Abortion

[Janenmori]

Controversial, I know, but it seems to fit in with many topics in Congregation that are current being debated.

I would like to know the opinions of the members of Smogon on the issue.

DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A FLAME WAR ABOUT BABY KILLING OR RIGHTS TAKERS

(God free)
Personally, I think that abortion should be banned from common practice except for in the rare case where the mother's life is in immediate jeopordy. I am all for the rights of freedom to choose and how that is the American way, but I am against the choice regarding abortion because I see, and many others, see it as murder. Given the chance, the fetus would develop into a human being that has the same natural rights as you and me. In most cases, the two parties responsible for the human life are fully responsible for it. Rape will be addressed later in the post. Simply because they are financially unable to provide care for it in the future does not mean that they should have the option to kill it. Some argue that the fetus is not human up until certain point scientifically. However, it is still genetically human and therefore should be guranteed the rights that it deserves, especially not to be murdered. I do not believe the bullshit that religions spew about how "Its life is sacred." However, it still is a human.

Rape is another issue entirely. Let me ask you this: Does the innocent victim of another's crime deserve to die for the criminal's mistakes, especially when its life can be preserved? The rapist violated what is most cherished in a woman and created a human out of selfishness, so does the human life deserve to be lost for its father's crime?

For those of you who think that there is often no choice but to terminate the fetus, think again. There is this magical new thing called adoption (READ: sarcasm). I know that the world already suffers from overpopulation, but does that warrant a death sentence for an innocent bystander? Should we start killing the homeless because they are just useless numbers filling the street? Just because the child is unwanted by the parents or because the parents' situation is too difficult to raise the child, that does not mean that another family would not be willing to take the child as their own.

A human life is a human life, regardless of the situation in which it was created and as such, they deserve the same rights as the children who are wanted.

A side note: Partial birth abortion is just fucked up. If you do not know what it entails, google it if you have the stomach for some sick shit.

 

[b0b3rt]

Controversial, I know, but it seems to fit in with many topics in Congregation that are current being debated.

I would like to know the opinions of the members of Smogon on the issue.

DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A FLAME WAR ABOUT BABY KILLING OR RIGHTS TAKERS

(God free)
Personally, I think that abortion should be banned from common practice except for in the rare case where the mother's life is in immediate jeopordy. I am all for the rights of freedom to choose and how that is the American way, but I am against the choice regarding abortion because I see, and many others, see it as murder. Given the chance, the fetus would develop into a human being that has the same natural rights as you and me. In most cases, the two parties responsible for the human life are fully responsible for it. Rape will be addressed later in the post. Simply because they are financially unable to provide care for it in the future does not mean that they should have the option to kill it. Some argue that the fetus is not human up until certain point scientifically. However, it is still genetically human and therefore should be guranteed the rights that it deserves, especially not to be murdered. I do not believe the bullshit that religions spew about how "Its life is sacred." However, it still is a human.

Rape is another issue entirely. Let me ask you this: Does the innocent victim of another's crime deserve to die for the criminal's mistakes, especially when its life can be preserved? The rapist violated what is most cherished in a woman and created a human out of selfishness, so does the human life deserve to be lost for its father's crime?

For those of you who think that there is often no choice but to terminate the fetus, think again. There is this magical new thing called adoption (READ: sarcasm). I know that the world already suffers from overpopulation, but does that warrant a death sentence for an innocent bystander? Should we start killing the homeless because they are just useless numbers filling the street? Just because the child is unwanted by the parents or because the parents' situation is too difficult to raise the child, that does not mean that another family would not be willing to take the child as their own.

A human life is a human life, regardless of the situation in which it was created and as such, they deserve the same rights as the children who are wanted.

A side note: Partial birth abortion is just fucked up. If you do not know what it entails, google it if you have the stomach for some sick shit.

I believe the whole issue resolves around at what point you consider a fetus to become a human being. I personally believe that the fetus is part of a woman's body until the women gives birth. I admit that people do stupid things like not using protection. However, if you read the book "Freakonomics", by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt, you will find a very interesting (and somewhat controversial) argument for allowing abortions. Mainly, that the Roe v. Wade decision caused the drop in violent crime in the 1990s. The gist of the argument was that because less "unwanted" babies were being born, less children were therefore being raised in environments which caused unhealthy mental develpment. It's an argument that makes logical sense but for obvious reasons would be very difficult to prove.

However, that's not to say that abortion is a good thing: I personally don't think that women should have an abortion unless absolutely necessary, but I don't support infringing upon the rights of others for my own personal qualms.

 

[Abacus]

First of all, there is a demand for adoption greater than the supply of babies put up for adoption... that is, for white babies. The opposite is true for every other race IIRC. Sad but true.

Even if protection is used absolutely correctly and all people involved in the intercourse use every precaution, protection is not perfect. What would you say to someone who makes every attempt to not have a kid, but then the condom simply fails? For that matter, what would you say to someone who tries to use a condom, but doesn't use it correctly because they don't know how?

I don't understand how people can take the stance, "I don't think abortion should be allowed except in case of rape." If you don't approve of abortion, you believe that each abortion leads to human death. The rape is in the past, there's nothing you can do to change that now. Why should it be okay to kill someone just because you are the victim of a crime?

I personally am pro-choice, but I acknowledge that abortion is murder. I just believe that overall a society that allows abortion is healthier than a society that doesn't. Abortion is a great biological equalizer: if a child is created on accident, then the father can very well waltz away from responsibility, while the mother cannot. This great sexual inequality is stopped with abortion, and that is worth it to me.

 

[Pirika]

Given the chance, the fetus would develop into a human being that has the same natural rights as you and me.

I think the main problem is to define in what state o pregnancy the fetus should be considered a human being. Can a embryo with few weeks be considered a human being? For some people a fetus can only be considered a human being after some months of pregnancy, for others the embryo can be considered a human being when the ferlization occurs. The firsts are based on a scientific argument, the second are based on a religious argument.

I think that for a secular State, women should have the rigth to decide if they want to have a baby or not, at least in the first months of the pregnancy.

 

[Alex Practice]

I think each woman should have the right to choose what she would like to do with HER child and HER body.

That's a right that should never be taken away. Especially not by a man.

 

[ElectricCactus]

That's a right that should never be taken away. Especially not by a man.

So it would be better if the right was taken away by another woman? I'm a full supporter of feminism and equality, but these kinds of statements really irritate me.

 

[Trax]

This isn't just a debate about saving a fetus' life, it's a debate about if the fetus should have a life at all.

A chance at life isn't a life, you're not alive until you can breathe under your own power (and lets not use the "what about people who can't breathe anymore but are kept alive by machines" argument, it's irrelevant because the machine keeping them alive is not a human).

I don't think anyone really has the right to say "you must keep this fetus for 9 months so it has a chance at life" - it's not your 9 months to lose, so you can't make that decision.

 

[Thorns]

imo abortion isn't an option when the fetus is considered human. it is alright to kill an egg cell but humans...i don't feel right with it. since there's a lot of people looking to adopt, and a lot of people who can't take care of a child (credit crunch) abortion shouldn't really be considered.

 

[jjfun]

Every time a woman menstruates or a guy ejaculates he's killing cells. I think that the whole antiabortion movement is a joke based on ignorance. The sperm and egg really are just sperm and egg. There is nothing living there, they're just cells. Nothing is suffering and the cells aren't even self aware.

And even the "killing" of fetuses shouldn't be illegal, people should have a right to do what they want to their body. People make mistakes and have unprotected sex and many girls get pregnant by accident at the ages of 13 - 16, should they not be given a second chance? It helps nobody not legalizing abortion.

The law wasn't made to consider the person actually having the abortion but it was made to consider social values and religious dogma.

 

[Alex Practice]

So it would be better if the right was taken away by another woman? I'm a full supporter of feminism and equality, but these kinds of statements really irritate me.

Well, when guys talk about abortion as if they understand what it's like to carry a child or give birth, that irritates me, which is why I said especially.
I think each woman should have the right to choose what is best for herself. A bunch of guys voting on taking away that right whent hey have no idea just seems so ridiculous.

 

[moot]

I agree with the fact that it should be aborted in case of a harm to the mother's life but it's also a factor if they get raped or some such other event like that. Stupid teenagers should not be able to abort. There should be a cutoff, or some kind of psychiatric eval thing. It shouldn't be a 'oops, i got pregnant, let's kill it instead of having to go through lots of pain' type of thing at all. It's an extremely serious decision, especially in this day and age when we're still defining if a fetus is actually a human being or not.

tl;dr mother's choice but don't be stupid.

 

[panamaxis]

Is a fetus human? I'm sort of inclined to say no, I'm more swung towards that it will become human, yet is not human in the early stages. I believe we have to draw a line somewhere. A lot of people consider killing intelligent life forms wrong.

Is a fetus considered as an "intelligent being"? At what stage should the fetus be considered as "intelligent"? I am a firm believer in abortion, why should we be forced to raise a child if we do not want to / cannot?

Everything deserves a life? Have you ever killed a mosquito? Does it deserve it's life, hypothetically, how is the mosquito's life any different from the fetus's life? Is it because the fetus will grown into a more intelligent life form? Is that not possible for the mosquito (of course highly unprobable at this point in time, this is just for arguments sake).

It really comes down to how you feel about the fetus. I believe that adoption should be allowed. Does everything really deserve a life? What if, by forcing this mother to have the child, you are condemning it to a terrible life?

 

[RaikouLover]

It really comes down to how you feel about the fetus. I believe that adoption should be allowed. Does everything really deserve a life? What if, by forcing this mother to have the child, you are condemning it to a terrible life?

I actually think the whole abortion debate is a helluva lot simpler than this.

I get a little agitated at pro-life supporters for the simple fact that... you can bitch all you want killing the fetus and if its "moral" or "right" but this isn't a moral or religious issue, it is about what should be legal and illegal. Abortion being illegal is absolutely ridiculous. Who are a bunch of jackasses sitting around a table in italian suits to tell women, especially those women that may be in poverty or not have the support to provide the child with a good life to tell her what she CAN and CANNOT do with her unborn child (by technicality, I also belive the fetus is part of her body... the damn thing is just cells and I could care less if its sentient or not tbh). You can say "well just give it up for adoption" but thats another bullshit answer. Do you (pro-life supporters) know what it is like to have to give up your child?????????? Any parent would know that its not something you would ever want to do.. and it will always serve as a reminder that for whatever reason you were inadequate at providing for that child. I'm all for religious or moral ideas... but turning this issue into a morality fuck-fest is pretty irritating at times.

I also feel like its saying "I don't believe people should have sex before they are married so lets make it a law to discourage people not to" which is absurd because not everyone shares the same view and tbh, we are biologically ready to have sex in our teen years for a reason. Gah... Fuck that


EDIT:

Originally Posted by moot
Stupid teenagers should not be able to abort.

Okay comments like this piss me the fuck off. So two 17 year olds who have been dating for say... 3 years and are in love decide to make love... and they use protection and it fails (accidents happen)... so then abortion is out of the question? They clearly weren't trying to have a child, and them having sex was what they were biologically and emotionally (see: the love part) ready to do. By supporting abortion, you are discouraging people from having sex in the first place, which is as "unnatural" as gay marriage (funny how most pro life supporters are against gay marriages, but thats another debate). I don't give a shit about when YOU believe others are ready to have sex and their shouldnt be a law to discourage sex among people who are not financially able or ready to support a child. But biologically, humans were having sex and marrying teenagers off since the dawn of time for a reason... its only society that has made premarital sex less accepted and able because of how long it takes to get financially stable currently.

 

[Gorgonopsid Master]

before a baby has its first heart beat then it is a fetus and is not a human being so if we kill a fetus then we dont kill a human but if they mother has an abortion after the baby has had its first heart beat then its a baby and having an abortion is up to the mother because some mothers could have been impregnaneted while they were raped and so would you like to be carrying around your rapists baby? So abortion is entirely up to the mother religion doesnt even come into this because there is no evidense for god's (religious books dont come into this cos they could have been easily written by some guy who was high or something) so no matter what religion or family beliefs its the mothers choice

 

[cim]

I agree with the fact that it should be aborted in case of a harm to the mother's life but it's also a factor if they get raped or some such other event like that. Stupid teenagers should not be able to abort. There should be a cutoff, or some kind of psychiatric eval thing. It shouldn't be a 'oops, i got pregnant, let's kill it instead of having to go through lots of pain' type of thing at all. It's an extremely serious decision, especially in this day and age when we're still defining if a fetus is actually a human being or not.

I don't think we should have teenagers having unwanted kids to teach them a lesson about responsibility and life.

I'm personally pro-do-whatever-the-hell-you-want, as I'm male and thus don't really have a uterus.

 

[Syberia]

Abortion in the first trimester or two is probably fine, what I have a problem with are the ones where the yank the baby halfway out and then suck its brains out. It's moving at that point so you can't really tell me it's not alive, and with medical advances, it's not much past this point that it can survive on its own. And at 5-6 months (the time when they typically use this procedure), anyone who would have this type of procedure has had plenty of time to have it done the normal way already. You wouldn't let them kill a newborn just because they waited too long to have it aborted.

As always, cases in which the mother is in danger from keeping the child are the exception.

 

[sbc]

Okay comments like this piss me the fuck off. So two 17 year olds who have been dating for say... 3 years and are in love decide to make love... and they use protection and it fails (accidents happen)... so then abortion is out of the question?

If you decide to have sex, it's pretty fucking obvious that the biological reason to have sex is to have children and that you run the risk of pregnancy. If you make the decision you should be able to live with the results of it, it's not an "accident" when you make a conscious decision to have sex. It's like making a bet with your life savings and getting pissed off after losing all your money.

 

[Yoshi King]

Women should be able to do what they want with this type of situation, I agree with earlier sentiments that whether or not abortion is illegal is a decision made by suits (99.9% of which are men) who really have no idea and are basing their decisions off of their faith.

A fetus, to me, is a parasite that feeds off the host mother until it gestates. I'm all for the eradication of parasites if they're unwanted, simple as that.

 

[RobertM]

My semen can become a human being, is jerking off murder?

Using that logic, every time I have sex while using a condom, I'm murdering potential humans.

 

[Syberia]

If you decide to have sex, it's pretty fucking obvious that the biological reason to have sex is to have children and that you run the risk of pregnancy. If you make the decision you should be able to live with the results of it, it's not an "accident" when you make a conscious decision to have sex. It's like making a bet with your life savings and getting pissed off after losing all your money.

What if you're raped, or if your condom breaks?

 

[Familiar Trainer]

My semen can become a human being, is jerking off murder?

Using that logic, every time I have sex while using a condom, I'm murdering potential humans.

That logic doesn't make sense however. Sperm, by itself, cannot become a human being. Simply impossible. Add eggs to the equation however..

Sperm = Sperm

Sperm + Egg = Potential human

That said, I am all for abortion as long as it's done in early stages. An embryo has so sense of smell, taste, hearing, touch or sight. It has no idea of its surroundings, nor can it think at all. An embryo = cells. Same with an early stage fetus.

 

[sbc]

My semen can become a human being, is jerking off murder?

Using that logic, every time I have sex while using a condom, I'm murdering potential humans.

How did I know this argument would come up. Semen if left untouched will not develop into a human being. A foetus, in a womb, on the other hand will.

What if you're raped, or if your condom breaks?

Rape is obviously an exception, the crux of my post is the decision aspect and obviously you don't have a choice if raped. Your condom breaking is still, for me at least, irrelevant. If you know there is a chance of your condom breaking and you can't deal with a child, then don't have sex. It's still exactly the same point as in the analogy I made, don't bet what you can't afford. It's not as if there are no other ways of having an intimate sexual relationship without penetration.

 

[RD6]

What if you're raped, or if your condom breaks?

It's bad for you. You decided to have sex, so you have to be aware of everything(although this can be translated into a ridiculous example, such as you walk outside, you have to know about the car that hit you, but that is a highly unlikely possibility). As for rape, it will be explained later in my post.

Also, on abortion, the woman is holding her baby in her womb, and she doesn't have to go through the pain of labor and raise the baby up if she can't. Those who are financially and physically strong to do that, I believe should keep the baby. Most teenagers who have sex are too weak to go through labor, especially if there is no husband to support her. I'm pretty sure none of you would like it if your sister or friend got pregnant by another teenager and then he ran away, and now, your sister or friend has to support herself. In such cases, in which the woman cannot handle the child, she can either give birth and then give that baby to an orphanage, or abort the baby. It mostly depends on the situation. As for rape, the woman has full rights to abort the child. How would you like it if someone stole your money, and then you had to pay for that crime? Sucks, doesn't it?

 

[Syberia]

It's bad for you. You decided to have sex, so you have to be aware of everything(although this can be translated into a ridiculous example, such as you walk outside, you have to know about the car that hit you, but that is a highly unlikely possibility).

Lol, thanks for defeating your own argument for me. I guess the person who's mugged on the streets shouldn't be able to call the police, either? You expect to be safe when you go outside, just like you expect a condom to serve its intended purpose.

Most teenagers who have sex are too weak to go through labor, especially if there is no husband to support her.

Lol, that's why 100+ years ago teens having kids was perfectly normal? Not to mention they have drugs and hospitals for this kind of thing now.

It's not as if there are no other ways of having an intimate sexual relationship without penetration.

Actually, it's exactly like that. I am by no means encouraging people to fuck irresponsibly (use protection if you don't want a kid, really) but you can't honestly say not having sex can come close to having sex.

If you think people should not be able to expect a condom to work as it was intended, then I suppose you'd support repealing all the laws that protect consumers when, say, the brand new car they just bought is a piece of shit, as well?

 

[sbc]

He hasn't defeated his own argument as in the analogy of being run over (or indeed being mugged) there is a third party, i.e. a variable that you have no control over. In consensual sex, you can control directly whether or not you have sex with your partner with makes the condom splitting pretty irrelevant in that case.