Ambipom (OU Lead)

[Delko]

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ambipom

[SET]
name: Ambipom (OU anti-Lead)
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Aerial Ace
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Ice Punch/ Low Kick
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-This is a very effective anti-lead as it outspeeds and 2HKO (Fake Out + other move) every non-Steel type lead (and Ninjask) and since this underated pokemon has a base speed of 115 it almost certain to hit first. Not to mention the suprise factor.

Additional Comments:
- This set is created by The King Of Harts.
- Taunt is an option but Ambipom is rather frail.
- U-turn is a possible option. Thunderpunch is an option if you have problems with Gyarados
- Expert Belt can work but Fake Out will be weaker.

Teammates and Counters:
- Since this set lures out Steel types, Magnezone is a good partner.

 

[cim]

Utterly useless after Turn 1 or 2. You're making a one for one trade (his lead for yours). No real STAB. Predict the Fake Out and switch to Rotom and it's game over. How is that good or effective?

 

[Forte.EXE]

I can't see why anyone would use this over Infernape.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Infernape does Fast Fake Out Lead a lot better, since it has actual competent STAB (or the option of Taunt) and can SR. Complete incompetence when dealing with Rotom or Steel-types doesn't help, and it's setup fodder for scary stuff like Gyarados, Heatran, etc.

This gets a no from me.

 

[Delko]

Okay let me defend this set.

Ambipom beats for sure:

Swampert leads (Fake Out + Seed Bomb)
Machamp leads (Fake Out + Aerial Ace)
Azelf Leads (Fake Out + Aerial Ace) !speed tie!
Gliscor Leads (Fake Out + Ice Punch)
Infernape Leads (Fake Out + Aerial Ace)
Roserade Leads (Fake Out + Aerial Ace)
Dragonite Leads (Ice Punch) !inner focus!
Aerodactyl leads (Fake Out + Ice Punch)
Smeargle leads (Fake Out + Aerial Ace)
Abomasnow leads (Fake Out + Aerial Ace)
Starmie leads (Fake Out + Seed Bomb) !speed tie!

*Note: Ambipom is faster then the above leads so there is nothing they can do except switching out (I'll come to that later). When I was testing this lead the majority of this lead didn't switch out, and this wasn't against bad players. I know the suprise value is very high because seeing and unexpected Seed Bomb destroy a Swampert is unique and rare.

Lead Ambipom can't beat:

Heatran leads
Metagross leads
Skarmory leads
Forretress leads
Hippowdon leads

I am also aware of the fact that this pokemon cannot set up entry hazards but is in fact an all out offensive lead. And unlike many other posted sets I have seen here, this one actually prevent the set up of entry hazards. Yeah sure your opponent can set them up later in the game but it can so against many others.

@ Chris is me: Ambipom is very usefull later in the game as Fake Out deals about 45% to both Mence and Gyara, so after Stealth Rocks, Life Orb damage, ... that will really hurt them. And yes your opponent can switch out to Rotom-a on the expected Fake Out but there are so many leads that force switches, that doest make them bad, and that definitly doesn't make Ambipom useless. So what if they go to their Rotom-a, just go to your Scarftar or your Rotom counter. Luring out specific pokemon can also help you forming a team.

@ The Shiny Pidgey & SDS: Infernape's Fake Out is way weaker and if Infernape is to use Life Orb, he will be outsped and beaten by quite a few from the above leads. While Infernape can Fake Out + Fire Blast to OHKO Azelf, Azelf will either have set it's rocks up or knocked down Infernape to his Sash (because Azelf is faster), and there are more in the leads above. Infernape does have the advantage against Steel types but that's where I suggest Magnezone as his potential partner. Scarf Jirachi will set up Stealth Rocks or try to Iron Head kill Ambipom right from the start. This allows Magnezone to get up an easy Sub and attack from there. Same goes for Earthquake-less Metagross. Heatran and Hippowdon are the only leads this duo looses against, which isn't bad if I may say so. I know this is supposed to be a one-pokemon presentation but I just tossed the Magnezone suggestion in there.

After Intimidate those "scary stuff" like Gyarados can indeed set up on Ambipom but Ambipom can still revenge kill them later. There are a lot of pokemon who are set up bait who cannot do this.

 

[The King of Harts]

I think it should be known what kind of team I used with this Ambipom: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73783. With the right teammates Rotom-A and Steel Types are dealt with. Besides Rotom can come in on Machamp's DP and trick some Specs on to him or burn him with W-o-W.

Also, if Gyarados or Heatran scare you, Thunderpunch and Low Kick can easily be placed on the set. Ambipom's movepool is quite large and can be mix-matched for whatever you need.

I can't see why anyone would use this over Infernape.

I'll give you some reasons: Machamp, Swampert, Starmie, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Roserade w/ Sash and Gliscor. What do they all have in common? LeadApe struggles against them and Ambipom can take them out without taking a scratch aside from Life Orb recoil. Not to mention LeadApe typically speed tie other LeadApe making it a crapshoot to see who goes first, but Ambipom wins that match 100% of the time, even if it has Vaccum Wave.

EDIT:

Dragonite Leads (Fake Out + Ice Punch)

Just Ice Punch handles Dnite. Also, he has Inner Focus negating the flinch from FO.

 

[Delko]

Thanks King of Harts, I shall add those move to the OP.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'll give you some reasons: Machamp, Swampert, Starmie, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Roserade w/ Sash and Gliscor.

So you've named all of these leads that either don't care and still get up rocks, or are antileads and don't care about having to switch to something that sets up for free on this Ambipom. The fact that this beats some marginally interesting leads is defeated by the fact that it is helpless against some far more threatening things, such as Heatran and Gyarados.

EDIT: The big issue is that the lack of STAB really, REALLY hurts it in any position other than the lead. It also isn't especially good at hitting a wide range of other foes, which means that it's midgame setup fodder for common Pokemon. It can't hurt stuff like Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Rotom, Jirachi, Metagross, I could really go on, but there's just too much that it can't hit. By gaining the ability to hit these, it loses "crucial coverage" as a lead, and as a midgame attacker it's fairly outclassed.

Without some overwhelming evidence in favor of this, I'm going to have to reject it.

 

[Towelie]

This set loses to like... Jirachi, Forry, Skarmory, and Metagross who all get beat by Magnezone. It PREVENTS hazards from so many leads... It takes out Anti-Leads, SR leads, Pert which is a HUGE plus for so many teams, and Gliscor which is great for things like Lucario. I really don't see why this would get rejected...

Edit: Rotom gets beat by CB Tar, Scizor, etc. and if it has wow well heatran likes getting +1 on fire blast. and the majority of the things you just listed are BEATEN BY MAGNEZONE.

 

[Despotar]

This set is good for killing leads, but if the opponent has a ghost, you pretty much lose.
It might be okay if you have a team of Ambipom/T-tar/Magnazone, but you don't really want to base a team upon a lead.

 

[The King of Harts]

So you've named all of these leads that either don't care and still get up rocks, or are antileads and don't care about having to switch to something that sets up for free on this Ambipom. The fact that this beats some marginally interesting leads is defeated by the fact that it is helpless against some far more threatening things, such as Heatran and Gyarados.

Let me try putting it like this: Leads have one of two jobs 1) Set up hazards or 2) Set the tone. Of all the Pokes used as leads to set up SR, Aerodactyl and Heartran are the only ones capable of safely doing so, but only Aero has a lot use as a lead since most Heatran are scarfers. Swampert rarely uses SR since most people predict the Taunt and go straight for the EQ only for the Seed Bomb surprise. Other Antileads like LeadApe and Machamp are tone setters, but this Ambipom is the one setting the tempo with the early KOs. This is where Ambipom shines, people see the Aerial Ace, Ice Punch, or Seed Bomb and it's no longer the throwaway Taunt user they assume it is.

Also, you're right, he does struggle against Heatran and Gyarados, but what team doesn't have a counter dedicated to them? This Ambipom is a Tone Setting Lead that has use in battle as well when the steels and Gyarados are gone.

EDIT: The big issue is that the lack of STAB really, REALLY hurts it in any position other than the lead. It also isn't especially good at hitting a wide range of other foes, which means that it's midgame setup fodder for common Pokemon. It can't hurt stuff like Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Rotom, Jirachi, Metagross, I could really go on, but there's just too much that it can't hit. By gaining the ability to hit these, it loses "crucial coverage" as a lead, and as a midgame attacker it's fairly outclassed.

Without some overwhelming evidence in favor of this, I'm going to have to reject it.

The thing about the guys you listed there is that my, and I'm sure everyone else's team, has counters for them. But you know who aren't listing? Common OU Pokes like Gliscor, Salamence, Breloom, Starmie, Vaporeon and Togekiss, guys he can stand up with since he has SE moves and is faster/speed ties. Also, replace one move with Fire Punch and suddenly three of the guys you listed are less threatening.

This set is good for killing leads, but if the opponent has a ghost, you pretty much lose.
It might be okay if you have a team of Ambipom/T-tar/Magnazone, but you don't really want to base a team upon a lead.

Rotom, yes. Froslass, no since Aerial Ace is a 2HKO. Gengar, not really since Aerial Ace, again, is a 2HKO and good luck getting in a Focus Blast on the first try.
As for the second part, why is having Ttar and Magnezone on your team bad? Also, how many people don't build there teams around Swampert's Stealth Rock or Roserade's Toxic Spikes? If you have either of those two, it's almost assured there's a spin blocker on your team.

 

[alex 67]

You say it beats Aerodactyl it does ko it but that's the point of a suicide lead! Also there's a thing called switching out it's not like you have wobbuffets ability

 

[Towelie]

ok they get rocks up but you have an 80 % ambipom to come back late game and flinch shit to death and hit them with hard aerial aces (which actually hurts shit surprisingly). machamp let's azelf and aero, and meta, and heatran, and <insert fast sr user here> but people still use it. this thing sets the tempo and ACTUALLY PREVENTS it on a lot of pokes.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

If the tempo is "hmm, now i'm switching out of heatran" then sure, this sets the tempo.

This thing is too much of a liability to ever be truly useful. It can't do its job as a lead without using these moves for specific coverage, but that makes it incredibly susceptible to way too many top threats for me to ever advocate using this at any point in time.

 

[Forte.EXE]

ok they get rocks up but you have an 80 % ambipom to come back late game and flinch shit to death and hit them with hard aerial aces (which actually hurts shit surprisingly). machamp let's azelf and aero, and meta, and heatran, and <insert fast sr user here> but people still use it. this thing sets the tempo and ACTUALLY PREVENTS it on a lot of pokes.

You're missing the point of an Attacking Lead Machamp completely. Machamp forces your opponent to make a choice. Do they want to set up Stealth Rock, or do they want to deal with a full HP Machamp hammering away at their team? The only lead that you just named that actually beats Machamp one-on-one 100% of the time (iirc) is Metagross, and that's only with Lum. Sorry bout the off-topicness, but I felt the need to point that out.

I'll try out the Ambipom lead sometime. It looks decent enough. Only thing I don't like about it is how you're practically forced to run support for it to. You need Tyranitar for Ghost-types, Magnezone for Steel-types, ect, ect.

Oh, and just a quick question. If your opponent switches in Rotom-a, and they know you don't have Taunt, why wouldn't they just go for Will-o-wisp? They Burn your Tyranitar on the switch-in, and now they're free to use it as set-up.

 

[The King of Harts]

Oh, and just a quick question. If your opponent switches in Rotom-a, and they know you don't have Taunt, why wouldn't they just go for Will-o-wisp? They Burn your Tyranitar on the switch-in, and now they're free to use it as set-up.

I have a Houndoom with Flash Fire for just such a situation. He deals with both Rotom-A and Steel types perfectly fine (he also has HP Ground for Heatran). That's one team member who deals with two problems. Heatran with Shadow Ball or any other Fire type with a ghost/dark attack can do it as well.

If the tempo is "hmm, now i'm switching out of heatran" then sure, this sets the tempo.

By tempo I mean "I just go an easy KO and now I know my opponent has a Heatran, let me send in [insert Heatran counter here] and save Ambipom for later to get me another easy KO". If you take out an opponents Heatran early in the match, you have a much easier road ahead of you. And if Ambipom is the reason I got the early KO on a Heatran, then that's just dandy in my book.

 

[cim]

Here's the problem with the set. It might be able to KO 10 or so leads and stuff, including many popular ones. But the problem is threefold.

1. Suicide Leads still get out Rocks. This alone isn't a problem if it weren't for the other two.
2. Many leads that this set targets have no problem switching out and coming in later, such as Machamp which is designed to do exactly that.
3. After killing leads, Ambipom is DEAD WEIGHT. Not even a little good.

If you break all 3, you don't get to be a lead set.

 

[The King of Harts]

Here's the problem with the set. It might be able to KO 10 or so leads and stuff, including many popular ones. But the problem is threefold.

1. Suicide Leads still get out Rocks. This alone isn't a problem if it weren't for the other two.
2. Many leads that this set targets have no problem switching out and coming in later, such as Machamp which is designed to do exactly that.
3. After killing leads, Ambipom is DEAD WEIGHT. Not even a little good.

If you break all 3, you don't get to be a lead set.

1. Aerodactyl and Metagross are really the only two. I'll give you that one anyways since they're pretty common (even though Rotom-A fixes the Metagross Problem).

2. I'm saying this from experience: They do not switch. Nobody in OU is threatened by an Ambipom, especially Machamp. The only thing I can say is try it for yourself and you'll see.

3. Dead weight? He is far from it after he takes out leads. Fake Out can easily pick off any non-Steel/Rock type (deals 38-45% on Salamence alone). He's also incredibly fast and can come in to take out Infernape who are in the middle of a sweep. Dead weight is a Swampert after a Seed Bomb or Gengar after an Aerial Ace. Just because he's not packing Double Hit or Return doesn't automatically mean he can't do anything.

 

[Bluewind]

I think you should add the leads that Ambipom is soundly beaten by, like Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Metagross, Skarmory and Heatran; because that way it looks like Ambipom can get past anything, which it obviously doesn't.

 

[alex 67]

Azelf has a 50% chance.

 

[Towelie]

Ya it loses to Heatran (#12 lead) who also beats machamp (so many people run specs with overheat as their lead) and ya it loses to metagross but just use shuca tran. And how does it have ZERO late game use? it deals a fuckton to mence with fake out, outspeeds gengar and can even SWITCH IN TO IT (shadow ball obv) and hits it very hard with aerial ace, it hits celebi hard with fake out + aerial ace, deals a shitload to scarfgon, kos stallbreaking gliscor while surprising it (if you haven't used ice punch yet) fake out does a lot to kingdra and gyara, hits LOmie hard with fake out and can win speed tie and ko it with seed bomb, deals 27.5% - 32.7% to offensive cune with fake out and 49.7% - 58.5% with seed bomb. so thats... about 78 % minimum and about 92 % max so with rocks and some prior damage it revenges it with ease, also takes out non lead perts, revenges togekiss with ease, deals about 63 % minimum to zappy with fake out + ice punch which is a ko with rocks and some prior damage, revenges breloom, deals 58.8% - 69.9% to specs jolt with fakeout, revenges non vaccum wave/mach punch ape with ease, revenges heracross easily, does some damage to luke with fake out (albeit not that much, 25.6% - 29.9%, but every little bit helps) does 18.8% - 22.4% to sub empoleon (so if you use lucario on your team, which is a good idea because this lures gliscor and kos it with ice punch, a combination of priority kills it), revenges electivire (lol,) kos mixmence and mixnite with ice punch (outspeeding obviously) does a shitload to LO azelf, seed bomb does 50 - 60 to ttar without a boost and fake out does like 12%ish minimum, does 34.9% - 41.5% to tentacruel with fake out, and 35.4% - 41.8% with aerial ace, (like 70ish minimum and 83 max which is a lot with rocks) revenges so many frail scarfers...

so you were saying it has 0 use out of the lead spot? oh ok.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Ya it loses to Heatran (#12 lead) who also beats machamp (so many people run specs with overheat as their lead) and ya it loses to metagross but just use shuca tran. And how does it have ZERO late game use? it deals a fuckton to mence with fake out, outspeeds gengar and can even SWITCH IN TO IT (shadow ball obv) and hits it very hard with aerial ace, it hits celebi hard with fake out + aerial ace, deals a shitload to scarfgon, kos stallbreaking gliscor while surprising it (if you haven't used ice punch yet) fake out does a lot to kingdra and gyara, hits LOmie hard with fake out and can win speed tie and ko it with seed bomb, deals 27.5% - 32.7% to offensive cune with fake out and 49.7% - 58.5% with seed bomb. so thats... about 78 % minimum and about 92 % max so with rocks and some prior damage it revenges it with ease, also takes out non lead perts, revenges togekiss with ease, deals about 63 % minimum to zappy with fake out + ice punch which is a ko with rocks and some prior damage, revenges breloom, deals 58.8% - 69.9% to specs jolt with fakeout, revenges non vaccum wave/mach punch ape with ease, revenges heracross easily, does some damage to luke with fake out (albeit not that much, 25.6% - 29.9%, but every little bit helps) does 18.8% - 22.4% to sub empoleon (so if you use lucario on your team, which is a good idea because this lures gliscor and kos it with ice punch, a combination of priority kills it), revenges electivire (lol,) kos mixmence and mixnite with ice punch (outspeeding obviously) does a shitload to LO azelf, seed bomb does 50 - 60 to ttar without a boost and fake out does like 12%ish minimum, does 34.9% - 41.5% to tentacruel with fake out, and 35.4% - 41.8% with aerial ace, (like 70ish minimum and 83 max which is a lot with rocks) revenges so many frail scarfers...

so you were saying it has 0 use out of the lead spot? oh ok.

For all those points, I would actually prefer using it as a late-game sweeper as opposed to a Lead. That way, it frees up the Lead slot for something that can lay down Stealth Rock, which can aid Ambipom. So, taking into account everything Towlie said, I'd actually think this set would function far better if it was used for late-game sweeping.

 

[Towelie]

It beats a shitload of common leads, and it's fast so it usually doesn't take damage. When it can't beat the lead (see heatran and metagross) you switch out and use it late game.

 

[alex 67]

Yeah it might actually work late game but never as a lead.

 

[The King of Harts]

I think you should add the leads that Ambipom is soundly beaten by, like Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Metagross, Skarmory and Heatran; because that way it looks like Ambipom can get past anything, which it obviously doesn't.

I'll give you Hippowdon and Metagross, but:
Tyranitar- 2-3HKO depending how you play it. Seed Bomb alone gets you a 2-3HKO and if it's lead Tar, one of those turns is used to set up SR. Fake Out plus 2 Seed Bombs gets you 3HKO and one turn is used being flinched and the other setting up rocks. Or, you can just use Low Kick for the OHKO if you really fear LeadTar.

Heatran: Again, Low Kick deals out 85-98% damage. A Fake Out beforehand gets you 15-18%. That's an easy 2HKO.

None of these moves are set in stone and can easily replaced with better moves depending what you need. That's another great thing about Ambipom as a lead, he has great diversity to help hammer out the weaknesses on your team.