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Announcement NP: Thunder - Champions OU Suspect Test

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:clefable-mega: :decidueye-hisui: :toxapex: :gliscor: :corviknight: :tyranitar: - stall
:araquanid: :froslass-mega: :volcarona: :dragapult: :samurott-hisui: :glimmora: - webs

I got reqs with the help of both of these teams. Ychu having a super dominant MU into HO & Stall is just not true. Stall has many options to deal with ychu whether that bad gliscor, hisuian decidueye, chesnaught, mega scovillain etc. Sure some of these arent Volt Switch immune but who cares you check Ychu anyways and you are more than likely prepared for its incoming partner. Hyper Offense uses its trading and immediate power to brute force ychu & its partners. Ychu barely has safe entry opportunities and is just dead as soon as it megas.

Ychu doesnt force stall/ho to run obscure pokemon at the cost of other MU's. These teams when testing are very solid even outside of the ychu MU and its ok to not run super standard stuff sometimes.

the main arguement on banning ychu is due to how difficult it is to switch into, yes there are the absurd calcs, two shotting glowking with rocks. But how often are you able to have a safe entry opportunity with ychu and fire off a Zap Cannon? Most teams have immediate pressure on ychu, if you dont have immediate pressure then theres something probably quite passive on your team: bad team. If you are running a fat or a balance, resort to megas like dragalge or meganium. If you are running a bulky offense then you have enough immediate pressure. This is not even to mention the guessing games where grounds+spdef wall can pressure ychu into taking multiple rounds of passive damage where it is easily picked off by priority/revenge killing.

Anyways I'm easily voting ban on Mega Raichu Y. Most of the DNB arguments I've seen are pretty lackluster in why we should even keep this mon around. Suggesting that it is frail is a lame excuse because most good players will always navigate around that issue, such as by using slow pivots, double switches into Corviknight and Rotom-W, or just revenge killing slower foes like Mega Metagross. There are already other frail yet powerful attackers banned in this tier (i.e Mega Lucario, Mega Starmie, Mega Blastoise after Shell Smash), yet they share similar issues to Mega Raichu such as 4MSS, weakness to priority, weakness to hazards barring Mega Lucario, etc.
It being very frail is a really big factor, the main defensive cores that Ychu fits on are Big 4 cores with glowking+corv. These as of now are super exploitable from Pokemon such as SD/Utility Hrott and other threatening wallbreakers. Ychu's defensive core will eventually be (quite quickly) wittled down due to the offensive tier that is Champions OU. A lot of fast Pokemon such as Dragapult/Z Megas/Scarfers are also very threatening to handle so its not like switching into your defensive mon is very free as well.

Saying that you can use Galarian Slowking + Ground-type is also a weak excuse since it forces unhealthy 50/50s between Zap Cannon/Volt Switch and whatever coverage it is using. Even if Mega Raichu Y gets it wrong, it can just hard pivot into something like Corviknight, and get the momentum back later on, to repeat this cycle. Meanwhile, the defensive side getting a predict wrong is detrimental later on, especially if Mega Raichu Y doesn't end up dying to hazards or priority (which is unlikely anyways).
Not really a 50/50 in the grand scheme of things. Ychu is most defintely going to click Zap Cannon turn 1. No one is going to soul read the first turn of the game and click Focus Blast and potentially thud into Glowking or the target and Ychu just combusting.


Every team should also have priority as well. Champions OU has a famous amount of sweepers so priority is a must. Whether that be anything from priority on hammu/pod/scizor/kingambit etc. All of these priority options can easily threaten out ychu as the rest of the defensive core gets damaged.

This is why I am voting DO NOT BAN, Ychu is a pokemon that is already being adapted to right now and not necessarily in a very unhealthy way. If any BAN voters want to give me a replay of Ychu actually being broken then feel free to PM me it.
 
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If there are any BAN ychu voters that can explain a counter arguement to my post feel free to argue against me. All I see is the absurd damage calcs but seeing very few replays of this being actually taken into effect, also not accepting replays where they have zero resists or their electric resist being dragapult/scarf pokemon.
 
Okay, now that I actually found time to sit down and finish reqs, I want to lay out my thoughts on M-Raichu Y and why, even though it sometimes appears more reasonable to handle in battle, I will still be voting to BAN it.

Raichu Y is incredibly frail, yes. This is its most glaring weakness other than it contributing nothing to a team defensively. If the opposing team is well prepared for it, it can appear to not be particularly overwhelming. Typically this is seen in some bulky ground type+glowking, and usually a faster scarfer to revenge KO it. This is on paper, quite a deal of prep for one Pokemon. Then you see that many such cores are often comprised of the best pokemon in the tier (ex. glowking, garchomp, samurott but sometimes another scarfer, or priority). This might lead one to think, "well if it's so well prepared for, why is it a problem? Why should it be banned if prepping for it isn't inherently backbreaking?"

And to me, this type of structure's prominence is in part (and not a small part I'd argue) to Raichu Y. Yes, fundamentally the structure is synergistic so it's good. But comfortably building a team without bulky ground+glowking(or rather commonly, Mega Dragalge) feels really hard, because only loading one part of these is inviting a huge risk. Run only a ground, and Raichu-Y, should it have the appropriate anti-ground coverage for your chosen ground, can very possibly just pick it off and spam its stab freely. Run only a special regenerator tank, and Raichu easily outlasts it with hazard support (glowking taking Zap into Volt with rocks up is completely one sided in the match up. Btw Volt is almost as much a contributor to its highly annoying status.

Offensive resists to this do not exist because they will eat Zap Cannon, be paralyzed and then be useless afterwards. Thus, it's crucial to have a structure which forces Raichu Y to predict more. And then of course, you can't solely rely on just this pivoting prediction game or else you're opening yourself up to losing that one good predict and being way behind afterwards. Thus those fast scarfers or priority is common alongside these defensive pairings to really be ensured.

Thus it feels like bulkier teams get sort of pigeonholed into these sorts of structures and even if they're naturally great, this still feels limiting quite notably in the builder and it's a rather frustrating dynamic. Raichu-Y also quite prominently helps these very structures themselves by offering speed control and wallbreaking in one slot, elevating them further. While it's far from the sole reason for the highly common presence of this team structure, it does play a fairly sizable part. Its presence is annoyingly restrictive and limiting, and I believe removing it will put less stress on the builder, and less pressure to run these kinds of cores, allowing for greater teambuilding flexibility.

Yes, at this stage there will always be a degree of limit to the builder due to the rather sparse pool of pokemon. However pokemon like Raichu-Y place an extra burden which just exacerbates things and its removal would be beneficial. I will be voting BAN.
 
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(I fought against a 1700s player using the Dugtrio team and that just reinforced all my thoughts)

Im not sure how much there is to say that hasn't already been said, so I'll just say it all. I particularly agree with Moyashi's and Mr Zangler's posts, I don't appreciate Raichu-Y's presence one bit.

There are a lot of pokemon that can 1v1 Raichu, most ground types don't just die to the coverage, and Raichu can't fit every move in one moveset. The idea of an unwallable breaker has existed before and doesn't make a mon inherently broken. I think what breaks Raichu to me is the Paralysis that comes from Zap Cannon and Substitute.

In order to beat Raichu, you need to:
Outspeed it: This means :Dragapult:, :Sneasler:, a Choice Scarfer, or a faster mega, of which there are many choices.
Use Priority: So many options, most commonly :Samurott-Hisui:, :kingambit:, :Aegislash:, :Ceruledge:, :Lopunny-Mega:, :Rillaboom:, :Golisopod-Mega:, :Dragonite:, :Metagross-Mega:, and maybe :Pawmot:
Wall it: :Dragalge-Mega:, uhhhhhh,:Gliscor:? Spdef:Decidueye-Hisui:?:Chesnaught:if they dont have Alluring Voice? Yeah "Unwallable" isn't much of an Exageration
Defensively Pivot around Zap Cannon and hope it doesn't click the coverage move that 1 or 2 shots you: :Garchomp: :Excadrill: :Hippowdon:
Defensively Pivot around Zap Cannon and hope you don't get full Para'd when you Chilly: :Slowking-Galar:
Defensively Pivot around Zap Cannon, get Paralysed and take 35% plus Hazards and/or get volt switched on: :Meganium-Mega:, :Rillaboom:

If its not clear, I think the defensive counterplay that doesn't involve Glowking or Mega Dragalge to be extremely gimmicky and inconsistent. Both these pokemon are undoubtedly good, but they have clear unfavorable matchups (notably Garchomp and Samurott) that Raichu teams can always fit. Volt Switching on the right turn can lead to Samurott coming in on Glowking and threaten Ceaseless Edge, just in general do Samurott things.

So Volt Switch is scary, but can't you just go into your ground type? Of course not. because this fast Electric type is packing perfectly accurate Focus Blasts of its base 160 SpA stat. Dazzling Gleam, Surf, and Grass Knot exist too and Raichu will always be running the 1 or 2 of them that matches up best against that poor balance team you're trying to build.

When using a common structure of Glowking + Ground type to try to answer Raichu, I find that this situation unfairly favors the Raichu player over the course of a game. Garchomp and Glowking can easily be pressured into 2HKO range or 1HKO range in the case of Garchomp. Most Hippowdowns straight up die to Grass Knot and the smallest chip like 2 layers of spikes. Sure, the safest play to start this matchup ends up being Raichu using Zap Cannon into Glowking, but after that, Galarian Slowking ends up Paralysed, so Glowking for the rest of the game has a permanent 12.5% chance to do absolutly nothing every turn. I think so far when discussing Raichu, especially from the ban side, people are WAY too quick to complelty ingore the Paralysis this thing spreads. Paralysis has been nerfed but its still here.

Lowkey the teams with the best matchup into Raichu tend to be the fastest HO available and Big 4 + Mega teams. The pressure that Raichu does to archetypes like Stall and Offense is extremely limiting to an unfun degree. I been resorting to using things like Chople Berry SpDef. Excadrill. Sure OatIsHere made a stall that doesn't Instantly lose to Raichu, but its certainly the first one Ive ever seen. I'd be very suprised if you don't sacrifice other matchups. Gliscor has felt absolutely useless every time i've used it.
the main arguement on banning ychu is due to how difficult it is to switch into, yes there are the absurd calcs, two shotting glowking with rocks. But how often are you able to have a safe entry opportunity with ychu and fire off a Zap Cannon?
Like really easily? I dunno using Glowking or Corv or Healing Wish Hatt or Flip Turn Samurott or U-Turn Dragapult is like the easiest thing in the world, these are the strongest pokes in the tier. Also you can just double.

Anyways yeah Raichu is frail, but not THAT frail. It also does have some reltively decent defensive utility with Lightning Rod in the base form. I've switched into Rotom Wash and Hatterene clicking Volt Switch and Nuzzle respectively. Its not like Raichu actually dies to Hydro Pump or Psychic Noise, so it gives you some wiggle room.

The fact that its not actually that frail leads to it surviving a lot of priority moves if its not chipped. The Electric Typing even gives it a resistence to Bullet Punch.
32+ Atk Black Glasses Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 109-129 (80.7 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Most common priority user in the tier)
32+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y in Grassy Terrain: 102-121 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (It even has a chance to survive Life Orb)
32+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 127-150 (94 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Kingambit needs allies fainted but Raichu is good at making progress in the early game)
32+ Atk Lopunny-Mega Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 61-73 (45.1 - 54%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO (Fake Out into Mach Punch only kills half the time)
32+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO
32+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 75-90 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 2 Def Raichu-Mega-Y: 42-49 (31.1 - 36.2%) -- 60.1% chance to 3HKO (Not much but can finish off a Raichu)

Sucker Puch is the most common priority in the tier and Raichu-Y learns and uses Substitute. Substitute is an insane move on Raichu, since its so threatening it often forces a switch from the opponent. It lets if safely fire off the strongest move into whatever its opponent is. I think its probably the thing that pushes Raichu over the edge to broken for me. If it always ran 4 attacks, Samurott and Kingambit would be so consistant at checking it, but they simply can't.

Lastly, Fast Pokemon. In general its not that hard for Raichu teams to prepare for most pokemon fast than it. None of these pokemon can switch into it either, since Raichu will just paralyze whatever you try to. Mega Loppuny, Absol Z (Maybe) and most of the common scarfers thud into Corviknight, which by high ladder usage stats (from M-B, so take it with a grain of salt) is Raichu's most common partner. Corviknight also keeps hazards away, which mean Raichu can survive more priority moves. Honestly these fast pokemon you just have to outplay kinda, many pokemon have been broken in the past despite being able to be outsped and one shot.

so yeah I'll be voting Ban on :Raichu-Mega-Y:Mega Raichu-Y:Raichu-Mega-Y:.

Ban Samurott Hisui :samurott_hisui:
 
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Got reqs using these teams:

Dugtrio is Broken's Ychu Team with changes: https://pokepast.es/5bea0edbd8faf462
Sample Glim Stall Team with changes: https://pokepast.es/df6830dcf2dfb5c6
Zard Y Bulky Offense: https://pokepast.es/caea15b89453fdcc (Mainly used this team for higher ladder)

I started my suspect test run with the Ychu team to see if it's actually broken and had to switch teams because of how inconsistent it was. First, that team just gets farmed by Sneasler. Second, Ychu is inconsistent. Zap Cannon forces annoying 50-50 scenarios and while using this team I got punished if I got it wrong due to the team's overall passivity. I don't think anyone who got reqs so far got them using Ychu which is kind of telling.

However, I still think Ychu should get banned. These 50-50 scenarios are inherently uncompetitive and shouldn't be part of a healthy metagame. I didn't actually face too many Ychus while getting reqs, and I unfortunately didn't save any replays while I was using the Ychu team (This is my first suspect test allow me). But here's a replay of the one Ychu team I did face that shows what I'm talking about:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2688395900?p2

I'll be voting Ban
 
Quad steel scarf pelipper team i used for reqs

Scarf peli is incredibly funny, used to spam this in gen 8 to cheese wins and it still works lmao.
Every slow mon I have has random speed creep for mirrors. Drill sash is for glim leads and raichu Y

This team did pretty well into most mega raichu y teams I ran into aside from psy terrain teams. I think I will be voting ban just due to team constriction but I will be reading what everyone else says about the mon before the vote
 
Well, took a while but finally got reqs. With how much I faced Raichu during playing to get reqs, I remain pretty convinced that it is manageable. It is strong for sure, but it has switch-ins that are very good pokemon, and beyond that, it's frailty means that anytime you can maneuver in something that is faster or has decent priority against it, you force it out. It is completely manageable to limit its opportunities sufficiently for your checks to be able to deal with it
 

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Finished my reqs

This took me a lot longer than I thought and part of the reason why was because I thought it would be fun to use Yaichu to do the reqs. However, the more I use it, the more I am of the opinion that it's really not as good as people suggest and I ended up dropping it. If you look at the teams people used for reqs, you see a surprisingly little amount of Yaichu and usage is low in general, for good reason imo.

This is the team I used for reqs afterwards:
:Floette-Mega: :Pawmot: :Garchomp: :Samurott-Hisui: :Corviknight: :Slowking-Galar:
https://pokepast.es/d956505178815a34

What does Chu do? Well, chu is a fast and frail Wallbreaker. It struggles to switch in, gets revenged very easily, but is also hard to switch into.

Before discussing Yaichu though, let's talk about the teams it's used on. Yaichu *needs* slow pivoting to actually get on the field, making Glowking a crucial partner. If you continue building, you will usually end up with a Big 4 style team. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't seen a major Yaichu team that isn't Big 4. For the 6th slot, you either see a defensive mon like Clef on Dugtrio Yaichu, or something with Offensive synergy and pivoting like Meowsc and draga.

Why does this matter? I want to call attention towards 2 major weaknesses of Chu teams.

Defensive Chu teams, where the 6th slot is a defensive mon, struggle to break through the opposing team once Chu is dead. This puts a *lot* of pressure on the Chu to stay alive. You have to switch out of many mons just in case they have scarf to scout them, need to be really careful with prio, etc. But most importantly, it's really risky to go for predictions, if the mon in front of you can kill you if you make the wrong move. If you have Chu in against a 30% chomp with a set running just Zap and Focus as an example, there is a lot of pressure on the Chu player to click Focus, which the opponent can use to switch into a ghost type, or Glowking to heal it back up. Defensive Chu teams just crumble if Chu is gone and can't really afford to consistently make risky predictions with it, which makes it a lot easier to handle.
For that reason, defensive Chu teams also kind of *have* to run Sub, because without Sub it's really risky to actually predict, limiting the coverage to just Blast and allowing many grounds to tank 2 hits.
Unless you drop Volt Switch, but without Volt Switch Glowking takes a lot less damage on each switch in.

Summary: Defensive chu teams have a lot of pressure on Chu to stay alive, which limits it's predictions and moveset, making it hard to break through quickly

Now offensive Chu team: These usually try to form a VoltTurn combo and they are absolutely broken against anything without an electric immunity, but most teams *do* have one. They struggle against dark types and have a really hard time to switch into chomp, which is a big Problem since scarf Hamu (or Gambit when lacking sub) like to come in on Chu, just like Chomp. I mentioned above that you kind of have to run Sub and this is another reason, being this Sucker weak on a team that cannot repeatedly switch into dark types sucks.
In my experience, Chu takes too long to get going and in the meantime, your opponent has many ways to just deal big blows to your team.

Basically, Chu teams either go defensive and make it easier to deal with Chu due to the pressure on it to survive, or they go offensive and often falls victim to getting out offensed by the opposing team.

Not everyone who thinks Yaichu is banworthy even thinks it's all that good though:
People who are voting to ban mainly make the argument that Yaichu is banworthy, due to the difficulty to switch into it safely. I disagree:
Every style of team has options that can switch into it safely at least once.

HO has Rilla, BO and Balance have G-Slowking, Stall has all kind of stuff to deal with it. Most well build teams naturally have something that acts as a 1 time guaranteed Chu check.

A big misunderstanding I am seeing is that people think you need to be able to come in against Chu safely *repeatedly* and yes, most teams can't do that. But you don't need Stall it out forever on an offense team, all you need to do is check it 1-2 times to give the rest of your team time to out offense your opponent.

Yes, if you want to check it repeatedly, then it becomes very prediction oriented. But if you need to switch into Yaichu multiple times throughout the battle, you are most likely doing something wrong.

Now I am probably hearing people arguing that slow pivots allow it to get in repeatedly safely, but you can easily avoid that by just switching into something that Chu doesn't like to come in against if your opponent has a slow pivot on the field. Sure, you cannot avoid it from switching in at all, but you can make it really difficult for Chu to come in with careful positioning and just expecting the pivot and then Chu to come out already.

Even teams that don't have dedicated Chu awnsers usually find ways to play around it. I ran a Stall team without ground and dealt with it by burning it with Scov and the stalling it out with protect spam, rocks and sitrus Glowking.
There was this stall team that was quite weak to Chu that simply ran protect corv and Wacan Toxa to stall out Zap Cannon PP. I've also build a psychic terrain HO team where nothing can switch into Chu, but it doesn't matter since nothing lets it come in either, because everything on the team is either faster or bulky enough to survive 1 hit.
What I am trying to say is, Chu *is* really hard to switch into, but in practise, this mon is far more manageable than many other threats in this format.

These are my arguments why Chu should not be banned. It's frail, takes too long to get going and teams build around it are often weak to the threats it invites in, making it easy to out offense it.

Now there are a few arguments in favour of banning it:

1: Set variety. With sub, volt switch, Nasty, all kinds of coverage moves, etc. It's hard to always make the right play. Pivoting around can get punished hardly by Nasty + Sub sets. As I mentioned above, Chu only has very limited safe switchins in most teams and getting those ruined by a surprise set can be devastating and overwhelming.

2: Full Para. A large part of my argument is me saying that most teams have at least 1 one time safe switch in. This is not true if you get full parad. Luckily full para is only 12.5%, but getting full parad on the Chilly reception out and inviting a Hamu or Chompnis for free is something really hard to recover from. It's unlikely, but the fact that the few safe switchins it does have can just gets haxed through with luck is a very uncomortetive aspect of Chu.

Due to this, I am kind of torn apart between wanting to ban it and not. I never feel like it's that much of a problem and don't even think it's nearly as good as people say it is personally, but Chu also doesn't really offer anything for this Meta game either and banning it feels like just getting rid of a way you can get haxed through even when you played correctly.
I am also annoyed by how much attention this thing gets, when other threats feel a lot more broken than it does.

For now, I am saying DNB. But if this thing keeps getting attention like it does now, I could see myself to just want to get rid of it.

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I changed my mind. I always ran Sitrus on my Glowking so far and therefore did not realize that it has good odds to get 2HKOd with just a single layer of spikes or rocks up, guaranteed with 2 layers.
Glowking not being able to take that 1 guaranteed save switch kind of breaks my entire argument.

I still think it isn't as great and mostly manageable in practise, but not having a save switch in makes it kinda toxic regardless

I also just lost a game due to Fullpara on Glowking again. Nobody needs this

I vote Ban
 
Quad steel scarf pelipper team i used for reqs

Scarf peli is incredibly funny, used to spam this in gen 8 to cheese wins and it still works lmao.
Every slow mon I have has random speed creep for mirrors. Drill sash is for glim leads and raichu Y

This team did pretty well into most mega raichu y teams I ran into aside from psy terrain teams. I think I will be voting ban just due to team constriction but I will be reading what everyone else says about the mon before the vote
I want to add to what I said before, if HDB were in the game Ychu (and a lot of the offensive issues in champs) would be completely manageable. I’m going to be voting ban for now but I think there should be a retest if boots are brought back in the future.
 
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I'm was pretty on the fence what with there being two more faster megas, Rilla being added, since M-B, but No Guard Zap Cannon forcing a para status kinda pushes YChu over the edge for me. You already hit like an atomic bomb but para cheese and the speed control inherent to no guard zap is just kind of crazy and in my experience YChus I played against where I won would be due to the opp making a poor play. SpDef Exca isn't the most common set by any means, but so many chus will just fire off the blast, do 80% and die to ground move. A well played Ychu really does just keep you having to guess all the time and it feels stacked in their favor, even if not to an absolutely insane degree. I also imagine that there is a good deal left of innovation to be made with the rat as its utility movepool is as wide as its coverage movepool, and findings like Encore Samu like, revolutionized the mon, so when more chu's arent just sub 3A i think itll become more difficult to deal with than it already is. I will, almost certainly, be voting ban, but could see a drop down the line in later Regs.

Got reqs last night with this after a number of failed attempts with a loss pre 1200. Empoleon gaming. Shoutouts to Magcargo for making the team that served as the basis for this one back like a month or two ago idr:
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https://pokepast.es/905ab4217cd66458
 
This is the first time I have ever got suspect recs. I am voting DNB for Biggie Cheese aka Ychu. I understand that Ychu has high damage potential, great speed, really good coverage and no mis zap cannon, but every time I fought it, it gets one or two shot without doing anything. Here are the teams I have laddered with. Shoutout Mr Zangler for providing me with all the teams.

https://pokepast.es/c4b86f29f7a76a5f Lopunny Grassy Offense :Lopunny-mega: :hawlucha: :rillaboom: :Aegislash: :glimmora: :dragapult:
this team has a lot of priority which laughs in the face of Ychu and other fast mons. I swapped fake out for SD on lop on recommendation by Mr. Zangler. Mega Lop in general is really good into many of the speedy megas, especially with SD and scrappy mach punch.

https://pokepast.es/5da4ef5206a8814c We WITCH over here reg MC :delphox-mega: :Decidueye-hisui: :samurott-hisui: :clefable: :excadrill: :dragonite:
Classic Zangler team updated for reg MC. Its a solid team and I got really close to getting this with recs alone but I got into a loosing streak (Hamu is the best and worst mon ever [I missed too many ceaseless]). Ice spinner Dnite is really cool tech for the terrain spam on the ladder, especially grassy.

https://pokepast.es/70a2189f20d51061 YTsafe Sucker4AbsolMeat :absol-mega-z: :samurott-hisui: :excadrill: :kingambit: :hatterene: :volcarona:
Mr. Zangler posted this team today on champsOUcord and I decided to use it. This team requires good positioning at times but it goes hard. This team looses to hard trick room mega camel to (ran into Mr. Zangler himself multiple times on ladder using hard trickroom mega camel and lost hard).

Despite my opinion, I am aware that the majority doesn't want Ychu to stay in the tier. I hope that this isn't permanent especially with the nature of mons and items being added to champs. It would suck if he rots in Ubers for eternity because he is...........

Mr. Lover lover, Mmm, Mr. Lover lover
She call me Mr. Boombastic
Say me fantastic touch me on the back
She says I'm Mr. Ro
Mantic, say me fantastic
Touch me on the back, she says I'm Mr. Ro

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1791170918475.png
(the proof btw)
 
I recently(like 45 minutes ago) got recs for the first time, and I wanted to share my opinion on Mega Raichu Y (henceforth referred to as ychu in this post). I will be voting ban on this suspect. Ychu is just an incredibly powerful pokemon, capable of very easily just winning games the second the opponent loses their ground types. It’s also fairly easily able to deal with them, with it constantly forcing 50/50s every time it switches in on “is it clicking zap cannon or is it clicking grass knot/focus blast?” There were many games where I just forced the opponent into a checkmate position with a single right prediction on the 50/50, and then just clicked zap cannon a few times and won. Even if a pokemon survives the zap cannon, they are still crippled by the speed reduction from para, and even then have a 12.5% chance to just not get a turn (which may not sound like much, but there was 2 or 3 games out of the ~40 that I played for recs that I won due to full para). There are pretty much 0 mons that can actually take a zap cannon, with even spdef gking taking 30-40%, and rilla taking 35-45%. Overall, the fact that it can force 50/50s by simply existing, it’s insane offensive power combined with utility in just zap cannon alone, and it being able to just win games upon the opponent losing all their ground types, is why I am voting ban on this suspect.

Teams I used(credit Mr Zangler for all of them he is the goat ctc of our generation):

Mega Ychu Scarf Gliscor BO: The primary team I used, also the one that convinced me to change my opinion from DNB to ban after using it. Scarf Gliscor put in a shocking (no pun intended) amount of work.

Sucker4AbsolMeat: mega absol BO, didn’t use it too much but used it for a few games

Delphox Balance: one of my favorite teams to use in the tier overall, and was the second most used team I had these reqs.

Proof of my reqs(screenshot on phone b/c I’m in bed now because it’s 3am):
IMG_2163.jpeg
 
I recently(like 45 minutes ago) got recs for the first time, and I wanted to share my opinion on Mega Raichu Y (henceforth referred to as ychu in this post). I will be voting ban on this suspect. Ychu is just an incredibly powerful pokemon, capable of very easily just winning games the second the opponent loses their ground types. It’s also fairly easily able to deal with them, with it constantly forcing 50/50s every time it switches in on “is it clicking zap cannon or is it clicking grass knot/focus blast?” There were many games where I just forced the opponent into a checkmate position with a single right prediction on the 50/50, and then just clicked zap cannon a few times and won. Even if a pokemon survives the zap cannon, they are still crippled by the speed reduction from para, and even then have a 12.5% chance to just not get a turn (which may not sound like much, but there was 2 or 3 games out of the ~40 that I played for recs that I won due to full para). There are pretty much 0 mons that can actually take a zap cannon, with even spdef gking taking 30-40%, and rilla taking 35-45%. Overall, the fact that it can force 50/50s by simply existing, it’s insane offensive power combined with utility in just zap cannon alone, and it being able to just win games upon the opponent losing all their ground types, is why I am voting ban on this suspect.

Teams I used(credit Mr Zangler for all of them he is the goat ctc of our generation):

Mega Ychu Scarf Gliscor BO: The primary team I used, also the one that convinced me to change my opinion from DNB to ban after using it. Scarf Gliscor put in a shocking (no pun intended) amount of work.

Sucker4AbsolMeat: mega absol BO, didn’t use it too much but used it for a few games

Delphox Balance: one of my favorite teams to use in the tier overall, and was the second most used team I had these reqs.

Proof of my reqs(screenshot on phone b/c I’m in bed now because it’s 3am):View attachment 867809
Oh also I forgot to mention this but I 100% think he deserves a retest when we get more good ground types like ting-lu or lando T do NOT keep him trapped in Ubers hell forever
 
Oh also I forgot to mention this but I 100% think he deserves a retest when we get more good ground types like ting-lu or lando T do NOT keep him trapped in Ubers hell forever
I’d like to second this. It still possible that there are many aspects of Raichu’s kit that may indeed prove to be extremely uncompetitive—even in environments that are diverse in answers to its shenanigans—but I do think that Raichu ought to be high on the list to be dropped and then re-tested in some later regulation. As it stands, I am still Ban, and having watched a couple of my pals get reqs—thanks yourdoom_2016 and RocketMaid for letting me watch your suspects and iterate on my original opinion a bit—my vote remains the same and I feel quite confident in my opinion that Raichu ought not be allowed to remain in the tier for now.

I really tried to reconsider my opinion, especially given OatIsHere and yourdoom_2016 ‘s adamance that it ought to stay, but I simply can’t bring myself to feel any different even weeks and hundreds of games to consider later.

I believe the primary issue with Raichu seems to be that the diversity and availability of its checks are simply not sufficient enough to make counterplay consistent or fair. Raichu’s checks are few in number or otherwise difficult to slot onto teams for one reason or another, which makes it significantly easier to prep for Pokemon that give it trouble. Raichu’s current defensive checks are also some of the most pressured Pokemon in the tier: Garchomp, Slowking and Hippowdon often have to hold a great number of threats at bay in every game. It’s not unreasonable for its checks to be forced to check another member of its team before it’s able to stop Raichu.

If I were spitballing, I would say it would be tenable to retest once a sufficient number of ground types and/or special checks arrive to Champions. Pokemon like Gliscor, Landorus, Clodsire/Quagsire, Gastrodon, Nidoqueen/king, Ferrothorn, Amoongus, Zeraora, and Blissey are all worth looking out for. Access to :Assault Vest: will also probably improve Raichu’s chances to remain legal.
 
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Eligible Voters: 45
Votes: 40

Mega Raichu Y
Ban: 27
Do Not Ban: 13
Ban %: 67.5

Even with the remaining 5 votes, Ychu is guaranteed to be banned from Champions OU. Vote will remain open for those of you remaining to count towards your badge. Thanks everybody for participating!
 
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