Alolan Rattata, Raticate Discussion

DHR-107

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
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Rattata
Dark/Normal
Abilities: Gluttony/Hustle/Thick Fat
HP: 30
Atk: 56
Def: 35
SpAtk: 25
SpDef: 35
Spe: 72
Level Up
Start - Tackle
Start - Tail Whip
L4 - Quick Attack
L7 - Focus Energy
L10 - Bite
L13 - Pursuit
L16 - Hyper Fang
L19 - Assurance
L22 - Crunch
L25 - Sucker Punch
L28 - Super Fang
L31 - Double-Edge
L34 - Endeavor

TMs

TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM12 - Taunt
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM14 - Blizzard
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM21 - Frustration
TM27 - Return
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM48 - Round
TM60 - Quash
TM63 - Embargo
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM87 - Swagger
TM88 - Sleep Talk
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
TM95 - Snarl
TM97 - Dark Pulse
TM100 - Confide

Egg moves

Egg - Snatch
Egg - Stockpile
Egg - Fury Swipes
Egg - Switcheroo
Egg - Counter
Egg - Reversal
Egg - Uproar
Egg - Swallow
Egg - Me First
Egg - Revenge
Egg - Final Gambit

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Raticate
Dark/Normal
Abilities: Gluttony/Hustle/Thick Fat
HP: 75
Atk: 71
Def: 70
SpAtk: 40
SpDef: 80
Spe: 77
Level Up

Start - Scary Face
Start - Scary Face
Start - Swords Dance
Start - Tackle
Start - Tail Whip
Start - Quick Attack
Start - Focus Energy
L4 - Quick Attack
L7 - Focus Energy
L10 - Bite
L13 - Pursuit
L16 - Hyper Fang
L19 - Assurance
L24 - Crunch
L29 - Sucker Punch
L34 - Super Fang
L39 - Double-Edge
L44 - Endeavor

TMs

TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM08 - Bulk Up
TM09 - Venoshock
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM12 - Taunt
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM14 - Blizzard
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM21 - Frustration
TM27 - Return
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Sludge Wave
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM48 - Round
TM60 - Quash
TM63 - Embargo
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM75 - Swords Dance
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM87 - Swagger
TM88 - Sleep Talk
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
TM95 - Snarl
TM97 - Dark Pulse
TM100 - Confide
Egg moves

Egg - Snatch
Egg - Stockpile
Egg - Fury Swipes
Egg - Switcheroo
Egg - Counter
Egg - Reversal
Egg - Uproar
Egg - Swallow
Egg - Me First
Egg - Revenge
Egg - Final Gambit
 
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After Hustle, it has similar stats to Absol (130 vs roughly 131 after Hustle, 75 vs 77). If this is viable in RU (highest I could POSSIBLY see it), it'll be because normal stab (double edge/return + quick attack) can edge out a niche that losing 80% accuracy doesn't diminish. Which I'm doubtful of now that I've done the math, unfortunately.

Unfortunate that it lost 10 attack and 20 speed from regular Raticate and sucker lost 10 base power, because I was actually semi-excited for this thing to be a huge sleeper threat (in RU) when I first saw it, as an RU player. Now? It seems like a worse variant of an existing mon with a very very small niche that could place it at the very low end of viable. A shame.
 
Lord Death Man said:
After Hustle, it has similar stats to Absol (130 vs roughly 131 after Hustle, 75 vs 77). If this is viable in RU (highest I could POSSIBLY see it), it'll be because normal stab (double edge/return + quick attack) can edge out a niche that losing 80% accuracy doesn't diminish. Which I'm doubtful of now that I've done the math, unfortunately.

Unfortunate that it lost 10 attack and 20 speed from regular Raticate and sucker lost 10 base power, because I was actually semi-excited for this thing to be a huge sleeper threat (in RU) when I first saw it, as an RU player. Now? It seems like a worse variant of an existing mon with a very very small niche that could place it at the very low end of viable. A shame.
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but wouldn't it be better than absol? The normal STAB is really useful, and if it uses double-edge it outdamages absol by quite a bit. And while it's not bulky, it's not frail as piss like absol is, which helps with setting up swords dance and whatever else. Absol does have knock off and perfect accuracy but I would still say raticate has the edge.

that said I can't say I'm not disappointed too, especially given how it is my favorite alolan form. The HP increase is very welcome for flavor purposes, and the speed decrease was inevitable and I'm glad it didn't drop all the way to base 67 like I was worried would happen, but why the fuck did they decrease its attack? I was expecting a +10 increase if anyfin, which would have brought it to an effective base 160, quite a bit better than the base 131 it has now. Geez.
 
Exor said:
but wouldn't it be better than absol? The normal STAB is really useful, and if it uses double-edge it outdamages absol by quite a bit. And while it's not bulky, it's not frail as piss like absol is, which helps with setting up swords dance and whatever else. Absol does have knock off and perfect accuracy but I would still say raticate has the edge.

that said I can't say I'm not disappointed too, especially given how it is my favorite alolan form. The HP increase is very welcome for flavor purposes, and the speed decrease was inevitable and I'm glad it didn't drop all the way to base 67 like I was worried would happen, but why the fuck did they decrease its attack? I was expecting a +10 increase if anyfin, which would have brought it to an effective base 160, quite a bit better than the base 131 it has now. Geez.
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80% chance to miss because of Hustle makes it worse about 20% of the time, unfortunately.
 
Trash just trash. Alolan Raticate is 100% garbage. Just like Midnight Lycanroc, the base stat changes due it zero favors. Alolan Raticate is still frail and has bad defensive typing. Losing Guts in favor of Hustle is the final nail for A-Raticate. Probably the worst Alolan form. Little reason to use it over normal Raticate unless nerfed Sucker Punch and STAB pursuit tickle your fancy.
 
BENDIEZ said:
Trash just trash. Alolan Raticate is 100% garbage. Just like Midnight Lycanroc, the base stat changes due it zero favors. Alolan Raticate is still frail and has bad defensive typing. Losing Guts in favor of Hustle is the final nail for A-Raticate. Probably the worst Alolan form. Little reason to use it over normal Raticate unless nerfed Sucker Punch and STAB pursuit tickle your fancy.
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Yeah, instead of Alolan Raticate existing, Alolan Machamp would of been of better.
 
This fat rat is a huge disappointment. Not only does regular Raticate outclass it offensively, but defensively it's also worse, as it's now basically guaranteed to die from any Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave, and is weak to Golisopod's signature move and faries, neither of which it can hurt at all.

At least there's Alolan Persian...
 
lol why the hell is everyone saying regular rat outclasses this? Vanilla raticate is just another mostly generic normal-type with its only saving grace being the power it gets from guts or hustle, and it has bad coverage, faticate's dark STAB helps it hugely and it has only slightly less power. Not to mention the utility it gains from STAB sucker punch and pursuit. It's also better defensively because it actually has these things called resists now, and while it's x4 weak to fighting it's not like vanillacate is taking any fighting hits either with its 55/60 bulk.

I'm really wondering just what everyone was expecting from this thing, it literally gained half its body weight in alola of course it's going to lose speed and gain bulk. The attack loss sucks but it's not like it's suddenly complete shit just because of that.
 
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Exor said:
lol why the hell is everyone saying regular rat outclasses this? Vanilla raticate is just another mostly generic normal-type with its only saving grace being the power it gets from guts or hustle, and it has bad coverage, faticate's dark STAB helps it hugely and it has only slightly less power. Not to mention the utility it gains from STAB sucker punch and pursuit. It's also better defensively because it actually has these things called resists now, and while it's x4 weak to fighting it's not like vanillacate is taking any fighting hits either with its 55/60 bulk.

I'm really wondering just what everyone was expecting from this thing, it literally gained half its body weight in alola of course it's going to lose speed and gain bulk. The attack loss sucks but it's not like it's suddenly complete shit just because of that.
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Guts Facade from regular Raticate hits really hard. Yeah, STAB Sucker Punch is nice, but in a generation where priority is getting nerfed I wouldn't count on it too much. Plus, Hustle is the only way you are getting any good power out of Alolan Raticate, and there is a 20% chance your turn is wasted.
 
So Alolan Raticate has worse stats than regular Raticate? Well, Hustle Choice Band has now a stronger Crunch than its normal counterpart... though it is slower which sucks.
 
While Alolan Ratatta's stats didn't change, Alolan Raticate's did in a lot of ways. I think it had the most changes done with its stats (and the only one to have a change to its HP). It became more defensive, 20 Speed went to HP, and 10 in Attack and Special Attack went to Defense and Special Defense. It also gets Thick Fat.

Not a major change to its level-up or TM, but in Egg Moves it got Stockpile and Swallow (wait, can't you only get one Egg Move?). But even with its more defensive set I doubt it'll put Raticate's name on the competitive field (especially since it now has a quadruple weakness to Fighting). It's a nice try, but its low BST and the quadruple weakness stops it.
 
While its a shame this mon has mediocre attacking stats, I do think it has potential as a good Psychic / Ghost Killer in the lower tiers. Ghost and Psychic immunities backed up by Hustle Boosted Sucker Punch, Crunch, and Pursuit give it good potential in this role. Shame that it lost guts though, since it would have more reliably allowed Raticate to switch into will-o-wisps much easier.

Swords Dance sets might be pretty good too, though I think the accuracy loss from Hustle makes them a bit too unreliable unless you run something like Wide Lens on them. That being said, thanks to its newfound STAB on Sucker Punch, Alolan Raticate is able to OHKO alot of offensive pokemon after a boost like Floatzel and Electivire, while also doing over 80% damage to Physical walls like Weezing with Double Edge, all with a Jolly nature and no boosting item, so SD sets definetly have the potential to be very threatening.

pikachuguy said:
This fat rat is a huge disappointment. Not only does regular Raticate outclass it offensively, but defensively it's also worse, as it's now basically guaranteed to die from any Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave, and is weak to Golisopod's signature move and faries, neither of which it can hurt at all.

At least there's Alolan Persian...
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Its not like regular Raticate was surviving any of these moves anyways thanks to its terrible bulk.
 
Exor said:
lol why the hell is everyone saying regular rat outclasses this? Vanilla raticate is just another mostly generic normal-type with its only saving grace being the power it gets from guts or hustle, and it has bad coverage, faticate's dark STAB helps it hugely and it has only slightly less power. Not to mention the utility it gains from STAB sucker punch and pursuit. It's also better defensively because it actually has these things called resists now, and while it's x4 weak to fighting it's not like vanillacate is taking any fighting hits either with its 55/60 bulk.

I'm really wondering just what everyone was expecting from this thing, it literally gained half its body weight in alola of course it's going to lose speed and gain bulk. The attack loss sucks but it's not like it's suddenly complete shit just because of that.
Click to expand...

Awesome way to look at it man. We shouldn't expect him to be amazing really, but dual priority STAB and Double Edge all with Hustle and Swords Dance is usableish. My set thinking:

Rattata @ Wide Lens OR Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance

The increased bulk, while certainly minimal, helps him to set up at least.
 
Pignot said:
Awesome way to look at it man. We shouldn't expect him to be amazing really, but dual priority STAB and Double Edge all with Hustle and Swords Dance is usableish. My set thinking:

Rattata @ Wide Lens OR Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance

The increased bulk, while certainly minimal, helps him to set up at least.
Click to expand...
*woman

Glad to see someone else being optimistic. That set could work, though I'm thinking crunch is a better option over either sucker punch or quick attack for hitting steels, ghosts, and rocks. Quick attack is more of an option now thanks to sucker punch being weakened, but 70 bp is still massively higher than 40 bp, so I'd probs still stick with sucker.
 
Ugh, they really screwed it over with the decreased attack and speed- with normal rat's stats it could've terrorised PU at the least:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 227-269 (84.3 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What is mach punch??? Still though, the STAB combo with it hitting very hard will be interesting in lower tiers.
 
Exor said:
*woman

Glad to see someone else being optimistic. That set could work, though I'm thinking crunch is a better option over either sucker punch or quick attack for hitting steels, ghosts, and rocks. Quick attack is more of an option now thanks to sucker punch being weakened, but 70 bp is still massively higher than 40 bp, so I'd probs still stick with sucker.
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Sorry about that. Mainly was just using "man" as a matter of speech. Apologies for that.

Yeah, you're probably right. Quick Attack has way less prediction as well. But I just love priority, so I guess I just wanted to put on as much as possible :P
 
*sight*

It gets tiresome to read these single Pokemon threads only to find people saying "this pokemon sucks" in two thirds of the discussion length. As if people expected A-Raticate to blow them away?

With the added bulk A-Raticate might actually switch into something without dying (now sporting actual resistances and an extra immunity) and his movepool just became a bit more threatening. It's worth noting that Hustle boosts offensive Z-moves without making them miss, so A-Raticate can pull of a one-time nuke with it's better STAB reliably.
 
Skankovich said:
Ugh, they really screwed it over with the decreased attack and speed- with normal rat's stats it could've terrorised PU at the least:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Hustle Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 227-269 (84.3 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What is mach punch??? Still though, the STAB combo with it hitting very hard will be interesting in lower tiers.
Click to expand...
Mach Punch is a priority Fighting move. And since Faticate is fittingly slow, most Mach Punches would out-prioritize its own Sucker Punch. And its largely shallow movepool isn't doing it any favors either.
 
Schmedly said:
Mach Punch is a priority Fighting move. And since Faticate is fittingly slow, most Mach Punches would out-prioritize its own Sucker Punch. And its largely shallow movepool isn't doing it any favors either.
Click to expand...

The idea was with its normal stats Sucker Punch would've outsped Monferno's Mach Punch and killed it with Sucker (Pre-nerf at least). That said, I don't think its movepool is the issue, since Normal/Dark hits like all but like, 4 pokemon neutrally- but it's too bad it doesn't get Knock Off.

I can see Band doing some work in lower tiers, with its better bulk and more usable resistances letting it switch in and fire off really powerful Hustle boosted Returns and Crunches, and with what's actually the strongest Pursuit in the game. Along with some STAB priority and U-turn I think it could be a pretty good set for it.
 
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