Azelf (Substitute + U-Turn)

Status
Not open for further replies.

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Hi, guys. I've been using this set for a couple of weeks now, and I think it should open a spot on Azelf's mostly untouched analysis.

STATUS: INCOMPLETE

Needs proofreading and some substitutions.

dpmfa482.png

[SET]
Name: In-N-Out
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: U-turn
Move 3: Flamethrower
Move 4: Psychic / Hidden Power Ground / Explosion
Item: Leftovers/Expert Belt/Insect Plate
Nature: Naive
ev's: 72 Atk / 216 Spe / 222 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>While Azelf is mostly seen as a fast, reliable lead or a frightening coverage sweeper, this set is a different take on the speed-oriented pixie. At first glance, this Azelf may seem less hard-hitting than the usual Azelf. However, the core purpose of this set is customarily scouting and obtaining opponent information while still maintaining the potential to hit hard on both sides of the spectrum.</p>

<p>Substitute and U-turn are the keys to supplying both team support and some sweeping potential. Because you are not using this Azelf as a lead and instead as a team player, this set takes on the camouflage of the usual Azelf: a fast, hard-hitting sweeper. Since certain Pokémon, such as Infernape, Breloom, and Swampert most likely predictably switches in fear of an OHKO, to the suitable Azelf counter, you can utilize this golden opportunity to set up using Substitute. The basic strategy is from there, you can exploit U-Turn for hurting common switch-ins, or dispose of a Pokemon with Flamethower or another move in appropriate game situations. The purpose of U-turn, as briefly clarified above, is essential to the effectiveness of this set. Common switch-ins, such as Latias and Tyranitar, cannot hit Azelf upon the Substitute being set up, and are hit super-effectively by a strong U-Turn before Azelf can be revealed. The best part of this is that Azelf is outsped by the ever-common Scarf Latias, Scarf Rotom-A, and Scarf Tyranitar. Normally, this is a worse-type scenario for some frightening threats like Salamence, Gyarados, and last but not least Lucario, all of whom are stopped by revenge killing. Behind the Substitute, while utilizing a super effective U-turn, Azelf can determine whether a Pokemon is choiced or not by the order of attacks, and switch to the appropriate counter.</p>

<p>One of Azelf's best qualities is its amazing speed, which is only outshined by a small bracket of the speed tier. Should an unusually fast Pokemon (usually by Scarf) outspeed you and break your substitute, this is the perfect chance to bring in an appropriate counter and remove the supposed Scarfer from play. If used in conjunction with Pursuiters and revenge killers, what should be opponent's most valuable teammate is gone for good. If the Pokemon is not scarved, Azelf can still bring in the correct counter for that Pokemon and finish it off. Azelf’s teammates can then set up a sweep with the right Pokemon defeated, while Azelf can be kept to sweep or scout another threat. This substantially makes Azelf an excellent lure and often a killer of Latias, Rotom-A, Gengar, Scizor, and Tyranitar, several of the most common threats in the metagame.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS AND TEAM OPTIONS]
<p>While it is technically difficult to counter this particular Azelf because of its ability to escape unscathed, there are a few particular mentions. If Azelf does not have a substitute available, he is prone to revenge killing from the likes of Scarved threats, faster killers, and priority-using ones. Unsurprisingly, Scizor is a threat to an Azelf that has used at least one broken substitute or has taken damage other than Stealth Rocks; it has the ability to OHKO Azelf with a Choice Banded Bullet Punch before it hits with Flamethrower. Of course, the other priority sweepers, such as Lucario, Dragonite, and Mamoswine should all be wary of trying to defeat Azelf because their priority is weaker than Scizor’s, and Azelf can dispatch of them with the right move.</p>

<p>More counters are the previously mentioned Scarved Latias and Tyranitar. Assuming Azelf is not behind a substitute, Latias can defeat Azelf using the risky Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse, while Tyranitar easily defeats fleeing In-N-Out Azelf with Pursuit unless defeated by a Hidden Power. Azelf always must tread carefully of Weavile, Aerodactyl, Starmie, and U-Turn users. Blissey annoys this Azelf to no end because it takes little damage from all of its attacks, excluding Explosion.</p>

<p>The most effective way of countering these threats is though the use of entry hazards. Because Azelf is constantly switching out to the opponent’s counters, the opposing team will have to switch out on their own constantly in order to avoid being hit by sweepers or walled. This will allow Azelf to actually beat Blissey without Explosion, deal about over 58% damage minimum to Tyranitar (assuming Stealth Rock and three layers of spikes), and generally annoy the opponent's switch ins. Azelf’s team can use this to advantage so a sweep is more possible by Azelf’s teammates or even itself. Viable teammates include Scizor, Tyranitar, Flygon, Skarmory, and a mixed sweeper.</p>

<p>Scizor covers many threats after they take damage from both entry hazards and Azelf’s U-Turn, and also provides nice resistances to the common threats. A combination of both In-N-Out and Choice Band U-Turns should force an opponent to take considerable damage or switch out. This combination also works well with Choice Scarf Flygon, who can revenge kill opponents faster than Azelf. Should a choiced attacker try to hit Azelf, it can U-Turn to Skarmory, who also provides nice resistances in addition to entry Hazards. This Azelf in particular works best with Torment Skarmory, which can, by itself, annoy an opponent to no end using its resistance against choiced moves and Protect while utilizing Spikes. The best offensive set-up partner is Lucario, who can take a choiced Crunch or Pursuit from Tyranitar, resists many priority moves, and break many walls with his own Swords-Danced priority and Close Combat. Mixed sweepers or an anti-stall Pokemon, if facing a stall team, can compliment Azelf well due to it defeating nearly anything on stall except for Blissey. While Tentacruel, Skarmory, Roserade, Foretress, and some variations of Tyranitar are taken care of by Azelf, a mixed sweeper in conjunction can take care of Blissey and possibly some of the threats Azelf can handle in the process.</p>

<p>In late-game situations, Azelf can reminisce its role as a late-game sweeper and use its choices of Flamethrower and Psychic or any other coverage moves. Bear in mind that this particular Azelf does not sweep as effectively as a sweeper and should keep its role as a scout for most purposes. A coverage move can replace Psychic if one wants to counter something in particular.</p>

<p>The EV's are designed to power up U-Turn to soften threats in addition to maintaining a great Special Attack and Speed. The Attack investment guarantees that 4 HP Latias using Leftovers will be KO'd by a switch-in to Stealth Rock and two U-turns provided it switches out of a revenge killer. 216 Speed EV's allow Azelf to outspeed positive-natured base 110 opponents, and the rest is poured into Special attack to heighten Azelf's sweeping potential alone.</p>
 
I dont think life orb is viable as an item at all, unless it secures certain kos. Asuming you set up a sub then uturn, you would lose 35% health, and with SR it adds up to 47%, meaning you cant set up the second time with any weather going, and you cant switch in much at all. I would say insect plate could be an option due to using u turn alot, however.
 
Pretty much sounding the same thing. The major skepticism with Life Orb is taking 47% just within one "setup". If Sandstorm is in play, make it 53% if it came off of a revenge, or 59% if it switched into Earthquake or something. In this scenario, with regards to scouting, Expert Belt seems to be the best option here if you want the offense.

EDIT: I'm going to hit this up in QC for now. You have a skeleton at least, so you have the reasoning behind the set.
 
Agreeing, Life Orb probably isn't a viable option because of all the HP that's going to be constantly lost. Leftovers/Expert Belt are the better options.
 
i think the premise of the set is good, but as it was already said, life orb will simply kill you too quickly. I would suggest leftovers over expert belt as well, unless it actually gives a ko that you aren't getting without it? it's not like celebi will be doing much, sub would block twave/grass knot from breaking, and flamethrower + u-turn will ko.

leftovers is definitely the premiere item to make sure you don't lose all your health to quickly (a reliable gengar/machamp killer is hard to find these days)
 
No prob, guys. I'll remove Life Orb and place Leftovers first before Expert Belt. I'm also going to edit the EV's....though Azelf's special attacking's getting dimmer.

@towelie

Hm...I could post it as an alternate spread, but that would mean I would have to sacrifice a few EV's again. Also, I don't wanna take chances with a speed tie, but if you object, maybe send an effective Ev spread?

Now, can anybody give some support and coverage moves in the Psychic slot? HP Ground's not looking too good right now, and Explosion's risky. I'm keeping Flamethrower since it counters Breloom, Skarmory, and Scizor.
 
The thing about Flamethrower is that most Scizors know that non-lead Azelfs pack it, so you won't get any surprise value out of it. But whatever, I'm guessing that's not your primary reason for having it.
 
@mtr

This Azelf in particular "seems" predictable. However, Azelf's got two things to fall back on: Substitute and the extra 12 HP EV's. While I can't rely on 12 HP EV's to survive the game with Azelf, I can at least roast Scizor before I die. Also, since I almost always have a substitute up, Scizor can either escape and suffer entry hazards, or break my sub. Either way, it dies.

...should I even be using those 12 EV's, guys? Bullet Punch kinda defeats the point of U-Turning Azelf.
 
I would shift all the attack into special attack, as U-Turn doesn't do much damage even with the investment. And something that can reliably take on Heatran would help this set.

Alternately, the set could go physical with Zen Headbutt/Fire Punch or something of the like if you want to do more damage with U-Turn.
 
Alright, I updated the skeleton and made it into proper essay format for Quality Control. I also added the use of items and added Insect Plate as an option. I also will describe a situation with Scizor and Pursuit.

BTW, Phantom has a point. I should have enough Attack juice to at least 2HKO some threats like Latias and Celebi and Tyranitar.

A set with 12 HP / 72 Atk / 210 SpA / 216 Spe should hurt Tyranitar less, but weaken him enough for a Scizor sweep. U-Turn is also a guaranteed 2HKO on Leftovers Latias assuming Leftovers recovery, Stealth Rock, and a switch-out (which she just might not do anyways). Most Attck Ev's are relocated into SpA so Azelf can 2HKO more things. Should Azelf go with this spread?

EDIT: and too many paragraphs, huh?
 
To be quite honest, I've got major doubts as to this set's actual usefulness on a team. Essentially, it's a Scizor lure that loses to Sandstorm and prediction. The type coverage is underwhelming, and other Scizor lures are much more useful to a team in general.
 
To be quite honest, I've got major doubts as to this set's actual usefulness on a team. Essentially, it's a Scizor lure that loses to Sandstorm and prediction. The type coverage is underwhelming, and other Scizor lures are much more useful to a team in general.

I agree. I'm leaning towards a no on this set.
 
To be quite honest, I've got major doubts as to this set's actual usefulness on a team. Essentially, it's a Scizor lure that loses to Sandstorm and prediction. The type coverage is underwhelming, and other Scizor lures are much more useful to a team in general.

I agree. I'm leaning towards a no on this set.

It's the 12 HP EV's, right? Yeah....maybe I'm too focused on countering Pokemon here. The purpose of this Azelf is to scout for switch-ins (which there will be), U-Turn and do enough damage along the way, and set up a revenge killer. And yes, I admit, this does look like a Scizor lure at first (lol HP Ev's and Substitute), but that's partly it. At least one-two Pokemon will be defeated from this guy's job. Most of those Pokemon are scarved.

The type coverage is lacking because, again, the purpose of this set is to scout. Not sweep. It also gives some value towards a Breloom, Salamence, Gyarados, and stall-team counter.

Because this takes on such a "Scizor-lure" coat, I shall edit the analysis.
 
AccidentalGreed, we're saying that we're unsure of this set's effectiveness in general. Can you please provide us with logs of this set in action? I'm willing to keep a relatively open mind, and will probably even test this set myself soon, but I just don't see it being all that useful. I also prefer the suggestion of Fire Punch and Zen Headbutt if this set were to go on-site. Or at the very least, invest more in SpA and don't plan on hitting too hard with U-turn. Anyways, some logs would be helpful here.

Edit: Also, do not cherrypick your logs to only show times when Azelf has done well please. Just give us a sequence of logs all gotten in a row.
 
Also, the issue is that when it comes to substitute users, Azelf is kinda lacking in what it takes to be an effective Substitute user. Its type coverage is mediocre, and other than maybe Scizor (which doesn't OHKO anyway), its counters are still going to come in and wreck it unless you carry specific moves to deal damage to them (like HP Ground). Substitute + Stealth Rock + Sandstorm wears it down extremely fast, and unlike good Substitute users like Machamp, Heatran, and Gengar, the Substitute doesn't perform its two main duties:

1: Letting the user pick what move they want to use to destroy the opponent's face. This means you need power and type coverage.
2: Freaking the opponent out about the fact that whatever just came in is going to get wrecked and switching in isn't a much better alternative. This means you actually need to be able to do something to your counters in order for the set to be worthwhile.
 
I just don't see how this set can be every effective, the thought of just uturn and sub makes it seem like a useless gimmick. Sure you get to somewhat scout a ttar coming but thats the only thing i really see it accomplishing, like phil said, if you can maybe provide some logs of how this thing works and is useful you might be able to change my opinion; but as of right now im going to have reject this for now.
 
I won't directly say that I disapprove this set, but that's just because I would really like to see those logs you were told to provide 10 days ago. So please, could you update this thread with a consecutive row of logs and commentary as well? Thanks
 
Think this set would work better more physically orientated. Those SpAtk evs won't be doing anything drastic for flamethrower anytime soon either.
 
Hey, uh.

You know, a lot of things have happened last week, but I don't feel like giving my life story here.

So, Latias has been banned to Ubers, thus weakening the need for Scarfved threats, pons Tyranitar. Like SDS said, this is inferior because of the reduced attacking potential and the fact that it's practically a lure, which it kinda is. I designed this because scarved Latias and T-Tar were getting popular back then, but uh. yeah.

I have no idea how this set got so good two weeks ago.

Meh. I think you guys can shut this down. It's just a case of Hax Fairy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top