't get 2HKOed by SF MMX Torque from full which is irrelevant as a calc but kind of cool. Reasonable attack means Knock Off does decent chip and it also has a fun Thunder Cage immunity into those users.


Ghostceus feels decent right now? Secret Sword is a nice addition that helps Ghostceus not get walled by stuff like Blissey. NP and TH are both useable and the status pseudo-immunity granted by TH is really desirable sometimes but you are forced into Sap on those to actually beat Imposter which always feels weird. NP also allows Ice Scales which does help with a main issue of Ghostceus being an Arc that typically leaves team more vulnerable to Diancie. If you don't need the defensive ability Ghostceus also has excellent flexibility in picking another ability, ranging from FurScales to Bounce, MG, Debris, PSalt,


These two guys are really really strong. MMX can choose to tech past checks and counters even without that forces extremely specific checks (Luster and Bolt/CTorque both deal 46.8-55.5ish to neutral Arc bulk, which is crazy). This doesn't even account for MG sets that can be played more aggressively and utilize stuff like Moongeist Sunsteel better, or Band sets that can demolish the more mixed walls people generally run for this (Sunsteel 2hkos Arceus). Deoxys doesn't have the fighting STAB but is arguably worse as MMX is at least scoutable by Imposter, at most trading like 50%? health. Deo-A also has the special attack to fire off even stronger Lusters or Blue Flares, and this again doesn't take into account the other sets like LO/Specs Psysurge, LO/Specs Beads, MG. I don't think teams are capable of prepping for all the different viable MMX Deo-A sets and these are very clearly standout issues atm. Other stuff like Mega Diancie that are highly questionable become overshadowed.


Ooze is still uncompetitive surprise! I’ve played a few games using this probably poor team around an Ooze Poltergeist MMX and the ooze just cheeses games on its own. Also faced this one ooze mon that I luckily scouted with Imposter before blindly clicking sap (though scouting didn’t help much since it was still discouraging any attempts of sap).

Teams I used
https://pokepast.es/5654b7c463797f4a
Attempt one, not that great as big ashninja weakness and some sus sets but it wasn’t the worst
https://pokepast.es/372c5c7aa2fc1b79
Attempt two, much better, blissey is kind of weird on a special oriented team but it kind of does a nice job and you can replace with some sort of scales. Ghostceus ability is kind of customizable.
https://pokepast.es/b23fac5ddbf48d4e
Some extremely dubious sets but kind of funny. I haven’t made the change yet but it’s advised to not do CC Eject Pack and run like no item and some other fighting move instead. Wacan Berry is swappable, Ice Beam is for Chomp.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

Mega Mewtwo X and Deoxys-Attack are banned from BH!​

////////////	Tea Guzzler	augustakira	TTTech	Chessking345
Mewtwo-Mega-X	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban
Deoxys-Attack	Do Not Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban
Liquid Ooze	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Ban

MMX was already borderline before DLC but stood to gain a lot, mostly in regards to Sheer Force stuff. Bolt Strike is an excellent new option, sniping all of neutral non-Fur Coat Arceus, Fur Coat Mega Slowbro, Ho-Oh, and Yveltal in one slot. Luster Purge, while not as drastic an update (and held back by low PP), also makes the set more effective with a higher damage roll on neutral non-Scales Arceus. This also isn't counting other additions not related to Sheer Force, such as the return of Psycho Boost or the waning influence of a decent soft-check in Arceus-Fairy. Given that it's an already BL mon that got given buffs it really did not need, and that it has dramatic effects both in the builder and in-game, warrant its ban.

Most of the above applies here; it's got more offensive potential, notably making use of Blue Flare in addition to the other three moves, but suffers from the normal Deoxys issues of absent bulk. This doesn't seem to have bothered it all that much though; 180/180/150 with good set variety that can just delete a check with a specific coverage move will do that. This is in the same boat of just not having any consistent defensive answers really; this is augmented by offensive pressure being less clear-cut given Diancie's Extreme Speed isn't reliable with Psychic Surge being reasonably common and nothing bar Pheromosa (which has been a pretty poor option for a very long while) reliably chases it out.

This ability has always been sort of there and could feasibly be deemed uncompetitive with how dependent this meta on the whole is on Strength Sap. The power to instantly KO a sapping target is very strong and, given that it's not exactly a safe scout, can lead to some dodgy interactions. However, I ended up voting DNB for 2 reasons: 1 is that this just doesn't solve Sapblocking as a problem (you don't instantly die from sapping onto say Bounce, sure, but you're still caught out of position by a defensive mon that still gets off a free utility / pivot move, so the demon in the back is still being enabled to just come in again and pick up where it left off last time), and 2 is that with the MMX and Deo-A bans there's pretty high odds of Sap being down on the whole.

Theoretically these moves should be due for a retest with big abusers for both gone. However, we have tiering we want to get done reasonably soon (ideally in time for Open) and having to wait around to see if Crash is broken isn't really what we want. Both can reasonably happen some point down the line (similar to Substitute, which we still haven't gotten round to), but most likely when the dust settles for a bit.

Tagging Kris to implement.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

hi, couple of announcements

first, there's a ghosting tour on if you haven't seen, and signups are currently open; sign up with your friends or as a free agent to play!

secondly, there's a survey you can fill out here. this should mostly govern our action for the immediate future, since given the tour schedule that went up a couple of hours ago, we aren't really going to have much time to faff about with retesting stuff (without having consequences on tours) pretty much until seasonal finishes all the way down in august/september time. we plan to leave this open for about a week. big things that people have been asking about (diancie) are on there, so be sure to give feedback so we can take the most informed action!

 

[Tea Guzzler]

ended up delaying these results a couple days due to being busy + title update that dropped earlier today (it didn't add anything)

Q1: How much are you enjoying the current meta?

Average is ~6.45, which is a pretty substantial drop from last time's 7.475. Given the results later in the survey, teambuilder rigidity seems to be probably the main contributing factor. The DLC also not bringing back staples like Thousand Waves and Spectral Thief could also lead into staleness being a factor, but we can't exactly change that.

Q2: How competitive do you think the meta is?

Average is ~6.55, still down from last time's 6.9 but less so. This could also be due to building constraints (as people simply optimize their winpaths as time goes on), but stuff cropping up like Liquid Ooze or Salt Cure could feasibly be why this is down. If i'm honest it's usually raw cheese that brings this down, but there really isn't a ton right now, so i'm not exactly sure why the results are the way they are.

Q3: How flexible do you think building is?

This is the one I expected to hurt the most with only a 5.55, which is bordering on "this is just long" to "i'm building one team and i can't be arsed to build any more than that". From the chat i've been seeing, Mega Diancie is probably the major cause in this, but that isn't to say that other stuff like Sapblocking and SNR stuff aren't also to blame (if you couldn't tell, this issue is almost entirely a defensive one).

Q4: What do you think about Mega Diancie?

The big fish. This has been pretty heavily pointed at as the source of most of the meta's centralization due to the very poor selection of good Fairy resists that don't drop to V-create or Rock move (let alone ones that Specs doesn't just bypass). Diancie's always been there since FullDex started, but it only really took off when the mega brokens like MMY were gone and has continued to be almost impossible to midground since; even as late as DLC 2, it's getting buffs from the likes of Blue Flare. The majority of people supporting action for this, with just under 60% wanting something soon, is a pretty clear sign.

Q5: What do you think about Liquid Ooze?

Perhaps more of an even split than something like this would entail. 20.7% quickban is a pretty big threshold, meaning this is something people are having problems with. Spoiler alert is we're almost definitely doing tiering stuff on Diancie, so this will likely sit on the backburner until that gets done; if it gets banned, will likely cut Sap demand at least a little bit (reducing how damning Ooze is to activate).

Q6: What do you think about Sunsteel Strike?

The three things below were largely thrown in as points of interest; the council thought they could be potentially problematic prior to DLC2, so we wanted to see how people were feeling with them, and it seems they're fine as-is. Sunsteel without Kartana largely seems under control, as things need Steel STAB to actually do any damage with it, and the Steel attackers on offer (mainly Mega Lucario) aren't particularly powerful; Kartana's ban also means Fur Coat Water-types are usable again, which also slows this down quite significantly.

Q7: What do you think about Moongeist Beam?

Even despite not being high enough for tiering action, it's a pretty high jump from Sunsteel. The main attacker in question here is likely Flutter Mane; Specs + Beads of Ruin allows Moongeist to 2HKO Ice Scales Arceus, practically meaning the only things dodging the 2HKO are Normal-types (or Yveltal if you win every predict). How problematic this is seems to be largely tied to Flutter Mane though, at least for the minute, thus limiting how problematic the move is via Flutter's frailty and the existence of RegenVest.

Q8: What do you think about Take Heart?

Topsy hasn't completely made the problem go away, but it seems to have at least moved it further away from being suspected. This is still being used majorly by Arceus formes to boost while ignoring status, and even with Topsy it can be a chore to even force damage on them if you don't have a faster attacker. Secret Sword is also a new addition to Arceus-Ghost's arsenal that may be raising the votes here.

Q9: Any further comments?

• Mortal Spin - 2 votes
• Salt Cure - 2 votes
• Setup moves - 2 votes
• Free Zygarde-C (we can't, sorry) - 1 vote
• Stall teams in general - 1 vote
• Mega Garchomp - 1 vote

That concludes the survey results! We'll have some follow-up tiering action at some point tomorrow. Thanks for reading!

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

ended up delaying these results a couple days due to being busy + title update that dropped earlier today (it didn't add anything)

Q1: How much are you enjoying the current meta?
View attachment 591086
Average is ~6.45, which is a pretty substantial drop from last time's 7.475. Given the results later in the survey, teambuilder rigidity seems to be probably the main contributing factor. The DLC also not bringing back staples like Thousand Waves and Spectral Thief could also lead into staleness being a factor, but we can't exactly change that.

Q2: How competitive do you think the meta is?
View attachment 591089
Average is ~6.55, still down from last time's 6.9 but less so. This could also be due to building constraints (as people simply optimize their winpaths as time goes on), but stuff cropping up like Liquid Ooze or Salt Cure could feasibly be why this is down. If i'm honest it's usually raw cheese that brings this down, but there really isn't a ton right now, so i'm not exactly sure why the results are the way they are.

Q3: How flexible do you think building is?
View attachment 591091
This is the one I expected to hurt the most with only a 5.55, which is bordering on "this is just long" to "i'm building one team and i can't be arsed to build any more than that". From the chat i've been seeing, Mega Diancie is probably the major cause in this, but that isn't to say that other stuff like Sapblocking and SNR stuff aren't also to blame (if you couldn't tell, this issue is almost entirely a defensive one).

Q4: What do you think about Mega Diancie?
View attachment 591093
The big fish. This has been pretty heavily pointed at as the source of most of the meta's centralization due to the very poor selection of good Fairy resists that don't drop to V-create or Rock move (let alone ones that Specs doesn't just bypass). Diancie's always been there since FullDex started, but it only really took off when the mega brokens like MMY were gone and has continued to be almost impossible to midground since; even as late as DLC 2, it's getting buffs from the likes of Blue Flare. The majority of people supporting action for this, with just under 60% wanting something soon, is a pretty clear sign.

Q5: What do you think about Liquid Ooze?
View attachment 591097
Perhaps more of an even split than something like this would entail. 20.7% quickban is a pretty big threshold, meaning this is something people are having problems with. Spoiler alert is we're almost definitely doing tiering stuff on Diancie, so this will likely sit on the backburner until that gets done; if it gets banned, will likely cut Sap demand at least a little bit (reducing how damning Ooze is to activate).

Q6: What do you think about Sunsteel Strike?
View attachment 591100
The three things below were largely thrown in as points of interest; the council thought they could be potentially problematic prior to DLC2, so we wanted to see how people were feeling with them, and it seems they're fine as-is. Sunsteel without Kartana largely seems under control, as things need Steel STAB to actually do any damage with it, and the Steel attackers on offer (mainly Mega Lucario) aren't particularly powerful; Kartana's ban also means Fur Coat Water-types are usable again, which also slows this down quite significantly.

Q7: What do you think about Moongeist Beam?
View attachment 591103
Even despite not being high enough for tiering action, it's a pretty high jump from Sunsteel. The main attacker in question here is likely Flutter Mane; Specs + Beads of Ruin allows Moongeist to 2HKO Ice Scales Arceus, practically meaning the only things dodging the 2HKO are Normal-types (or Yveltal if you win every predict). How problematic this is seems to be largely tied to Flutter Mane though, at least for the minute, thus limiting how problematic the move is via Flutter's frailty and the existence of RegenVest.

Q8: What do you think about Take Heart?
View attachment 591107
Topsy hasn't completely made the problem go away, but it seems to have at least moved it further away from being suspected. This is still being used majorly by Arceus formes to boost while ignoring status, and even with Topsy it can be a chore to even force damage on them if you don't have a faster attacker. Secret Sword is also a new addition to Arceus-Ghost's arsenal that may be raising the votes here.

Q9: Any further comments?

• Mortal Spin - 2 votes
• Salt Cure - 2 votes
• Setup moves - 2 votes
• Free Zygarde-C (we can't, sorry) - 1 vote
• Stall teams in general - 1 vote
• Mega Garchomp - 1 vote

That concludes the survey results! We'll have some follow-up tiering action at some point tomorrow. Thanks for reading!

Honestly im not surprised to see the results, Team building feels awful and its all just defensive team building, all the threats or wallbreakers are gone, people can run stupid stall teams with for example Chansey imposter and Blissey Regenerator, and you'll never break through, it honestly is sad to see that since all the bans and changes, its just made hackmons less fun to play with now the meta being more of making an impenetrable walling team, with no counter-play or little to no counter-play. Even now diancie is probably going to get banned because of how oppressive it is to the remaining wall-breakers/offensive pokemon

this is the thing i've been worried about for a while, seeing all the bans of the strongest offensive pokemon but no action taken to the strongest defensive pokemon, its far more centralized now as a constant for defensive play or risk losing due to constant chip damage on your team, and once that gets going its an upward battle to get the advantage back. Defensive play as gotten far far more stronger and so has stall, others are seeing this now more then ever, which is good but I'm sure what i'm saying is a minority view but we are slowing moving into a meta of strictly defensive play/stall meta, with all the best wall-breakers gone. If i was to propose changes to help, i would say a lot of things need to be unbanned in a mass to shake up the meta, then move on from there, because as it sits, the meta is mostly defensive/stall based with not many offensive options, with really the most you can do with offensive is setup and boosting moves, such as no-retreat and clangorous soul then power trip/stored power. While i think getting rid of Mdiancie could help right now, its only going to be kicking the can down the road, Mega-garchomp is probably going to get sacked next and its going to make the current problem of defensive play being dominant, even worse.

 

[Akira 153]

Honestly im not surprised to see the results, Team building feels awful and its all just defensive team building, all the threats or wallbreakers are gone, people can run stupid stall teams with for example Chansey imposter and Blissey Regenerator, and you'll never break through, it honestly is sad to see that since all the bans and changes, its just made hackmons less fun to play with now the meta being more of making an impenetrable walling team, with no counter-play or little to no counter-play. Even now diancie is probably going to get banned because of how oppressive it is to the remaining wall-breakers/offensive pokemon

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

View attachment 593367

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-mega-diancie-suspect.3710859/post-9860052
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-mega-diancie-suspect.3710859/post-9871415

pretty obvious you think im "clueless" which is hilarious because im not the only one saying this is becoming a stall meta, im used to this routine of my posts getting trolled but jesus, me going into the om room on showdown must've really pissed some people off

 

[Akira 153]

OK to adress this slightly more seriously.
First, the "clueless" thing is just the meme format, please don't take it as a personal attack, while it's true I think your argument is wrong I don't think you have nothing to stand on.

BH is a tier that's often been accused of being stall heavy even by people who are otherwise pretty experienced in mons. I think this mostly comes from how BH, while obviously not being completely alien to standard mons gameplay, does lend itself to defensive gameplay very easily due to every mon having the tools necessary to reverse progress that are normally restricted, in addition to max EVs that make everything very bulky.
Remind you of another meta? I don't have much experience in gen 2 OU but that's another tier that is often accused of being stall hell due to resttalk (universal reliable healing), omnipresent leftovers without much in the way of chip, and max EVs making everything super bulky.
However, in both tiers, anyone who has a lot of experience will say that offense is very powerful, it just doesn't quite look the same as in other tiers, and needs to be approached with a different mindset.

Offense (that is to say, offensive balance teams, hyper offense is a whole other beast) in BH needs to account for two major differences from standard play: the presence of Imposter and the fact that any progress made can and will be easily reversed. As such, you need to either use explosive power that is tricky to position and Improof, maintain constant pressure which requires consistently outplaying your opponent, or find ways to deny your opponent from reversing your progress.

This is by no means impossible, you just can't do it as easily as you can in tiers where most progress sticks, so even suboptimal sets can at least do something. In BH, a bad set will never make significant progress outside of catching your opponent off-guard with cheese or unpredictable coverage (the latter being pretty hard to do with Imposter as such a good scouting tool).

Basically, In BH, balanced offense is the playstyle with (in my opinion) the highest skill floor to use to its fullest extent. Not to say that anyone who struggles to build offensive teams is bad, simply that they might not have the tier-specific experience necessary.

It's pretty telling that the majority of the top players feel that offense and not stall is what is overwhelming, and it's not just the stall players who gain from offense losing power who feel this way. In fact, in the case of Diancie, hard stall is able to fit multiple checks to it and therefore isn't actually too worried about it, it's defensive balance teams that struggle, since they don't have quite the walling power to handle it, nor do they have the offensive power to win faster, especially with Dia able to scare out so many offensive threats with ESpeed.

TLDR: I don't think people who say stall is broken are dumb, they just aren't approaching the tier from the right angle.

 

[Tea Guzzler]

all the threats or wallbreakers are gone

this isn't true. the broken ones are banned because they're broken (so the remaining ones are worse in comparison obviously), but there are still things like kyurem-b, mchomp, mdia, etern, flutter, unecro, and more that can still cause serious damage.

seeing all the bans of the strongest offensive pokemon but no action taken to the strongest defensive pokemon

this isn't how bans work. it's not a balancing act of banning 5 offensive things and then banning 5 defensive things for the sole purpose of equalizing it; you ban what is broken / uncompetitive.

Defensive play as gotten far far more stronger and so has stall, others are seeing this now more then ever, which is good but I'm sure what i'm saying is a minority view but we are slowing moving into a meta of strictly defensive play/stall meta, with all the best wall-breakers gone.

defensive play is naturally going to get stronger with offensive threats going, especially when 3 of these were mixed attackers (some of stall's most problematic matchups, since you are much less able to muscle past with raw one-sided bulk, like blissey, or with an advantage typing into your choice bander or something). the meta being strictly defensive play in the way you describe is just not true; basically every teams need furscales, yes, but the tier is balanced with this in mind. stall in and of itself is only spearheaded by a small group of people, and by the nature of threats in the tier currently you can say with near certainty they're using some combination of mega audino/blissey/arceus-poison/imposter/registeel or celesteela/filler.

If i was to propose changes to help, i would say a lot of things need to be unbanned in a mass to shake up the meta, then move on from there, because as it sits, the meta is mostly defensive/stall based with not many offensive options

this really is not likely to fix anything at all. things like mega mewtwo y and protean were pretty clearly broken when they were banned; these offensive options have only been buffed since that time, with bulwark and topsy-turvy being the only real defensive additions vs. bolt strike, blue flare, sunsteel strike, moongeist beam, psycho boost, even more niche options like malignant chain.the cycle would almost definitely end up with the same things that were banned before being banned again, leading to essentially the same position we're in now with maybe some slight adjustments.

with really the most you can do with offensive is setup and boosting moves, such as no-retreat and clangorous soul then power trip/stored power

these are funnily enough not actually that good into stall; power trippers just aren't particularly good in general due to their poor imposter matchup (with the only real option being the simple yveltal set, which you somehow have to get set up against mons that enjoy spamming salt cure, haze, and pivot moves), and stored power users don't have the moveslots to hit everything they're likely to encounter (lunala just packs in to the very common blissey, arceus-ghost can't really break special boosting ice scales arceus + only gunk shot ever actually beats non-fc mega audino). stall's biggest bane is either a choice breaker they have an abhorrent matchup against (which you can't control) and a scary mixed attacker that's got the coverage to navigate defensive options. the risks to stall for sapblocking also means only their fur coater can usually afford strength sap, which you can potentially exploit with either a physical breaker + win the ooze bait, or by starving down recover PP.

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

OK to adress this slightly more seriously.
First, the "clueless" thing is just the meme format, please don't take it as a personal attack, while it's true I think your argument is wrong I don't think you have nothing to stand on.

BH is a tier that's often been accused of being stall heavy even by people who are otherwise pretty experienced in mons. I think this mostly comes from how BH, while obviously not being completely alien to standard mons gameplay, does lend itself to defensive gameplay very easily due to every mon having the tools necessary to reverse progress that are normally restricted, in addition to max EVs that make everything very bulky.
Remind you of another meta? I don't have much experience in gen 2 OU but that's another tier that is often accused of being stall hell due to resttalk (umiversal reliable healing), omnipresent leftovers without much in the way of chip, and max EVs making everything super bulky.
However, in both tiers, anyone who has a lot of experience will say that offense is very powerful, it just doesn't quite look the same as in other tiers, and needs to be approached with a different mindset.

Offense (that is to say, offensive balance teams, hyper offense is a whole other beast) in BH needs to account for two major differences from standard play: the presence of Imposter and the fact that any progress made can and will be easily reversed. As such, you need to either use explosive power that is tricky to position and Improof, maintain constant pressure which requires consistently outplaying your opponent, or find ways to deny your opponent from reversing your progress.

This is by no means impossible, you just can't do it as easily as you can in tiers where most progress sticks, so even suboptimal sets can at least do something. In BH, a bad set will never make significant progress outside of catching your opponent off-guard with cheese or unpredictable coverage (the latter being pretty hard to do with Imposter as such a good scouting tool).

Basically, In BH, balanced offense is the playstyle with (in my opinion) the highest skill floor to use to its fullest extent. Not to say that anyone who struggles to build offensive teams is bad, simply that they might not have the tier-specific experience necessary.

It's pretty telling that the majority of the top players feel that offense and not stall is what is overwhelming, and it's not just the stall players who gain from offense losing power who feel this way. In fact, in the case of Diancie, hard stall is able to fit multiple checks to it and therefore isn't actually too worried about it, it's defensive balance teams that struggle, since they don't have quite the walling power to handle it, nor do they have the offensive power to win faster, especially with Dia able to scare out so many offensive threats with ESpeed.

TLDR: I don't think people who say stall is broken are dumb, they just aren't approaching the tier from the right angle.

all of what you said I agree with, and perhaps I should clarify, I understand it may look like I’m just getting into hackmons but I’ve played the tier at least a bit, Pure hackmons Going to top 10 (stopped playing, was too stressful but got to 1670 irc a year ago) Gen8bh with over 700 battles peaking 1430, and Gen9BH with over 700 battles not saying any of this is impressive nor says I’m good, etc

when I say “Stall meta” I mean more of the hyper defensive end of the meta becoming more prominent. I’m not even against MDiancie being banned, It is pretty annoying to deal with. if it just keeps going down the line of what’s too Strong right now, its Just gonna reinforce the problem.

 

[TTTech]

Greeting fellow BH players!

With the recent discussion of stall in BH, it is of importance that the BH Stall Council, being me and onyx, have a word in this. After hours of grueling and haunting discussion between the council, we have come to the conclusion that stall is... not as strong as people think it is?! W-What?! Impossible! But oh yes my fellow bh players (and 1000s-1200s rated players), we have come to this conclusion after careful consideration and thinking after this 1 crucial piece of evidence that NO ONE has thought of and that evidence is... Stall is literally mid this gen and many people don't even know how to play vs it because they're just simply not good. Thank you for listening to the BH Stall Council. Verdict has been announced!

 

[Shay's Fate]

Big Stall isn't as big this gen (In every single meta). Every recovery move sucks in one way or another (Ooze/PP/Having to use Bulwark or Baneful)

Also, this is definitely a thing

 

[IMPERIUM OF MAN]

View attachment 593397

Greeting fellow BH players!

With the recent discussion of stall in BH, it is of importance that the BH Stall Council, being me and onyx, have a word in this. After hours of grueling and haunting discussion between the council, we have come to the conclusion that stall is... not as strong as people think it is?! W-What?! Impossible! But oh yes my fellow bh players (and 1000s-1200s rated players), we have come to this conclusion after careful consideration and thinking after this 1 crucial piece of evidence that NO ONE has thought of and that evidence is... Stall is literally mid this gen and many people don't even know how to play vs it because they're just simply not good. Thank you for listening to the BH Stall Council. Verdict has been announced!

the kinda shit I’m used to

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

Honestly im not surprised to see the results, Team building feels awful and its all just defensive team building, all the threats or wallbreakers are gone, people can run stupid stall teams with for example Chansey imposter and Blissey Regenerator, and you'll never break through, it honestly is sad to see that since all the bans and changes, its just made hackmons less fun to play with now the meta being more of making an impenetrable walling team, with no counter-play or little to no counter-play. Even now diancie is probably going to get banned because of how oppressive it is to the remaining wall-breakers/offensive pokemon

this is the thing i've been worried about for a while, seeing all the bans of the strongest offensive pokemon but no action taken to the strongest defensive pokemon, its far more centralized now as a constant for defensive play or risk losing due to constant chip damage on your team, and once that gets going its an upward battle to get the advantage back. Defensive play as gotten far far more stronger and so has stall, others are seeing this now more then ever, which is good but I'm sure what i'm saying is a minority view but we are slowing moving into a meta of strictly defensive play/stall meta, with all the best wall-breakers gone. If i was to propose changes to help, i would say a lot of things need to be unbanned in a mass to shake up the meta, then move on from there, because as it sits, the meta is mostly defensive/stall based with not many offensive options, with really the most you can do with offensive is setup and boosting moves, such as no-retreat and clangorous soul then power trip/stored power. While i think getting rid of Mdiancie could help right now, its only going to be kicking the can down the road, Mega-garchomp is probably going to get sacked next and its going to make the current problem of defensive play being dominant, even worse.

This misses the target on what makes stall effective by billions of kilometers. By this logic when Shell Smash, Belly Drum, Shed Tail, Slaking, Zacian, Calyrex, Poison Heal, and Quiver Dance were all legal stall would be worse compared to now. However, this is simply not true. Here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rank-1-on-ladder-gen-9-bh-gxe-record.3712115/ is perhaps the far and away the most consistent stall build of all of gen 9. And the very elements you are suggesting to unban allowed it to be so. The presence of the elements I outlined created a homogenous meta that is comically easy to take advantage of. It simply doesn't matter if one has the strongest breakers allowed if they snuff out any meta diversity. Stall adores that type of meta. It simply just runs the one hard counter to whatever the few viable offensive options are and goes to town. If you really want stall gone from the meta you want these centralizing elements gone to keep the meta varied enough to where one can't just bring a few hard counters and get rewarded for it. Diancie and Kartarna are such elements. Stall isn't afraid of them in the slightest: it just runs a hard counter like Arceus Fire, Flash Fire Steels, FC Fire types, Baneful Bunker etc . . . and wins by default. However, a meta with a higher variety of viable offensive options is something that weakens stall as there is more to prepare for and a wider variety of viable wincons vs stall that will also work against other teamstyles.

 

[Notgamingreally]

First off, stronger wallbreakers are stronger because they... Break walls stronger... Woah, crazy thought right?

Secondly, the option was always there to run weaker (or rather, more niche) wallbreakers to break those "Uber consistent walls" you seem to blather on about.

Finally, fucking baneful bunker is a joke and you know it.

Wha
It doesn’t exceptionally matter for stall if strong wallbreakers are available if it can fit the hard counters that balance *cant* fit and that’s what onyx is saying
The more niche options always existed but they would now live in a meta with less competition i.e why mega bee when you have caly as an option (which then makes stall more consistent by being less concerned for the nichemons because nichemons get even more tiny compared to the good picks)
Also what

 

[Onyx Onix 7]

First off, stronger wallbreakers are stronger because they... Break walls stronger... Woah, crazy thought right?

Secondly, the option was always there to run weaker (or rather, more niche) wallbreakers to break those "Uber consistent walls" you seem to blather on about.

Finally, fucking baneful bunker is a joke and you know it.

Not necessarily. Different wallbreakers break different walls. It doesn't matter if you have a Mega Lucario or Kartarna they are walled all the same by Arecus Fire. However, Mega Gyrados shatters Arceus Fire if only one could use it . . oh wait there's Mega Diancie and Kartarna so you autlose against everything else if you use it. It doesn't matter if you have a Mega Diancie or Arceus Fairy, they both lose to Steel types all the same. That's why variety matters more than raw power, when you can viably use breakers that attack with different types and different angles stall struggles as it is spread thinner accounting for more at once and there is a higher likelihood of it not having the tools to handle a threat. While there is technically always the option to run more niche wall breakers to break a specific stall core, but then you autolose to everything else and / or pigeonholed into specific structures because everything else is more powerful against the rest of the meta. (Including your team). All banning blatantly over-centralizing stuff (including wallbreakers and setup like Shell Smash) does gives the more niche options you suggested to beat stall a chance vs against the rest of the meta. Back to Baneful Bunker: Baneful Bunker like everything in BH is a joke until you to lose it. Also to demonstrate your expertise in understanding and countering BH stall you should blather on a bit about that 40-1 ultra-consistent team you've been using to beat stall or play with stall. I'm sure the thread would love to hear about your methods and your brilliant strategies related to beating or creating stall.

 

[tzaur]

While stall would appreciate an Ooze ban, I don't think it + a Diancie ban would enable these impenetrable stall teams alluded to in this thread. In the absence of those two, I think the following would still fare very well against stall--if played at least somewhat competently, obviously:

• Mold Breaker users (, , ). Can still pair with Magic Bounce if/when Liquid Ooze gets banned.
• MG+LO users (, , /, , anything, really)
• Our remaining mixed attackers (, , , )
• Sunsteel Strike ( , , ,, )
• Taunt + setup/Taunt + partial trapping (imagination; can probably run Psychic Noise on mons such as , , etc. in lieu of Taunt). Best strat against stalls, semi-stalls, and fat balances IMO. Don't think I've dropped a match against stall when using some variation of this especially in tandem with the above.
• RegenVest Doom Desire () + physical breaker that threatens the DD switchins.

In fact, I'd even argue that stall struggles more to account for a lot of these than it does for M-Diancie or did for Kartana. The other banned mons were universally oppressive and arguably more so to balances than they were to stall, as Chessking/Onyx mentioned.

it's not like you guys were trying to petition for an Ooze ban so that you could get better more reliable stall lmao

Stall's viability has very little if anything at all to do with people wanting Liquid Ooze gone. Read Chessking's post that IMPERIUM OF MAN linked. Uncompetitive. Extremely fucking silly way of sap blocking especially when Strength Sap is much more prevalent with Shore Up PP nerfed. Even with Imposter around, it's not difficult to conceal the ability until it's too late and the Sap user already dies/loses a substantial chunk of HP to the point of no longer checking a certain threat or improofing a physical mon on its own team. Even with it revealed, Sap users still have to deal with bullshit 50/50s with the worst case scenario being that they die immediately for clicking a move--versus losing some momentum via Magic Bounce or sapping on a Chansey and at least getting another opportunity find another opening to get some HP back later on. In my opinion, this ability has been an issue since Gorilla Tactics was around; it just went under the radar due to it being uncommon despite it still being a lethal strat back then.

Stall is literally mid this gen and many people don't even know how to play vs it because they're just simply not good. Thank you for listening to the BH Stall Council.

Seconded...haven't been very impressed by hard stall builds since pre-fulldex. Even then, I'd reach further back and say it was at its best with Poison Heal and/or Good as Gold + Substitute Zacian-C around.

 

[Shaikidow]

View attachment 593397

Greeting fellow BH players!

With the recent discussion of stall in BH, it is of importance that the BH Stall Council, being me and onyx, have a word in this. After hours of grueling and haunting discussion between the council, we have come to the conclusion that stall is... not as strong as people think it is?! W-What?! Impossible! But oh yes my fellow bh players (and 1000s-1200s rated players), we have come to this conclusion after careful consideration and thinking after this 1 crucial piece of evidence that NO ONE has thought of and that evidence is... Stall is literally mid this gen and many people don't even know how to play vs it because they're just simply not good. Thank you for listening to the BH Stall Council. Verdict has been announced!

So, what you're saying is, BH9 just has a higher skill floor than some other notable formats (which I can only presume is in no small part due to how its inherent mix&matching nature results in a monolithical optimisation of teambuilding), so low-to-mid-level experimentation with offensive sets is, by comparison, more severely punished by mid-level players who use the tried-and-tested stall sets, even though the high-level meta isn't like that at all? Or, in other words, in BH9, for relative beginners, stall is generally not insignificantly easier to get into and play than offence?

Honestly, even if you do blame the players' dissatisfactions with the state of the current meta on their skill issues, I think you can at the very least see how their annoyances aren't some dreaded pinnacle of unreasonability. As a severe BH7 nostalgiac who accidentally discovered the Unburden MegaTTar sets all on his own, I might be reading this wrong, but man, I feel like being an aggression-minded Johnny among Spike wannabes just plain... sucks in this gen's BH. Oh well, the format is what the format is.

 

[SuperIdolDeXiarong]

While stall would appreciate an Ooze ban, I don't think it + a Diancie ban would enable these impenetrable stall teams alluded to in this thread. In the absence of those two, I think the following would still fare very well against stall--if played at least somewhat competently, obviously:

• Mold Breaker users (, , ). Can still pair with Magic Bounce if/when Liquid Ooze gets banned.
• MG+LO users (, , /, , anything, really)
• Our remaining mixed attackers (, , , )
• Sunsteel Strike ( , , ,, )
• Taunt + setup/Taunt + partial trapping (imagination; can probably run Psychic Noise on mons such as , , etc. in lieu of Taunt). Best strat against stalls, semi-stalls, and fat balances IMO. Don't think I've dropped a match against stall when using some variation of this especially in tandem with the above.
• RegenVest Doom Desire () + physical breaker that threatens the DD switchins.

In fact, I'd even argue that stall struggles more to account for a lot of these than it does for M-Diancie or did for Kartana. The other banned mons were universally oppressive and arguably more so to balances than they were to stall, as Chessking/Onyx mentioned.



Stall's viability has very little if anything at all to do with people wanting Liquid Ooze gone. Read Chessking's post that IMPERIUM OF MAN linked. Uncompetitive. Extremely fucking silly way of sap blocking especially when Strength Sap is much more prevalent with Shore Up PP nerfed. Even with Imposter around, it's not difficult to conceal the ability until it's too late and the Sap user already dies/loses a substantial chunk of HP to the point of no longer checking a certain threat or improofing a physical mon on its own team. Even with it revealed, Sap users still have to deal with bullshit 50/50s with the worst case scenario being that they die immediately for clicking a move--versus losing some momentum via Magic Bounce or sapping on a Chansey and at least getting another opportunity find another opening to get some HP back later on. In my opinion, this ability has been an issue since Gorilla Tactics was around; it just went under the radar due to it being uncommon despite it still being a lethal strat back then.



Seconded...haven't been very impressed by hard stall builds since pre-fulldex. Even then, I'd reach further back and say it was at its best with Poison Heal and/or Good as Gold + Substitute Zacian-C around.

drop the fire arceus pookie

 

[rightclicker]

Hello, today I'll post about what has gotta be the dumbest mon of all time

the return (Flutter Mane) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast
- Pain Split

The Return.
This is just PFD Flare Boost Flutter but with Moongeist > Astral. If you forgot what Flare Boost Flutter did (or didn't play during that time), allow me to demonstrate.

Flare Boost + Flame Orb gives you a pseudo status immunity, a stat boost Imposter can't copy and the ability to freely switch into Knocks. Pain Split is also a burst healing option with your low HP stat (also means Imposter can't use it reliably), and Ghost typing means Imposter can't switch in safely, and combos very well with Fairy.

Now, with the addition of Moongeist Beam, Flutter Mane goes from a decent wallbreaker to downright stupid. It can remove the very bane of Flutter's existence: Ice Scales users. Before, +2 Astral Barrage can't even guraranteed 2HKO Ice Scales Arceus formes (55% max) to dealing a blistering 79% minimum. Ho-Oh, another key Ice Scales user, takes Astral Barrages with relative ease but needs to think twice vs. Moongeist if it's chipped and switching into a Nasty Plot. POgre was an absolute joke of a MU before, now it's turned into a joke itself.

Pain Split, as mentioned, is a burst healing option that Imposter can't use reliably. It also allows you to heavily chip down would-be hard counters like Magic Guard Blissey.

This is, by the way, not even mentioning Flutter's actually decent bulk on the special side, and a lot of these Ice Scales mons are special attackers. This allows Flutter to actually survive, say, POgre's Steam Eruption, random Judgements, etc.

And still, it does not end there. This thing has a speed of 405, letting it outspeed basically every single relevant special wall. So, instead of them outspeeding you and simply heal up, you outspeed them and they just die.

All of this, with very simple Knock support for Assault Vests and Ability Shields, along with Improofing done by merely Chansey, screams death.

Have Fun!

 

[IAMLEGENDhalo]

How does one actually beat imposter Chansey? Defensive teams get eaten by abusing your own regenerator and healing moves over and over with infinite pp and set up sweepers get utterly shut down by it as well. I've lost multiple games thanks to Chansey's running spooky plate specifically to counter any counterplay it might have. I feel like I'm at a loss on how to beat this thing

 

[rightclicker]

How does one actually beat imposter Chansey? Defensive teams get eaten by abusing your own regenerator and healing moves over and over with infinite pp and set up sweepers get utterly shut down by it as well. I've lost multiple games thanks to Chansey's running spooky plate specifically to counter any counterplay it might have. I feel like I'm at a loss on how to beat this thing

Imposter proof your mons.
You can either do this by self-proofing or Improofing with teammates. Basically, you just need to make sure Imposter doesn't roll over or grab too much utility off your team.
Tea's article explains this in more detail.