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Lower Tiers ADV Ubers Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter SEA
- Start date
Here are a decent chunk of (unfortunately similar) teams from my builder which I a. built myself at one point b. consider at least somewhat viable. Some of the movesets need a bit of changing, i.e. SuperOgre on teams without a reliable stallbreaker or Overheat Groudon on the Banded Lugia team, but these are my teams as they were originally built. Next, I'd like to talk about a handful of sets that my team and I explored this season.
If you notice a trend among these, a lot of people kind of blindly accept that "sun stall is the best playstyle in the tier" but I feel like they don't actually do anything about it. Similarly, a lot of people tend to use sun stalls because it is the so-called best playstyle in the tier, making it pretty noteworthy to prepare for in every game. In every team I used this season, I made sure to have a sufficient amount of sun stall counterplay, and several of the sets I used are contained here (as well as a few extra).
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 80 HP / 152 Atk / 8 Def / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball
- Protect
This one was a Heysup tech, not mine. We brought it 3 times, actually, but we never got to use it. Basically, spread paralysis early, then you never have the problem of being unable to break Lugia sun stalls. Not a move you end up clicking in most matchups, but one you love to have in the matchups it is intended for.
Rayquaza @ Leftovers
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 212 HP / 56 Atk / 16 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Roar
Sun Stall 6-0er. EVed to not have your Substitute break from no investment Groudon HP Ghost. Fast enough to set up a sub on most Lugias, then with a DD, begin to phase everything around and slap it. Works best with Spikes.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Rain Dance
- Surf
A concept I stole from ADV OU Suicune, a lot of bulkier teams rely on Groudon resetting the weather vs Sub CM Kyogre, and this totally puts a stop to that. Dropping Ice Beam blows, but such is life.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Surf
Water Spout at +1 reliably 2HKOes Blissey, and it's a fantastic way to force Latios to click Recover while hitting everything else with an incredibly strong water move, allowing you to get free entry to your Snorlax.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 32 HP / 96 Atk / 112 Def / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Thunder
I brought this set because I know my tendency of using Curse Bslam EQ Protect Snorlax, which hard blanks into Skarmory. So, in an effort to try and catch an opposing Skarmory off guard, I slapped Thunder on my Snorlax.
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Sing
Unironically super broken. No longer is Bliss complete setup fodder and the most passive thing on the planet. Allows you to use Deo-A a lot more aggressively if you land a Sing onto a Metagross or a Groudon, or gives you free setup turns with a Pokemon like Sub CM Kyogre. You have to give up an otherwise valuable move for Sing, which kinda sucks, but it is 100% worth it.
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 204 HP / 16 Def / 112 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Recover
Another sun stall 6-0er. If you choose to set this up as your last mon, there is simply nothing they can do. It PP stalls Latios, which is hilarious, and even PP stalls Hydro Pump Kyogre. Works in other matchups because the Pokemon it lures in to beat exist on other teams commonly, and Pressure + 32 PP Recover + Substitute is really hard to be useless.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Rock Slide
People often try to use their Sp.Def Groudon as their Metagross answer, and this completely flips that matchup on its head. You outspeed the majority of Groudon and have incredibly favorable odds to 2HKO them. Note that because you are not Leftovers, your opponent has no idea that you very likely outspeed them. However, note that this also works both ways: you are not certain that you are faster than them. Fast CB Rock Slide is also great for getting the jump on bulkier Ho-Ohs.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 80 HP / 168 Def / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Counter
- Protect
Fantastic way of baiting SD Groudon. At +1, click Protect, they will EQ into your Counter and get annihilated. Also great at destroying Metagross attempting to Mash through you.
This is a beautiful metagame, and I'm glad to have played in UPL this year! Hopefully I get a chance another time, this was a total blast.
If you notice a trend among these, a lot of people kind of blindly accept that "sun stall is the best playstyle in the tier" but I feel like they don't actually do anything about it. Similarly, a lot of people tend to use sun stalls because it is the so-called best playstyle in the tier, making it pretty noteworthy to prepare for in every game. In every team I used this season, I made sure to have a sufficient amount of sun stall counterplay, and several of the sets I used are contained here (as well as a few extra).
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 80 HP / 152 Atk / 8 Def / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball
- Protect
This one was a Heysup tech, not mine. We brought it 3 times, actually, but we never got to use it. Basically, spread paralysis early, then you never have the problem of being unable to break Lugia sun stalls. Not a move you end up clicking in most matchups, but one you love to have in the matchups it is intended for.
Rayquaza @ Leftovers
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 212 HP / 56 Atk / 16 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Roar
Sun Stall 6-0er. EVed to not have your Substitute break from no investment Groudon HP Ghost. Fast enough to set up a sub on most Lugias, then with a DD, begin to phase everything around and slap it. Works best with Spikes.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Rain Dance
- Surf
A concept I stole from ADV OU Suicune, a lot of bulkier teams rely on Groudon resetting the weather vs Sub CM Kyogre, and this totally puts a stop to that. Dropping Ice Beam blows, but such is life.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Surf
Water Spout at +1 reliably 2HKOes Blissey, and it's a fantastic way to force Latios to click Recover while hitting everything else with an incredibly strong water move, allowing you to get free entry to your Snorlax.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 32 HP / 96 Atk / 112 Def / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Thunder
I brought this set because I know my tendency of using Curse Bslam EQ Protect Snorlax, which hard blanks into Skarmory. So, in an effort to try and catch an opposing Skarmory off guard, I slapped Thunder on my Snorlax.
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Sing
Unironically super broken. No longer is Bliss complete setup fodder and the most passive thing on the planet. Allows you to use Deo-A a lot more aggressively if you land a Sing onto a Metagross or a Groudon, or gives you free setup turns with a Pokemon like Sub CM Kyogre. You have to give up an otherwise valuable move for Sing, which kinda sucks, but it is 100% worth it.
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 204 HP / 16 Def / 112 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Recover
Another sun stall 6-0er. If you choose to set this up as your last mon, there is simply nothing they can do. It PP stalls Latios, which is hilarious, and even PP stalls Hydro Pump Kyogre. Works in other matchups because the Pokemon it lures in to beat exist on other teams commonly, and Pressure + 32 PP Recover + Substitute is really hard to be useless.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Rock Slide
People often try to use their Sp.Def Groudon as their Metagross answer, and this completely flips that matchup on its head. You outspeed the majority of Groudon and have incredibly favorable odds to 2HKO them. Note that because you are not Leftovers, your opponent has no idea that you very likely outspeed them. However, note that this also works both ways: you are not certain that you are faster than them. Fast CB Rock Slide is also great for getting the jump on bulkier Ho-Ohs.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 80 HP / 168 Def / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Counter
- Protect
Fantastic way of baiting SD Groudon. At +1, click Protect, they will EQ into your Counter and get annihilated. Also great at destroying Metagross attempting to Mash through you.
This is a beautiful metagame, and I'm glad to have played in UPL this year! Hopefully I get a chance another time, this was a total blast.
i really think shedinja is pretty good
it needs *significant* team support in consistent spinning, but it is possible generally to spin on stuff like skarm and other forry with one's own forry; and niche spinners like starmie can spin on nearly everything with spikes. jolly shed is surprisingly resilient to pursuit, being able to escape slower meta; and bp means that to actually catch it they will usually need to double into shed, which a good player (not me lol) can take advantage of.
similarly, because shed cannot be touched whatsoever by what it switches into and because it grabs momentum easily with bp the best way of dealing with it is to double as it switches in, which again is exploitable.
its function of walling many stallbreakers and absorbing explosions is useful on stall, and its ability to grab momentum easily and force plays is useful on faster-paced stuff. it remains somewhat a matchup fish, as it still has a weakness to fast suit gross, spikers that its team cannot spin on, spinblockers, ttar, suit deo formes, etc.; and the number of targets it has on the opposing team is pretty variable. nevertheless, most teams will have at least a lati that shed's teammates can lure in and use as a platform, and it generally if played well has outs against these weaknesses, mainly by bping away or predicting a double.
possibly pair it with dug to trap meta, deod (?), ttar? maybe hooh as an alernate lati switchin to grab momentum if you expect a double to a physical attacker? counter bliss is a cool partner, so is deoa, so is starmie.
it needs *significant* team support in consistent spinning, but it is possible generally to spin on stuff like skarm and other forry with one's own forry; and niche spinners like starmie can spin on nearly everything with spikes. jolly shed is surprisingly resilient to pursuit, being able to escape slower meta; and bp means that to actually catch it they will usually need to double into shed, which a good player (not me lol) can take advantage of.
similarly, because shed cannot be touched whatsoever by what it switches into and because it grabs momentum easily with bp the best way of dealing with it is to double as it switches in, which again is exploitable.
its function of walling many stallbreakers and absorbing explosions is useful on stall, and its ability to grab momentum easily and force plays is useful on faster-paced stuff. it remains somewhat a matchup fish, as it still has a weakness to fast suit gross, spikers that its team cannot spin on, spinblockers, ttar, suit deo formes, etc.; and the number of targets it has on the opposing team is pretty variable. nevertheless, most teams will have at least a lati that shed's teammates can lure in and use as a platform, and it generally if played well has outs against these weaknesses, mainly by bping away or predicting a double.
possibly pair it with dug to trap meta, deod (?), ttar? maybe hooh as an alernate lati switchin to grab momentum if you expect a double to a physical attacker? counter bliss is a cool partner, so is deoa, so is starmie.
Since Lasen is having a really hard time getting tournament players to make their own personal VRs, I figured I would post my own. Most of it comes from a where does it fit, how dangerous is it, and what does it facilitate perspective.
E: added text!
S Rank
Nothing really changes here. The weather mons are still the best mons in the tier by far, Latios is still the most overall threatening check to them, and Deo-A is the most effective revenge-killer and dangerous cleaner in the tier.
A Rank
A+
I moved Snorlax up to mon #5 purely because of how many teams it fits on and works well with (stall can use it too alongside Blissey!). Metagross is after because it works on anything besides stall and has had a bit of diversification in its already dangerous movesets recently. Forre moves just below because of just how important Spikes + Spin is for fatter teams making it almost a requirement for them to work at all. Mewtwo is still a top 4 lead Pokemon and is still one of the most dangerous Pokemon the game has to offer just behind Deo-A. Blissey is a requirement stall teams and is still the only reliable pivot into 120 power eon twin moves and Kyogre Hydro Pumps we have.
A
Ho-Oh's does quite a few things very effectively including but not limited to having good odds of getting a nasty status condition a Kyogre, using a very threatening Choice Band set or even 3 attacks + Recover, or just straight sitting on the field walling out Pokemon with low BP moves against it between Pressure and 32 PP Recover. Its sub CM set is rather obnoxious as well. CB and Sub Salac Heracross are incredibly dangerous if the Megahorns hit and CB in particular can be rather annoying to KO if a team lacks Spikes. Sub Salac Heracross is the most dangerous Salac cleaner by far. Latias works better for a team when it absolutely cannot lose its eon twin to Kyogre paralysis nonsense and is therefor better at facilitating more niche mons who the weather duo may prey on than Latios though Latios's ability to absolutely destroy anything not named Blissey is usually preferred. A properly supported defensive Lugia if the hardest thing ever for just about any team to KO and so long as it has Spikes on the field, it has little trouble making progress. It's able to phaze literally everything (including boosting Pokemon) that isn't anchored to the floor when behind Blissey's Light Screen. It only fits on stall. CB Lugia is neat and can definitely do nasty things if the MU allows it too but that's the problem: it is MU dependent and there are usually better Pokemon for taking advantage of these MUs.
A-
Skarmory's defensive profile is very polarizing as it walls most of the physical metagame before random coverage moves (from Groudon and Snorlax), Forretress, and Magneton are thrown into the mix. It can kinda take on Metagross's Pursuit role as well though it isn't all that great at nabbing a Deoxys-A when put in direct comparison. Jirachi, whether it be SpD or Def, is an incredible pivot and is one of the primary causes for diversity in the sun balance archetype. It doesn't check all that much on its own though and between that and lack of Spikes / phazing, it is put below Skarm. Magneton takes away Skarmory's polarizing properties and Forretress's ability to take over the hazard game (usually) and will make something like a Sub Salac Groudon or Heracross or even and Aero really happy. Magneton really sucks on its own though and will lead to MU issues. Deo-D is probably the most reliable Spikes user the tier has while not being a complete blob thanks to Knock Off with the Toxic set being highly obnoxious as well. It is put down here because certain Pokemon above it take advantage of it really easily, short Taunt really sucks, and it has massive opportunity cost of locking you out of Deoxys-A.
B Rank
B+
Dusclops and Gengar end up here and next to each other being the effective spinblockers that get to do other things effectively. Dusclops is best for the longer game (usually) though it is effected by Spikes and comes with the added benefit of both threatening Deo-A and having a Pursuit for it on the way out. Gengar is incredibly hard for fatter teams to deal with between its fast Taunt, Wisp, Spikes immunity, and its wide coverage. It is put below Clops because Clops can afford to miss a couple Wisps against Snorlax whereas Gengar can't. Rayquaza is here because it usually functions like noticeably weaker Deo-A though sometimes the bulk is sometimes nice for opposing Deo-A. It can work alongside Deo-A or a Deo-D giving Deo-A freedom to forego Espeed and allowing the use of Deo-D at all which is a small plus for it. Omastar is a funny mon due to Swift Swim, High Power Water moves in rain, Spikes access, and Espeed resistance though these traits are somewhat difficult to make use of effectively. Dugtrio is really good at leaving a hole in an offensive and defensive backbones alike but does have trouble getting in and tends to cause notable MU issues is one isn't careful. Aero is another Espeed resistant cleaner but it is venerable any of Deo-A's other attacks and usually competes with it for a teamslot while possibly causing MU issues. STAB Rock Slide is nightmarish with proper support. Wob WILL cause MU issues with a team but can be tailored to reliably remove at least one of just about any Pokemon category you want so the hole can be taken advantage of offensively. Celebi is also a strong pivot but uses Leech Seed to cushion blows as opposed to Wish. It is sun balance-only mon with only one team it truly fits but that one team is rather strong. It can also BP SDs to teammates but those types of team tend to have quite a few flaws to them. Umbreon is similar to SD pass Celebi in that it is sun only, what it does (trap pass) is very very strong, and it will always leave your team with severe holes.
B
Lead Mew, Exegg, and Salamence are similar in that they do one thing well on certain team archetypes but the teamslot cost tend to make the teams weak to something or leaves them outclassed most of the time in Salamence's case. SD Mew is funny and potentially ruinous but is a bit of an explosion prediction game against Groudon unfortunately. Ninjask and Smeargle both lead off offense teams with one Spiking and Sporing and the other passing Speed and potentially SDs to teammates though both of them will cause problems with certain team archetypes. Qwilfish is cool because it Spikes and bombs but has weak attacks to work with outside of Self-Destruct and competes heavily with Omastar's superior attacking profile and typing. Ttar turns off Leftovers before weather is overwritten and can do a couple of cool things with its movesets but all of them are very hard to take advantage of properly. Its weaknesses really show. Kabutops is basically super Aerodactyl reliant on SS and can pull a nasty SD Flail set out of the blue. It has really bad Groudon and Metagross issues.
B-
Rain Dish Ludicolo is a decent Kyogre SI but will falter against sub variants. It can also make use of SS since Groudon wants nothing to do with it but it isn't super strong and competes with the better SS users. Deo-S has the massive opportunity cost of locking you out of Deo-A, doesn't have the resilience to use Spikes in places Deo-D can, and has the absolute worst 4mss of the three. The best thing it can really do over the other two is Spikes like Deo-D and fast Pursuit Deo-As. Victreebel could probably be higher as it actually has decent power for a chloro user thanks to Sleep Powder and SD making its STAB Sludge Bomb a weapon against the eons and Ho-Oh. Its resistance and bulk profile make Exegg look like a defensive monster, however. Slaking is stupid in every sense the word has. It hits stupid hard and you can't be stupid when using it as it has the dumbest set of drawbacks a Pokemon can have. These drawbacks include but are not limited to giving every sub user including the 3 extremely dangerous Salac users the freest sub ever while also getting blanked by anything that has Protect. Otherwise the gorillasloth just smashes everything with Magneton in tow.
C Rank (The UR/D rank chopping block)
D Rank
Nothing really changes here. The weather mons are still the best mons in the tier by far, Latios is still the most overall threatening check to them, and Deo-A is the most effective revenge-killer and dangerous cleaner in the tier.
A Rank
A+
I moved Snorlax up to mon #5 purely because of how many teams it fits on and works well with (stall can use it too alongside Blissey!). Metagross is after because it works on anything besides stall and has had a bit of diversification in its already dangerous movesets recently. Forre moves just below because of just how important Spikes + Spin is for fatter teams making it almost a requirement for them to work at all. Mewtwo is still a top 4 lead Pokemon and is still one of the most dangerous Pokemon the game has to offer just behind Deo-A. Blissey is a requirement stall teams and is still the only reliable pivot into 120 power eon twin moves and Kyogre Hydro Pumps we have.
A
Ho-Oh's does quite a few things very effectively including but not limited to having good odds of getting a nasty status condition a Kyogre, using a very threatening Choice Band set or even 3 attacks + Recover, or just straight sitting on the field walling out Pokemon with low BP moves against it between Pressure and 32 PP Recover. Its sub CM set is rather obnoxious as well. CB and Sub Salac Heracross are incredibly dangerous if the Megahorns hit and CB in particular can be rather annoying to KO if a team lacks Spikes. Sub Salac Heracross is the most dangerous Salac cleaner by far. Latias works better for a team when it absolutely cannot lose its eon twin to Kyogre paralysis nonsense and is therefor better at facilitating more niche mons who the weather duo may prey on than Latios though Latios's ability to absolutely destroy anything not named Blissey is usually preferred. A properly supported defensive Lugia if the hardest thing ever for just about any team to KO and so long as it has Spikes on the field, it has little trouble making progress. It's able to phaze literally everything (including boosting Pokemon) that isn't anchored to the floor when behind Blissey's Light Screen. It only fits on stall. CB Lugia is neat and can definitely do nasty things if the MU allows it too but that's the problem: it is MU dependent and there are usually better Pokemon for taking advantage of these MUs.
A-
Skarmory's defensive profile is very polarizing as it walls most of the physical metagame before random coverage moves (from Groudon and Snorlax), Forretress, and Magneton are thrown into the mix. It can kinda take on Metagross's Pursuit role as well though it isn't all that great at nabbing a Deoxys-A when put in direct comparison. Jirachi, whether it be SpD or Def, is an incredible pivot and is one of the primary causes for diversity in the sun balance archetype. It doesn't check all that much on its own though and between that and lack of Spikes / phazing, it is put below Skarm. Magneton takes away Skarmory's polarizing properties and Forretress's ability to take over the hazard game (usually) and will make something like a Sub Salac Groudon or Heracross or even and Aero really happy. Magneton really sucks on its own though and will lead to MU issues. Deo-D is probably the most reliable Spikes user the tier has while not being a complete blob thanks to Knock Off with the Toxic set being highly obnoxious as well. It is put down here because certain Pokemon above it take advantage of it really easily, short Taunt really sucks, and it has massive opportunity cost of locking you out of Deoxys-A.
B Rank
B+
Dusclops and Gengar end up here and next to each other being the effective spinblockers that get to do other things effectively. Dusclops is best for the longer game (usually) though it is effected by Spikes and comes with the added benefit of both threatening Deo-A and having a Pursuit for it on the way out. Gengar is incredibly hard for fatter teams to deal with between its fast Taunt, Wisp, Spikes immunity, and its wide coverage. It is put below Clops because Clops can afford to miss a couple Wisps against Snorlax whereas Gengar can't. Rayquaza is here because it usually functions like noticeably weaker Deo-A though sometimes the bulk is sometimes nice for opposing Deo-A. It can work alongside Deo-A or a Deo-D giving Deo-A freedom to forego Espeed and allowing the use of Deo-D at all which is a small plus for it. Omastar is a funny mon due to Swift Swim, High Power Water moves in rain, Spikes access, and Espeed resistance though these traits are somewhat difficult to make use of effectively. Dugtrio is really good at leaving a hole in an offensive and defensive backbones alike but does have trouble getting in and tends to cause notable MU issues is one isn't careful. Aero is another Espeed resistant cleaner but it is venerable any of Deo-A's other attacks and usually competes with it for a teamslot while possibly causing MU issues. STAB Rock Slide is nightmarish with proper support. Wob WILL cause MU issues with a team but can be tailored to reliably remove at least one of just about any Pokemon category you want so the hole can be taken advantage of offensively. Celebi is also a strong pivot but uses Leech Seed to cushion blows as opposed to Wish. It is sun balance-only mon with only one team it truly fits but that one team is rather strong. It can also BP SDs to teammates but those types of team tend to have quite a few flaws to them. Umbreon is similar to SD pass Celebi in that it is sun only, what it does (trap pass) is very very strong, and it will always leave your team with severe holes.
B
Lead Mew, Exegg, and Salamence are similar in that they do one thing well on certain team archetypes but the teamslot cost tend to make the teams weak to something or leaves them outclassed most of the time in Salamence's case. SD Mew is funny and potentially ruinous but is a bit of an explosion prediction game against Groudon unfortunately. Ninjask and Smeargle both lead off offense teams with one Spiking and Sporing and the other passing Speed and potentially SDs to teammates though both of them will cause problems with certain team archetypes. Qwilfish is cool because it Spikes and bombs but has weak attacks to work with outside of Self-Destruct and competes heavily with Omastar's superior attacking profile and typing. Ttar turns off Leftovers before weather is overwritten and can do a couple of cool things with its movesets but all of them are very hard to take advantage of properly. Its weaknesses really show. Kabutops is basically super Aerodactyl reliant on SS and can pull a nasty SD Flail set out of the blue. It has really bad Groudon and Metagross issues.
B-
Rain Dish Ludicolo is a decent Kyogre SI but will falter against sub variants. It can also make use of SS since Groudon wants nothing to do with it but it isn't super strong and competes with the better SS users. Deo-S has the massive opportunity cost of locking you out of Deo-A, doesn't have the resilience to use Spikes in places Deo-D can, and has the absolute worst 4mss of the three. The best thing it can really do over the other two is Spikes like Deo-D and fast Pursuit Deo-As. Victreebel could probably be higher as it actually has decent power for a chloro user thanks to Sleep Powder and SD making its STAB Sludge Bomb a weapon against the eons and Ho-Oh. Its resistance and bulk profile make Exegg look like a defensive monster, however. Slaking is stupid in every sense the word has. It hits stupid hard and you can't be stupid when using it as it has the dumbest set of drawbacks a Pokemon can have. These drawbacks include but are not limited to giving every sub user including the 3 extremely dangerous Salac users the freest sub ever while also getting blanked by anything that has Protect. Otherwise the gorillasloth just smashes everything with Magneton in tow.
C Rank (The UR/D rank chopping block)
D Rank
E: added text!
Last edited:
I’m sorry For This.
(I won’t do it again)
Team
I made this team for Adv Ubers because it was on the ROA spotlight. There is only one special mon on the team, so I will cut to the chase (the other mons do what they normally would). Slapcune. Broken. Simple. Slapcune is a hax mon, obviously. It usually secures games late game, as many mons can switch into it (although they will be toxiced, so they don’t switch in for free). If you intend to use Slapcune early game, you have to be sure to toxic substitute mons, as they beat Slapcune if not toxiced (the most common mon to switch into Slapcune is kyogre, so you often get a toxic onto it).
A battle I had with it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ubers-1388467909
Edit: I also made this Mewtwo set. You probably come in on a defensive mon and sub. Taunt stops opposing substitute. Taunt and mud-slap combo forces opponents into a corner, where they struggle to break your substitute with accuracy drops and cannot use status or phasing moves to force you out etc. Toxic is there to actually do damage. The evs allow for 101 subs and fast taunt, the leftovers can go into either spdef or pdef. Although this set is not there to stall as much as the Slapcune set, some might think it is more fitted to the meta game. (untested)
(I won’t do it again)
Team
I made this team for Adv Ubers because it was on the ROA spotlight. There is only one special mon on the team, so I will cut to the chase (the other mons do what they normally would). Slapcune. Broken. Simple. Slapcune is a hax mon, obviously. It usually secures games late game, as many mons can switch into it (although they will be toxiced, so they don’t switch in for free). If you intend to use Slapcune early game, you have to be sure to toxic substitute mons, as they beat Slapcune if not toxiced (the most common mon to switch into Slapcune is kyogre, so you often get a toxic onto it).
A battle I had with it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ubers-1388467909
Edit: I also made this Mewtwo set. You probably come in on a defensive mon and sub. Taunt stops opposing substitute. Taunt and mud-slap combo forces opponents into a corner, where they struggle to break your substitute with accuracy drops and cannot use status or phasing moves to force you out etc. Toxic is there to actually do damage. The evs allow for 101 subs and fast taunt, the leftovers can go into either spdef or pdef. Although this set is not there to stall as much as the Slapcune set, some might think it is more fitted to the meta game. (untested)
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Simply sitting on it with Snorlax and hitting it over and over again will work, same thing applies to Metagross.
Latias, if it is not carrying Roar, will have Refresh, and since Latias sucks, it will lose to just about every other Calm Minder in the 1v1.
Forretress can come in and eat any hit handily, meaning you can just come in and click Explosion.
Blissey can either be broken and carry Sing, or Toxic it and force it to click Refresh. This allows you to pivot around it a bit better, getting you free switch-ins to your otherwise frail attackers. Should you have Toxic + Snatch, you will be able to hard wall the Latias and prevent it from clicking Refresh ever.
Choice Band Deoxys-Attack, Spell Tag Deoxys-Attack, Heracross, and Choice Band Ho-Oh work well as revenge killers. Note that these need some amount of chip.
You could always trap it with Wobbuffet if that floats your boat, just Encore it into whatever then beat it down.
Teams will often use a Latias as a check to Groudon; using your Groudon to pull in the Latias and hitting it with a +2 HP Ghost is a good way to effectively remove it from the game.
Hello hello, welcome back to more ADV Ubers posting for the first time in forever, I have more TEAMS and SETS to talk about after my team's exit from UPL, so let's get started!
Tauros (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Return
- Hyper Beam
You lead it and trade quite well thanks to Intimidate, good enough bulk, and a monstrous move in Hyper Beam.
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 365-430 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 362-427 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 322-379 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 341-402 (112.9 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 365-430 (93.8 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mew: 334-394 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Even if you don't kill each of these, that is some fantastic chip. It also works as a Lax/Hera/Groudon pivot thanks to Intimidate if you don't just int it turn 1, and when paired with Magneton, it sets up extremely reliable Metagross traps.
Gyarados @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 76 Def / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Flail
- Earthquake
Metagross switch in, Kyogre/Groudon pivot, decent anti-Deo-A properties, and very good at forcing in opposing speed control.
Armaldo @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Rock Blast
- Rest
- Harden
Stall Pokemon, best Snorlax answer in the game bar none. Battle Armor is an amazing ability. Knock is general utility, Harden has the big PP for stalling and keeping up boosts with Curse Lax. Rock Blast is good for Sub Petaya Deo-A and Ho-Oh.
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 60 HP / 60 Atk / 156 SpD / 232 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Endure
SpDef Endure Hera, lives literally everything.
96+ SpA Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Rain: 263-310 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Surf vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Rain: 232-273 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross: 265-312 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Sun: 256-302 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Groudon Overheat vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Sun: 244-288 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Deoxys-Attack Fire Punch vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Sun: 219-258 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can run the same set with CB:
Heracross @ Choice Band
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 56 HP / 136 Atk / 248 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power [Bug]
Both are absolute menaces in the lead position or as mid game Pokemon, and as such force Psychic moves onto Lati/Mewtwo to deal with them on offense. Shoutout to Xrn for this set btw, entirely his invention.
Quick Claw and Brightpowder are pretty good fits onto random bullshit on HO/Offense, and QC Don/Ogre to snipe Latios is genuine bullshit. Stuff like BrightPowder on Victreebel is probably just optimal, and Quick Claw on Magneton to get those priority Thunder Waves is pretty nice too,
Current thoughts on metagame: Sun offense > everything else, the ability to stifle Thunder, the broken stupid bullshit move which Rain offense cannot without fielding some total unviamons (or Groudon!) is extremely massive. Sun puts the game largely in your hands, whereas Rain can really make games come down to praying. Wobb is a little stupid, but the usage of Wobb makes 182 Speed Blissey all the better and more common, thus making Wobb a bit less reliable. The ability to force Blissey to respect being slowed down to get trapped by Wobb is a very interesting dynamic.
Last but not least, and what the vast majority of you are even reading this post for: teams! Enjoy and use responsibly.
Tauros (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 244 Atk / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Return
- Hyper Beam
You lead it and trade quite well thanks to Intimidate, good enough bulk, and a monstrous move in Hyper Beam.
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 365-430 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 362-427 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 322-379 (106.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 341-402 (112.9 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 365-430 (93.8 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
244+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Hyper Beam vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mew: 334-394 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Even if you don't kill each of these, that is some fantastic chip. It also works as a Lax/Hera/Groudon pivot thanks to Intimidate if you don't just int it turn 1, and when paired with Magneton, it sets up extremely reliable Metagross traps.
Gyarados @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 76 Def / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Flail
- Earthquake
Metagross switch in, Kyogre/Groudon pivot, decent anti-Deo-A properties, and very good at forcing in opposing speed control.
Armaldo @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Rock Blast
- Rest
- Harden
Stall Pokemon, best Snorlax answer in the game bar none. Battle Armor is an amazing ability. Knock is general utility, Harden has the big PP for stalling and keeping up boosts with Curse Lax. Rock Blast is good for Sub Petaya Deo-A and Ho-Oh.
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 60 HP / 60 Atk / 156 SpD / 232 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Endure
SpDef Endure Hera, lives literally everything.
96+ SpA Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Rain: 263-310 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Surf vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Rain: 232-273 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross: 265-312 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Sun: 256-302 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Groudon Overheat vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Sun: 244-288 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Deoxys-Attack Fire Punch vs. 60 HP / 156+ SpD Heracross in Sun: 219-258 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can run the same set with CB:
Heracross @ Choice Band
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 56 HP / 136 Atk / 248 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power [Bug]
Both are absolute menaces in the lead position or as mid game Pokemon, and as such force Psychic moves onto Lati/Mewtwo to deal with them on offense. Shoutout to Xrn for this set btw, entirely his invention.
Quick Claw and Brightpowder are pretty good fits onto random bullshit on HO/Offense, and QC Don/Ogre to snipe Latios is genuine bullshit. Stuff like BrightPowder on Victreebel is probably just optimal, and Quick Claw on Magneton to get those priority Thunder Waves is pretty nice too,
Current thoughts on metagame: Sun offense > everything else, the ability to stifle Thunder, the broken stupid bullshit move which Rain offense cannot without fielding some total unviamons (or Groudon!) is extremely massive. Sun puts the game largely in your hands, whereas Rain can really make games come down to praying. Wobb is a little stupid, but the usage of Wobb makes 182 Speed Blissey all the better and more common, thus making Wobb a bit less reliable. The ability to force Blissey to respect being slowed down to get trapped by Wobb is a very interesting dynamic.
Last but not least, and what the vast majority of you are even reading this post for: teams! Enjoy and use responsibly.
i wanna talk about latios vs latias
latias' benefits over latios are just higher effective bst, latios' boon is higher spA. generally the latter is more important, of course.
further nuances are that latias' bulk is more biased towards its spD relative to latios', and that latias' bulk improves more compared to latios' with hp investment. unsurprisingly this means that offensive sets are better on latios and defensive sets are better on latias. there are some sets in the space between that are ambiguous, however
i'm gonna talk about overall bulk as a factor of defense stat and hp stat, which is *quite* close to accurate but technically is not; hp is *slightly* more important. for ease i am assuming 319 speed rest in spA
we can consider some spreads that take ada deoa sball
1 (Latios)
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 76 SpA / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
319 spe, 315 spA, 364*256=93184 special bulk
2 (Latios)
EVs: 216 Def / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
319 spe, 336 spA, 301*256=77056 special bulk
3 (Latias)
EVs: 192 HP / 64 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
319 spe, 299 spA, 349*296=103304 special bulk
4 (Latias)
EVs: 136 Def / 236 SpA / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
319 spe, 315 spA, 301*296=89096 special bulk
depending on how you prioritize special attack and special bulk, you will use different sets
2 is the most offensive, with 336 spA
1 is in the middle, being 94% as strong as 2 but 121% as specially bulky
3 is the bulkier spread, 95% as strong as 1 and 111% as specially bulky
4 is effectively strictly worse than 1
i tent to prioritize spA heavily on latis so i would run 2
when deciding whether to use latios vs latias, i would propose:
if you're benching to kill with a special attack that needs more than 350 spA use latios
if you're benching to live a special attack use latias
if you're benching to live a physical attack and latios cannot meet the bench and the desired speed at the same time use latias
if you're benching to live a physical attack decide whether to prioritize spD or spA
in the former case run latias and invest in hp before defense; this will be more efficient if the attack is stronger
in the latter case run latios and invest in defense before hp; this will be more efficient if the attack is weaker
point being that latios is potentially more versatile than 252/252/4
edit: something that i should mention is that this disregards the information management aspect of the choice, ie. what running tios telegraphs to opponents relative to what running tias does
latias' benefits over latios are just higher effective bst, latios' boon is higher spA. generally the latter is more important, of course.
further nuances are that latias' bulk is more biased towards its spD relative to latios', and that latias' bulk improves more compared to latios' with hp investment. unsurprisingly this means that offensive sets are better on latios and defensive sets are better on latias. there are some sets in the space between that are ambiguous, however
i'm gonna talk about overall bulk as a factor of defense stat and hp stat, which is *quite* close to accurate but technically is not; hp is *slightly* more important. for ease i am assuming 319 speed rest in spA
we can consider some spreads that take ada deoa sball
1 (Latios)
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 76 SpA / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
319 spe, 315 spA, 364*256=93184 special bulk
2 (Latios)
EVs: 216 Def / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
319 spe, 336 spA, 301*256=77056 special bulk
3 (Latias)
EVs: 192 HP / 64 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
319 spe, 299 spA, 349*296=103304 special bulk
4 (Latias)
EVs: 136 Def / 236 SpA / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
319 spe, 315 spA, 301*296=89096 special bulk
depending on how you prioritize special attack and special bulk, you will use different sets
2 is the most offensive, with 336 spA
1 is in the middle, being 94% as strong as 2 but 121% as specially bulky
3 is the bulkier spread, 95% as strong as 1 and 111% as specially bulky
4 is effectively strictly worse than 1
i tent to prioritize spA heavily on latis so i would run 2
when deciding whether to use latios vs latias, i would propose:
if you're benching to kill with a special attack that needs more than 350 spA use latios
if you're benching to live a special attack use latias
if you're benching to live a physical attack and latios cannot meet the bench and the desired speed at the same time use latias
if you're benching to live a physical attack decide whether to prioritize spD or spA
in the former case run latias and invest in hp before defense; this will be more efficient if the attack is stronger
in the latter case run latios and invest in defense before hp; this will be more efficient if the attack is weaker
point being that latios is potentially more versatile than 252/252/4
edit: something that i should mention is that this disregards the information management aspect of the choice, ie. what running tios telegraphs to opponents relative to what running tias does
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This is a really cool topic! I have some of my own thoughts that i want to toss in.
Before talking about anything worthwhile, I want to nitpick the 3rd spread in your post real quick. It's more EV efficient to run Timid on that Latias assuming the given benchmarks, you end up with 301 Sp. Atk as a result.
Anyways, I want to explain something for folks reading your post who have a limited understanding about building and optimizing EV spreads. In most cases, which includes Latias and Latios, when you invest in Def/Sp. Def instead of HP it will require less total EVs to reach a specific physical/special benchmark. This is why a Latias with spread 4 has a tiny bit more Sp. Atk than a Latias with spread 3. However, investing in HP increases a Pokemon's bulk on both sides of the attack spectrum whereas investment in Def/Sp. Def only improves one. Because of this, it's usually much more efficient to invest as much as you can in a Pokemon's HP stat before putting any in either of the specific defenses. This is why spread 4 Latias ends up being just a weaker version of spread 1 Latios, who is more efficient with his EV spread by maxing HP first.
After understanding this, I think it's also very important to point out that the main role of Lati@s in ADV Ubers is to serve as the team's answer to the kaiju, Kyogre and Groudon. In other words, Def AND Sp. Def are very valuable to the Lati twins since they are frequently switching into Surf and Ice Beam as much as they have to switch into Rock Slide and HP Ghost. Spread 2 Latios may have the most Sp. Atk but I'd argue Spread 1 Latios and Spread 3 Latias are significantly more optimal because neither are effortlessly 2HKO'd by Kyogre Ice Beam like Spread 2 Latios is. The loss in Sp. Atk is relatively minor in comparison.
I don't think you are wrong to prioritize Sp. Atk, however. I just wouldn't do so in this specific case as I'd rather run 252(+) Latios if the priority is damage over defensive benchmarks. I think it does raise the question, though, on when should a player prioritize getting the most out of attack turns vs being able to switch into the kaiju more easily?
A common sequence folks will encounter is:
- A kaiju is in play with a favorable position, so you switch to your Lati in response
- The opponent decides to play conservatively with their kaiju health and retreat it for Snorlax
- You don't want to deal with Body Slam so you send out your Steel-type to minimize the potential damage
- Your Steel-type is a great opportunity for your opponent to send out their kaiju again without risking much damage
The situation then resets to the first turn but both players likely have lost resources and may or may not be incentivized to take more risks/attempt a read.
For simplicity's sake, let's assume the kaiju is Kyogre, the Steel-type is Metagross, and the Snorlax doesn't have EQ. This means that their Snorlax isn't going to be making much progress vs your Metagross without going for a +1 boom trade. At the same time, your Metagross isn't going to do much more than tickle their Kyogre unless you click Explosion, which you don't want to do because you need your Metagross still to Pursuit trap their Deoxys. This leaves a race between your Lati@s chipping away at their Kyogre and their Kyogre trying to break your Lati@s.
Here are the calcs for analysis Latios and Latias vs analysis Snorlax:
252+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 146-172 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
116 SpA Soul Dew Latias Thunder vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 105-124 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, if you have a Latios, Snorlax can only safely switch in roughly 2 or 3 times without clicking Rest. On the other hand, Snorlax easily has 6+ safe switches vs Latias due to her tiny damage and Leftovers healing. This difference is obviously significant. If Latios can switch in on a Surf click at least once or twice, then its damage output against Snorlax more or less keeps up with how quickly Kyogre is breaking Latios. Meanwhile, Latias is basically making no progress at all and avoiding a Kyogre Ice Beam 2HKO doesn't do her much good when Thunder Wave and Calm Mind are potential factors.
This is obviously a cherry-picked and oversimplified scenario but I think it still effectively illustrates how damage output can have significantly more value than defensive benchmarks. No matter how fat your Lati@s is, switching into a kaiju repeatedly is eventually a lost battle. With Latias, unlike Latios, there's basically no value in making a double switch on the turn they send out their Kyogre vs your Metagross since your progress vs Snorlax is so slow.
All this changes, however, if you assume a Skarmory or Forretress as the Steel-type instead of Metagross. With Spikes in the equation, you are very much ahead of their kaiju in the damage race and the offensive difference between Latias and Latios becomes much less pronounced. Snorlax can only safely switch into Latias Thunder around 2 to 3 times with a Spike in play and only once vs Latios Thunder under the same conditions. The passive progress from a Spike and the implicit threat of additional Spike layers from every Body Slam click allows the Lati@s the luxury to spend its free turns clicking Recover as the kaiju retreats. This gives a lot of value to the defensive strength that Latias and fat Latios have.
tl;dr: I think if you aren't using Spikes then you should always be using a Latios with an offensive spread. If your team does have Spikes then any sort of Lati@s is viable, just make sure it has Thunder if you aren't using Blissey.
CB Sp. Def Hera lead is something Fireburn showed me ages ago and I feel like there's real potential in it. My biggest issue with using it so far, though, has been the fact that losing Guts really hurts your Gengar mu. It can be compensated for with teammates but that's still a building limitation regular CB Heracross doesn't have. The reduced attack investment is also kinda annoying vs Lugia structures and the slower speed stat can bite vs some balance builds. All that said, I feel like the set basically destroys whatever sliver of viability Pokemon like Slaking used to have. (beyond for shits and giggles ofc)
EDIT:
Noteworthy Speed EVs benchmarks:
- 204/96+: Outruns Jolly Groudon and Timid Kyogre. Any spread that is slower than this is simply greedy. (307/308 Speed Stat)
- 140+: Creeps all Lati@s without a Timid nature. (320)
- 176+: Somewhat niche but outrunning Mew can be very valuable when you do encounter it. (330)
- 252+: Speed ties with other max speed Lati@s, Gengar, and CB Lugia. (350)
Noteworthy Defense EVs benchmarks for Latias (Latios) in HP/Def:
- 64/0 (192/0): Always survives Jolly Spell Deo-A Shadow Ball at max HP.
- 192/0 (252/44): Always survives Adamant Spell Deo-A SBall at max HP.
- 252/16 (252/96): Survives +2 HP Ghost from 0 Atk Sp. Def Groudon.
- 252/32 (252/112): 0 Atk Ho-Oh SBall never 2HKOs.
- 252/56 (252/136): +0 252+ Groudon Rock Slide never 3HKOs.
- 252/116 (252/196): Adamant CB Rayquaza Espeed never 2HKOs.
- 252/164 (252/244): Survives Jolly CB Deo-A SBall.
- 252/180 (252/168+): Survives +2 HP Ghost from Jolly Salac Groudon.
- 252/168+ (252/248+): Survives Adamant CB Deo-A Sball.
Noteworthy Special Defense EVs benchmarks for Latias (Latios) in HP/Sp. Def:
- 0/0 (72/0): +1 252+ SubPetaya Deoxys-A Ice Beam never OHKOs.
- 0/0 (160/0): 84+ SubCM Mewtwo Ice Beam never 2HKOs.
- 80/0 (252/24): 252+ Kyogre Ice Beam never 2HKOs.
- 112/0 (252/48): 252+ Mewtwo Ice Beam never 2HKOs.
- 252/24 (252/184): +0 252+ SubPetaya Deoxys-A Ice Beam never 2HKOs. Although Latios can technically reach this defensive benchmark, a spread that does so isn't remotely viable.
- 252/104 (252/148+): Timid Latios Ice Beam never 2HKOs. Noteworthy for Latias because she can still afford to creep Modest Latios. This benchmark isn't viable for Latios.
- 252/252+ (N/A): +1 252+ Kyogre Ice Beam never 2HKOs. This is not a practical spread but it's a funny calc to see.
Noteworthy Special Attack EVs benchmarks for Latias (Latios):
- 24 (0): 2HKOs 252/0 Kyogre with Thunder. (262 Sp. Atk)
- 80 (0): 3HKOs +1 252/0 Kyogre with Thunder. (276)
- 252/136+ (92): 2HKOs 252/252+ Groudon with Ice Beam. (319)
- N/A (244+): 2HKOs +1 252/0 Kyogre with Thunder. (392)
It's important to note that what isn't shown in the Sp. Atk benchmarks above is the impact a marginal increase in Sp. Atk has on the odds of rolling high enough to meet key KO thresholds.
For those interested in over-simplified conclusions to decide which Lati twin to use:
- If you want fast and strong; use Latios.
- If you want fast and bulky; use Latias.
- If you only want enough bulk to meet a specific phys def benchmark but only minimum speed; both are roughly equal but Latios has better damage rolls vs the kaiju while Latias just has extra special bulk that is usually very niche.
- If you only want enough bulk to meet a specific sp. def benchmark at any speed; Latias ends up being more optimal.
- 204/96+: Outruns Jolly Groudon and Timid Kyogre. Any spread that is slower than this is simply greedy. (307/308 Speed Stat)
- 140+: Creeps all Lati@s without a Timid nature. (320)
- 176+: Somewhat niche but outrunning Mew can be very valuable when you do encounter it. (330)
- 252+: Speed ties with other max speed Lati@s, Gengar, and CB Lugia. (350)
Noteworthy Defense EVs benchmarks for Latias (Latios) in HP/Def:
- 64/0 (192/0): Always survives Jolly Spell Deo-A Shadow Ball at max HP.
- 192/0 (252/44): Always survives Adamant Spell Deo-A SBall at max HP.
- 252/16 (252/96): Survives +2 HP Ghost from 0 Atk Sp. Def Groudon.
- 252/32 (252/112): 0 Atk Ho-Oh SBall never 2HKOs.
- 252/56 (252/136): +0 252+ Groudon Rock Slide never 3HKOs.
- 252/116 (252/196): Adamant CB Rayquaza Espeed never 2HKOs.
- 252/164 (252/244): Survives Jolly CB Deo-A SBall.
- 252/180 (252/168+): Survives +2 HP Ghost from Jolly Salac Groudon.
- 252/168+ (252/248+): Survives Adamant CB Deo-A Sball.
Noteworthy Special Defense EVs benchmarks for Latias (Latios) in HP/Sp. Def:
- 0/0 (72/0): +1 252+ SubPetaya Deoxys-A Ice Beam never OHKOs.
- 0/0 (160/0): 84+ SubCM Mewtwo Ice Beam never 2HKOs.
- 80/0 (252/24): 252+ Kyogre Ice Beam never 2HKOs.
- 112/0 (252/48): 252+ Mewtwo Ice Beam never 2HKOs.
- 252/24 (252/184): +0 252+ SubPetaya Deoxys-A Ice Beam never 2HKOs. Although Latios can technically reach this defensive benchmark, a spread that does so isn't remotely viable.
- 252/104 (252/148+): Timid Latios Ice Beam never 2HKOs. Noteworthy for Latias because she can still afford to creep Modest Latios. This benchmark isn't viable for Latios.
- 252/252+ (N/A): +1 252+ Kyogre Ice Beam never 2HKOs. This is not a practical spread but it's a funny calc to see.
Noteworthy Special Attack EVs benchmarks for Latias (Latios):
- 24 (0): 2HKOs 252/0 Kyogre with Thunder. (262 Sp. Atk)
- 80 (0): 3HKOs +1 252/0 Kyogre with Thunder. (276)
- 252/136+ (92): 2HKOs 252/252+ Groudon with Ice Beam. (319)
- N/A (244+): 2HKOs +1 252/0 Kyogre with Thunder. (392)
It's important to note that what isn't shown in the Sp. Atk benchmarks above is the impact a marginal increase in Sp. Atk has on the odds of rolling high enough to meet key KO thresholds.
For those interested in over-simplified conclusions to decide which Lati twin to use:
- If you want fast and strong; use Latios.
- If you want fast and bulky; use Latias.
- If you only want enough bulk to meet a specific phys def benchmark but only minimum speed; both are roughly equal but Latios has better damage rolls vs the kaiju while Latias just has extra special bulk that is usually very niche.
- If you only want enough bulk to meet a specific sp. def benchmark at any speed; Latias ends up being more optimal.
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Why teach Kyogre rain dance if he has Drizzle? And why Surf if he has Water Spout. And you didn't teach Thunder to your Kyogre?
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Rain Dance
- Surf
A concept I stole from ADV OU Suicune, a lot of bulkier teams rely on Groudon resetting the weather vs Sub CM Kyogre, and this totally puts a stop to that. Dropping Ice Beam blows, but such is life.
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
- Surf
Water Spout at +1 reliably 2HKOes Blissey, and it's a fantastic way to force Latios to click Recover while hitting everything else with an incredibly strong water move, allowing you to get free entry to your Snorlax.
Nothing of that!
Results from the survey are out! Thanks to everyone who participated. We got 29 replies which is a decent number consider the tier is pretty niche! I won't bore you with any more useless hoo-hah, straight into the results we go.
More than half of the voters believe the tier is fine as is and would not like to see any changes in regards to Wobbuffet or Shadow Tag.
There's also the opinion of those who played ADV Ubers in recent tournaments which shows pretty similar results:
While tournament players definitely lean towards Shadow Tag being more problematic, a supermajority is not reached to move onto a suspect of any sorts. As such, the tier will remain as is. Have a good rest of your week and please do not queue into me with Cloyster on the ADV Ubers ladder and freeze my Kyogre with Ice Beam, thank you.
There's also the opinion of those who played ADV Ubers in recent tournaments which shows pretty similar results:
While tournament players definitely lean towards Shadow Tag being more problematic, a supermajority is not reached to move onto a suspect of any sorts. As such, the tier will remain as is. Have a good rest of your week and please do not queue into me with Cloyster on the ADV Ubers ladder and freeze my Kyogre with Ice Beam, thank you.
don't ban bp ban raph
thanks for the thoughts mmii
that spread mistake was dumb, i coulda sworn i double-checked the spreads' efficiencies too...
i think there's an element of subjectivity with respect to the prioritization of special attack versus defenses on latis. my conception of the function of special attack on latis is not so much for extra damage on lax as extra damage on ogredon themselves. i generally consider ogredon not too difficult to make progress on, because of spikes weak / few resists / no recovery - even vs physdef ogre you're doing ~20 with gross mash less lefties, which is not nothing vs a key piece of most teams with no recovery. however, they are both sufficiently powerful to be able to power through latis to some degree with a bit of chip or a fullpara or whatever. thus, i like special attack on latis primarily to trade better with ogredon, ie. if your lati is in a position where it has on click vs ogredon before falling it gets more damage out of that click. since ogredon are relatively slow, usually a strong ice beam or thunder should be enough for the rest of your team to revenge it. nevertheless your points make absolute sense, perhaps one might say that a team needs ways to progress in the context of common lines, which in this case means that either your steel needs some sort of effective click vs ogredon (spikes, strong mash, tox, even boom) or your lati needs an effective click vs lax (usually strong attack or spikes).
with respect to the efficiency of the spreads' division of evs in defenses vs hp, i didn't really spell out my reasoning there. part of the reason i suggest hp for tias and def for tios is that with the stat spreads of each hp is slightly more efficient tias than it is for tios, though it remains more efficient overall for the latter. the big advantage tias has over tios is its special bulk which means that investing in def rather than hp is an unoptimal use of the pokemon (because it sacrifices a bunch of special bulk for a bit of special attack and if you're willing ot do that you should be using latios anyways). however, to my mind special attack is important enough that sacrificing special bulk for a bit of special attack is worthwhile.
this is all a long post just to say that i agree with your conclusions, mostly; to me use tios for strength, tias for special bulk or mixed bulk, but tios for phys bulk
nb that for those reading mm2 is better than i am and you should listen to them when we disagree
thanks for the thoughts mmii
that spread mistake was dumb, i coulda sworn i double-checked the spreads' efficiencies too...
i think there's an element of subjectivity with respect to the prioritization of special attack versus defenses on latis. my conception of the function of special attack on latis is not so much for extra damage on lax as extra damage on ogredon themselves. i generally consider ogredon not too difficult to make progress on, because of spikes weak / few resists / no recovery - even vs physdef ogre you're doing ~20 with gross mash less lefties, which is not nothing vs a key piece of most teams with no recovery. however, they are both sufficiently powerful to be able to power through latis to some degree with a bit of chip or a fullpara or whatever. thus, i like special attack on latis primarily to trade better with ogredon, ie. if your lati is in a position where it has on click vs ogredon before falling it gets more damage out of that click. since ogredon are relatively slow, usually a strong ice beam or thunder should be enough for the rest of your team to revenge it. nevertheless your points make absolute sense, perhaps one might say that a team needs ways to progress in the context of common lines, which in this case means that either your steel needs some sort of effective click vs ogredon (spikes, strong mash, tox, even boom) or your lati needs an effective click vs lax (usually strong attack or spikes).
with respect to the efficiency of the spreads' division of evs in defenses vs hp, i didn't really spell out my reasoning there. part of the reason i suggest hp for tias and def for tios is that with the stat spreads of each hp is slightly more efficient tias than it is for tios, though it remains more efficient overall for the latter. the big advantage tias has over tios is its special bulk which means that investing in def rather than hp is an unoptimal use of the pokemon (because it sacrifices a bunch of special bulk for a bit of special attack and if you're willing ot do that you should be using latios anyways). however, to my mind special attack is important enough that sacrificing special bulk for a bit of special attack is worthwhile.
this is all a long post just to say that i agree with your conclusions, mostly; to me use tios for strength, tias for special bulk or mixed bulk, but tios for phys bulk
nb that for those reading mm2 is better than i am and you should listen to them when we disagree
Somewhat topical but mitana asked a bunch of folks, including me, to post our thoughts on bp in this meta. As it turns out, I've got a few strats/exploits/techs that I've been meaning to showcase but, for one reason or another, simply haven't gotten around to doing so yet. So I'm going to use this opportunity to talk about them here. (trivial disclaimer but I'm not making any pretension to have invented any of the following)
Umbreon @ Leftovers
- Mean Look
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Protect / Moonlight / Wish / Sand Attack
This pokemon is pretty well known by now thanks to an old minority rmt (Dark Dreamer Hyper Offense) that is (somewhat) frequently piloted by 64 squares featuring updates from hyw. (Bonus) It's pretty straight-forward, you abuse Umbreon's bulk to trappass for a confirmed kill and/or freebie setup sweep. The first three moves are core; Mean Look for trapping, Baton Pass to share it, and Taunt to shut down phazing attempts. The last move is mostly filler and can be a lot of things. I'd argue Protect is best for the extra lefties recovery and since it's effective against 2 typical formes of counterplay against Umbreon: Boom and CB Hera/Deoxys-A. Moonlight is really good recovery with Sun support, though, and Wish works even under Rain + can be passed to a teammate albeit being slower/less efficient. Sand Attack is not commonly seen at all but it has potential for haxing past other formes of counterplay as well as making it easier to pull off a setup sweep after trappassing. Curse, Pursuit, Body Slam, Confuse Ray, Charm, Psych Up, and Sunny Day also have some noteworthy niches.
This set is particularly effective against slower, fatter teams with Pokemon that Umbreon can effortlessly setup on (multiple times!) and usually rely on phazing to deal with the assorted BP shenanigans (which Taunt shuts down!). The archetype is plenty viable against all teams, however, as Umbreon is fat enough to find a trap somewhere regardless of the MU and it only takes one for it to have strong value. Absolute worst case scenario: Umbreon abuses it's bulk and slow pass to serve as a pivot and boom sponge.
The best (conventional) counterplay against this set is faster Taunt like Gengar, invested Skarmory, and Deo-D (there's also some Mewtwo, Deo-S, and Aerodactyl as other rare options). You can also throw booms at it or use CB Deoxys-A to threaten a OHKO but these have Protect to deal with and Deoxys-A, especially, has to be wary of switching in on a Baton Pass click since it's an easy Metagross trap. (and some Metagross variants don't even need the BP read, they can simply hard into a Deo-A) Heracross is usually very effective since it doesn't have to be Choice-locked to threaten a KO and because the currently most popular Umbreon team has zero Bug-type resists to deal with Megahorn, anyways.
Smeargle @ Salac Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Spider Web / Mean Look / Block
- Substitute / Endure
- Baton Pass
Another trappass abuser! Smeargle's niche is in the relatively fast speed creeping Pokemon like Metagross, Snorlax, Blissey, and most Kyogre/Groudon as well as the ability to abuse Spore to force trappass setup. This is Pokemon is very easy to play as all you have to do is bring it in safely vs something slower, click Spore (or Substitute if you think they'll try to save their key defensive option from being the sleep fodder), and then Substitute as they switch out their sleeping Pokemon. If they bring in a faster attacker then you spam Substitute until Salac procs, click the trapping move as they pop your final Sub, then pass the trap to an appropriate abuser. If they bring in something slower, you can just trap directly then decide if you want to save smeargle health or keeping Sub spamming for the Salac proc before passing. Endure is an option over Substitute if you want to be able to guessie a setup with your Smeargle in front of something faster like a Lati@s at the price of losing the easy, risk-free, flowchart plays that you get from Substitute. HP EVs that give you a stat that is perfectly divisible by 4 is an option so that you can proc Salac safely vs the rare sand mu and/or have enough health to switch into a Spike later in the game after a pass (if they ever sack this initial sleep fodder).
This set isn't quite as good as Umbreon at fighting Stall teams since it doesn't have bulk + Taunt to abuse against their phazers. In exchange, though, you get (generallyish) easier and more consistent trap pass setups vs the more offensive archetypes since virtually every team in this meta has at least 1 or 2 Pokemon that are slower than Smeargle (Metagross, Snorlax, Kaiju). Another very important advantage is the fact that Smeargle gets to Sleep a Pokemon. So even if your opponent has the exact tools to counter your trappass setup, you still get an effective one for one value trade thanks to the Spore click. I do want to clarify that this set is by no means weak in the Stall mu. Things might not be as easy as with Umbreon but Smeargle can still force the trappass with a bit of finesse. If Smeargle manages to double into Blissey or similarly passive Pokemon, it can click Mean Look instead of Spore first since it's very rare for Stall teams to have a phazer that is faster and can also OHKO the Smeargle. Alternatively, if there is only one phazer on the Stall team, Smeargle can double into it and threaten a Spore vs Mean Look 50/50 (the risk-reward HEAVILY favors the Smeargle player).
The counterplay to this method of trappassing is to sack a Pokemon to Spore and then bring in a phazer, faster Taunt, or a Pokemon that is fast enough to attack first after the Salac proc (Espeed, Swift Swim, Chloro). The list of Taunt counters are similar to the Umbreon one, however, it is worth noting that Skarmory is slower (but that doesn't matter since it has phazing) and the vast majority of Taunt Deoxys-D are slower and can't really do anything to a Smeargle behind Substitute. Deoxys-A can technically deny the trappass setup thanks to Espeed but it's still not a good option against this set since it has to switch into a Substitute after sacking a Pokemon to sleep, which means the Smeargle gets to freely bp into Metagross for a Pursuit trap. Even CB Rayquaza and Kabutops are vulnerable to a potential Wobbuffet trap when they attempt to deny the trappass setup. Aromatherapy / Heal Bell can't deal with the trappass but it is still valuable for clearing sleep once the Smeargle is fainted. You can also deny a trappass by using boom but that's still a desperate 2 for 1 trade in the best case scenario.
Smeargle @ Salac Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Drumpass Smeargle flowcharts very similarly to the trappass variant but the reward for success is WAY more explosive and damning. Here's a fun replay from this year's UPL showing the set in action, although 0kay made a very fatal misplay vs it (likely assuming the set to be a Spikes variant). Anyways, the flowchart is very simple: you Spore vs something slower, click Substitute on the (assumed) switch, then finish with Belly Drum into bp sweep assuming they don't reveal any appropriate counterplay. Just about everything in terms of counterplay and mus is similar to the trappass Smeargle set aside from some more situational differences. For example, you can't force setup on a passive Pokemon if it can at least deal 50% to Smeargle. I do want to make special note, however, that this set becomes incredibly more powerful and consistent with Wobbuffet support. If Wobbuffet ever clicks Encore on a non damaging attack, then Smeargle gets to come in and click Substitute for free. This allows it to hold Spore for the (very likely) only Pokemon that could deny the Drumpass sequence. Avoiding the Wobbuffet Encore lock in the first place isn't really viable counterplay to this duo. Seeing Wobbuffet does not mean that there is a Smeargle. Trading your Pokemon for Wobbuffet health to deny the Encore lock into a passive move is far more likely to be the suboptimal play when there isn't any BP partners on the Wobbuffet's team. Additionally, your Pokemon may simply be slower than Wobbuffet and had already clicked a non-damaging move on the turn that Wobbuffet switched in. These sort of things are not possible to accurately anticipate, there is no prior tells. It's also worth remembering that, even in the worst case scenario, the Smeargle player still gets the effective 1 for 1 value from clicking Spore. Even if you do have cleric support, those sort of mus are perfect for Wobbuffet to force drumpass setups.
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Protect
- Baton Pass
It might seem a bit strange to be mentioning drypass in this post but Baton Pass excerbates aspects of Shedinja that already made it a naturally mu fish and flowchart prone Pokemon. Shedinja is a wall that you can't chip away at to force predictable and exploitable recovery turns. Protect helps scout whatever CB mon you might want to double into it or whatever surprise coverage option that you try to catch it with. With Baton Pass and max speed investment, you avoid Metagross Pursuit unless they invest heavily into speed to creep it. It's important to note that Metagross has no other meta relevant reason to do so and the cost in bulk is substantial to the role(s) it is typically intended to serve. Baton Pass also allows Shedinja to pivot safely against faster Pokemon that can't touch it as well as making double switch finessing really difficult against it. As a result, simply putting Shedinja on your team allows you to virtually auto-win against most variants of rain offense. This is a very significant portion of the metagame and that allows Shedinja teams to specialize the remaining slots on the team for the other mus in the game. Sand is rare in ADV Ubers and few teams have the tools to maintain Spikes against Starmie's Rapid Spin. If your team is not part of that minority then the core of its offense must be capable of breaking stall teams in a way that also completely avoids Shedinja's immunities.
If it wasn't already obvious, I'd very much like the community to consider suspect testing Baton Pass once again. Allowing teams to rely on Metagross Pursuit without having to sacrifice its effectiveness in the mus that aren't incredibly rare is one of the main reasons that I would not be in favor of a complex ban that allows for drypass to remain in this format.
Here's a Shedinja team that I'm quite confident in. (you'll have to fill in your own EVs) I decided to go with a Stall approach but Shedinja can easily be featured on more offensive archetypes. Since the counterplay to Shedinja is typically unconventional, you can choose to lean in more on its mu fish abilities if you so choose. For example, you can run a spinner like Forretress or Kabutops that isn't as reliable as Starmie but is usually sufficient in most mus and have the benefits of being powerful/useful beyond Rapid Spin. You can also use Shedinja as your sole boltbeam check, this opens you up to things like Fire Blast Mewtwo or HP Fire Latios but neither are particularly common and it should still be possible to finesse around them with your remaining 5 Pokemon.
Ninjask @ Leftovers
- Sand Attack
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass
Ninjask has seen a fair bit of use recently, a lot of which comes from Heysup and folks piloting assorted variants of his teams. Swords Dance or SubLiechi with HP Bug / Silver Wind are the two variants that you typically see. I want to draw attention to Sand Attack, though, as an option for haxing potential counterplay. It was featured on the full pass bp team that resulted in the initial bp suspect test but I think it still has viability in spite of the new(ish) complex ban. Ninjask is immune to Spikes and phazing doesn't actually kill it, it just denies the speed pass in the short term. This means that Ninjask can have a lot of opportunities to fish for hax it needs against phazers. Skarmory has Keen Eye but Skarmory is very far from an omnipresent mu and it's vulnerable to Magneton if you really hate it, anyways.
Beyond Sand Attack, what I really want to emphasize is how low the skill floor is for piloting Ninjask and how limited the appropriate counterplay to it is. Ninjask is naturally faster than virtually the entire metagame, all you have to do once it is in play safely is alternate between Substitute and Protect until you have enough Speed Boost procs to pass to one of your sweepers. Furthermore, the risk-reward is so skewed in Ninjask's favor that the opponent has to play predictably with their counterplay while the Ninjask player can easily afford to make the reads it wants. An extra Substitute to try and cover a stat boost or Pokemon switch only costs the Ninjask a tiny portion of its health, while allowing a Ninjask to setup a Sub safely may outright cost you the game. The only reliable way to say No to a Ninjask speedpass is to have a phazer. However, you have to switch immediately (and predictably) into the phazer once Ninjask is in play and you must always immediately click Roar / Whirlwind with it. Those are two turns that Ninjask can go miss fishing with Sand Attack, chip at your phazer with HP Bug / Silver Wind, or just drypass scout your switch for momentum. A lot of teams in ADV Ubers don't even have a phazer and those are the mus that Ninjask is especially effective at preying on.
Of course, a succesful speedpass doesn't necessarily mean that you automatically lose the game. A lot of Pokemon sets become far more difficult to check when they do have increased speed and stopping them may cost you more resources than your team is designed for. Since Ninjask is so effective in its mu fish against offensive teams that lack a phazer, you can afford to hedge more heavily against fatter archetypes with your remaining 5. This is especially effective since fat, strong breakers are exactly the sort of Pokemon Ninjask wants to be speedpassing to, anyways. Ninjask also has a degree of role compression in its kit since Protect + Speed Boost allows you to revenge kill Salac sweepers or SubPet Deo-A either with Ninjask itself or by passing the speed to another Pokemon in order to do so.
There's some other niche Baton Pass abusers that I want to briefly mention. Zapdos can do speedpassing with Roar as counterplay to phazers. However, it sucks since it's not as reliable as Ninjask, nor does it have its role compression, and it's pretty easily countered by immediately switching to Lati@s. Maybe some Apicot Berry set could work but I reckon you'd get more out of just abusing a good Ninjask team. There's Endeavor Swellow who is a bit more viable in ADV Ubers since Tyranitar is so rare and even Groudon sometimes lacks the coverage to deny free setup. SubPetaya Gorebyss kinda plays like an Omastar except you get to pass a Sp. Atk boost to your Latios vs the Kyogre counter. Celebi can kinda do stuff but it's not very good since it doesn't check a whole lot and Ice Beam Lati@s are very common. Jolteon might be able to do something cheesey with Agility and/or a pinch berry thanks to Roar, strong STAB Thunder, and the ability to setup (once) in front of Lati@s.
As I said before, I was working on optimizing a lot of these strats but never got around to using them. The main reason for me failing to do so is because I found playing and testing Baton Pass teams to be incredibly dull. In my eyes, there are a lot of interesting concepts and strategies that can be explored in this metagame and it felt wasteful to me to spend my time simply cheesing my opponents just to prove a point that has already be proven time and time again.
My main issues with Baton Pass is its flowchart gameplay and tendency to emphasize team matchup as the most decisive factor in the games that it appears in. I'd argue the power level is beyond the commonly acceptable threshold as well but this point remains secondary to me. Hopefully the other folks that mitana reached out to share their thoughts on the subject, whatever they may be.
Umbreon @ Leftovers
- Mean Look
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Protect / Moonlight / Wish / Sand Attack
This pokemon is pretty well known by now thanks to an old minority rmt (Dark Dreamer Hyper Offense) that is (somewhat) frequently piloted by 64 squares featuring updates from hyw. (Bonus) It's pretty straight-forward, you abuse Umbreon's bulk to trappass for a confirmed kill and/or freebie setup sweep. The first three moves are core; Mean Look for trapping, Baton Pass to share it, and Taunt to shut down phazing attempts. The last move is mostly filler and can be a lot of things. I'd argue Protect is best for the extra lefties recovery and since it's effective against 2 typical formes of counterplay against Umbreon: Boom and CB Hera/Deoxys-A. Moonlight is really good recovery with Sun support, though, and Wish works even under Rain + can be passed to a teammate albeit being slower/less efficient. Sand Attack is not commonly seen at all but it has potential for haxing past other formes of counterplay as well as making it easier to pull off a setup sweep after trappassing. Curse, Pursuit, Body Slam, Confuse Ray, Charm, Psych Up, and Sunny Day also have some noteworthy niches.
This set is particularly effective against slower, fatter teams with Pokemon that Umbreon can effortlessly setup on (multiple times!) and usually rely on phazing to deal with the assorted BP shenanigans (which Taunt shuts down!). The archetype is plenty viable against all teams, however, as Umbreon is fat enough to find a trap somewhere regardless of the MU and it only takes one for it to have strong value. Absolute worst case scenario: Umbreon abuses it's bulk and slow pass to serve as a pivot and boom sponge.
The best (conventional) counterplay against this set is faster Taunt like Gengar, invested Skarmory, and Deo-D (there's also some Mewtwo, Deo-S, and Aerodactyl as other rare options). You can also throw booms at it or use CB Deoxys-A to threaten a OHKO but these have Protect to deal with and Deoxys-A, especially, has to be wary of switching in on a Baton Pass click since it's an easy Metagross trap. (and some Metagross variants don't even need the BP read, they can simply hard into a Deo-A) Heracross is usually very effective since it doesn't have to be Choice-locked to threaten a KO and because the currently most popular Umbreon team has zero Bug-type resists to deal with Megahorn, anyways.
Smeargle @ Salac Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Spider Web / Mean Look / Block
- Substitute / Endure
- Baton Pass
Another trappass abuser! Smeargle's niche is in the relatively fast speed creeping Pokemon like Metagross, Snorlax, Blissey, and most Kyogre/Groudon as well as the ability to abuse Spore to force trappass setup. This is Pokemon is very easy to play as all you have to do is bring it in safely vs something slower, click Spore (or Substitute if you think they'll try to save their key defensive option from being the sleep fodder), and then Substitute as they switch out their sleeping Pokemon. If they bring in a faster attacker then you spam Substitute until Salac procs, click the trapping move as they pop your final Sub, then pass the trap to an appropriate abuser. If they bring in something slower, you can just trap directly then decide if you want to save smeargle health or keeping Sub spamming for the Salac proc before passing. Endure is an option over Substitute if you want to be able to guessie a setup with your Smeargle in front of something faster like a Lati@s at the price of losing the easy, risk-free, flowchart plays that you get from Substitute. HP EVs that give you a stat that is perfectly divisible by 4 is an option so that you can proc Salac safely vs the rare sand mu and/or have enough health to switch into a Spike later in the game after a pass (if they ever sack this initial sleep fodder).
This set isn't quite as good as Umbreon at fighting Stall teams since it doesn't have bulk + Taunt to abuse against their phazers. In exchange, though, you get (generallyish) easier and more consistent trap pass setups vs the more offensive archetypes since virtually every team in this meta has at least 1 or 2 Pokemon that are slower than Smeargle (Metagross, Snorlax, Kaiju). Another very important advantage is the fact that Smeargle gets to Sleep a Pokemon. So even if your opponent has the exact tools to counter your trappass setup, you still get an effective one for one value trade thanks to the Spore click. I do want to clarify that this set is by no means weak in the Stall mu. Things might not be as easy as with Umbreon but Smeargle can still force the trappass with a bit of finesse. If Smeargle manages to double into Blissey or similarly passive Pokemon, it can click Mean Look instead of Spore first since it's very rare for Stall teams to have a phazer that is faster and can also OHKO the Smeargle. Alternatively, if there is only one phazer on the Stall team, Smeargle can double into it and threaten a Spore vs Mean Look 50/50 (the risk-reward HEAVILY favors the Smeargle player).
The counterplay to this method of trappassing is to sack a Pokemon to Spore and then bring in a phazer, faster Taunt, or a Pokemon that is fast enough to attack first after the Salac proc (Espeed, Swift Swim, Chloro). The list of Taunt counters are similar to the Umbreon one, however, it is worth noting that Skarmory is slower (but that doesn't matter since it has phazing) and the vast majority of Taunt Deoxys-D are slower and can't really do anything to a Smeargle behind Substitute. Deoxys-A can technically deny the trappass setup thanks to Espeed but it's still not a good option against this set since it has to switch into a Substitute after sacking a Pokemon to sleep, which means the Smeargle gets to freely bp into Metagross for a Pursuit trap. Even CB Rayquaza and Kabutops are vulnerable to a potential Wobbuffet trap when they attempt to deny the trappass setup. Aromatherapy / Heal Bell can't deal with the trappass but it is still valuable for clearing sleep once the Smeargle is fainted. You can also deny a trappass by using boom but that's still a desperate 2 for 1 trade in the best case scenario.
Smeargle @ Salac Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Drumpass Smeargle flowcharts very similarly to the trappass variant but the reward for success is WAY more explosive and damning. Here's a fun replay from this year's UPL showing the set in action, although 0kay made a very fatal misplay vs it (likely assuming the set to be a Spikes variant). Anyways, the flowchart is very simple: you Spore vs something slower, click Substitute on the (assumed) switch, then finish with Belly Drum into bp sweep assuming they don't reveal any appropriate counterplay. Just about everything in terms of counterplay and mus is similar to the trappass Smeargle set aside from some more situational differences. For example, you can't force setup on a passive Pokemon if it can at least deal 50% to Smeargle. I do want to make special note, however, that this set becomes incredibly more powerful and consistent with Wobbuffet support. If Wobbuffet ever clicks Encore on a non damaging attack, then Smeargle gets to come in and click Substitute for free. This allows it to hold Spore for the (very likely) only Pokemon that could deny the Drumpass sequence. Avoiding the Wobbuffet Encore lock in the first place isn't really viable counterplay to this duo. Seeing Wobbuffet does not mean that there is a Smeargle. Trading your Pokemon for Wobbuffet health to deny the Encore lock into a passive move is far more likely to be the suboptimal play when there isn't any BP partners on the Wobbuffet's team. Additionally, your Pokemon may simply be slower than Wobbuffet and had already clicked a non-damaging move on the turn that Wobbuffet switched in. These sort of things are not possible to accurately anticipate, there is no prior tells. It's also worth remembering that, even in the worst case scenario, the Smeargle player still gets the effective 1 for 1 value from clicking Spore. Even if you do have cleric support, those sort of mus are perfect for Wobbuffet to force drumpass setups.
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Protect
- Baton Pass
It might seem a bit strange to be mentioning drypass in this post but Baton Pass excerbates aspects of Shedinja that already made it a naturally mu fish and flowchart prone Pokemon. Shedinja is a wall that you can't chip away at to force predictable and exploitable recovery turns. Protect helps scout whatever CB mon you might want to double into it or whatever surprise coverage option that you try to catch it with. With Baton Pass and max speed investment, you avoid Metagross Pursuit unless they invest heavily into speed to creep it. It's important to note that Metagross has no other meta relevant reason to do so and the cost in bulk is substantial to the role(s) it is typically intended to serve. Baton Pass also allows Shedinja to pivot safely against faster Pokemon that can't touch it as well as making double switch finessing really difficult against it. As a result, simply putting Shedinja on your team allows you to virtually auto-win against most variants of rain offense. This is a very significant portion of the metagame and that allows Shedinja teams to specialize the remaining slots on the team for the other mus in the game. Sand is rare in ADV Ubers and few teams have the tools to maintain Spikes against Starmie's Rapid Spin. If your team is not part of that minority then the core of its offense must be capable of breaking stall teams in a way that also completely avoids Shedinja's immunities.
If it wasn't already obvious, I'd very much like the community to consider suspect testing Baton Pass once again. Allowing teams to rely on Metagross Pursuit without having to sacrifice its effectiveness in the mus that aren't incredibly rare is one of the main reasons that I would not be in favor of a complex ban that allows for drypass to remain in this format.
Here's a Shedinja team that I'm quite confident in. (you'll have to fill in your own EVs) I decided to go with a Stall approach but Shedinja can easily be featured on more offensive archetypes. Since the counterplay to Shedinja is typically unconventional, you can choose to lean in more on its mu fish abilities if you so choose. For example, you can run a spinner like Forretress or Kabutops that isn't as reliable as Starmie but is usually sufficient in most mus and have the benefits of being powerful/useful beyond Rapid Spin. You can also use Shedinja as your sole boltbeam check, this opens you up to things like Fire Blast Mewtwo or HP Fire Latios but neither are particularly common and it should still be possible to finesse around them with your remaining 5 Pokemon.
Ninjask @ Leftovers
- Sand Attack
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass
Ninjask has seen a fair bit of use recently, a lot of which comes from Heysup and folks piloting assorted variants of his teams. Swords Dance or SubLiechi with HP Bug / Silver Wind are the two variants that you typically see. I want to draw attention to Sand Attack, though, as an option for haxing potential counterplay. It was featured on the full pass bp team that resulted in the initial bp suspect test but I think it still has viability in spite of the new(ish) complex ban. Ninjask is immune to Spikes and phazing doesn't actually kill it, it just denies the speed pass in the short term. This means that Ninjask can have a lot of opportunities to fish for hax it needs against phazers. Skarmory has Keen Eye but Skarmory is very far from an omnipresent mu and it's vulnerable to Magneton if you really hate it, anyways.
Beyond Sand Attack, what I really want to emphasize is how low the skill floor is for piloting Ninjask and how limited the appropriate counterplay to it is. Ninjask is naturally faster than virtually the entire metagame, all you have to do once it is in play safely is alternate between Substitute and Protect until you have enough Speed Boost procs to pass to one of your sweepers. Furthermore, the risk-reward is so skewed in Ninjask's favor that the opponent has to play predictably with their counterplay while the Ninjask player can easily afford to make the reads it wants. An extra Substitute to try and cover a stat boost or Pokemon switch only costs the Ninjask a tiny portion of its health, while allowing a Ninjask to setup a Sub safely may outright cost you the game. The only reliable way to say No to a Ninjask speedpass is to have a phazer. However, you have to switch immediately (and predictably) into the phazer once Ninjask is in play and you must always immediately click Roar / Whirlwind with it. Those are two turns that Ninjask can go miss fishing with Sand Attack, chip at your phazer with HP Bug / Silver Wind, or just drypass scout your switch for momentum. A lot of teams in ADV Ubers don't even have a phazer and those are the mus that Ninjask is especially effective at preying on.
Of course, a succesful speedpass doesn't necessarily mean that you automatically lose the game. A lot of Pokemon sets become far more difficult to check when they do have increased speed and stopping them may cost you more resources than your team is designed for. Since Ninjask is so effective in its mu fish against offensive teams that lack a phazer, you can afford to hedge more heavily against fatter archetypes with your remaining 5. This is especially effective since fat, strong breakers are exactly the sort of Pokemon Ninjask wants to be speedpassing to, anyways. Ninjask also has a degree of role compression in its kit since Protect + Speed Boost allows you to revenge kill Salac sweepers or SubPet Deo-A either with Ninjask itself or by passing the speed to another Pokemon in order to do so.
There's some other niche Baton Pass abusers that I want to briefly mention. Zapdos can do speedpassing with Roar as counterplay to phazers. However, it sucks since it's not as reliable as Ninjask, nor does it have its role compression, and it's pretty easily countered by immediately switching to Lati@s. Maybe some Apicot Berry set could work but I reckon you'd get more out of just abusing a good Ninjask team. There's Endeavor Swellow who is a bit more viable in ADV Ubers since Tyranitar is so rare and even Groudon sometimes lacks the coverage to deny free setup. SubPetaya Gorebyss kinda plays like an Omastar except you get to pass a Sp. Atk boost to your Latios vs the Kyogre counter. Celebi can kinda do stuff but it's not very good since it doesn't check a whole lot and Ice Beam Lati@s are very common. Jolteon might be able to do something cheesey with Agility and/or a pinch berry thanks to Roar, strong STAB Thunder, and the ability to setup (once) in front of Lati@s.
As I said before, I was working on optimizing a lot of these strats but never got around to using them. The main reason for me failing to do so is because I found playing and testing Baton Pass teams to be incredibly dull. In my eyes, there are a lot of interesting concepts and strategies that can be explored in this metagame and it felt wasteful to me to spend my time simply cheesing my opponents just to prove a point that has already be proven time and time again.
My main issues with Baton Pass is its flowchart gameplay and tendency to emphasize team matchup as the most decisive factor in the games that it appears in. I'd argue the power level is beyond the commonly acceptable threshold as well but this point remains secondary to me. Hopefully the other folks that mitana reached out to share their thoughts on the subject, whatever they may be.
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I’ll make a quick post with my thoughts on bp/wobb.
First of all, I’m fine with most of the bp users that MMII showed. Stat passing is fine to me, there are multiple ways to outplay it (Boom/Roar/Taunt/Priorities). Offensive teams can boom while defensive teams can roar. I assume most teams have a priority user too. Bp isn’t a big part of the metagame and doesn’t pressure teambuilding that much.
BUT bp Umbreon exists. It is not about stat passing, it is about trapping. While defensive teams can outplay and roar smeargle for example, Umbreon has taunt in its moveset and this becomes problematic in my eyes (eyes of a mediocre player tho). There are some match ups where you CAN’T outplay Umbreon. When you see it, you can ff. Umbreon will trap mons one by one, or trap something and let an other one setup and 6-0 your team. To counter this mon, you need:
1°) A fast taunt (rare)
2°) Heracross without CB (against cb, umbreon can tect to check the move you’ll lock on, if you megahorn, the oppo can go Ho-oh for free, if you click something else, like rock slide, your hera is a dead mon lol)
3°) CB deo (252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 340-400 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO) (non-choice deo can give free setup for ogre once it’s trapped : -1 252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 108 HP / 148 Def Kyogre: 114-135 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery)
The problem with Umbreon is the lack of options for certain teams to have options for outplays since Boom and Roar are no longer a good option to deal with it.
Otherwise, it can take one mon on other MUs, it has a bad mu against offense.
I think bp is mostly fine, but certain abuses of Umbreon makes me want bp banned. Although, I think the metagame is good in the current state, so no ban is also fine to me. I’ll even add it forces more aggressive teams, which is cool.
Wobbuffet:
I’ll be quick, I think we should keep Wobb. It brings some diversity to the metagame, with new kinds of teams built around it. It is not broken, and, in my opinion, the gameplay is fun. (you can say I have bad tastes, but you probably run stall). Also, it forces Bliss to run speed, which is REALLY cool and makes it weaker to other mons. It makes the trap harder for Wobb, but there are also counter plays, with icy wind ogre or para on Bliss, then you can trap it at 100%, and that makes the game fun.
For Wobb, I do NOT want the ban.
Quick thoughts on random items:
Don't ban Wobb, ban BP and ban Ajencis
First of all, I’m fine with most of the bp users that MMII showed. Stat passing is fine to me, there are multiple ways to outplay it (Boom/Roar/Taunt/Priorities). Offensive teams can boom while defensive teams can roar. I assume most teams have a priority user too. Bp isn’t a big part of the metagame and doesn’t pressure teambuilding that much.
BUT bp Umbreon exists. It is not about stat passing, it is about trapping. While defensive teams can outplay and roar smeargle for example, Umbreon has taunt in its moveset and this becomes problematic in my eyes (eyes of a mediocre player tho). There are some match ups where you CAN’T outplay Umbreon. When you see it, you can ff. Umbreon will trap mons one by one, or trap something and let an other one setup and 6-0 your team. To counter this mon, you need:
1°) A fast taunt (rare)
2°) Heracross without CB (against cb, umbreon can tect to check the move you’ll lock on, if you megahorn, the oppo can go Ho-oh for free, if you click something else, like rock slide, your hera is a dead mon lol)
3°) CB deo (252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 340-400 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO) (non-choice deo can give free setup for ogre once it’s trapped : -1 252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 108 HP / 148 Def Kyogre: 114-135 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery)
The problem with Umbreon is the lack of options for certain teams to have options for outplays since Boom and Roar are no longer a good option to deal with it.
Otherwise, it can take one mon on other MUs, it has a bad mu against offense.
I think bp is mostly fine, but certain abuses of Umbreon makes me want bp banned. Although, I think the metagame is good in the current state, so no ban is also fine to me. I’ll even add it forces more aggressive teams, which is cool.
Wobbuffet:
I’ll be quick, I think we should keep Wobb. It brings some diversity to the metagame, with new kinds of teams built around it. It is not broken, and, in my opinion, the gameplay is fun. (you can say I have bad tastes, but you probably run stall). Also, it forces Bliss to run speed, which is REALLY cool and makes it weaker to other mons. It makes the trap harder for Wobb, but there are also counter plays, with icy wind ogre or para on Bliss, then you can trap it at 100%, and that makes the game fun.
For Wobb, I do NOT want the ban.
Quick thoughts on random items:
- Brightpowder: MMII already made a post about it, Pokemon is a random game, no need to add items like this. This item is legit strong on some mons and shouldn’t exist, and it is banned in SS Ubers, why not in ADV Ubers, it brings nothing to the meta but frustration when you face it.
- Quick claw also exists and it is not banned in SS Ubers, but I think it deserves a ban or at least a discussion.
Don't ban Wobb, ban BP and ban Ajencis
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Very cool team, but I think this Umbreon is banned because it have Mean Look + Baton Pass.
Umbreon @ Leftovers
- Mean Look
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Protect / Moonlight / Wish / Sand Attack
Also your team have multiple pokémon with Baton Pass what is also banned, unfortunelly.
Also, I don't understand the point to have a Shedinja in the Baton Pass chain if he doesn't know any status moves.
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Protect
- Baton Pass
I love Shedinja, as you can see in my profile, but I think it is a bit too weak to a competitive scenario, specially in a world where there is Tyranitar with Sandstorm who just kill Shedinja just to enter in the battle.
That isn't a rule in ADV Ubers, only OU. Different tiers have different rules and clauses. You can see ADV Ubers clauses below.
Shedninja isn't meant to be a consistent choice, it's meant to be a pretty specialized matchup fish that can easily win against the correct matchup of team that the person bringing it thinks will occur. It's weak in the sense that it's an unconsistent choice, but doesn't make it unviable whatsoever (at least in Ubers, can"t speak for any other tier). As for how you said sandstorm is common, he went over in his post how it isn't.
I try to use my baton pass chain team in gen 3 Ubers and is saying it's banned.That isn't a rule in ADV Ubers, only OU. Different tiers have different rules and clauses. You can see ADV Ubers clauses below.
But, indeed, I can use my baton pass chain team in gen 4 ubers.
Edit: But Mean Look + Baton Pass is working in Ubers gen3.
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I think in theory I don't like banning anything from Ubers because the point is you have all of the broken shit in one spot and only the strongest strategies/mons survive. However, I have been convinced that it may be worthwhile to look at mechanics because it's already precedent that we change the mechanics of Ubers to make it competitive (ie. Evasion/OHKO). I think BP and Wobba are at least approaching that MU Fish forcing uncompetitive limitations in the builder. I previously may have said something else but I would definitely be fine with suspecting or looking at them.
Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this, but while trying to learn about this metagame, I've found it pretty hard to find anything up-to-date on some of the Pokemon, especially Groudon and Kyogre. Are the sets from either the sample teams or from the linked mini-analysis thread in this post still relevant? If not, does anyone have just basic skeletons of what the weather mons' standard sets are? Have they evolved much over the years?
terribly sorry for this; motivation has been very low for the entire analysis writing team and writing the ENTIRETY of Groudon/Kyogre is a monumental task that we may have to cut into smaller parts. For the most parts, the sets from the sample teams are indicative of how these two Pokemon play. However, because of how versatile and centralizing they are, their EVs and final moveslots are customizable based on the needs of your teams. Protect Groudon has seen major use (and success!) on semi-stall teams to scout moves, recover more HP with Leftovers, and just overall be a nuisance; when combines with shrang's notes from the post you linked, you can get a pretty clear idea about the way these Pokemon play. There's also various teamdumps in the generation 7 and 8 Ubers subforums where you can see more sets while we slowly but surely bring the analyses up to date.
There's been talk about bp lately so I wanted to find out how much of the community stands where and if there's really enough initiative to push the tds into doing a suspect test. As such, I decided to reach out to the folks who would probably qualify for a suspect test (if there was one) by using the voting qualification criteria that was used in the last suspect test.
I've given all the folks a week to respond so I'm going to go ahead and share the results here. Mind you, a decent portion of folks still haven't responded to me yet. (who knows if they ever will, though) Additionally, I'm not even 100% sure that I reached to everybody that would qualify so there may be a few more voices missing. Regardless, this wasn't anything with any real weight and, personally, I'm interested in the input from anybody who cares enough about RS Ubers to share. So hopefully, whoever I missed will speak up in this thread or anybody else who has valuable insight that may not fallen under the specifics for voter qualification (I can already think of a few people).
30 Total Voters (22 Total Votes)
11 Ban:
This one is kinda weird since I'm not sure they were aware about the current complex ban in place. They never responded to me, though, so I'm leaving them as a ban vote.
9 No Ban:
Keys didn't actually "vote" anything but what he said lines up with a lot of the No Ban voters (sorta) so I'm counting him as one.
2 Abstain:
8 Absent:
0kay
gostop
zf
8142e33
yippie
ninjadog
QWILY
Soooo exactly 50% of the votes were for a complete Ban. That number goes up to 55% if we remove the abstain votes, while it drops down to 36% if we count out of total voting pool (well, at least the folks I asked). No Ban votes were a close ~41% of the total votes, or 45% of the votes when ignoring the abstains as well (and just 30% of total voting pool). Of note is that more than half of the No Ban voting pool (5 voters) expressed potential interest in a expansion of the current complex ban of some sort. Most of these (4 voters) were particularly interested in targetting Ninjask/Speed Passing. Of course, even those interested in a potential complex ban expansion aren't exactly convinced yet that anything should be done in the first place. Nonetheless, 80% of the votes (that weren't abstains) express a degree of interest in something being done to address Baton Pass as it currently is in the metagame.
I think the results of this limited survey shows that Baton Pass in RS Ubers deserves the attention of the Ubers tier leaders, Fc and Aberforth . I hope that they will respond to this initiative by taking the steps neccessary to satsify the community on this subject. There's clearly enough support already for it to not be simply ignored until some undetermined time.
I'd ping everybody that responded to this vote but I don't have a badge for mass pings, sorry. I also have some personal thoughts on this (limited) data but I don't want to monopolize this discussion and will give others a chance to respond and share their thoughts first. Thanks again to everybody who took the time to answer me and a bigger thanks to everybody who cares enough about ADV Ubers to talk about this subject in the first place.
I've given all the folks a week to respond so I'm going to go ahead and share the results here. Mind you, a decent portion of folks still haven't responded to me yet. (who knows if they ever will, though) Additionally, I'm not even 100% sure that I reached to everybody that would qualify so there may be a few more voices missing. Regardless, this wasn't anything with any real weight and, personally, I'm interested in the input from anybody who cares enough about RS Ubers to share. So hopefully, whoever I missed will speak up in this thread or anybody else who has valuable insight that may not fallen under the specifics for voter qualification (I can already think of a few people).
30 Total Voters (22 Total Votes)
11 Ban:
This one is kinda weird since I'm not sure they were aware about the current complex ban in place. They never responded to me, though, so I'm leaving them as a ban vote.
I fundamentally dislike arbitrary complex bans as a means to nerf an otherwise banworthy element (fuck sleep clause, fuck 1 bp per team clause) and I think just about every variation of Baton Pass abuse is banworthy in adv ubers, anyways.
Keys didn't actually "vote" anything but what he said lines up with a lot of the No Ban voters (sorta) so I'm counting him as one.
0kay
gostop
zf
8142e33
yippie
ninjadog
QWILY
Soooo exactly 50% of the votes were for a complete Ban. That number goes up to 55% if we remove the abstain votes, while it drops down to 36% if we count out of total voting pool (well, at least the folks I asked). No Ban votes were a close ~41% of the total votes, or 45% of the votes when ignoring the abstains as well (and just 30% of total voting pool). Of note is that more than half of the No Ban voting pool (5 voters) expressed potential interest in a expansion of the current complex ban of some sort. Most of these (4 voters) were particularly interested in targetting Ninjask/Speed Passing. Of course, even those interested in a potential complex ban expansion aren't exactly convinced yet that anything should be done in the first place. Nonetheless, 80% of the votes (that weren't abstains) express a degree of interest in something being done to address Baton Pass as it currently is in the metagame.
I think the results of this limited survey shows that Baton Pass in RS Ubers deserves the attention of the Ubers tier leaders, Fc and Aberforth . I hope that they will respond to this initiative by taking the steps neccessary to satsify the community on this subject. There's clearly enough support already for it to not be simply ignored until some undetermined time.
I'd ping everybody that responded to this vote but I don't have a badge for mass pings, sorry. I also have some personal thoughts on this (limited) data but I don't want to monopolize this discussion and will give others a chance to respond and share their thoughts first. Thanks again to everybody who took the time to answer me and a bigger thanks to everybody who cares enough about ADV Ubers to talk about this subject in the first place.
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Thanks for the great post. I’ve been in talks w Lasen recently since he’s the general old gens leader for resources and stuff, we have plans for another pr post in the near future because there’s still been some vocal dislike for the state of bp post restriction, and a follow up would probably be beneficial for most people. Keep an eye out for whenever we put that up, not sure on an exact date but we just talked about “after uwl”.