Anti-Starter Gardevoir

Lou Cypher

Now that my Smogon tour campaign is over, I think I can unveil my main team's main selling point; Choice Scarf Gardevoir. (WHA?)

dpffa282.png
dpffb282.png

Gardevoir #282
Trace/Synchronize
HP: 68
ATK: 65
DEF: 65
SPA: 125
SPD: 115
SPE: 80

Gardevoir is known to be a support Pokémon, with a knack for carrying moves like Wish/Hypnosis/WillOWisp/ThunderWave, added with a STAB Psychic (Coming from that SPA does hurt) and maybe a secondary move. there is the oddball SalacSub DBond set, and some other oddities, but in general, people expect Gardevoir to be supportive.

The Smogon analysis says, and I quote:
Smogondex on Gardevoir said:
Don't make the mistake of trying to play Gardevoir like you would Alakazam or Azelf.
Click to expand...
That made me reject Gardevoir's sweeping services up until I saw a post about ScarfGar, and mainly its ability to use Hypnosis to lull people into thinking that its the regular Status First Sweep Later Gengar. I then figured; why wouldn't that work on Gardevoir? After all, thanks to Trace, it has more selling points, like the ability to come in on a DDanced Gyarados, take the Waterfall and fire it into Davy Jones's locker. And since Gardevoir is not quite as much well-known as Gengar, and a lot slower of the bat, why not take the gambit?

So with Hypnosis set in stone, I had to pick 3 attacking moves. That wasn't easy, since the choices were:
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot/Energy Ball
- Psychic
- Hidden Power (Ice for Dragons, mainly)
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
I scratched off Shadow Ball early on. Ghosts aren't known to be starters and the one who is gets OHKO'd by Psychic (Hello again Gengar). Focus Blast is iffy. Gardevoir's physical defences mean that it isn't the most favorable move, considering you already want Hypnosis. Hidden Power is therefore my favorite alternative to any of the Top 3.

So I ended up with:
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Timid
252 SPATK, 252 SPE, 4 HP
I'm not grand at EVing, so if anyone thinks that this is improveable, be my guest, For now, my main focus was to outrun Adamant Scarf'd Heracrotch, and Scarf'd PorygonZ. Which this set manages.

- Grass Knot (I hate Swampert)
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hypnosis

This set has scored many surprise KO's already, as well as lots of surprise Hypnosis resulting in the setup of a sweep. Don't be fooled by her at first glance unimpressive defences, it is quite possible to send her in on medium-powered Special hits and low-powered Physical hits, and you might net a surprise KO if you didn't spoil your Scarf-Surprise yet.

Seeing as how this Gardevoir is supposed to be anti-starter, lessee how it stacks up against the Top 20 Shoddy Starters, and what to do.

GYARADOS
Thunderbolt it. No questions asked. Gyarados users have a tendency to expect WillOWisp or so and thus Taunt. BIG mistake. OHKO
GENGAR
Psychic OHKO's, Gengar fails to OHKO if not Spec'd or Orb'd, in which case you outrun it.
BRONZONG
Hypnotize it, then switch out to a setupper.
TYRANITAR
Hypnotize it then GET THE HELL OUTTA THERE. TTar will eat Gardevoir alive otherwise. If you got Focus Blast, feel free to use it.
SALAMENCE
Hypnotizing yields the best results. Unless you run HP Ice.
HIPPOWDON
The safe route is to Hypnose it. It can survive Grass Knots and then take a switch to Blissey, but you will cripple it in that case. However, its physical assaults might be too much for Gardevoir, if it opts to attack rather as place down SRock.
YOU WON'T OHKO, Energy Ball deals Damage: 53.57% - 63.10%, thats on a standard Hippowdon. Grass Knot doesnt go in the Metalkid calculator, but you got the point.
NINJASK
This might be a problem. But just send in the Phazer et voila.
YANMEGA
You outspeed, nab its speed boosts and thus fry the bug. OHKO with TBolt.
ABOMASNOW
You can't hit it SE but you can hypnotize it. And there must be SOMETHING on your team that can handle it?
WEAVILE
Either HPFight or Focus Blast - IF you got it. Otherwise, there's still good ol' Hypnosis.
METAGROSS
Again, put it to sleep. You can't do much to it.
ROSERADE
Psychic should do the trick, but be aware of Sleep Powder/Focus Sash varieties. They might fire back badly. You can use Hypnosis, and as they switch, Hypnotize again. You do OHKO with Psychic.
INFERNAPE
Psychic it and be done with it. Not the hardest to face here. OHKO.
JOLTEON
One slight problem. If you Hypnosis and it misses, it will Sub, forcing you to get your Gardevoir outta there. Hitting it might be a safer bet, but you won't OHKO at all. On the other hand, its not like he can do much to you and your traced Volt Absorb.
BRELOOM
Psychic it. Don't make the mistake of using Hypnosis - Protect/Toxic Orb might ruin your day.
CROBAT
Psychic it, once again. You can opt for Hypnosis here if you're unsure. OHKO
AMBIPOM
Switch out. Its gonna Fake Out, and on Gardevoir's low defences, it'll hurt.
SWAMPERT
Grass Knot it. But watch out, it might survive. If that happens, you did critically injure it at the very least. Swampert is likely to need some SPD EV's to prevent an OHKO though.
AZELF
Sleep it and get out, else it'll U-Turn. And that hurts.
FORRETRESS
....Dont bother. Forretress's might will destroy Gardevoir instantly.

Yes, thats a lot of Hypnosis there. But if it ain't broke no need to fix it aye? And generally, Gardevoir is sturdy enough to take a blow, just, don't try and stop a CB Megahorn or so with her, kay?

Opinions?
 
Damage cals would be helpful, if it were to fail a OHKO on one of these occasions, it would be very important to know.
 
I noted the important misses on OHKO's (Mainly Hippowdon), but I can see where you're coming from. Just a few minutes.

EDIT: Done. In fact, the only OHKO's you miss against standard sets are Swampert (Sometimes) and Hippowdon. All the other missed OHKO's, I recommended Hypnosis.
 
What does this set do that scarfgar can't do? Gengar is faster and has better special attack. A lot of the things that this set kills shouldn't be staying in anyway. If my Gyarados saw a Gardevoir I would switch to Blissey.

Its a cool set, and might get a few surprise kills, but Gradevoir's counters are still counters. I'd rather have Wish / status support then a scarfer.
 
I think I already faced this (from you I guess) on some occasions and it did okay. It actually is a good surprise scarfer that won't have it's use and surprise ruined later on thanks to Trace.

Those many Hypnosis potentially missing won't do you good however. Thus making this particular Gardevoir an unreliable lead, but an interesting one nonetheless.
 
Lot of the stuff it kills would usually be able to stay in and get the KO themselves (Yanmega, Infernape, Roserade?, Crobat, Azelf). The main selling point is the ability to get back in later on specific attackers, which Gengar might be unable to do (DDance Gyarados, looking at you, Waterfall from a DDanced Gyarados deals 50-ish% damage and you should outspeed later). Trace sets it apart from Gengar. I got a cheap revenge kill on Garchomp once because I traced Sand Veil, which worked for me.

The fact that people won't expect this helps too. Hypnosis can be fired off again because odds are, Blissey will switch out once it's asleep. It won't risk giving the likes of Tyranitar a free switch-in.
 
Why would a Blissey switch out when its asleep? Natural Cure would awaken it and just let you Hypnosis again. Standard Gardevoir can't hurt Bliss much so it would probably stay in to scout your moves.

I'm not saying the set is bad, its just that Gengar is mostly superior.

Also Yanmega leads can Protect + Speed Boost. I'm not sure how fast Yanmega vs Gardevoir is, so i'm not sure if it would matter.
 
This isn't so much a comment about this specific set, but in general I don't like taking a 70% chance with Hypnosis if missing means I will die. Hypnosis works on Gengar as a lead because he messes with other leads and forces switches. Gardevoir doesn't force switches like Gengar does. I still like the set and concept, but missing a hypnosis on a TTar or Salamence will almost certainly leave you a pokemon down (if you're lucky).

Another random note, I'm really surprised Lum isn't more popular, I love it.
 
if you wanted a trace starter, why not magic coat porygon-2 ? Scarf-gardevoir is inferior to scarf-gar.
 
So this is a gengar with surprise factor and a bit of defenses instead of insane speed. I guess it could get a ko, but like said above, I'd much prefer the team player or leave attacking to gengar.
 
I tried something interesting the other day that is a bit similar. I used Scarf Alakazam with Psychic, HP Electric, Focus Blast, and Trick.

It was Modest with max Speed and max Sp Att. It made a great anti-starter by outspeeding Scarf Gengar leads and KOing with Psychic. It also did 70% to Gyarados with HP Electric, OHKOed Tyranitar leads, and could use Trick to screw up the likes of Blissey.

The reason that I abandoned it is because it didn't do much else other than KO leads.
 
Porky said:
if you wanted a trace starter, why not magic coat porygon-2 ? Scarf-gardevoir is inferior to scarf-gar.
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Porygon2 doesn't have base 125 Stats, Grass Knot or Hypnosis.

Gengar doesn't have Trace, base 115 Sp. Def, or Grass Knot.

Gardevoir clearly fills a niche neither of these pokemon can fill.
 
Blue Harvest said:
What does this set do that scarfgar can't do? Gengar is faster and has better special attack. A lot of the things that this set kills shouldn't be staying in anyway. If my Gyarados saw a Gardevoir I would switch to Blissey.

Its a cool set, and might get a few surprise kills, but Gradevoir's counters are still counters. I'd rather have Wish / status support then a scarfer.
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Trace is easily one of the best abilitys in the game, and it allows Gardevoir much more freedom on switches than Gengar. 349 SpAtk is still nice, only 10 less than Timid Gengar's 359. Psychic is also stronger than Shadow Ball in terms of STAB. Sure, Gengar is a good choice for a Scarf, but Gardevoir does have a couple of things over it. The main thing is Trace, seeings as Psychics type coverage is horrible compared to Shadow Ball.
 
Trace is easily one of the best abilitys in the game, and it allows Gardevoir much more freedom on switches than Gengar. 349 SpAtk is still nice, only 10 less than Timid Gengar's 359. Psychic is also stronger than Shadow Ball in terms of STAB. Sure, Gengar is a good choice for a Scarf, but Gardevoir does have a couple of things over it. The main thing is Trace, seeings as Psychics type coverage is horrible compared to Shadow Ball.
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I wouldn't go _THAT_ far. Gengar can switch into 3 immunities to common attacks... normal, fighting and ground. Trace allows Gardevoir to switch into Gyarados, Heatran and so forth without taking much damage.

EDIT: Gardevoir can run +Speed / 236 EVs to outrun Adamant Ninjask, constantly outspeeding it with Speed Boost, and OHKOing it on the 2nd turn with T-Bolt if it protects on the first.
 
IggyBot said:
Trace is easily one of the best abilitys in the game, and it allows Gardevoir much more freedom on switches than Gengar. 349 SpAtk is still nice, only 10 less than Timid Gengar's 359. Psychic is also stronger than Shadow Ball in terms of STAB. Sure, Gengar is a good choice for a Scarf, but Gardevoir does have a couple of things over it. The main thing is Trace, seeings as Psychics type coverage is horrible compared to Shadow Ball.
Click to expand...

We're talking about Scarf Gengar here. And any sane person would run Modest as opposed to Timid. Also, don't forget that Gengar's playing by that Fighting, Ground, Normal immunity and a couple resistances as well.


@Topic creator: To calculate Grass Knot on Metalkid's, just use the move Override, type in whatever base damage GK will do to said pokemon, and enter the type (Grass). Done.
 
Gardevoir's Psychic is significantly stronger than Gengar Shadowball. Both of their T-Bolt OHKOs the important guys anyway (aka, Gyarados)...

Quite frankly, the Modest vs Timid point is moot at best when comparing Gengar to Gardevoir. Heck, to tie Adamant CS Heracross, you can use Modest CS Gardevoir anyway.
 
toybox said:
We're talking about Scarf Gengar here. And any sane person would run Modest as opposed to Timid. Also, don't forget that Gengar's playing by that Fighting, Ground, Normal immunity and a couple resistances as well.


@Topic creator: To calculate Grass Knot on Metalkid's, just use the move Override, type in whatever base damage GK will do to said pokemon, and enter the type (Grass). Done.
Click to expand...

You would be surprised how many people run Timid + Scarf on Gengar. And even if Gengar does go Modest, Timid Gardevoir does the same amount of damage with Psychic as Gengar does with Shadow Ball against a neutral opponent.
 
Lou Cypher said:
HIPPOWDON
The safe route is to Hypnose it. It can survive Grass Knots and then take a switch to Blissey, but you will cripple it in that case. However, its physical assaults might be too much for Gardevoir, if it opts to attack rather as place down SRock.
YOU WON'T OHKO, Energy Ball deals Damage: 53.57% - 63.10%, thats on a standard Hippowdon. Grass Knot doesnt go in the Metalkid calculator, but you got the point.
Click to expand...

This is where Bulbapedia and Psypokes collide. Psypokes tells me that our Hippo is 661 pounds, and Bulba tells me that anything that is more than 400 pounds nets a 120 BP GK. I inputted it in, using the Override move, and this Gardevoir will only do 80.00% - 94.05% to the standard 252 HP Hippowdon.
 
Blue Harvest said:
Why would a Blissey switch out when its asleep? Natural Cure would awaken it and just let you Hypnosis again. Standard Gardevoir can't hurt Bliss much so it would probably stay in to scout your moves.

I'm not saying the set is bad, its just that Gengar is mostly superior.

Also Yanmega leads can Protect + Speed Boost. I'm not sure how fast Yanmega vs Gardevoir is, so i'm not sure if it would matter.
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Bliss might switch out due to the threat of incoming stuff like Tyranitar. Its where prediction comes in; will he switch out or not? If not, good, Sweeper Time. If yes, good, they sleep.

Phizzlax said:
This isn't so much a comment about this specific set, but in general I don't like taking a 70% chance with Hypnosis if missing means I will die. Hypnosis works on Gengar as a lead because he messes with other leads and forces switches. Gardevoir doesn't force switches like Gengar does. I still like the set and concept, but missing a hypnosis on a TTar or Salamence will almost certainly leave you a pokemon down (if you're lucky).

Another random note, I'm really surprised Lum isn't more popular, I love it.
Click to expand...

Gotta take your chances to win, y'know. Without a bit of a lucky break, NOBODY can win. Unless against vastly inferior opponents.

Dragontamer said:
Gardevoir's Psychic is significantly stronger than Gengar Shadowball. Both of their T-Bolt OHKOs the important guys anyway (aka, Gyarados)...

Quite frankly, the Modest vs Timid point is moot at best when comparing Gengar to Gardevoir. Heck, to tie Adamant CS Heracross, you can use Modest CS Gardevoir anyway.
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Last time I checked, Heracross has 5 base speed more. Which hurts the point.

hbdragon88 said:
This is where Bulbapedia and Psypokes collide. Psypokes tells me that our Hippo is 661 pounds, and Bulba tells me that anything that is more than 400 pounds nets a 120 BP GK. I inputted it in, using the Override move, and this Gardevoir will only do 80.00% - 94.05% to the standard 252 HP Hippowdon.
Click to expand...

Yeah, should've thought of that myself.

One note about Psychic. While it doesn't seem to have such grand coverage, look at which of the leads are OHKO'd by it. That IS quite the list. Compare to Shadow Ball...
 
Good set. I swear people need to hop off of Gengar and other OU as being so superior in every way. Psychic is an underrated STAB move, especially with fighting pokemon everywhere. I used a ScarfCelebi, which has similar type coverage to this Gardevoir with Leafstorm, Psychic, HP Fighting, and U-Turn.. and it is a great lead. So many people leave infernapes, crobats, and gengars in... only to realize that Celebi can OHKO every single one of them with Psychic.
 
I had to smirk a little upon seeing this topic. Nice to know somebody besides myself has stopped ignoring Gardy's offensive potential. On one of my Shoddy teams I did have a CS Gardevoir on it. In my experience it has actually worked quite well. The fact that it has surprise going for it is what makes people keep in things like Infernape. They expect to outspeed me and end up getting OHKOd by Psychic.

Now, I run 4 attacks rather than Hypnosis and 3 attacks. But I might try this out myself. That and switching to Trace. I've been a little partial to Synchronize for awhile, but tracing Speed Boost or Flash Fire would be really helpful.
 
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