Art -- is there good / bad art, is there right / wrong in art?

Cresselia~~

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I don't understand why people say that there's no right or wrong in art? And that there's no good / bad art?
These people say that art is purely subjective, with no objective rules??
And that you think something is bad art is solely due to you not liking it.

What about proportions, perspective, and shading then?
Why would stuff like color theory exist?

If there's no good/ bad art, then why don't they start calling themselves professional artists and start making money this way?
By their logic, everyone can create good art?

I mean, can someone tell me where this belief come from?
Is it being taught in schools or anything?
 
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:O what happened?
I was asking on an autism forum, why charities like to pick horrible art and called said autistic individuals "talented".
(Whereas in reality, there are a lot of autistic individuals who are professionals in art)
Then, several autistic people told me that art is subjective, that there isn't bad or good in art, and there isn't even right or wrong in art.
 
Yes, nowadays art is subjective and I have no idea how critics determine whether a piece of art is good or bad. If it is entirely subjective, how am I supposed to decipher it? I'm not an art critic, but I value both concept and technique (also: the actual difficulty of the execution). I recognize something like a cut by Fontana as "good art" due to the interesting concept it affirms, yet I still find something like The Kiss by Hayez superior in almost every way. Do you have any pics of the art we are talking about?
 
In all art there are objective standards that are used to measure the art, regardless of subjective opinion.

For example, in super laymen's terms: I'm not the biggest fan of opera subjectively, but I understand the historical and classical significance, and appreciate the theatrical performance aspect of the art-form, regardless if I don't personally enjoy it.

What these objective standards are and what/how they are used to qualitatively measure art are up for debate, but not the reliance on the pursuit of these standards. This applies to all art, including visual art.
 
No. There is no such thing as objectively bad art, just as there is no objectively good art. This is an opinion that I fervently preach. Art is entirely subjective, and to hold objective standards to a medium like that entirely defeats the purpose of art. What are the objective standards? Conforming to previous modes of expression in an attempt to create something new off previous works? How does that explain shifts in artistic expression, such as Picasso's unique style of painting. Things like color theory, music theory, etc are not "theories" in the sense that they are scientific theories that can be proven, they are simply methods that previous creators have used to produce their art, and when in doubt one can look to that "rulebook" to create guidelines on how the form should be presented. That is not to say that those "rules" are set in stone, merely just a path someone somewhere already took and it may be wise to follow down that path as a form of structure for whatever art form you are producing, emulating them. The whole purpose of artistic "rulebooks" is such that people can use them as a sort of template to guide them. Chaos with no form of direction is just that, chaotic, but following the rules and intentionally breaking them is what shifts artistic dynamics and produces some of the most lovely forms of expression. Art has constantly been evolving since the dawn of time, and constantly expanding. Note, not necessarily getting "better" over time, just expanding and becoming different.

Everyone can create good art. Why do you believe that only a preset amount of people can create art? If the material moves someone, any one person, in any way then it can be considered to have done its job in producing emotion. You have no standards to base something off of as good or bad other than your own subjective perception. Hell, you don't even have any standards as to what qualifies as art to begin with. Are films art? Why? Is music art? why? is cooking art? why? All of those can be considered artistic expressions in form, all have the potential to induce emotions in people, as Aladynn said on more than a superficial level. Do you think that art can only be considered good if it reaches a wide audience and has a lot of people clamoring for it to be seen? I have heard some of the most beautiful songs that had less than 10 views on youtube, or even just coffee shop guitarists that I would consider quality art, yet they don't have the popularity of popular songs. Would that somehow make them less relevant / objectively good? It's very arrogant to assume that only the art you assume is good can be considered good, and that's why critics' words should never be taken to heart because it is their own analysis of what the art means to them. Sometimes it may mean nothing to them, them being unable to relate, sometimes it can be everything and the most moving piece ever. In this vein there is no "bad" art just as there is no "good" art, as the opinions of whether something is bad or good is entirely subjective and has no standing that everyone universally agrees is good. I believe that it is the onus of the critic to define a set of "rules" when judging the art, rather than just handwaving and saying "this is bad, this is good," as the context behind their decision is what matters. What one person despises in an art form could be something that another praises, and you can't just separate critics from regular people because the art is directed at everyone not just the critics reviewing on their own subjective terms.
 
No. There is no such thing as objectively bad art, just as there is no objectively good art. This is an opinion that I fervently preach. Art is entirely subjective, and to hold objective standards to a medium like that entirely defeats the purpose of art. What are the objective standards? Conforming to previous modes of expression in an attempt to create something new off previous works? How does that explain shifts in artistic expression, such as Picasso's unique style of painting. Things like color theory, music theory, etc are not "theories" in the sense that they are scientific theories that can be proven, they are simply methods that previous creators have used to produce their art, and when in doubt one can look to that "rulebook" to create guidelines on how the form should be presented. That is not to say that those "rules" are set in stone, merely just a path someone somewhere already took and it may be wise to follow down that path as a form of structure for whatever art form you are producing, emulating them. The whole purpose of artistic "rulebooks" is such that people can use them as a sort of template to guide them. Chaos with no form of direction is just that, chaotic, but following the rules and intentionally breaking them is what shifts artistic dynamics and produces some of the most lovely forms of expression. Art has constantly been evolving since the dawn of time, and constantly expanding. Note, not necessarily getting "better" over time, just expanding and becoming different.

Everyone can create good art. Why do you believe that only a preset amount of people can create art? If the material moves someone, any one person, in any way then it can be considered to have done its job in producing emotion. You have no standards to base something off of as good or bad other than your own subjective perception. Hell, you don't even have any standards as to what qualifies as art to begin with. Are films art? Why? Is music art? why? is cooking art? why? All of those can be considered artistic expressions in form, all have the potential to induce emotions in people, as Aladynn said on more than a superficial level. Do you think that art can only be considered good if it reaches a wide audience and has a lot of people clamoring for it to be seen? I have heard some of the most beautiful songs that had less than 10 views on youtube, or even just coffee shop guitarists that I would consider quality art, yet they don't have the popularity of popular songs. Would that somehow make them less relevant / objectively good? It's very arrogant to assume that only the art you assume is good can be considered good, and that's why critics' words should never be taken to heart because it is their own analysis of what the art means to them. Sometimes it may mean nothing to them, them being unable to relate, sometimes it can be everything and the most moving piece ever. In this vein there is no "bad" art just as there is no "good" art, as the opinions of whether something is bad or good is entirely subjective and has no standing that everyone universally agrees is good. I believe that it is the onus of the critic to define a set of "rules" when judging the art, rather than just handwaving and saying "this is bad, this is good," as the context behind their decision is what matters. What one person despises in an art form could be something that another praises, and you can't just separate critics from regular people because the art is directed at everyone not just the critics reviewing on their own subjective terms.
Are you being taught to believe this, or do you believe this on your own?

What about the skills that it takes to become a professional artist?
Observation skills, perspective, anatomy, etc... do they really not matter?

Do you really think Picasso's work is entirely chaos?
(I see a lot of people on your side bring up Picasso)
But if you actually research more on Picasso's earlier works, you'll find out that he actually had the skills of creating classical pieces.
He knew the rules, and had the skills to create the classical paintings, just that he chose to innovate a little ...
it's a matter of style.

I'd say art style is entirely subjective, but that doesn't mean that art is entirely subjective, because,
I can't see how art skills can be subjective.

37a999ce347525cb38a915195a5ff93a.jpg

This painting is actually painted by Picasso.

You may not like it. Actually, I don't like it because of the colors.
But you can't deny that painting this requires a hell lot of skills, can you?
 
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Are you being taught to believe this, or do you believe this on your own?

What about the skills that it takes to become a professional artist?
Observation skills, perspective, anatomy, etc... do they really not matter?

Do you really think Picasso's work is entirely chaos?
(I see a lot of people on your side bring up Picasso)
But if you actually research more on Picasso's earlier works, you'll find out that he actually had the skills of creating classical pieces.
He knew the rules, and had the skills to create the classical paintings, just that he chose to innovate a little ...
it's a matter of style.

I'd say art style is entirely subjective, but that doesn't mean that art is entirely subjective, because,
I can't see how art skills can be subjective.
what does it matter my reasons for believing this if im taught it or not? for the record no i believe this of my own experiences.

what about professional skills? you dont need to be a professional to create good art. what does it even mean to be a professional in the art field? to be popular? yeah there are some techniques for everything that need to be practiced on but with a plethora of techniques that doesnt mean that just because you dont know how to shade correctly (again, defining art to some strict mindset that if you dont perform this technique a certain way it isnt “good”) doesnt mean you dont know how to create art. like everything in life creating art that can resonate with other people takes work and practice at honing your skills, but your skills dont define what is and isn’t good. that definition of defining something as good still remains subjective as not everyone agrees on what techniques can be considered good. Hell in guitar there are several techniques that can be considered lazy and “ungood.” Jimi Hendrix, widely reknowned for being an excellent guitarist and literally shaping and redefining the rock genre is still criticized to this day for playing sloppily and not really having that great of a technique. does that make him bad? no of course not, there are always going to be haters just as there will be fans and its important to recognize just because you dont think something takes skill doesnt mean that someone doesnt think the opposite.

not once did i ever say Picasso’s work was chaotic. Regardless, the point i was making was that branching into new concepts, unexplored territories, “no-nos” in the art form, can produce some of the most beautiful and artistic expressions available. Music is just one example I am familiar with, not too long ago “dissonant” harmony was a big nono and considered a mark of a poor player, yet people like Wagner and Mozart abused the hell out of dissonant chord shapes and are considered masters. I am not familiar with paintings so much which is why I jumped to Picasso as an example, because hes a perfect example of bending the rules and breaking the rulebook to create magnificent pieces.
 
I think you’re arguing about two different points and meshing them into one when they shouldnt be combined. Objectively there is skill sets and terms used to identify what goes into a perceived piece of art. On the other hand when you remove the terminology and semantics of it all art is based on the perception of those receiving the art.
 
what does it matter my reasons for believing this if im taught it or not? for the record no i believe this of my own experiences.

what about professional skills? you dont need to be a professional to create good art. what does it even mean to be a professional in the art field? to be popular? yeah there are some techniques for everything that need to be practiced on but with a plethora of techniques that doesnt mean that just because you dont know how to shade correctly (again, defining art to some strict mindset that if you dont perform this technique a certain way it isnt “good”) doesnt mean you dont know how to create art. like everything in life creating art that can resonate with other people takes work and practice at honing your skills, but your skills dont define what is and isn’t good. that definition of defining something as good still remains subjective as not everyone agrees on what techniques can be considered good. Hell in guitar there are several techniques that can be considered lazy and “ungood.” Jimi Hendrix, widely reknowned for being an excellent guitarist and literally shaping and redefining the rock genre is still criticized to this day for playing sloppily and not really having that great of a technique. does that make him bad? no of course not, there are always going to be haters just as there will be fans and its important to recognize just because you dont think something takes skill doesnt mean that someone doesnt think the opposite.

not once did i ever say Picasso’s work was chaotic. Regardless, the point i was making was that branching into new concepts, unexplored territories, “no-nos” in the art form, can produce some of the most beautiful and artistic expressions available. Music is just one example I am familiar with, not too long ago “dissonant” harmony was a big nono and considered a mark of a poor player, yet people like Wagner and Mozart abused the hell out of dissonant chord shapes and are considered masters. I am not familiar with paintings so much which is why I jumped to Picasso as an example, because hes a perfect example of bending the rules and breaking the rulebook to create magnificent pieces.
But you admit that there are some rules that are to be followed, but some rules can be broken in order to make art advance?

I'm mainly talking about paintings, but I can see how music applies too.

And by professional artist, I mean people who are earning a living by producing art.
This is how I define it.

I teach illustration and piano in real life, so I find people like you very difficult to understand.
I asked you whether it's your education that taught you that, because I've never seen an Asian saying that art is purely subjective.
This concept is entirely new to me.
 
are the youth on smogon university being taught that there are no good or bad metas? where did this belief come from?

there are good and bad ways for an individual or a society to be in relation to art as a 'concept' and likewise there are good and bad ways of relating to a particular piece (that is supposed to be a piece) of art. How is art conceived of? Sometimes, as a commodity to be exchanged. And so maybe it isn't the right context for a piece to be exhibited/performed or maybe the context in which the art is presented leads it to be interpreted or incorporated in(to) harmful ways of being. One conclusion that might be made out of this is that the emergence of 'bad art' is actually the symptom of some harmful element within the relationship between the individual(s)/society and their concepts of art and/or a particular piece of art. So some of the bad of 'bad art' could be found through an assessment of the use of that art, but on this view it isn't the bad artist that makes bad art necessarily, as though if each artist were trained to a degree of technical skill there would cease to be bad art. This view of 'bad art' that I have sketched implies many ways in which supposedly 'bad art' might be extremely enjoyable:

"Work on the senses showed immediately the difficulty of establishing and studying discrete sensual, experiential, and cognitive modes (a world of touch separable from a world of sight, for instance). The neurological condition of synesthesia (where one cognitive pathway bleeds into and triggers another, resulting in, for instance, sound being perceived, as color) offers an extreme case of a more general condition of sensual interconnection. Eating food, for instance, might necessarily privilege taste, yet to concentrate on taste to the exclusion of other senses means to fail to recognize that the experience of eating is also dependent on the haptic sensitivity of tongues and mouths, on our olfactory abilities, and on sight and sound (the cacophony of crunching might actually be part of the "flavor" of potato chips, for example)"

"The term "taste," often center stage in evaluative aesthetic discourse, vividly registers the imbrication of sense and status, of discernment and disdain, of the physical and the ideational. The very mobilization of the word "taste" to describe refined and discerning choice (and the social status that might go with it) should alert us to the way that bodily sensorial life is implied in such judgments from the start. Given the privileging of the "higher" senses (hearing and seeing, but also touch) in the history of Western thought it might seem that the very idea of "taste" to signify discernment is already flirting with distaste by invoking the "lower" senses (smell and taste). One aspect of this distribution of sense (both cognition and sensation) is the way that seeing and hearing are invoked in matters of ideational cognition ("ah, I see," "I hear you"), whereas "taste" is mobilizing sensorial realms that are, in the end, impervious to rationalist dictates."

so when ur evaluating an art i guess maybe ur also evaluating urself
 
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Echoing an earlier sentiment about a confusion of ideas. Art is a language and there are myriad skills involved in communicating to the audience what the intentions of a piece are. But to then say that we therefore have an objective rubric with which to judge the art is mistaking grammar for what a sentence actually says. The rules and norms and all that are merely tools and we can appreciate clever tool usage but that appreciation must remain in service to our appreciation of the message and core idea we received from the art (importantly, not necessarily the core idea intended by the artist).
 
Art is basically a way of expression, so when the artist manages to transmit what's inside their imagination or what they are feeling, they consider it art, and I suppose they consider it as "good" art, even if many other people also see it as "good" there are also others that consider it "bad", which is why it's considered subjective. In most cases they consider it good or bad based on how much it matches what they like or if they feel identified with said art.
 
But you admit that there are some rules that are to be followed, but some rules can be broken in order to make art advance?
no i do not admit that. "Rules" in this sense is colloquial and applies to mean "traditions." In any medium one can draw upon previous artists and creators and their ideas, and use them to forge their own. the "rules" are just what happens to appeal to a large majority of people, since in the end a lot of art is meant to be a commodity and to be sold, and typically if you are trying to sell a product you would want to appeal to a vast majority of people. People enjoy the commonality of material and tend to disavow unique experiences as too abstract, too avant garde. Does that make the material that isn't accepted by a vast majority of people bad? no because it is only when no one, including the artist, finds meaning in such a piece that the art can be considered "objectively" bad (if that) and even then can be appreciated throughout the timespan of humanity. You can use more descriptive elements to try to critique art such as calling it "kitsch," "poor taste," "shallow," but that doesn't necessarily equate to objectively bad only that individually it can be percieved that way.

I'm mainly talking about paintings, but I can see how music applies too.

And by professional artist, I mean people who are earning a living by producing art.
This is how I define it.
The idea of abstract concepts such as justice, beauty, tragedy, etc are, by definition of abstract concepts, unable to be solidly defined as the definitions can vary from person to person. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" for example. Most art is reflective of the personal experiences of the individual as well as the culture behind the individual and can't just be binarily classified as "good" or "bad," it just is. Either you get it or you don't, but its very self-centered to assume that your personal world view is the only one that matters. Art as an expressionist movement should be used to send a message that cannot be felt with language alone. In a subjective sense, sure art can be "bad." For me, art is "bad" when it is shallow, boring, and sticks to the most traditional pre-established concepts. A song using DAE chord progression written about a generic love story? Boring, heard before, contrived. For you, "bad" art could be art that doesn't showcase any form of innate "talent," with talent being defined as how well can reproduce other artists' techniques and ideas. Does that make either of us right that the art is "objectively bad?" no it doesn't it just means we have different expectations of the mode. I see no reason why only "professionals" can create art in the same way why only professional cooks are the ones who are able to cook food. You can get paid for your art but that doesn't make you any more of an artist than a dude who sits in his basement painting portraits for his family, both are doing the same thing only difference is one is selling their art.

I teach illustration and piano in real life, so I find people like you very difficult to understand.
I asked you whether it's your education that taught you that, because I've never seen an Asian saying that art is purely subjective.
This concept is entirely new to me.
I don't think its that difficult of a concept to grasp. Art is an abstract form of expression and as such an abstract concept can mean one thing to someone and an entirely different thing to someone else. What do you think about widely recognized artists that never conformed to the inherent standards of technique such as Jackson Pollock? Artists like him are recognized as heavily influential in creating the avant-garde style post world war II yet he all but abandoned traditional painting. I think its important to recognize that while there are certain individual efforts to critique art forms, with for example emphasis on technique or replication, considering art is constantly evolving it is foolish to limit the creative aspects of someone to just what others have done, because that sort of expression leads in circles and grows to be boring. The fun in creating art has to do with creating something unique, putting your own message into the art, leading the way for new techniques and new ideas to be discovered, and to express a wide range of emotions without ever uttering a single word. While its important in piano to teach technique as that is a vehicle for people to actually play the instrument, to say that there is only one correct way to play is folly, and to judge any other method as incorrect and bad is severely limiting in scope.
 
Tangentially related to this discussion: are there any things off limit in art in the scope or modern society? For instance... Is the N word acceptable or taboo in art? In my novella I'm working on, roughly 11,000 of the 55,000 words are "ni**er", (stylistic choice) but I wonder if I should scrap this altogether if moral judgments as in good/bad are being placed on artistic work as a whole nowadays.

And this is NOT a troll post. I can provide an excerpt of my book if necessary to be taken seriously, but this is NOT a troll post.
 
There is no way one out of every 5 words being the N word is an okay thing in any context. Especially given the information that you’re white which I know based on you even asking that question.
 
There is no way one out of every 5 words being the N word is an okay thing in any context. Especially given the information that you’re white which I know based on you even asking that question.

Can you elaborate? Based on recent events *cough* Warwick *cough* I feel like "SJWs" (not my favorite term but eh, if the shoe fits I guess) are dangerously close to outright censoring satirical takes (or in my case, and this is unrelated to Warwick, nuanced takes) on discrimination, which is stifling for the marketplace of ideas.

You don't deconstruct the oppression pyramid by forbidding discussion. Giving power to words lets them win. The point of my particular novella is that we should be desensitizing these words and reclaiming them (as actual black people, a camp you don't fall into, have actually started doing. See Joyner Lucas for one of many examples) rather than giving them unholy power. I wanted to give a vocal/literal take on desensitization, similar to the phenomena of saying a random word like "Spaghetti" over and over until it doesn't sound like a real word anymore. I'm sure you've done this when you were a kid.

Please give me some logical arguments against, I would love to have a real debate over it.
 
I would like to think the context of "spaghetti" and the context behind the N word are two different ballparks. It's about context, white people openly using the N word for the sake of "art" isn't a step forward considering the historical significance of the term. Hell it's not even a step in the direction of what the OP was trying to ask either.

Edit: I mean I guess it's kind of related to the OP? But it looks like it was about right and wrong in terms of the technical aspects.
 
I would like to think the context of "spaghetti" and the context behind the N word are two different ballparks. It's about context, white people openly using the N word for the sake of "art" isn't a step forward considering the historical significance of the term. Hell it's not even a step in the direction of what the OP was trying to ask either.

Edit: I mean I guess it's kind of related to the OP? But it looks like it was about right and wrong in terms of the technical aspects.
Sorry, I didn't really read the thread. I only read the title and thought that this was about morality because that's the hot button thing to talk about right now.

On the subject of technical objectivity in art, it obviously exists. The reason that the masters could be considered "classically trained" is because they studied human anatomy, mathematics, and gestalt psychology to create majestic fjords out of paint and compose siren songs for the ear. I don't think anyone who's seriously into fine art disagrees, even postmodernists.

On the subject of spaghetti and "ni**er" being contextually different, sure, but they aren't functionally different in any pragmatic way. Saying "spaghetti" and "ni**er" both 100 times out loud produces the same effect of vocabularial dissociation. That the context SHOULDN'T matter is exactly my point.
 
Also, to the people who invoke Pollock and the like in discussions like this: Postmodernist art is not "good" art in and of itself. It's an aberration and won't even get so much as a footnote in the annals of art history 200 years down the line. Its only function is being a half-baked philosophical rejection of modernity, not something that seriously pushes any medium forward.
 
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