Ambipom (Choice Band)

Thund91

Thund91

is a Contributor Alumnus
is a Contributor Alumnus
This is pretty much the only Ambipom I'd use in the current meta. With Spiritomb everywhere Ambipoms get crippled early on because everyone thinks spamming Fake Out is useful while being met with a Pursuit-happy Tomb, Rhyperior, etc.. Mini rant there but CB definitely deserves to be on site.

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ambipom


Name: Choice Band
move 1: Return
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Low Kick
Item: Choice Band
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Technician

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Ambipom's high Speed and good offensive power allows it to act as a great revenge killer
-Ambipom has great utility in its moves. U-turn is a great scouting move to rack up damage and lets it pull off something like Scyther, albeit weaker but can abuse it more due to neutrality to SR.
-Pursuit coupled with its high speed allows it to eliminate Ghost-types like Mismagius and Rotom.
-Great lure to eliminate Steel- or Rock-types for teammates

Additional comments:
-Other move options. Mainly Payback but it's a lesser option.
-Still works decently as a lead
-Great late game cleaner

Teammates and Counters:
-Pokemon that hate Steel- or Rock-types (depending on last move of choice). Swellow, Scyther, Arcanine, and Venusaur love a Registeel or Rhyperior out of the way.
-Fighting types like Hitmonlee and Hitmontop enjoy Mismagius and Rotom out of the way, and they both can take down Steel- and Rock-types to aid Ambipom.
-A status absorber (Will-o-Wisp). Houndoom, Arcanine, and Restalk Milotic work well.
-Prediction is the number one counter. Rhyperior can switch-in on most moves but hates being nailed by Seed Bomb, Ghosts like switching on Return, etc..
-Spiritomb, and bulky Pokemon like Tangrowth, Weezing, etc...
 
Nature: Modest
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Surely you mean Jolly, right??

Anyway, while I like this set, I can't see why we can't just slash CB onto the current "Attacker" set or whatever it's called these days. Does it play any differently, or does it get kills that LO or Silk Scarf doesn't??
 
Seconding everything Shrang posted. There needs to be a strong reason given as to why this is better than the LO set, especially considering that Fake Out -> Attack is what makes the LO set so potent (something this can't do).
 
This could be slashed onto the Life Orb set, no?
Also, Fake Out deserves a slash as powerful priority, over Seed Bomb. What is Seed Bomb for anyway, aren't most Rhyperior 2KOd by Low Kick?
 
There are some certain benefits in using Choice Band over Life Orb on Ambipom. Here's a few calculations that show some Pokemon being OHKOed/2HKOed by CB:

Return:

252 / 252 + Milotic: 44.5% - 52.7% (80% chance of a 2HKO after SR + Lefties)
0 / 4 Neutral Venusaur: 80.7% - 95% (~50% chance of a OHKO after SR)
80 / 252 + Hariyama: 45.4% - 53.7% (~40% chance of a 2HKO after SR + Lefties)

Pursuit (Non-Switch Technician Boost):

0 / 0 Neutral Rotom: 84.6% - 99.6% (pretty much a OHKO after SR)
252 / 252 + Rotom: 46.1% - 54.6% (2HKO after SR)
252 / 0 Neutral Mismagius: 76.5% - 90.1% (small chance of a OHKO after SR)

Low Kick:

252 / 0 Neutral Steelix: 50.3% - 59.3% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
136 / 0 Neutral Rhyperior: 48.1% - 57% (2HKO after SR + Lefties)
252 / 0 Neutral Regirock: 48.9% - 57.7% (2HKO after SR + Lefties)

There are other examples, but these are the most important targets. Life Orb cannot achieve any of these KO's, and using Fake Out guarantees you at least one move against Ambipom (not to mention at least a 20% damage loss because of recoil). Note that only Registeel is the only common wall/tank where Life Orb can 2HKO as well.

As for differentiating playstyles, I assume that CBAmbipom takes advantage of its increased U-Turn Scouting abilities. With a Choice Band, U-Turn is powered up by 1.5x as opposed to 1.3x, and most importantly, Ambipom does not take 10% damage every time it uses it to switch out. It then can also score 2HKOes and OHKOes on all the aformentioned Pokemon in the calculations when needed. It is much more threatening switching into a CB Return than a Life Orb Fake Out. Also note that Life Orb Ambipom does not use Return, and if it does, it usually does not have Fake Out, making that a moot point.

Thus, CBAmbipom can be greatly compared to CBScyther in its purpose. CBScyther had a higher Attack and STAB on U-Turn, but Ambipom is much faster, has no SR weakness (Scyther is x4), and has access to a better Fighting move.

It definitely deserves a mention. It may even call for its own set as well, since Fake Out is not used whatsoever, and the playstyle is much different.
 
Thank you drkslay. I was going to post calcs I had saved today but something unexpected came up. He got the gist of it though, hit with decently powered U-turn to scout and remove certain threats for teammates or to sweep late game with Return, the power is pretty awesome. Also Fake out plays differently, and IMO is a terrible move because it opens Ambipom to so many threats and basically gives your opponent a free switch.

Ps Shrang nice find. :)
 
I don't get why this set gets no interest what so ever. great scouting abilities, better than Scyther in this aspect due to a higher speed and neutrality to Pointed Stones, powerful late game cleaner with CB STAB Return, and the ability to trap ghosts by outspeeding and blowing them up with CB Pursuit.
(I didn't post calculations because some of the most important were posted above.)
 
anti404 said:
I don't get why this set gets no interest what so ever. great scouting abilities, better than Scyther in this aspect due to a higher speed and neutrality to Pointed Stones, powerful late game cleaner with CB STAB Return, and the ability to trap ghosts by outspeeding and blowing them up with CB Pursuit.
(I didn't post calculations because some of the most important were posted above.)
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No-one's denying that this is a pretty good set. It's just that we don't think it's worth it to write a whole analysis when we can just slash CB and possibly an extra paragraph onto the current "Attacker" set that we already have.
 
shrang said:
No-one's denying that this is a pretty good set. It's just that we don't think it's worth it to write a whole analysis when we can just slash CB and possibly an extra paragraph onto the current "Attacker" set that we already have.
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I think from personal use it plays far differently from the Life Orb Attacker set. first and foremost, it takes far more prediction as you cannot just mash Fake Out+attack. furthermore, it is much more of a scout than the Life Orb set, as it doesn't have to deal with recoil and other damage.
I guess I just feel it has a very different play style, and thus deserves a unique analysis.
 
Still feel the same way about this. Actually ran into a CB Ambipom once, figured out the set based on damage output from U-Turn on Spiritomb and just treated it like a crappier Tauros after that, which is basically what it is. Ambipom might get some more 2hkos with Choice Band, but no one is going to leave in a Registeel on it after they see Low Kick's damage. They'll just go to Spiritomb and Pursuit your helpless ass. It also doesn't have nearly as many switch-in opportunities, which is vital to a Choice Bander; at least Tauros has Intimidate and great physical bulk, along with decent special bulk. Ambipom is just better off playing a revenge killing game with Life Orb, and any prediction-oriented arguments against the LO set (like "fake out gives free turns") apply doubly so to the Choice Band set, since you can't even switch moves if you use the wrong one.
 
That's because people love comparing this to the standard LO set, when they play completely differently. The whole point is to U-turn spam because Ambipom forces Pokemon to switch (no one should say Scyther outclasses it because Ambipom doesn't eat 50% every time it switches in). It's a great set for offensive teams because Swellow/Mismagius/whatever enjoy any of their main counters eliminated. You could argue that 'Well, the Life Orb set can run Low Kick or Pursuit as well,' but when you realize that you've already given 2 moveslots to Fake Out + Taunt, (and you'd want U-turn in there as well), the LO set doesn't have the coverage to beat the threats that the Choice Bander can.

Yes it's very prediction reliant, but if I know that you have a Registeel and Spiritomb, after that first Low Kick on Registeel I'll just go to my Houndoom and fuck Spiritomb over. Prediction is a two-way-street.
 
The whole point is to U-turn spam because Ambipom forces Pokemon to switch (no one should say Scyther outclasses it because Ambipom doesn't eat 50% every time it switches in).
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You can't do this with the LO set?? Yes, you usually Fake Out the first turn, but you don't have to. You take 22% from SR and LO recoil every time you do this, but it's not like Ambipom lasts a long time anyway. This is not to mention Fake Out is actually quite useful at times.
 
People are comparing this to the LO set because the LO set is better.

They "play differently" only because you say that people should use this set a certain way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with spamming U-Turn on the LO set, and the 10% extra damage is peanuts compared to the fact that you can switch moves instead of getting stuck on Return against a big scary Rhyperior.

In other words, you can take the set you posted in the OP, replace the item with Life Orb, and get better results simply due to Ambipom's role on an offensive team. What I mean by that is, if Ambipom had a useful immunity, multiple quad resists, and highly threatening STABs like Scyther, or Tauros/Kanghaskhan's excellent natural bulk and abilities, or even Swellow's immunity to status and high speed, then it could make a decent Choice Bander. But as it is, it can only come in after revenge or against choice-locked ghost moves (>_>). In cases like that, you can't really afford to be stuck in crappy moves, since the amount of times you're going to be able to switch in per match is highly limited. LO Ambipom can come in, throw some damage around, and weaken cores by threatening its common switch-ins with SE hits. CB Ambipom can, with proper prediction, hit one of its switch-ins SE for marginally more damage. But then what? It's forced out immediately afterwards by any competent player, which would be fine if it got a lot of opportunities to switch in...but as I just covered, it doesn't.
And don't say "well I switch in Houndoom into Spiritomb", because predicting against a choice-locked Pokemon and predicting against the possibility of one of 5 other Pokemon on a team coming in, or even the possibility of your counter staying in and Twaving, is entirely different.

tldr Ambipom is a mediocre choice bander because it has no traits that let it switch into anything, unlike Scyther or Tauros. The LO variant can do everything it does better due to not having to predict perfectly in order to do any meaningful damage in the few occasions when it manages to get in.
 
FlareBlitz said:
People are comparing this to the LO set because the LO set is better.

They "play differently" only because you say that people should use this set a certain way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with spamming U-Turn on the LO set, and the 10% extra damage is peanuts compared to the fact that you can switch moves instead of getting stuck on Return against a big scary Rhyperior.

In other words, you can take the set you posted in the OP, replace the item with Life Orb, and get better results simply due to Ambipom's role on an offensive team. What I mean by that is, if Ambipom had a useful immunity, multiple quad resists, and highly threatening STABs like Scyther, or Tauros/Kanghaskhan's excellent natural bulk and abilities, or even Swellow's immunity to status and high speed, then it could make a decent Choice Bander. But as it is, it can only come in after revenge or against choice-locked ghost moves (>_>). In cases like that, you can't really afford to be stuck in crappy moves, since the amount of times you're going to be able to switch in per match is highly limited. LO Ambipom can come in, throw some damage around, and weaken cores by threatening its common switch-ins with SE hits. CB Ambipom can, with proper prediction, hit one of its switch-ins SE for marginally more damage. But then what? It's forced out immediately afterwards by any competent player, which would be fine if it got a lot of opportunities to switch in...but as I just covered, it doesn't.
And don't say "well I switch in Houndoom into Spiritomb", because predicting against a choice-locked Pokemon and predicting against the possibility of one of 5 other Pokemon on a team coming in, or even the possibility of your counter staying in and Twaving, is entirely different.

tldr Ambipom is a mediocre choice bander because it has no traits that let it switch into anything, unlike Scyther or Tauros. The LO variant can do everything it does better due to not having to predict perfectly in order to do any meaningful damage in the few occasions when it manages to get in.
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FlareBlitz pretty much summed it up.

Even if he has no experience with CB Ambipom, which he might not (I'm not implying anything bad), I have used a CB Ambipom before. To be honest, it wasn't that great, and I got only one kill with it in a battle if I was doing well. Sometimes, I didn't even get a kill. I will admit that it might have been just bad luck, but either way, I found that "Choice Band" and "Ambipom" didn't match up. The LO set almost completely outclasses this set, unfortunately. Good try, though.
 
I still fail to see why people are comparing this to the LO set; this plays more as a late game cleaner and scout than an early game hole puncher.
as compared to Tauros, this set is better at maintaining momentum and scouting counters.
as compared to Scyther, this set does not need Stealth Rock support to scout and late game clean, and it also outruns Mismagius/Scyther/Manectric without relying on a 50% chance.
as compared to the LO set, this hits harder(ughguhhh), is more unpredictable, doesn't have to sacrifice a move slot for a mediocre and easily predictable move(Fake Out means Ambipom will have to leave out Return, Pursuit, U-Turn, or Low Kick, thus losing coverage or a reliable late game stab move)and doesn't have to deal with recoil+SR damage.
I used this set a lot of times with a double normal team. `.`
 
as compared to the LO set, this hits harder(ughguhhh), is more unpredictable, doesn't have to sacrifice a move slot for a mediocre and easily predictable move(Fake Out means Ambipom will have to leave out Return, Pursuit, U-Turn, or Low Kick, thus losing coverage or a reliable late game stab move)and doesn't have to deal with recoil+SR damage.
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Bolded sections is pretty much the only benefits of running CB. How is LO more predictable?? If you think about it, CB is much more predictable because it is locked into one attack. You can use the same set in the OP, but use Life Orb for the same thing (Which we could just slash a move over Fake Out in the Attacker set).

doesn't have to sacrifice a move slot for a mediocre and easily predictable move
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I wouldn't call Fake Out mediocre, it can let you check stuff like Hitmonlee who would otherwise Mach Punch you (Or Scarf CC you). It's also predicatable because people play it that way, there is nothing wrong with just spamming U-Turn on the first turn and using Fake Out when you really need to. I've also mentioned that you don't even have to run Fake Out and just run the same set in the OP anyway.
 
shrang said:
I've also mentioned that you don't even have to run Fake Out and just run the same set in the OP anyway.
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The problem is that people don't know it's viable if they look at the current Ambipom analysis.

Anyways, I'm content with just mentioning or slashing CB on the LO attacker set. There are other UU sets that need more attention and after those are complete maybe we can discuss this again.
 
yeah, if you think this set has so few advantages over the LO attacker set, then I feel you should still at least give it a mention in AC or something, as the two sets have distinct differences.
my biggest issue with not including this set is that many of the downsides seem to be based on the ease of prediction in comparison to the LO set or similarity to other Band attackers, but neutrality to Stealth Rock, U-Turn, lack of recoil, and better coverage moves+some significant KOs, in my opinion, give it enough to at least warrant testing+AC.
 
I'm not saying this set is bad, I never have. It's just I don't think we need to spend heaps of effort to write up an analysis for a set that is quite similar to one we have on-site already. Slashing CB onto the set is pretty much enough, IMO.
 
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