Resource VGC 2024 Regulation F Viability Rankings

[Robbie35646]

These are the official Viability Rankings for VGC 2024 Regulation F. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking each and every usable pokemon into different tiers based on how viable we believe them to be. We encourage you to post your thoughts and opinions on on the various usable Pokemon in VGC and what tier you think they should belong in. Posts in this thread will be taken into consideration when deciding changes to the VR.

The general idea of this is to rank every usable Pokemon in VGC into different rankings that will go in descending order. Since we are evaluating the entirety of the metagame, we will not be splitting Pokemon based on their roles within teams - supportive and offensive Pokemon will be ranked based on their impact that they have on the meta and the teams they will be brought for.

Finally, there will be a Council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of each Pokemon. As the Series tend to be fairly short, we will be attempting to keep this up-to-date based on what's going on in the tournament scene and adapting our list based on both tournament results and ladder success as the metagame evolves. Keep in mind, your posts and insights are still very valuable to us and will be a factor in any changes that we make. This thread would be nothing without the community and all of your input, so if you feel you have a good grasp on the metagame and fully understand the forum rules, then don't be hesitant to post.

VGC 2024 Regulation F Viability Rankings

S
Flutter Mane
Incineroar
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Raging Bolt

A+
Urshifu

A
Amoonguss
Chien-Pao
Landorus
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Rillaboom
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

A-
Farigiraf
Gholdengo
Gouging Fire
Kingambit
Tornadus

B+
Arcanine-Hisui
Chi-Yu
Dondozo
Dragonite
Entei
Glimmora
Indeedee-F
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

B
Iron Crown
Landorus-Therian
Porygon2
Roaring Moon
Tatsugiri
Volcarona

B-
Archaludon
Baxcalibur
Iron Hands
Ninetales-Alola
Ting-Lu
Torkoal
Ursaluna


C+
Articuno
Cresselia
Gallade
Hatterene
Heatran
Iron Bundle
Pelipper
Regidrago
Registeel

C
Armarouge
Kommo-o
Latias
Metagross
Ogerpon
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Primarina
Scream Tail
Smeargle
Walking Wake

C-
Clefairy
Dragapult
Grimmsnarl
Lilligant-Hisui
Magmar
Okidogi
Suicune
Whimsicott

 

[LovelyLuna]

Another VR, more broken fingers from Leo!

Incineroar from A+ -> S

Usage-wise, this Pokemon is not doing so well, as much as Urshifu and below Flutter Mane and Ogerpon-W, so the ranking would make sense at first glance, but there are more factors than splashibility to determine how viable a Pokemon is. Incineroar may compete with many fire types, 5 others being B+ or above, but what really makes it S tier, is its impact on the game. Incineroar can consistently be alive from start to finish and make a huge impact by simply switching in and out. It might not be able to take on Ogerpon-Wellspring or Raging Bolt , but it can mitigate their damage output with Intimidate and Parting Shot respectively. Incineroar can put in so much work simply switching in and out throughout the entire game that it rarely needs to Terastallize, making its meta matchup incredible. This, in particular, gives it an edge because Flutter Mane , usually lasts 2-4 turns on the field, quickly trading itself for huge damage if not for a kill. This means that if a Pokemon has a bad matchup into Flutter Mane, it's significantly easier to remove it, unlike if something has a bad matchup against Incineroar, where Incineroar will likely be on their side the entire game. We have examples of it already actually, think Iron Hands who dropped 5 tiers with the introduction of Incineroar , definitely not the only contributor but the major one.

Amoonguss from A -> A+

Amoonguss has just been a very consistent alternative to Ogerpon-Wellspring , and occasionally a good partner. Incineroar is definitely the perfect addition for it, a Fire-type with Knock Off is the perfect check to Amoonguss ' common answers. Amoonguss resisting Urshifu-R 's and Fluter Mane 's Fighting and Fairy STAB respectively is always a huge plus over Wellspring , especially when it can heal off the damage and come back to do it throughout the game. Similar to Incineroar in a sense, being able to bring an impact the majority of the game and Spore applying a lot of pressure, in the battle and the teambuilder. This is especially prevalent in balance mirrors as Amoonguss can single-handedly extend them with Spore and Pollen Puff. If balance mirrors were like chess, Amoonguss would easily be the king, you lose it, you pretty much lose the game.

Urshifu-R from A -> A+ or Urshifu-S from A+ -> A

I strongly believe the majority of Urshifu's usage is exploration and not an accurate representation of their viability, Urshifu-R puts so much strain on the team builder and forces teams to run Raging Bolt + Ogerpon-W , Spe Booster Flutter Mane + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Raging Bolt , and many of these checks with hard speed control like Tornadus , Farigiraf , and Indeedee . This alone is fantastic, and then you realize it still beats the top 4, as well as half of the A and A- tiers when using its most common Scarf set. Urshifu-R should be on par with its Single-Strike counterpart from the teambuilding strain and how much more oppressive it can be, outspeeding and threatening OHKOs is a lotscarier than what Urshifu-S can do with a Focus Sash or Choice Band set. Not to mention its dominant set competes with Chien-Pao , another A tier.

Rillaboom :Rillaboom from A- -> A

Rillaboom is simply an incredible and consistent Pokemon with its offensive and supportive toolkit. I believe people were experimenting with other teams and new Pokemon, which is why its usage was so low, we can see that it made the top 12 graph at Liverpool and it can only go higher with Wolfe's 6 winning twice in a row. We can see that in the two recent 100+ player limitless tournaments Rillaboom is up with Tornadus and Urshifu as well. Hard to say anymore since Rillaboom is doing the same thing it was doing last regulation, relatively fast Fake Out pivot with a lot of offensive pressure in Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide.

Gholdengo , Ursaluna-B and Iron Crown from A- -> B+

The two just currently struggle too much in comparison to their A- counterparts. Gholdengo 's Choice Specs set has lost viability with the introduction of Steel resists in Incineroar and Raging Bolt , making it a lot less versatile, and it always has to compete with Flutter Mane on teams which is even harder now when the metagame has slowed down and become infested with Fire- and Dark-types, its sad that I can count so many poor matchups for Gholdengo from B+ and up. Definitely not any worse though, Gholdengo is still a deadly sweeper with the right support, and its typing brings crucial resistances, acting as a check to many Pokemon in one.

As for Ursaluna-B , it does not belong in the same tier as Farigiraf . Farigiraf is actually flexible in which teams it can go on, and went without an Ursaluna half the time at Liverpool, notably it ran a Trick Room mode with Torkoal Ogerpon-Cornerstone but it stands, Ursaluna-B simply fits on a lot less teams than Farigiraf, why even when we see Farigiraf hit 7th, Bloodmoon never makes it on the graph. The Trick Room teams are still deadly and make up a good portion of teams, don't think it is realistic for the Pokemon to drop any lower.

I think this case is very similar to Iron Crown 's, it relies on Indeedee but Indeedee always has the option to opt for Trick Room, an archetype that can not be underestimated when it pushed Top 8. It is also in general a far less one-dimensional Pokemon with Follow Me and Trick Room. Again, Iron Crown still has the opportunity to sweep many teams and punishes those which aren't prepared, not a Pokemon to take lightly at all.

Dragonite from B+ -> B/B-

Dragonite has just fallen off a cliff, its hurt a lot more than Entei with the drop of priority spam as Entei doesn't rely on it and focuses on Sacred Fire. I do think Assault Vest Dragonite has some great matchups right now but with how many Pokemon want the item, I don't see it. This is simply not Dragonite 's meta as long as Indeedee and Farigiraf remain dominant.

Iron Hands and Landorus-T from B -> B+/A-

I know I mentioned the 5 tier drop but I think it still applies, Incineroar convinced everyone that Iron Hands was done, and if not, a 3 tier drop is still huge, I mean, look at Indeedee or Glimmora and then take a look at Flutter Mane or Ogerpon-Wellspring . But anyway, back to Brian , a standard Assault Vest set can take on the top 4 Pokemon, and 4 of the A tier Pokemon in a 1v1 just fine, having a great matchup into many A- and B+ Pokemon is notable as well. While it does struggle vs faster Incineroar long-term, the keyword is faster, with good speed investment, Iron Hands can consistently win the Fake Out war and get off a super-effective Drain Punch before it can Parting Shot. This is even more crucial when Incineroar lacks a way to recover the health, while Iron Hands can always reset the Intimidate drops. This is not even accounting for its second set, Clear Amulet, which turns Iron Hands into a great Trick Room damage dealer perfect with Farigiraf , made it all the way to 2nd place at Charlotte showing that both sets are great. Iron Hands already had higher usage than every B+ Pokemon, and Glimmora /Iron Crown at Liverpool. It was also approaching Indeedee and Landorus , it can only rise higher as an answer to Urshifu-S popping off.

Landorus-T I feel less strong about, but with how many teams are using different Fire-types, it finds itself in a nice spot on a lot of teams. Ground is still excellent offensively and the secondary Flying type compliments it all too well. Looking into the A tiers, Landorus-T has a good match-up into....pretty much everything? Lol. Intimidate and the aforementioned typing helps make this true, only really struggling against Icy wind Flutter Mane and if using Adamant, Scarf Urshifu-R . It does notably require Pokemon like Amoonguss to be chipped but being able to pivot in and exert so much pressure on the majority of these Pokemon, it's insane this is so low. Appreciates teams casually stacking 3 Flying Weaknesses like its nothing rn.

Less to say from here as I don't care as much about the Pokemon.

Regidrago , Pelipper, , Porygon2 , and Metagross from B- -> B

These are just much easier to build around in comparison to Volcarona or Iron Bundle , their teams just being more present right now. Also because there are no B tiers after I offered to move them up

Torkoal and Ursaluna from C+ -> B

Have been getting consistent results and are probably the most common Trick Room Pokemon after Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Psyspam is getting more and more popular, and both have found niches on Farigiraf and Porygon2 teams respectively. Torkoal tying Indeedee-F in day 2 usage stats is not something that can be ignored at least, nice Fire-type Trick Room teams can use and can pull its weight in a fast mode by helping Pokemon like Flutter Mane . Ursaluna makes a great partner, removing the Fire-types that can switch in on Eruption or Fairy SPAM.

Scream Tail and from C -> C+

Both have good results and serve much better niches than Pokemon like Walking Wake or Suicune, Cornerstone even having more usage than every other Ogerpon forme, showing its a great fit on Farigiraf-Torkoal teams.

Roaring Moon from UR -> B+

I know this looks like an insane rise, but Roaring Moon MUST have been missed. variants of Neil's balance team have been everywhere, both Dragon Dance and Tailwind variants being plenty viable and being almost equal in Liverpool Day 2 usage, which involved Roaring Moon as common as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Gholdengo . we're short on set-up sweepers and we have access to a lot of support from Incineroar and Wellspring alone. Another highlight of Flying coverage, It has such a great meta matchup and Roaring Moon is a great user of this. The tailwind set makes for a great speed control option, helping dominate slower team styles while still keeping the bulk Balance staples provide. Breaking Swipe damage control can really stack with Incineroar and allow for a lot of free turns to get off huge damage or position a win condition.


That'd be all! Great VR <3

 

[fyfyy]

Another VR, more broken fingers from Leo!

Incineroar from A+ -> S

Usage-wise, this Pokemon is not doing so well, as much as Urshifu and below Flutter Mane and Ogerpon-W, so the ranking would make sense at first glance, but there are more factors than splashibility to determine how viable a Pokemon is. Incineroar may compete with many fire types, 5 others being B+ or above, but what really makes it S tier, is its impact on the game. Incineroar can consistently be alive from start to finish and make a huge impact by simply switching in and out. It might not be able to take on Ogerpon-Wellspring or Raging Bolt , but it can mitigate their damage output with Intimidate and Parting Shot respectively. Incineroar can put in so much work simply switching in and out throughout the entire game that it rarely needs to Terastallize, making its meta matchup incredible. This, in particular, gives it an edge because Flutter Mane , usually lasts 2-4 turns on the field, quickly trading itself for huge damage if not for a kill. This means that if a Pokemon has a bad matchup into Flutter Mane, it's significantly easier to remove it, unlike if something has a bad matchup against Incineroar, where Incineroar will likely be on their side the entire game. We have examples of it already actually, think Iron Hands who dropped 5 tiers with the introduction of Incineroar , definitely not the only contributor but the major one.

Amoonguss from A -> A+

Amoonguss has just been a very consistent alternative to Ogerpon-Wellspring , and occasionally a good partner. Incineroar is definitely the perfect addition for it, a Fire-type with Knock Off is the perfect check to Amoonguss ' common answers. Amoonguss resisting Urshifu-R 's and Fluter Mane 's Fighting and Fairy STAB respectively is always a huge plus over Wellspring , especially when it can heal off the damage and come back to do it throughout the game. Similar to Incineroar in a sense, being able to bring an impact the majority of the game and Spore applying a lot of pressure, in the battle and the teambuilder. This is especially prevalent in balance mirrors as Amoonguss can single-handedly extend them with Spore and Pollen Puff. If balance mirrors were like chess, Amoonguss would easily be the king, you lose it, you pretty much lose the game.

Urshifu-R from A -> A+ or Urshifu-S from A+ -> A

I strongly believe the majority of Urshifu's usage is exploration and not an accurate representation of their viability, Urshifu-R puts so much strain on the team builder and forces teams to run Raging Bolt + Ogerpon-W , Spe Booster Flutter Mane + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Raging Bolt , and many of these checks with hard speed control like Tornadus , Farigiraf :Fraigiraf:, and Indeedee . This alone is fantastic, and then you realize it still beats the top 4, as well as half of the A and A- tiers when using its most common Scarf set. Urshifu-R should be on par with its Single-Strike counterpart from the teambuilding strain and how much more oppressive it can be, outspeeding and threatening OHKOs is a lotscarier than what Urshifu-S can do with a Focus Sash or Choice Band set. Not to mention its dominant set competes with Chien-Pao , another A tier.

Rillaboom :Rillaboom from A- -> A

Rillaboom is simply an incredible and consistent Pokemon with its offensive and supportive toolkit. I believe people were experimenting with other teams and new Pokemon, which is why its usage was so low, we can see that it made the top 12 graph at Liverpool and it can only go higher with Wolfe's 6 winning twice in a row. We can see that in the two recent 100+ player limitless tournaments Rillaboom is up with Tornadus and Urshifu as well. Hard to say anymore since Rillaboom is doing the same thing it was doing last regulation, relatively fast Fake Out pivot with a lot of offensive pressure in Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide.

Gholdengo , Ursaluna-B and Iron Crown from A- -> B+

The two just currently struggle too much in comparison to their A- counterparts. Gholdengo 's Choice Specs set has lost viability with the introduction of Steel resists in Incineroar and Raging Bolt , making it a lot less versatile, and it always has to compete with Flutter Mane on teams which is even harder now when the metagame has slowed down and become infested with Fire- and Dark-types, its sad that I can count so many poor matchups for Gholdengo from B+ and up. Definitely not any worse though, Gholdengo is still a deadly sweeper with the right support, and its typing brings crucial resistances, acting as a check to many Pokemon in one.

As for Ursaluna-B , it does not belong in the same tier as Farigiraf . Farigiraf is actually flexible in which teams it can go on, and went without an Ursaluna half the time at Liverpool, notably it ran a Trick Room mode with Torkoal Ogerpon-Cornerstone but it stands, Ursaluna-B simply fits on a lot less teams than Farigiraf, why even when we see Farigiraf hit 7th, Bloodmoon never makes it on the graph. The Trick Room teams are still deadly and make up a good portion of teams, don't think it is realistic for the Pokemon to drop any lower.

I think this case is very similar to Iron Crown 's, it relies on Indeedee but Indeedee always has the option to opt for Trick Room, an archetype that can not be underestimated when it pushed Top 8. It is also in general a far less one-dimensional Pokemon with Follow Me and Trick Room. Again, Iron Crown still has the opportunity to sweep many teams and punishes those which aren't prepared, not a Pokemon to take lightly at all.

Dragonite from B+ -> B/B-

Dragonite has just fallen off a cliff, its hurt a lot more than Entei with the drop of priority spam as Entei doesn't rely on it and focuses on Sacred Fire. I do think Assault Vest Dragonite has some great matchups right now but with how many Pokemon want the item, I don't see it. This is simply not Dragonite 's meta as long as Indeedee and Farigiraf remain dominant.

Iron Hands and Landorus-T from B -> B+/A-

I know I mentioned the 5 tier drop but I think it still applies, Incineroar convinced everyone that Iron Hands was done, and if not, a 3 tier drop is still huge, I mean, look at Indeedee or Glimmora and then take a look at Flutter Mane or Ogerpon-Wellspring . But anyway, back to Brian , a standard Assault Vest set can take on the top 4 Pokemon, and 4 of the A tier Pokemon in a 1v1 just fine, having a great matchup into many A- and B+ Pokemon is notable as well. While it does struggle vs faster Incineroar long-term, the keyword is faster, with good speed investment, Iron Hands can consistently win the Fake Out war and get off a super-effective Drain Punch before it can Parting Shot. This is even more crucial when Incineroar lacks a way to recover the health, while Iron Hands can always reset the Intimidate drops. This is not even accounting for its second set, Clear Amulet, which turns Iron Hands into a great Trick Room damage dealer perfect with Farigiraf , made it all the way to 2nd place at Charlotte showing that both sets are great. Iron Hands already had higher usage than every B+ Pokemon, and Glimmora /Iron Crown at Liverpool. It was also approaching Indeedee and Landorus , it can only rise higher as an answer to Urshifu-S popping off.

Landorus-T I feel less strong about, but with how many teams are using different Fire-types, it finds itself in a nice spot on a lot of teams. Ground is still excellent offensively and the secondary Flying type compliments it all too well. Looking into the A tiers, Landorus-T has a good match-up into....pretty much everything? Lol. Intimidate and the aforementioned typing helps make this true, only really struggling against Icy wind Flutter Mane and if using Adamant, Scarf Urshifu-R . It does notably require Pokemon like Amoonguss to be chipped but being able to pivot in and exert so much pressure on the majority of these Pokemon, it's insane this is so low. Appreciates teams casually stacking 3 Flying Weaknesses like its nothing rn.

Less to say from here as I don't care as much about the Pokemon.

Regidrago , Pelipper, , Porygon2 , and Metagross from B- -> B

These are just much easier to build around in comparison to Volcarona or Iron Bundle , their teams just being more present right now. Also because there are no B tiers after I offered to move them up

Torkoal and Ursaluna from C+ -> B

Have been getting consistent results and are probably the most common Trick Room Pokemon after Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Psyspam is getting more and more popular, and both have found niches on Farigiraf and Porygon2 teams respectively. Torkoal tying Indeedee-F in day 2 usage stats is not something that can be ignored at least, nice Fire-type Trick Room teams can use and can pull its weight in a fast mode by helping Pokemon like Flutter Mane . Ursaluna makes a great partner, removing the Fire-types that can switch in on Eruption or Fairy SPAM.

Scream Tail and from C -> C+

Both have good results and serve much better niches than Pokemon like Walking Wake or Suicune, Cornerstone even having more usage than every other Ogerpon forme, showing its a great fit on Farigiraf-Torkoal teams.

Roaring Moon :Roating Moon: from UR -> B+

I know this looks like an insane rise, but Roaring Moon MUST have been missed. variants of Neil's balance team have been everywhere, both Dragon Dance and Tailwind variants being plenty viable and being almost equal in Liverpool Day 2 usage, which involved Roaring Moon as common as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Gholdengo . we're short on set-up sweepers and we have access to a lot of support from Incineroar and Wellspring alone. Another highlight of Flying coverage, It has such a great meta matchup and Roaring Moon is a great user of this. The tailwind set makes for a great speed control option, helping dominate slower team styles while still keeping the bulk Balance staples provide. Breaking Swipe damage control can really stack with Incineroar and allow for a lot of free turns to get off huge damage or position a win condition.


That'd be all! Great VR <3

I pretty much agree with a lot of points Leo made though I would like to keep a few opinions from my side.
Incineroar is definitely S tier, Raging Bolt is good but not deserving of A Tier, Urshifu-R definitely belongs to the same tier as Urshifu-S, Rillaboom needs to go one tier higher, Gholdengo should be shifted to one tier lower, so does Ursaluna Bloodmoon and Iron Crown, Dragonite can go a tier lower, Iron Hands deserves to be in B+ tier, although I think Landorus-T is in the right tier. Regidrago, Pelipper and Poryyon2 should go one tier higher, Torkoal can go one tier higher and so does Scream Tail and Ogerpon-Cornerstone. Roaring Moon is a solid B+ Tier pokemon and has a really solid place in the meta.
That's it from my side, will go in more detail if required.

 

[Flarefox_7]

Another VR, more broken fingers from Leo!

Incineroar from A+ -> S

Usage-wise, this Pokemon is not doing so well, as much as Urshifu and below Flutter Mane and Ogerpon-W, so the ranking would make sense at first glance, but there are more factors than splashibility to determine how viable a Pokemon is. Incineroar may compete with many fire types, 5 others being B+ or above, but what really makes it S tier, is its impact on the game. Incineroar can consistently be alive from start to finish and make a huge impact by simply switching in and out. It might not be able to take on Ogerpon-Wellspring or Raging Bolt , but it can mitigate their damage output with Intimidate and Parting Shot respectively. Incineroar can put in so much work simply switching in and out throughout the entire game that it rarely needs to Terastallize, making its meta matchup incredible. This, in particular, gives it an edge because Flutter Mane , usually lasts 2-4 turns on the field, quickly trading itself for huge damage if not for a kill. This means that if a Pokemon has a bad matchup into Flutter Mane, it's significantly easier to remove it, unlike if something has a bad matchup against Incineroar, where Incineroar will likely be on their side the entire game. We have examples of it already actually, think Iron Hands who dropped 5 tiers with the introduction of Incineroar , definitely not the only contributor but the major one.

Amoonguss from A -> A+

Amoonguss has just been a very consistent alternative to Ogerpon-Wellspring , and occasionally a good partner. Incineroar is definitely the perfect addition for it, a Fire-type with Knock Off is the perfect check to Amoonguss ' common answers. Amoonguss resisting Urshifu-R 's and Fluter Mane 's Fighting and Fairy STAB respectively is always a huge plus over Wellspring , especially when it can heal off the damage and come back to do it throughout the game. Similar to Incineroar in a sense, being able to bring an impact the majority of the game and Spore applying a lot of pressure, in the battle and the teambuilder. This is especially prevalent in balance mirrors as Amoonguss can single-handedly extend them with Spore and Pollen Puff. If balance mirrors were like chess, Amoonguss would easily be the king, you lose it, you pretty much lose the game.

Urshifu-R from A -> A+ or Urshifu-S from A+ -> A

I strongly believe the majority of Urshifu's usage is exploration and not an accurate representation of their viability, Urshifu-R puts so much strain on the team builder and forces teams to run Raging Bolt + Ogerpon-W , Spe Booster Flutter Mane + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Raging Bolt , and many of these checks with hard speed control like Tornadus , Farigiraf :Fraigiraf:, and Indeedee . This alone is fantastic, and then you realize it still beats the top 4, as well as half of the A and A- tiers when using its most common Scarf set. Urshifu-R should be on par with its Single-Strike counterpart from the teambuilding strain and how much more oppressive it can be, outspeeding and threatening OHKOs is a lotscarier than what Urshifu-S can do with a Focus Sash or Choice Band set. Not to mention its dominant set competes with Chien-Pao , another A tier.

Rillaboom :Rillaboom from A- -> A

Rillaboom is simply an incredible and consistent Pokemon with its offensive and supportive toolkit. I believe people were experimenting with other teams and new Pokemon, which is why its usage was so low, we can see that it made the top 12 graph at Liverpool and it can only go higher with Wolfe's 6 winning twice in a row. We can see that in the two recent 100+ player limitless tournaments Rillaboom is up with Tornadus and Urshifu as well. Hard to say anymore since Rillaboom is doing the same thing it was doing last regulation, relatively fast Fake Out pivot with a lot of offensive pressure in Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide.

Gholdengo , Ursaluna-B and Iron Crown from A- -> B+

The two just currently struggle too much in comparison to their A- counterparts. Gholdengo 's Choice Specs set has lost viability with the introduction of Steel resists in Incineroar and Raging Bolt , making it a lot less versatile, and it always has to compete with Flutter Mane on teams which is even harder now when the metagame has slowed down and become infested with Fire- and Dark-types, its sad that I can count so many poor matchups for Gholdengo from B+ and up. Definitely not any worse though, Gholdengo is still a deadly sweeper with the right support, and its typing brings crucial resistances, acting as a check to many Pokemon in one.

As for Ursaluna-B , it does not belong in the same tier as Farigiraf . Farigiraf is actually flexible in which teams it can go on, and went without an Ursaluna half the time at Liverpool, notably it ran a Trick Room mode with Torkoal Ogerpon-Cornerstone but it stands, Ursaluna-B simply fits on a lot less teams than Farigiraf, why even when we see Farigiraf hit 7th, Bloodmoon never makes it on the graph. The Trick Room teams are still deadly and make up a good portion of teams, don't think it is realistic for the Pokemon to drop any lower.

I think this case is very similar to Iron Crown 's, it relies on Indeedee but Indeedee always has the option to opt for Trick Room, an archetype that can not be underestimated when it pushed Top 8. It is also in general a far less one-dimensional Pokemon with Follow Me and Trick Room. Again, Iron Crown still has the opportunity to sweep many teams and punishes those which aren't prepared, not a Pokemon to take lightly at all.

Dragonite from B+ -> B/B-

Dragonite has just fallen off a cliff, its hurt a lot more than Entei with the drop of priority spam as Entei doesn't rely on it and focuses on Sacred Fire. I do think Assault Vest Dragonite has some great matchups right now but with how many Pokemon want the item, I don't see it. This is simply not Dragonite 's meta as long as Indeedee and Farigiraf remain dominant.

Iron Hands and Landorus-T from B -> B+/A-

I know I mentioned the 5 tier drop but I think it still applies, Incineroar convinced everyone that Iron Hands was done, and if not, a 3 tier drop is still huge, I mean, look at Indeedee or Glimmora and then take a look at Flutter Mane or Ogerpon-Wellspring . But anyway, back to Brian , a standard Assault Vest set can take on the top 4 Pokemon, and 4 of the A tier Pokemon in a 1v1 just fine, having a great matchup into many A- and B+ Pokemon is notable as well. While it does struggle vs faster Incineroar long-term, the keyword is faster, with good speed investment, Iron Hands can consistently win the Fake Out war and get off a super-effective Drain Punch before it can Parting Shot. This is even more crucial when Incineroar lacks a way to recover the health, while Iron Hands can always reset the Intimidate drops. This is not even accounting for its second set, Clear Amulet, which turns Iron Hands into a great Trick Room damage dealer perfect with Farigiraf , made it all the way to 2nd place at Charlotte showing that both sets are great. Iron Hands already had higher usage than every B+ Pokemon, and Glimmora /Iron Crown at Liverpool. It was also approaching Indeedee and Landorus , it can only rise higher as an answer to Urshifu-S popping off.

Landorus-T I feel less strong about, but with how many teams are using different Fire-types, it finds itself in a nice spot on a lot of teams. Ground is still excellent offensively and the secondary Flying type compliments it all too well. Looking into the A tiers, Landorus-T has a good match-up into....pretty much everything? Lol. Intimidate and the aforementioned typing helps make this true, only really struggling against Icy wind Flutter Mane and if using Adamant, Scarf Urshifu-R . It does notably require Pokemon like Amoonguss to be chipped but being able to pivot in and exert so much pressure on the majority of these Pokemon, it's insane this is so low. Appreciates teams casually stacking 3 Flying Weaknesses like its nothing rn.

Less to say from here as I don't care as much about the Pokemon.

Regidrago , Pelipper, , Porygon2 , and Metagross from B- -> B

These are just much easier to build around in comparison to Volcarona or Iron Bundle , their teams just being more present right now. Also because there are no B tiers after I offered to move them up

Torkoal and Ursaluna from C+ -> B

Have been getting consistent results and are probably the most common Trick Room Pokemon after Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Psyspam is getting more and more popular, and both have found niches on Farigiraf and Porygon2 teams respectively. Torkoal tying Indeedee-F in day 2 usage stats is not something that can be ignored at least, nice Fire-type Trick Room teams can use and can pull its weight in a fast mode by helping Pokemon like Flutter Mane . Ursaluna makes a great partner, removing the Fire-types that can switch in on Eruption or Fairy SPAM.

Scream Tail and from C -> C+

Both have good results and serve much better niches than Pokemon like Walking Wake or Suicune, Cornerstone even having more usage than every other Ogerpon forme, showing its a great fit on Farigiraf-Torkoal teams.

Roaring Moon from UR -> B+

I know this looks like an insane rise, but Roaring Moon MUST have been missed. variants of Neil's balance team have been everywhere, both Dragon Dance and Tailwind variants being plenty viable and being almost equal in Liverpool Day 2 usage, which involved Roaring Moon as common as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Gholdengo . we're short on set-up sweepers and we have access to a lot of support from Incineroar and Wellspring alone. Another highlight of Flying coverage, It has such a great meta matchup and Roaring Moon is a great user of this. The tailwind set makes for a great speed control option, helping dominate slower team styles while still keeping the bulk Balance staples provide. Breaking Swipe damage control can really stack with Incineroar and allow for a lot of free turns to get off huge damage or position a win condition.


That'd be all! Great VR <3

I agree with almost everything that you have said, except I think Amoonguss is fine in A, there are a lot of grass types like Ogerpon-Wellspring , Ogerpon-Hearthflame , and Rillaboom . I also think that Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Iron Crown can stay in A-, but I think Gholdengo should move down, just because it has not seen much play and it has not gotten many results up to this point. Finally, I think Lando-T and Iron Hands can stay in B, I think they will get better as the format progresses, but at the time of writing this, I don't think they have not seen enough play and enough results to be in B+/A-.

 

[Robbie35646]

Another VR, more broken fingers from Leo!

Incineroar from A+ -> S

Usage-wise, this Pokemon is not doing so well, as much as Urshifu and below Flutter Mane and Ogerpon-W, so the ranking would make sense at first glance, but there are more factors than splashibility to determine how viable a Pokemon is. Incineroar may compete with many fire types, 5 others being B+ or above, but what really makes it S tier, is its impact on the game. Incineroar can consistently be alive from start to finish and make a huge impact by simply switching in and out. It might not be able to take on Ogerpon-Wellspring or Raging Bolt , but it can mitigate their damage output with Intimidate and Parting Shot respectively. Incineroar can put in so much work simply switching in and out throughout the entire game that it rarely needs to Terastallize, making its meta matchup incredible. This, in particular, gives it an edge because Flutter Mane , usually lasts 2-4 turns on the field, quickly trading itself for huge damage if not for a kill. This means that if a Pokemon has a bad matchup into Flutter Mane, it's significantly easier to remove it, unlike if something has a bad matchup against Incineroar, where Incineroar will likely be on their side the entire game. We have examples of it already actually, think Iron Hands who dropped 5 tiers with the introduction of Incineroar , definitely not the only contributor but the major one.

Amoonguss from A -> A+

Amoonguss has just been a very consistent alternative to Ogerpon-Wellspring , and occasionally a good partner. Incineroar is definitely the perfect addition for it, a Fire-type with Knock Off is the perfect check to Amoonguss ' common answers. Amoonguss resisting Urshifu-R 's and Fluter Mane 's Fighting and Fairy STAB respectively is always a huge plus over Wellspring , especially when it can heal off the damage and come back to do it throughout the game. Similar to Incineroar in a sense, being able to bring an impact the majority of the game and Spore applying a lot of pressure, in the battle and the teambuilder. This is especially prevalent in balance mirrors as Amoonguss can single-handedly extend them with Spore and Pollen Puff. If balance mirrors were like chess, Amoonguss would easily be the king, you lose it, you pretty much lose the game.

Urshifu-R from A -> A+ or Urshifu-S from A+ -> A

I strongly believe the majority of Urshifu's usage is exploration and not an accurate representation of their viability, Urshifu-R puts so much strain on the team builder and forces teams to run Raging Bolt + Ogerpon-W , Spe Booster Flutter Mane + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Raging Bolt , and many of these checks with hard speed control like Tornadus , Farigiraf , and Indeedee . This alone is fantastic, and then you realize it still beats the top 4, as well as half of the A and A- tiers when using its most common Scarf set. Urshifu-R should be on par with its Single-Strike counterpart from the teambuilding strain and how much more oppressive it can be, outspeeding and threatening OHKOs is a lotscarier than what Urshifu-S can do with a Focus Sash or Choice Band set. Not to mention its dominant set competes with Chien-Pao , another A tier.

Rillaboom :Rillaboom from A- -> A

Rillaboom is simply an incredible and consistent Pokemon with its offensive and supportive toolkit. I believe people were experimenting with other teams and new Pokemon, which is why its usage was so low, we can see that it made the top 12 graph at Liverpool and it can only go higher with Wolfe's 6 winning twice in a row. We can see that in the two recent 100+ player limitless tournaments Rillaboom is up with Tornadus and Urshifu as well. Hard to say anymore since Rillaboom is doing the same thing it was doing last regulation, relatively fast Fake Out pivot with a lot of offensive pressure in Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide.

Gholdengo , Ursaluna-B and Iron Crown from A- -> B+

The two just currently struggle too much in comparison to their A- counterparts. Gholdengo 's Choice Specs set has lost viability with the introduction of Steel resists in Incineroar and Raging Bolt , making it a lot less versatile, and it always has to compete with Flutter Mane on teams which is even harder now when the metagame has slowed down and become infested with Fire- and Dark-types, its sad that I can count so many poor matchups for Gholdengo from B+ and up. Definitely not any worse though, Gholdengo is still a deadly sweeper with the right support, and its typing brings crucial resistances, acting as a check to many Pokemon in one.

As for Ursaluna-B , it does not belong in the same tier as Farigiraf . Farigiraf is actually flexible in which teams it can go on, and went without an Ursaluna half the time at Liverpool, notably it ran a Trick Room mode with Torkoal Ogerpon-Cornerstone but it stands, Ursaluna-B simply fits on a lot less teams than Farigiraf, why even when we see Farigiraf hit 7th, Bloodmoon never makes it on the graph. The Trick Room teams are still deadly and make up a good portion of teams, don't think it is realistic for the Pokemon to drop any lower.

I think this case is very similar to Iron Crown 's, it relies on Indeedee but Indeedee always has the option to opt for Trick Room, an archetype that can not be underestimated when it pushed Top 8. It is also in general a far less one-dimensional Pokemon with Follow Me and Trick Room. Again, Iron Crown still has the opportunity to sweep many teams and punishes those which aren't prepared, not a Pokemon to take lightly at all.

Dragonite from B+ -> B/B-

Dragonite has just fallen off a cliff, its hurt a lot more than Entei with the drop of priority spam as Entei doesn't rely on it and focuses on Sacred Fire. I do think Assault Vest Dragonite has some great matchups right now but with how many Pokemon want the item, I don't see it. This is simply not Dragonite 's meta as long as Indeedee and Farigiraf remain dominant.

Iron Hands and Landorus-T from B -> B+/A-

I know I mentioned the 5 tier drop but I think it still applies, Incineroar convinced everyone that Iron Hands was done, and if not, a 3 tier drop is still huge, I mean, look at Indeedee or Glimmora and then take a look at Flutter Mane or Ogerpon-Wellspring . But anyway, back to Brian , a standard Assault Vest set can take on the top 4 Pokemon, and 4 of the A tier Pokemon in a 1v1 just fine, having a great matchup into many A- and B+ Pokemon is notable as well. While it does struggle vs faster Incineroar long-term, the keyword is faster, with good speed investment, Iron Hands can consistently win the Fake Out war and get off a super-effective Drain Punch before it can Parting Shot. This is even more crucial when Incineroar lacks a way to recover the health, while Iron Hands can always reset the Intimidate drops. This is not even accounting for its second set, Clear Amulet, which turns Iron Hands into a great Trick Room damage dealer perfect with Farigiraf , made it all the way to 2nd place at Charlotte showing that both sets are great. Iron Hands already had higher usage than every B+ Pokemon, and Glimmora /Iron Crown at Liverpool. It was also approaching Indeedee and Landorus , it can only rise higher as an answer to Urshifu-S popping off.

Landorus-T I feel less strong about, but with how many teams are using different Fire-types, it finds itself in a nice spot on a lot of teams. Ground is still excellent offensively and the secondary Flying type compliments it all too well. Looking into the A tiers, Landorus-T has a good match-up into....pretty much everything? Lol. Intimidate and the aforementioned typing helps make this true, only really struggling against Icy wind Flutter Mane and if using Adamant, Scarf Urshifu-R . It does notably require Pokemon like Amoonguss to be chipped but being able to pivot in and exert so much pressure on the majority of these Pokemon, it's insane this is so low. Appreciates teams casually stacking 3 Flying Weaknesses like its nothing rn.

Less to say from here as I don't care as much about the Pokemon.

Regidrago , Pelipper, , Porygon2 , and Metagross from B- -> B

These are just much easier to build around in comparison to Volcarona or Iron Bundle , their teams just being more present right now. Also because there are no B tiers after I offered to move them up

Torkoal and Ursaluna from C+ -> B

Have been getting consistent results and are probably the most common Trick Room Pokemon after Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Psyspam is getting more and more popular, and both have found niches on Farigiraf and Porygon2 teams respectively. Torkoal tying Indeedee-F in day 2 usage stats is not something that can be ignored at least, nice Fire-type Trick Room teams can use and can pull its weight in a fast mode by helping Pokemon like Flutter Mane . Ursaluna makes a great partner, removing the Fire-types that can switch in on Eruption or Fairy SPAM.

Scream Tail and from C -> C+

Both have good results and serve much better niches than Pokemon like Walking Wake or Suicune, Cornerstone even having more usage than every other Ogerpon forme, showing its a great fit on Farigiraf-Torkoal teams.

Roaring Moon from UR -> B+

I know this looks like an insane rise, but Roaring Moon MUST have been missed. variants of Neil's balance team have been everywhere, both Dragon Dance and Tailwind variants being plenty viable and being almost equal in Liverpool Day 2 usage, which involved Roaring Moon as common as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Gholdengo . we're short on set-up sweepers and we have access to a lot of support from Incineroar and Wellspring alone. Another highlight of Flying coverage, It has such a great meta matchup and Roaring Moon is a great user of this. The tailwind set makes for a great speed control option, helping dominate slower team styles while still keeping the bulk Balance staples provide. Breaking Swipe damage control can really stack with Incineroar and allow for a lot of free turns to get off huge damage or position a win condition.


That'd be all! Great VR <3

Not speaking for the council here ftr:

- lots of this match my personal votes
- this will not really go into your points just summarize my personal thoughts very briefly

I agree and think putting this guy below A+ is lowkey criminal, Amoonguss gets underrated at the beginning of every format and then proves itsself to be a top 5 mon in the end, not sure why we keep repeating that.

Yeah no... i think he should rise if anything (I have him in S), Urshifu-R is way more niche and fits only on certain archetypes / with specific partners while Darkfu gets slapped on any team with the other S-tier's and just farms when given any speed control (Icy Wind Flutter) and is also really underexplored on slower balance teams with bulkier Tera Poison sets that were common in earlier formats

I think A+ is fine, he's insane on the team he fits on but not as broken as the insane core of Ogerpon-W Flutter Mane Urshifu that can be slapped onto any archetype and can also just be the base of a team.


Voted B on this because Dragonite is falling off quite hard, but B- would be way too harsh

+ +
I voted B+ on all of these, BM and Iron Crown feel like they should be a tier below their partners (though Iron Crown is fine in A- honestly), Gholdengo im really not a fan of, it doesn't actually beat any top cores imo, Tera Fairy on offensive Pokemon is just really strong right now but it needs so much commitment just to make minor progress and it often replaces Flutter Mane on teams when Flutter requires both less support and is more threatening for the top Pokemon. (Raging Bolt, Incin, Waterpon all resist Make It Rain and deal notable damage back while Urshifu and Flutter Mane force it to tera)

+ +
I definitively think P2 should be B-tier and can see Pelipper / Regidrago in either honestly


I think Torkoal should be given B-, B is a stretch though


100% agree on this


Good nom, prob should be B- / C+, nowhere near B+ though


Rilla has a tough time competing with Ogerpon-W for the physical Grass-type slot, what used to be common partners like Gholdengo, Urshifu-R, Arcanine-H and Heatran falling off also sucks for Rilla, doesnt fit on enough archetypes to put it anywhere above A- currently imo

+
I really cant see this, they're good mons but both very hard to justify over Incineroar and kinda just unemployed, B is perfect for them

 

[flutterfan]

Viability Rankings have finally dropped. I’m very happy about this as I can finally go in depth about the meta.

Rapid Strike to A-:

There‘s just a lot of counters to it in the current meta. Raging Bolt, Flutter, Horn Leech from Pon, Eforce if you don’t Tera, etc. It just doesn’t do well into the current meta and Water/Fighting is also just not a very good typing in the current meta. Sure, you also beat Incin, but Incin can Tera defensively. And while it has won the past 2 Reg F regionals, it was on the exact same team. It looks like Wolfes Charlotte team is the best it can fit at the current time.

to B+:

This is honestly the best that Torkoal has been in Gen 9 so far. Eruption is so strong. It’s one of the best TR sweepers in the game. And it can also set up the sun for mons like and to abuse. It just barely missed out on the Top 12 usage at Liverpool, showing that it’s starting to pick up and people should have counters for it.

to A:

I don’t understand why Farigiraf won 2 regionals and people still aren’t considering it to be a Top 6 Pokémon in the current meta. Sure, you get destroyed by Urshifu Single Strike. But that’s one of the only bad matchups that you have in the meta. It’s great against Priority spam, it’s great against Trick Room, it’s even great against Booster Speed Flutter! Come on council, pull some strings and get the giraffe in A tier.

to B+:

This Pokémon has been INSANE in my experience. Its damage is just unmatched among Ice types and possibly even Dragon types. I literally just click Ice Shard and Bax is still doing good chunks. I think people should be preparing for Baxcaliburs great damage output, and it’s 2nd place at Liverpool proves that.

Anyways, these are my thoughts on the VRs. Feel free to respond, both agreement and disagreement is appreciated.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Robbie

Not speaking for the council here ftr:

- lots of this match my personal votes
- this will not really go into your points just summarize my personal thoughts very briefly

I agree and think putting this guy below A+ is lowkey criminal, Amoonguss gets underrated at the beginning of every format and then proves itsself to be a top 5 mon in the end, not sure why we keep repeating that.


Voted B on this because Dragonite is falling off quite hard, but B- would be way too harsh

+ +
I voted B+ on all of these, BM and Iron Crown feel like they should be a tier below their partners (though Iron Crown is fine in A- honestly), Gholdengo im really not a fan of, it doesn't actually beat any top cores imo, Tera Fairy on offensive Pokemon is just really strong right now but it needs so much commitment just to make minor progress and it often replaces Flutter Mane on teams when Flutter requires both less support and is more threatening for the top Pokemon. (Raging Bolt, Incin, Waterpon all resist Make It Rain and deal notable damage back while Urshifu and Flutter Mane force it to tera)

+ +
I definitively think P2 should be B-tier and can see Pelipper / Regidrago in either honestly


100% agree on this

Based Robbie

Yeah no... i think he should rise if anything (I have him in S), Urshifu-R is way more niche and fits only on certain archetypes / with specific partners while Darkfu gets slapped on any team with the other S-tier's and just farms when given any speed control (Icy Wind Flutter) and is also really underexplored on slower balance teams with bulkier Tera Poison sets that were common in earlier formats

I think A+ is fine, he's insane on the team he fits on but not as broken as the insane core of Ogerpon-W Flutter Mane Urshifu that can be slapped onto any archetype and can also just be the base of a team.

I can't see where you're coming from honestly, Urshifu only had more usage than Incineroar after the disqualifications, while Incineroar tied it taking into account every team that made 7-2. Incineroar feels a lot closer to the slappable S-tiers because of how much support Urshifu demands, why it's often with heavy speed control partners, and pressured into running Focus Sash. These combined and then taking into account how much more of an impact Incineroar can make on a game (Pivot that lasts the entire game vs Focus Sash Pokemon.), really show why Incineroar belongs above Urshifu-S if not up there with Wellspring and Flutter Mane . I also find it a lot less scary than Urshifu-R because it requires repositioning and isn't problematic if you eliminated/countered their speed control, while Urshifu-R doesn't need dedicated support and can be an immediate threat with Choice Scarf, really the only reason usage dropped was exploration and competition with Wellspring , but Urshifu-S competes with plenty of Pokemon as it is. It's hard for me to understand the two aren't at least in the same tier.

I think Torkoal should be given B-, B is a stretch though

This is fair, I heard EU was running a lot of TR so that may be why it got a lot of usage.

Good nom, prob should be B- / C+, nowhere near B+ though

I can see B- later on, but right now where there is little preparation for it, I see it as a very strong and respectable Pokemon.

Rilla has a tough time competing with Ogerpon-W for the physical Grass-type slot, what used to be common partners like Gholdengo, Urshifu-R, Arcanine-H and Heatran falling off also sucks for Rilla, doesnt fit on enough archetypes to put it anywhere above A- currently imo.

Honestly disagree, Rillaboom can fit in with Ogerpon-W well as they create a Fake Out + Redirection duo and have different roles. Almost half of Day 2 Rillaboom liverpool teams had an Ogerpon-W :Ogerpon-W: and in a larger sample size, more than half within the Top 256. I get that some of its partners are falling out of favor but that's because they've been replaced with new partners, think Incineroar , Gouging Fire , Kingambit , Raging Bolt , etc.

+
I really cant see this, they're good mons but both very hard to justify over Incineroar and kinda just unemployed, B is perfect for them

Their insane meta matchup speaks for itself, and I'd argue they have a much easier time justifying themselves over Arcanine-H , which competes with Incineroar both Ability and typing wise, the other 2 can at least splash into teams involving other Fire-types relatively well. Iron Hands ' case is especially strong as it can run the set of Trick Room sweeper or straight-up partner with Incineroar , represented in a few day 2 teams. Made the call to move them up rather than move Arcanine down because I noticed other Fire-types that don't synergize with Incineroar (Entei , Gouging Fire ), makes sense to put these two up with them if not above when they're better Pokemon with the same issue.

Now as for Flutterfan's, somehow disagreed with every nom but I don't mean to attack you in anyway!

Flutterfan

Viability Rankings have finally dropped. I’m very happy about this as I can finally go in depth about the meta.

Rapid Strike to A-:

There‘s just a lot of counters to it in the current meta. Raging Bolt, Flutter, Horn Leech from Pon, Eforce if you don’t Tera, etc. It just doesn’t do well into the current meta and Water/Fighting is also just not a very good typing in the current meta. Sure, you also beat Incin, but Incin can Tera defensively. And while it has won the past 2 Reg F regionals, it was on the exact same team. It looks like Wolfes Charlotte team is the best it can fit at the current time.

to A:

I don’t understand why Farigiraf won 2 regionals and people still aren’t considering it to be a Top 6 Pokémon in the current meta. Sure, you get destroyed by Urshifu Single Strike. But that’s one of the only bad matchups that you have in the meta. It’s great against Priority spam, it’s great against Trick Room, it’s even great against Booster Speed Flutter! Come on council, pull some strings and get the giraffe in A tier.

Putting these two together because I think they're best compared, but I really do not get this at all. Winning 2 regionals mean Farigiraf must be a top 6 Pokemon, but Urshifu-R winning the same regionals is meh, because it was on the exact same team....just like Farigiraf ? Farigiraf is great against these pretty rare compositions sure, but Urshifu-R is great into every other Flutter Mane , OHKOs Urshifu and Chien-Pao through Focus Sash, handles Incineroar , can U-turn Wellspring for 50%, and pressures half the A- tier. Sure you have weaknesses, but are we not going to talk about how Farigiraf also struggles against the plethora of fantastic Ghost- and Dark-types? Farigiraf struggles to have obvious good matchups, as it's a support Pokemon, It also doesn't exactly stop Iron Crown from nuking and only prevents TR Psyspam, the less popular variant.

Farigiraf is just a lot more limited in use than Urshifu-R with its whole Trick Room idea and being, in comparison, a pretty passive Pokemon. Urshifu-R finds viability on Tornadus HO, Balance, Rain, and Iron Crown Psyspam respectively

to B+:

This is honestly the best that Torkoal has been in Gen 9 so far. Eruption is so strong. It’s one of the best TR sweepers in the game. And it can also set up the sun for mons like and to abuse. It just barely missed out on the Top 12 usage at Liverpool, showing that it’s starting to pick up and people should have counters for it.

Just, ? Gouging Fire has strictly been a supportive Pokemon with Howl because of its dissapointing damage output against any of our Fire resists, outclassed as a set-up sweeper and as a nuke in sun as well. I do think B+ is a stretch as Psyspam and Farigiraf TR is in general not that good to me, the best ones using Fast modes. the omnipresence of Rain Dance Tornadus and aforementioned Fire resists make me hesitant to put it so high.

to B+:

This Pokémon has been INSANE in my experience. Its damage is just unmatched among Ice types and possibly even Dragon types. I literally just click Ice Shard and Bax is still doing good chunks. I think people should be preparing for Baxcaliburs great damage output, and it’s 2nd place at Liverpool proves that.

Anyways, these are my thoughts on the VRs. Feel free to respond, both agreement and disagreement is appreciated.

Really? Chien-Pao and Raging Bolt objectively output more damage unless you get up a Swords Dance. Which then you'll be forced into using one of Ice Shard and actual Ice-STAB. I find the Pokemon a little too niche looking at the current metagame, loses to a good amount of Pokemon and hates the rise in viable Fires and Tera Fairy.

 

[flutterfan]

Robbie

Based Robbie



I can't see where you're coming from honestly, Urshifu only had more usage than Incineroar after the disqualifications, while Incineroar tied it taking into account every team that made 7-2. Incineroar feels a lot closer to the slappable S-tiers because of how much support Urshifu demands, why it's often with heavy speed control partners, and pressured into running Focus Sash. These combined and then taking into account how much more of an impact Incineroar can make on a game (Pivot that lasts the entire game vs Focus Sash Pokemon.), really show why Incineroar belongs above Urshifu-S if not up there with Wellspring and Flutter Mane . I also find it a lot less scary than Urshifu-R because it requires repositioning and isn't problematic if you eliminated/countered their speed control, while Urshifu-R doesn't need dedicated support and can be an immediate threat with Choice Scarf, really the only reason usage dropped was exploration and competition with Wellspring , but Urshifu-S competes with plenty of Pokemon as it is. It's hard for me to understand the two aren't at least in the same tier.



This is fair, I heard EU was running a lot of TR so that may be why it got a lot of usage.



I can see B- later on, but right now where there is little preparation for it, I see it as a very strong and respectable Pokemon.


Honestly disagree, Rillaboom can fit in with Ogerpon-W well as they create a Fake Out + Redirection duo and have different roles. Almost half of Day 2 Rillaboom liverpool teams had an Ogerpon-W :Ogerpon-W: and in a larger sample size, more than half within the Top 256. I get that some of its partners are falling out of favor but that's because they've been replaced with new partners, think Incineroar , Gouging Fire , Kingambit , Raging Bolt , etc.



Their insane meta matchup speaks for itself, and I'd argue they have a much easier time justifying themselves over Arcanine-H , which competes with Incineroar both Ability and typing wise, the other 2 can at least splash into teams involving other Fire-types relatively well. Iron Hands ' case is especially strong as it can run the set of Trick Room sweeper or straight-up partner with Incineroar , represented in a few day 2 teams. Made the call to move them up rather than move Arcanine down because I noticed other Fire-types that don't synergize with Incineroar (Entei , Gouging Fire ), makes sense to put these two up with them if not above when they're better Pokemon with the same issue.

Now as for Flutterfan's, somehow disagreed with every nom but I don't mean to attack you in anyway!

Flutterfan

Putting these two together because I think they're best compared, but I really do not get this at all. Winning 2 regionals mean Farigiraf must be a top 6 Pokemon, but Urshifu-R winning the same regionals is meh, because it was on the exact same team....just like Farigiraf ? Farigiraf is great against these pretty rare compositions sure, but Urshifu-R is great into every other Flutter Mane , OHKOs Urshifu and Chien-Pao through Focus Sash, handles Incineroar , can U-turn Wellspring for 50%, and pressures half the A- tier. Sure you have weaknesses, but are we not going to talk about how Farigiraf also struggles against the plethora of fantastic Ghost- and Dark-types? Farigiraf struggles to have obvious good matchups, as it's a support Pokemon, It also doesn't exactly stop Iron Crown from nuking and only prevents TR Psyspam, the less popular variant.

Farigiraf is just a lot more limited in use than Urshifu-R with its whole Trick Room idea and being, in comparison, a pretty passive Pokemon. Urshifu-R finds viability on Tornadus HO, Balance, Rain, and Iron Crown Psyspam respectively



Just, ? Gouging Fire has strictly been a supportive Pokemon with Howl because of its dissapointing damage output against any of our Fire resists, outclassed as a set-up sweeper and as a nuke in sun as well. I do think B+ is a stretch as Psyspam and Farigiraf TR is in general not that good to me, the best ones using Fast modes. the omnipresence of Rain Dance Tornadus and aforementioned Fire resists make me hesitant to put it so high.



Really? Chien-Pao and Raging Bolt objectively output more damage unless you get up a Swords Dance. Which then you'll be forced into using one of Ice Shard and actual Ice-STAB. I find the Pokemon a little too niche looking at the current metagame, loses to a good amount of Pokemon and hates the rise in viable Fires and Tera Fairy.

You somehow forgot that Farigiraf is Normal type, meaning that it is not affected by Ghost types.
Also, even though you said that you didn’t mean to attack me, I still felt attacked. Probably NO ONE agrees with you about Urshifu RS rising to A+. If anything, it should fall. Torkoal can hold Eject Pack and Overheat(even though you should probably be running Charcoal) to reset the sun if Torn or Peli is on the field, Bax can Tera Poison. Raging Bolts damage output has always been incredibly poor to me and Pao, despite Sword of Ruin, is the same thing.

 

[LovelyLuna]

You somehow forgot that Farigiraf is Normal type, meaning that it is not affected by Ghost types.
Also, even though you said that you didn’t mean to attack me, I still felt attacked. Probably NO ONE agrees with you about Urshifu RS rising to A+. If anything, it should fall. Torkoal can hold Eject Pack and Overheat(even though you should probably be running Charcoal) to reset the sun if Torn or Peli is on the field, Bax can Tera Poison. Raging Bolts damage output has always been incredibly poor to me and Pao, despite Sword of Ruin, is the same thing.

Really sorry then, it's just how I argue a lot of the time. Find plainly stating points a little ineffective.

It's less that Farigiraf isn't effected by them, but has a much harder time setting it, Tera Ghost mon + Flutter Mane has gave me a clean turn 1 too many times, and even ignoring that, Flutter Mane does ridiculous amounts of damage to anything, and Gholdengo walls everything Farigiraf would think of running, so the two relevant Ghost-types are good against it.

I don't care if everyone disagrees with my Urshifu-R take, I'm happy to accept it doesn't deserve to rise if I've been convinced otherwise. I was just pointing out how you brought up Farigiraf winning 2 regionals in a row, but chose to ignore the rest of Wolfe's team and even suggested Urshifu-R move down.

I don't think I've seen Eject Pack Overheat much ever since HOME. It's because Torkoal is generally outclassed by Tornadus and Whimsicott as a sun setter, Tailwind being such a fantastic move. All of the Torkoal teams that succeeded used the Pokemon as an offensive threat, with either Farigiraf or Indeedee as partners. When switching in and out you also burn Trick Room turns and drop something like Heat Wave.

Baxcalibur is iffy to me, being so slow and weak to so much makes it a huge Tera hog, and I don't think it's fair to bring that up for every bad mu. I.e: Urshifu-R just Tera Grass's vs Raging Bolt , Amoonguss , and Rillaboom . If you run Booster Energy Raging Bolt , your Dragon Pulse is hitting harder than Baxcalibur 's Glaive Rush (Assuming you're running Clear Amulet.). Chien-Pao 's Sword of Ruin actually make its base Attack over 170!

 

[Choruto]

You somehow forgot that Farigiraf is Normal type, meaning that it is not affected by Ghost types.
Also, even though you said that you didn’t mean to attack me, I still felt attacked. Probably NO ONE agrees with you about Urshifu RS rising to A+. If anything, it should fall.

Please chill. This is all in good fun, no one is that upset over someone else's opinion being different, and im sure they aren't trying to trash your take just presenting their view point. They literally said they are open to other opinions and just sharing theirs
If you think your being personally attacked, you can tell them politely, no need to be a dick about it with the capitals and shitting on their argument with a "No one cares L"
Also, I agree with them, Im sure a lot of people do. Again, chill

 

[flutterfan]

Please chill. This is all in good fun, no one is that upset over someone else's opinion being different, and im sure they aren't trying to trash your take just presenting their view point. They literally said they are open to other opinions and just sharing theirs
If you think your being personally attacked, you can tell them politely, no need to be a dick about it with the capitals and shitting on their argument with a "No one cares L"
Also, I agree with them, Im sure a lot of people do. Again, chill

Sorry about that. I tend to get a little annoyed when I feel personally attacked. It’s just a game, there’s no reason to personally attack someone over what bear is better than the other or if a giraffe is one of the best things in the game.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

That quick diffusion of tension was nice to read, I love everyone’s passion and reflections here and glad this is ultimately a really supportive thread. Thanks all for making me feel welcome with my first couple of VGC posts.

I’m experimenting with Gapdos at the moment and really enjoying it. Fantastic dual STAB combination, synergises very well with other physical attackers thanks to the effect of Thunderous Kick, and is bulky enough to be able to be EV’d to live some nasty stuff. The typing, whilst vulnerable to some common attacking types and in particular Flutter Mane, also has some defensive quirks like resisting both of Urshifu-S STABS. It also has utility in Tailwind and Coaching + is anti-Intimidate, so it doesn’t just have to run an aggro build. I don’t bring it to every game but there are some games it feels like it auto wins.

I’m also running double redirection which is feeling absolutely nuts on ladder. It’s always been valuable to have some form of it, but between Indeedee-F and Ogerpon-W I tend to always have something that can cover an opponents threatening positioning to protect my own heavy hitters. Ogerpon-W also goes hard with the Coaching Gapdos I mentioned above.

Indeedee-F is also really good as it deters prio spam, though I am confident that prio spam will continue to fall out of favour anyway with the rise of hoodie giraffe.

Looking forward to the streams this weekend!

 

[Topperzecat]

It is now time for my expert opinion on this tier list.

First off, I STRONGLY believe that incineroar should be S tier. Fake out is such an amazing tool, and in combination with parting shot and intimidate, it very easily pivots out on most of the metagame and in combination with ogerpon wellspring, things like urshifu rapid strike which may otherwise cause problems for it now cannot freely click surging strikes or other strong super effective moves into incineroar. I think incineroar is only going to become stronger as the format progresses. We have already seen that urshifu rapid strike is falling off, especially at high level play and urshifu is one of the pokemon that threatens incineroar the most. Incineroar is not only an incredibly splashable pokemon on team archetypes such as balance and even things like trick room and tailwind, but it also prevents huge attackers from running over the metagame. For instance, flutter mane does not enjoy taking parting shots and with the amount of bulk that incineroar has, it can very easily tank a moonblast and switch into something that can threaten flutter mane. As mentioned by Leo, incineroar does not require tera in most matchups unlike previous top threats, specifically landorus therian which was the best intimidator in regulation D and hisuian arcanine which was the best intimidator in reg E (probably) which both required tera in almost every matchup. That point might sound a bit pointless and it probably is but I wanted to say it anyways.

Next up, a pokemon which I'm incredibly biased towards. I think that primarina should be ranked higher than it is, maybe around B- or C+. It's a weird one to rank because it's just in between C and B tier but maybe not quite as high as B-. I think it has pretty favourable matchups into the meta at the moment. When paired with something like farigiraf, it can be placed under trick room and after using calm mind can get a lot of chip onto most pokemon in the meta with hyper voice and dazzling gleam/moonblast. The only real problem for primarina is ogerpon wellspring but if it is paired with rillaboom, you can effectively take out/stop ogerpon from moving and deal big damage to the rest of their team. It also hugely benefits from tera, and you can run tera types such as dragon to resist both of ogerpons stab attacks or poison to resist flutter mane. It is also strong into the gouging fire kingambit core that has been increasing in usage as of late, with an immunity to breaking swipe and a natural resistance to the rest of the duos stab attacks. Primarina also has an insanely good urshifu matchup with a natural resistance to both forms, and access to dazzling gleam which can ko both urshifu forms even if the opponent has redirection.

Next up, I think urshifu rapid strike should be demoted to A tier. I think comparing this pokemon to something as insanely good as tornadus and just the rest of A+ tier in general is a crime and portraying it as better than the likes of rillaboom is just insane to me. Urshifu has a lot of trouble into ogerpon wellspring and with the prevalence of booster speed flutter mane, flutter mane in general and many many more pokemon including raging bolt, amoonguss and rillaboom, urshifu rapid feels incredibly difficult to position and get in a good position where it can effectively deal enough damage to justify bringing it to a game. To be honest, I would maybe even consider putting it in A- tier after thinking more deeply about what causes problems for it and realising that half of the metagame beats it.

I also think that amoonguss should be A+ tier, but I won't go too in depth on why because many people have already said basically everything I would've said. It's very flexible, and this was shown when we saw a sludge bomb amoonguss on Aaron Traylor's team for Knoxville.

I also think having kommo o that low is strange. We have seen the rise of a very dominant team featuring ting lu which has now made top 8 at Knoxville (maybe higher idk top 8 has only just started), and it has very good matchups into the common core of ogerpon incineroar. Whilst it is a bit of a tera hog, after tera steel and iron defense, it can output a large amount of damage and tank many attacks. In my opinion it should be bumped up to potentially B or B- tier.

Other than that, this is a pretty solid tier list. There are some mons that I would like to see bumped up or down but that's mainly because I dislike them, not because of any reason (I'm looking at you regidrago and scream tail).

 

[Topperzecat]

Another VR, more broken fingers from Leo!

Incineroar from A+ -> S

Usage-wise, this Pokemon is not doing so well, as much as Urshifu and below Flutter Mane and Ogerpon-W, so the ranking would make sense at first glance, but there are more factors than splashibility to determine how viable a Pokemon is. Incineroar may compete with many fire types, 5 others being B+ or above, but what really makes it S tier, is its impact on the game. Incineroar can consistently be alive from start to finish and make a huge impact by simply switching in and out. It might not be able to take on Ogerpon-Wellspring or Raging Bolt , but it can mitigate their damage output with Intimidate and Parting Shot respectively. Incineroar can put in so much work simply switching in and out throughout the entire game that it rarely needs to Terastallize, making its meta matchup incredible. This, in particular, gives it an edge because Flutter Mane , usually lasts 2-4 turns on the field, quickly trading itself for huge damage if not for a kill. This means that if a Pokemon has a bad matchup into Flutter Mane, it's significantly easier to remove it, unlike if something has a bad matchup against Incineroar, where Incineroar will likely be on their side the entire game. We have examples of it already actually, think Iron Hands who dropped 5 tiers with the introduction of Incineroar , definitely not the only contributor but the major one.

Amoonguss from A -> A+

Amoonguss has just been a very consistent alternative to Ogerpon-Wellspring , and occasionally a good partner. Incineroar is definitely the perfect addition for it, a Fire-type with Knock Off is the perfect check to Amoonguss ' common answers. Amoonguss resisting Urshifu-R 's and Fluter Mane 's Fighting and Fairy STAB respectively is always a huge plus over Wellspring , especially when it can heal off the damage and come back to do it throughout the game. Similar to Incineroar in a sense, being able to bring an impact the majority of the game and Spore applying a lot of pressure, in the battle and the teambuilder. This is especially prevalent in balance mirrors as Amoonguss can single-handedly extend them with Spore and Pollen Puff. If balance mirrors were like chess, Amoonguss would easily be the king, you lose it, you pretty much lose the game.

Urshifu-R from A -> A+ or Urshifu-S from A+ -> A

I strongly believe the majority of Urshifu's usage is exploration and not an accurate representation of their viability, Urshifu-R puts so much strain on the team builder and forces teams to run Raging Bolt + Ogerpon-W , Spe Booster Flutter Mane + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Ogerpon-W , Rillaboom + Raging Bolt , and many of these checks with hard speed control like Tornadus , Farigiraf , and Indeedee . This alone is fantastic, and then you realize it still beats the top 4, as well as half of the A and A- tiers when using its most common Scarf set. Urshifu-R should be on par with its Single-Strike counterpart from the teambuilding strain and how much more oppressive it can be, outspeeding and threatening OHKOs is a lotscarier than what Urshifu-S can do with a Focus Sash or Choice Band set. Not to mention its dominant set competes with Chien-Pao , another A tier.

Rillaboom :Rillaboom from A- -> A

Rillaboom is simply an incredible and consistent Pokemon with its offensive and supportive toolkit. I believe people were experimenting with other teams and new Pokemon, which is why its usage was so low, we can see that it made the top 12 graph at Liverpool and it can only go higher with Wolfe's 6 winning twice in a row. We can see that in the two recent 100+ player limitless tournaments Rillaboom is up with Tornadus and Urshifu as well. Hard to say anymore since Rillaboom is doing the same thing it was doing last regulation, relatively fast Fake Out pivot with a lot of offensive pressure in Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide.

Gholdengo , Ursaluna-B and Iron Crown from A- -> B+

The two just currently struggle too much in comparison to their A- counterparts. Gholdengo 's Choice Specs set has lost viability with the introduction of Steel resists in Incineroar and Raging Bolt , making it a lot less versatile, and it always has to compete with Flutter Mane on teams which is even harder now when the metagame has slowed down and become infested with Fire- and Dark-types, its sad that I can count so many poor matchups for Gholdengo from B+ and up. Definitely not any worse though, Gholdengo is still a deadly sweeper with the right support, and its typing brings crucial resistances, acting as a check to many Pokemon in one.

As for Ursaluna-B , it does not belong in the same tier as Farigiraf . Farigiraf is actually flexible in which teams it can go on, and went without an Ursaluna half the time at Liverpool, notably it ran a Trick Room mode with Torkoal Ogerpon-Cornerstone but it stands, Ursaluna-B simply fits on a lot less teams than Farigiraf, why even when we see Farigiraf hit 7th, Bloodmoon never makes it on the graph. The Trick Room teams are still deadly and make up a good portion of teams, don't think it is realistic for the Pokemon to drop any lower.

I think this case is very similar to Iron Crown 's, it relies on Indeedee but Indeedee always has the option to opt for Trick Room, an archetype that can not be underestimated when it pushed Top 8. It is also in general a far less one-dimensional Pokemon with Follow Me and Trick Room. Again, Iron Crown still has the opportunity to sweep many teams and punishes those which aren't prepared, not a Pokemon to take lightly at all.

Dragonite from B+ -> B/B-

Dragonite has just fallen off a cliff, its hurt a lot more than Entei with the drop of priority spam as Entei doesn't rely on it and focuses on Sacred Fire. I do think Assault Vest Dragonite has some great matchups right now but with how many Pokemon want the item, I don't see it. This is simply not Dragonite 's meta as long as Indeedee and Farigiraf remain dominant.

Iron Hands and Landorus-T from B -> B+/A-

I know I mentioned the 5 tier drop but I think it still applies, Incineroar convinced everyone that Iron Hands was done, and if not, a 3 tier drop is still huge, I mean, look at Indeedee or Glimmora and then take a look at Flutter Mane or Ogerpon-Wellspring . But anyway, back to Brian , a standard Assault Vest set can take on the top 4 Pokemon, and 4 of the A tier Pokemon in a 1v1 just fine, having a great matchup into many A- and B+ Pokemon is notable as well. While it does struggle vs faster Incineroar long-term, the keyword is faster, with good speed investment, Iron Hands can consistently win the Fake Out war and get off a super-effective Drain Punch before it can Parting Shot. This is even more crucial when Incineroar lacks a way to recover the health, while Iron Hands can always reset the Intimidate drops. This is not even accounting for its second set, Clear Amulet, which turns Iron Hands into a great Trick Room damage dealer perfect with Farigiraf , made it all the way to 2nd place at Charlotte showing that both sets are great. Iron Hands already had higher usage than every B+ Pokemon, and Glimmora /Iron Crown at Liverpool. It was also approaching Indeedee and Landorus , it can only rise higher as an answer to Urshifu-S popping off.

Landorus-T I feel less strong about, but with how many teams are using different Fire-types, it finds itself in a nice spot on a lot of teams. Ground is still excellent offensively and the secondary Flying type compliments it all too well. Looking into the A tiers, Landorus-T has a good match-up into....pretty much everything? Lol. Intimidate and the aforementioned typing helps make this true, only really struggling against Icy wind Flutter Mane and if using Adamant, Scarf Urshifu-R . It does notably require Pokemon like Amoonguss to be chipped but being able to pivot in and exert so much pressure on the majority of these Pokemon, it's insane this is so low. Appreciates teams casually stacking 3 Flying Weaknesses like its nothing rn.

Less to say from here as I don't care as much about the Pokemon.

Regidrago , Pelipper, , Porygon2 , and Metagross from B- -> B

These are just much easier to build around in comparison to Volcarona or Iron Bundle , their teams just being more present right now. Also because there are no B tiers after I offered to move them up

Torkoal and Ursaluna from C+ -> B

Have been getting consistent results and are probably the most common Trick Room Pokemon after Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Psyspam is getting more and more popular, and both have found niches on Farigiraf and Porygon2 teams respectively. Torkoal tying Indeedee-F in day 2 usage stats is not something that can be ignored at least, nice Fire-type Trick Room teams can use and can pull its weight in a fast mode by helping Pokemon like Flutter Mane . Ursaluna makes a great partner, removing the Fire-types that can switch in on Eruption or Fairy SPAM.

Scream Tail and from C -> C+

Both have good results and serve much better niches than Pokemon like Walking Wake or Suicune, Cornerstone even having more usage than every other Ogerpon forme, showing its a great fit on Farigiraf-Torkoal teams.

Roaring Moon from UR -> B+

I know this looks like an insane rise, but Roaring Moon MUST have been missed. variants of Neil's balance team have been everywhere, both Dragon Dance and Tailwind variants being plenty viable and being almost equal in Liverpool Day 2 usage, which involved Roaring Moon as common as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon and Gholdengo . we're short on set-up sweepers and we have access to a lot of support from Incineroar and Wellspring alone. Another highlight of Flying coverage, It has such a great meta matchup and Roaring Moon is a great user of this. The tailwind set makes for a great speed control option, helping dominate slower team styles while still keeping the bulk Balance staples provide. Breaking Swipe damage control can really stack with Incineroar and allow for a lot of free turns to get off huge damage or position a win condition.


That'd be all! Great VR <3

Am I just being stupid or is saying that ogerpon cornerstone has more usage than every other ogerpon form is just wrong. This isn't meant to be an aggressive statement even tho it sounds like it, that's just me being bad at phrasing stuff.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Am I just being stupid or is saying that ogerpon cornerstone has more usage than every other ogerpon form is just wrong. This isn't meant to be an aggressive statement even tho it sounds like it, that's just me being bad at phrasing stuff.

I realised I didn't clarify well, but I meant as a Farigiraf partner at Day 2 Liverpool.

 

[Choruto]

Next up, I think urshifu rapid strike should be demoted to A tier. I think comparing this pokemon to something as insanely good as tornadus and just the rest of A+ tier in general is a crime and portraying it as better than the likes of rillaboom is just insane to me. Urshifu has a lot of trouble into ogerpon wellspring and with the prevalence of booster speed flutter mane, flutter mane in general and many many more pokemon including raging bolt, amoonguss and rillaboom, urshifu rapid feels incredibly difficult to position and get in a good position where it can effectively deal enough damage to justify bringing it to a game. To be honest, I would maybe even consider putting it in A- tier after thinking more deeply about what causes problems for it and realising that half of the metagame beats it.

Thing with Urshifu-R is that all of its weaknesses are easily nullified by other partners. We've already seen it do very well in formats where there were major counters at high usage, such as Hands and Amoonguss , why would it be that different now?
Ogerpon-W is actually a pretty neutral MU, Urshifu-R just U-Turns out and deals 50~%, and CC does 60-70%.
In previous regulations Hands existed which was a major threat to Urshifu-R with Fake Out and surviving its attacks very easily, the only real difference is that Bolt has a prio super effective attack, which doesen't even OHKO most Urshifu sets!

Follow Me support from one of the Ogerpons nullifies the Bolt Weakness, and can redirect Spores from Amoonguss , smh like Hearthflame can even handle the Rilla and Speed Booster Flutter weakness. Flutter beats pretty much every Urshifu resist too. It's like, if you look at it in a vacuum yes Urshifu loses to a lot of things, but with support these can really be nullified.
Also, Scarf Fu has a really good MU into many top mons. Its one of the few consistend Flutter checks, It bodies Chien-pao , Lando , Glimmora , and has a pretty strong MU into Torn and Urshifu-S

I think jumping straight to saying a mon is dead when a few counters exist is pretty shortsighted when everything we have seen in the past has contradicted that. I seriously do not think Bolt or whatever will turn Urshifu-R from the arguably No. 1 threat it was in Reg E to an A- tier mon in Reg F

 

[Pengu]

Maybe Gouging Fire to A-? It got lots of representation at the regionals this weekend.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Maybe Gouging Fire to A-? It got lots of representation at the regionals this weekend.

Not disagreeing but would generally recommend more to a nomination, as results can vary and won't always directly correlate with viability. (Think Urshifu-R seeing lower usage than Gouging Fire or Gholdengo , don't think people are ready to say it's worse though) success is usually the result of something being good and you'd try to use the reasons for why it was used/why it is good when nominating a Pokemon.

 

[Flarefox_7]

It is now time for my expert opinion on this tier list.

First off, I STRONGLY believe that incineroar should be S tier. Fake out is such an amazing tool, and in combination with parting shot and intimidate, it very easily pivots out on most of the metagame and in combination with ogerpon wellspring, things like urshifu rapid strike which may otherwise cause problems for it now cannot freely click surging strikes or other strong super effective moves into incineroar. I think incineroar is only going to become stronger as the format progresses. We have already seen that urshifu rapid strike is falling off, especially at high level play and urshifu is one of the pokemon that threatens incineroar the most. Incineroar is not only an incredibly splashable pokemon on team archetypes such as balance and even things like trick room and tailwind, but it also prevents huge attackers from running over the metagame. For instance, flutter mane does not enjoy taking parting shots and with the amount of bulk that incineroar has, it can very easily tank a moonblast and switch into something that can threaten flutter mane. As mentioned by Leo, incineroar does not require tera in most matchups unlike previous top threats, specifically landorus therian which was the best intimidator in regulation D and hisuian arcanine which was the best intimidator in reg E (probably) which both required tera in almost every matchup. That point might sound a bit pointless and it probably is but I wanted to say it anyways.

Next up, a pokemon which I'm incredibly biased towards. I think that primarina should be ranked higher than it is, maybe around B- or C+. It's a weird one to rank because it's just in between C and B tier but maybe not quite as high as B-. I think it has pretty favourable matchups into the meta at the moment. When paired with something like farigiraf, it can be placed under trick room and after using calm mind can get a lot of chip onto most pokemon in the meta with hyper voice and dazzling gleam/moonblast. The only real problem for primarina is ogerpon wellspring but if it is paired with rillaboom, you can effectively take out/stop ogerpon from moving and deal big damage to the rest of their team. It also hugely benefits from tera, and you can run tera types such as dragon to resist both of ogerpons stab attacks or poison to resist flutter mane. It is also strong into the gouging fire kingambit core that has been increasing in usage as of late, with an immunity to breaking swipe and a natural resistance to the rest of the duos stab attacks. Primarina also has an insanely good urshifu matchup with a natural resistance to both forms, and access to dazzling gleam which can ko both urshifu forms even if the opponent has redirection.

Next up, I think urshifu rapid strike should be demoted to A tier. I think comparing this pokemon to something as insanely good as tornadus and just the rest of A+ tier in general is a crime and portraying it as better than the likes of rillaboom is just insane to me. Urshifu has a lot of trouble into ogerpon wellspring and with the prevalence of booster speed flutter mane, flutter mane in general and many many more pokemon including raging bolt, amoonguss and rillaboom, urshifu rapid feels incredibly difficult to position and get in a good position where it can effectively deal enough damage to justify bringing it to a game. To be honest, I would maybe even consider putting it in A- tier after thinking more deeply about what causes problems for it and realising that half of the metagame beats it.

I also think that amoonguss should be A+ tier, but I won't go too in depth on why because many people have already said basically everything I would've said. It's very flexible, and this was shown when we saw a sludge bomb amoonguss on Aaron Traylor's team for Knoxville.

I also think having kommo o that low is strange. We have seen the rise of a very dominant team featuring ting lu which has now made top 8 at Knoxville (maybe higher idk top 8 has only just started), and it has very good matchups into the common core of ogerpon incineroar. Whilst it is a bit of a tera hog, after tera steel and iron defense, it can output a large amount of damage and tank many attacks. In my opinion it should be bumped up to potentially B or B- tier.

Other than that, this is a pretty solid tier list. There are some mons that I would like to see bumped up or down but that's mainly because I dislike them, not because of any reason (I'm looking at you regidrago and scream tail).

Just to clarify, Urshifu-R is A tier, Urshifu-S is A+ tier

 

[TheEeveeAnimations]

y’all cooked. this is very much in line with how knox went, so I have no objections at the moment. the only thing I think could be argued is up to A based on its very strong performances at regionals recently.

 

[fyfyy]

y’all cooked. this is very much in line with how knox went, so I have no objections at the moment. the only thing I think could be argued is up to A based on its very strong performances at regionals recently.

I agree with this highly, is a top meta pick right now and definitely deserves to go one tier higher,its got multiple sets with various roles and it has shown the amazing utility its ability, Armor Tail provides. Strong STAB Hyper Voice from 110 Spatk. boosted further by Throat Spray makes it a really strong meta threat. It can also be utilized to provide support with Helping Hand and consistently set trick room for its other partners to sweep.
It surprisingly gets Nasty Plot as well which can work on few sets and might be under explored right now. A lot of people doubted the lovely giraffe and considered that it would as the Prio Spam archetype dropped but that's not the case and our lovely stays winning.

 

[413X]

https://tiermaker.com/create/vgc-regulation-f--766180
made a tiermaker

 

[TheEeveeAnimations]

should be in A- and should be in B imo. howl teams are an entire archetype now, let's put some respect on big homie's name.

this VR has stayed surprisingly consistent. interested to see what lies ahead

 

[Choruto]

The P2 and Glim disrespect is craaazy
The top of the VR is fine I think, personally I'd move Bolt down, it feels more on the level of Urshifu-S or Landorus than say Incin, the top 3 are just way too good.

The lower tiers feel kinda outdated, stuff like Entei , Indeedee-F and Iron Crown are a lot less prevalent rn compared to other mons in their tier, like P2 and Moon . I'd also say the weathers are kinda under represented, Peli /Archa rain has been pretty big for the whole format, and Tork has also been great for a while.

 

[4Kuser]

The Viability Rankings are finally updated, so let me rant discuss my rises and drops.

UR -> C or C+
Gallade is a very huge threat to most teams, and with Psychic Terrain, and Helping Hand from a Pokemon like Indeedee, its Physco Cuts and Sacred Swords become nukes.

B- -> B
The disrespect lmao. Iron Hands could maybe be higher, as it is a solid teambuilding option and reached good results in tournaments.

B+ -> B or B-
I'm not so sure why this Pokemon is at B+, it's not that relevant on Priority Spam teams, as most of them prefer Ogerpon-H.

C+ -> B-
These three could be higher as rain had and still, has a huge impact on the meta. Torkoal is also a good Pokemon to mention, it's very good and popular on Hard Trick Room also it does at least a gazillion damage.

S -> A+

Raging Bolt is a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but I don't really agree with Raging Bolt being at S tier, it's at the same power level as Urshifu-S and Landorus than the Top 3 Pokemon.

And that's pretty much it. You guys cooked, almost everything on the list I agree to, so nice job!