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Just doubled into cresselia in a mock battle and easily won. I have a video if you'd like to see, but I don't know how to upload it. I had all four mons remaining and landed no critical hits.
I'm not sure if this is allowed, and I apologize if it is not, but here is the video. Sorry it took so long I just got off work, but this was my first attempt. Most trick room teams lack the offense to sweep me within 5 turns.
The 4x weaknesses on my team are deliberate; it makes the AI extremely predictable. I hope this video changes your mind.
Here is proof that it did indeed take many many many trials. If you want to call me lucky, that's fair. I reject your notion that I am a liar, however.
Update: Streak over, hopefully leaderboard eligible. Did the whole thing without the calculator or teamcheck cuz it was taking too long and felt inorganic.
I'll edit the team to look better later but it was:
Landorus-T / Jolly / 252 Att 252 Spe 4 HP / Item: Choice Scarf / Rock Slide, Earthquake, Knock Off, Superpower
Salamence / Jolly / 252 Att 252 Spe 4 HP / Item: Salamencite / Earthquake, Double-Edge, Dragon Dance, Outrage
Fairly straightforward aggressive team, usually just outgun them so climbing is efficient. Lost to classic trick room, prob could've doubled into the Cresselia. 50/50 on which would trick room because no referencing, but good fun all around, a good challenge. Thank you all. Code for the loss on 245 is:
6MEG-WWWW-WWXE-H3LF
Admittedly, the streak you're submitting looks quite surprising to me, and clearly, it does to a few others as well. One of the main sources of confusion, to me, is how much you insist you've been playing the Battle Tree with that team for hundreds of hours. I'm not sure if you mean that literally or if you say it to just mean "a lot", but you appear to mean it literally (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'll assume that's the case.
If so, I'm rather disappointed that after hundreds of hours of using this team in Tree, you have practically nothing to say about either the team or your runs. So much must have happened! I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested to hear things that happened in your previous dozens (I presume?) of runs. Which sets have you grown afraid of, and why? Any of the special trainers? What kind of crazy hax has ended runs? Is this your first time hitting 200? Any particular reason you decided to share it here just now, and not, for example, that 179 run you mention? Usually, after a lot of time with a team, people tend to have a lot to say, because a lot happens.
The mention of hundreds of hours playing Tree also implies a great number of failures in the past, which to me, raises an important question: did you consider, at any point, making changes to the team? From my own Tree experience, the team looks like a very reasonable starting point, but runs into several obvious issues that are particularly common in the Tree, yet could be patched or at least severely improved by some modifications. I know I would personally go mad if I kept failing with the same team and didn't try fixing things depending on what I lose to.
Lastly, I would like to touch on another point that's confusing to me. You mention a deliberate use of 4x weaknesses because it makes the AI more reliable, which definitely makes sense in theory. However, I'm not sure how one is supposed to take advantage of the AI being more predictable if you don't have a way to bait the move to take advantage of it, ie. Protect for a turn. Only Kartana on the team can do it, so even if you know a Blizzard is coming out, for example, when you have Landorus or Salamence on the field, how do you take advantage of that? I'd suppose switching in Volcarona in one of the slots is a way, but that only covers one of the slots, and if that's a common trend, then it would seem like you are constantly gambling Volcarona getting frozen, which seems extremely bad against one (or many, since they usually come in spades) Blizzard user(s)? Basically, I'm really struggling to see how these 4x weaknesses actually help you with the particular Pokémon and sets you're running, particularly a shared one.
In short, this streak genuinely leaves me confused and I think going into more detail (whatever you think is worth mentioning about your experiences, really!) could help me, and others, make more sense of it. I hope you're fine with expanding bit upon it, thanks in advance!
First, I would like to ask you to please stop double- and triple-posting, it is against the global rules of the forum:
Admittedly, the streak you're submitting looks quite surprising to me, and clearly, it does to a few others as well. One of the main sources of confusion, to me, is how much you insist you've been playing the Battle Tree with that team for hundreds of hours. I'm not sure if you mean that literally or if you say it to just mean "a lot", but you appear to mean it literally (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'll assume that's the case.
If so, I'm rather disappointed that after hundreds of hours of using this team in Tree, you have practically nothing to say about either the team or your runs. So much must have happened! I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested to hear things that happened in your previous dozens (I presume?) of runs. Which sets have you grown afraid of, and why? Any of the special trainers? What kind of crazy hax has ended runs? Is this your first time hitting 200? Any particular reason you decided to share it here just now, and not, for example, that 179 run you mention? Usually, after a lot of time with a team, people tend to have a lot to say, because a lot happens.
The mention of hundreds of hours playing Tree also implies a great number of failures in the past, which to me, raises an important question: did you consider, at any point, making changes to the team? From my own Tree experience, the team looks like a very reasonable starting point, but runs into several obvious issues that are particularly common in the Tree, yet could be patched or at least severely improved by some modifications. I know I would personally go mad if I kept failing with the same team and didn't try fixing things depending on what I lose to.
Lastly, I would like to touch on another point that's confusing to me. You mention a deliberate use of 4x weaknesses because it makes the AI more reliable, which definitely makes sense in theory. However, I'm not sure how one is supposed to take advantage of the AI being more predictable if you don't have a way to bait the move to take advantage of it, ie. Protect for a turn. Only Kartana on the team can do it, so even if you know a Blizzard is coming out, for example, when you have Landorus or Salamence on the field, how do you take advantage of that? I'd suppose switching in Volcarona in one of the slots is a way, but that only covers one of the slots, and if that's a common trend, then it would seem like you are constantly gambling Volcarona getting frozen, which seems extremely bad against one (or many, since they usually come in spades) Blizzard user(s)? Basically, I'm really struggling to see how these 4x weaknesses actually help you with the particular Pokémon and sets you're running, particularly a shared one.
In short, this streak genuinely leaves me confused and I think going into more detail (whatever you think is worth mentioning about your experiences, really!) could help me, and others, make more sense of it. I hope you're fine with expanding bit upon it, thanks in advance!
Hey! I am sorry about the spam. I will not do that again and I will try to answer your concerns in the order they appear!
I have a lot to say about the team! I did not believe anybody would be very impressed or interested, so I simply posted the results. I see the massive streaks people have done and my 244 is small beans in comparison.
This is the 3rd (ish?) time I have used this particular combination. The first two I led with Salamence and Landorus, with Kartana and Volcarona in the back. It was nice sweeping dozens and dozens of teams with earthquake spam. However, my biggest struggle was double intimidate teams or water teams or teams that led with ice/water and had a fire move in the back. Prior to that, I had limited success (high streak ~150) using Landorus / Salamence / Snorlax / Cresselia. Cresselia and Snorlax admittedly made better switch ins, but I ran into lots of trouble if they had Ghost-types, Mawile, or a Pelipper. I also had, and still do, the biggest problem with bulky water types. Suicune, Pelipper, Jellicent, and Gyarados were consistently ending my runs, especially stockpile Pelipper with Rocky Helmet, Suicune. Or Ferrothorn. If one of those pokemon came in, I had to sacrifice a great portion of my team to beat it and hope the others would come through. I also attempted to use Mega Gengar instead of Salamence, hoping to lose that water weakness, but kept dying to Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak. I also experimented with Mega Metagross and got above 150 but lost to bright powder Magnezone when my move missed twice in a row. I also found that my more defensive teams were ill-equiped to deal with status conditions.
Yes, due to the limited options for my team, I lost constantly to crazy hax. The first time I viewed this forum I was actually seeing if anyone else thought the AI was cheating. Due to my Landorus' scarf, when it doubt, I used Rock Slide. Rock slide is there for the large amount of Flying-Fire types, along with Volcarona. I gained a lot of flinch hax on the AI with this, and it proved more reliable than not.
Yes this is the first time I have reached 200, and I have been playing this game on and off for years. I suppose it is either because I am stupid or stubborn, but defensive teams did not make the game very fun. Usually if they lead with two blizzard users, or a user I cannot snipe, I eat my lumps, tank with sash, and revenge kill after Landorus faints. I can still usually pick off one of his pokemon and end up with a 1 HP +1 Att Kartana, and a 3v3. Volcarona can come nuke the remaining blizzard user, and boosted Kartana often deals heavy damage (or makes the enemy faint) on its last turn of life. If a rock type comes in, I cannot bring in salamence, but Kartana often ends +2 after killing either of the other pokemon. If they have a priority move on their 3rd, I usually know it's going into Kartana, and will protect while still killing their blizzard user. Then, depending on who comes in last I can either switch in salamence or let them have Kartana at the price of heavy health loss or a setup from Volcarona. I used to have protect on Volcarona but wound up struggling against fire-flying, so I switched to psychic. If I'm caught with a blizzard coming with both Landorus and Salamence, I can usually outspeed the blizzard user and double in. If there are two blizzard users, i can usually take one and just finish with the remaining pokemon, because two blizzard users often indicates a full ice team.
Honestly, I cannot really keep this team alive and thus don't really try. That is why none of them have protect except Kartana, who I do need alive to deal with Water and Ice types. I have enough motility with my team (due to them fainting easily) where I can usually make smaller or smarter sacrifices than my opponent and eventually end up in a 2v1 or a 1v1 where I outspeed them. The logic for my 4x weaknesses are covering each other's weaknesses. The threats are ice teams, which half my team makes up for, and fire teams, which half my team makes up for. Rock teams are slow and bad. Water teams I just have to slug it out and keep Kartana alive.
Sorry, this post got long fast! In short, Kartana is the real pokemon worth protecting and the others either deal with types that threaten it or bait moves (except Blizzard, which still sucks) away from Kartana. I'll include some battles I saved in case you are interested.
Code: KFZW-WWWW-WWXE-H536
This was a bummer, man. I bet on rock slide and outrage and lost. This battle prompted me to put Kartana in front, because I still believed in the team. I also believed that in the same situation I could prevail.
Code: ELFG-WWWW-WWXE-H53D
This one was from the same run as the previous and I saved because I should have definitely lost but the AI rolled a bad ability. It also highlights another weakness of my team which is intimidate, as I don't really have the tankiness to switch a pokemon in without sacrificing them.
Thank you for your time. Hopefully I answered some of your questions. If you have any more, I'd be happy to answer!
Aye congrats on the team! I don't have any input for improvements, but you're at least on the money about Mence + Drill being a good duo, as it saw moderate amounts of success in VGC (albeit as a Sand team). Maybe pop in the discord linked on the main post if you're really hankering for some help.
I hope you can hit the big 1k as well. It's always nice to see people enjoying the classics :]
I felt more special attack would be better to guarantee OHKOs on mega steelix, mega garchomp, noivern (with dazzling gleam) and a nearly guaranteed OHKO on mega aerodactyl, as well as near guaranteed 2HKOs on espeon and glaceon with dazzling gleam and moonblast on primarina and walrein-4. Fini still has enough bulk to take one of raikou or jolteon's thunders and I reduced the speed to 121, enough to outrun uninvested base 100s and scarf terrakion under tailwind. Fini often comes out when tailwind is up so I didn't think it needed 125 speed which it previously had. I also think that trick is well worth the moveslot over gk or ice beam- it is especially useful for stealing leftovers from pokemon like regigigas, and cresselia and locking them into a probably useless move, as well as locking defense boosters like registeel, ferrothorn, and lanturn into one move. Ferrothorn-4 is a minor threat to this team once it has cursed because none of my members can hit it very hard, but locking into seed bomb, curse, or ingrain xD can allow mence or chansey to wall it.
I decided to try heal pulse over helping hand and I haven't ever regretted it. It's mostly used on tapu fini because it tends to get worn down easily due to its lack of leftovers or a berry and it switches into a lot of attacks aimed at the frontline. I can occasionally use it on mence which helps mitigate double-edge recoil. Something to note is that I only want to use ally switch if I am convinced that the AI will target fini with a move I would rather have chansey take- for example, if fini is in guaranteed KO range of a move. If fini isn't in range, the AI has targeted chansey with a thunderbolt or two while I have used ally switched which is really frustrating. In these cases, I would be better off swapping fini to drill if it's alive. Also, chansey's speed tier is a lot more useful than snorlax's- I can outspeed and recover on mega mawile, uninvested regis, mega aggron, lickilicky, mudsdale, and armaldo.
Notes on Excadrill-
I definitely think excadrill is a better fit for this team over kartana. It's so nice that it's immune to thunder wave, meaning I don't have to switch mence into fini on bulky thunder wave users like porygon2, uxie, and mega aggon- I can just protect mence and attack with excadrill. Excadrill can also avoid the 2HKO from many more special attacks, although its physical defense is much worse. Kikujiro is a joke now that I can get a guaranteed tailwind up on thundurus and raikou and just sweep with drill. His ground typing also makes it easier to switch fini into that slot and switch drill into fini's slot- kartana was at risk of being targeted with electric attacks despite its resistance. Mold breaker is useful primarily for magnezone's sturdy, but also for togedemaru, mega aggron's filter, mimikyu's disguise, and levitators like the latis, rotoms, the lake trio, and bronzong. It's funny seeing the AI, "immunity" switching after an earthquake into a levitator, only for it to get hit anyway because of mold breaker :D earthquaking chansey or fini is almost never an issue either, and if I need to do so, they both avoid the 2HKO. Lastly, rock slide's accuracy hasn't been an issue yet- as I predicted, I rarely click it and I can usually afford to miss it. It's been useful for moltres, talonflame, charizard, zapdos, and thundurus.
Some more threats- Alakazam34- The biggest threat is mega zam, which can trace intimidate and OHKO mence with a crit psychic, and obviously focus blast drill into the distortion world. It can 2HKO fini and do lots of chip damage on chansey. It's also bulky enough to live a +0 iron head or possibly a -1 double-edge. When I see this come out on turn one, I get paranoid about it critting mence with psychic or dazzling gleam. If I need to keep mence in for tailwind and it crits, I will probably lose. Fortunately, I haven't come across mega zam in the lead position yet, and the specs set I can double protect on (it should prefer focus blast on drill, but it dazzling gleams a lot) and then react accordingly. Mega zam should also prefer to blast driller but the AI is funky sometimes.
Salamence4 (Mega)- My frontline doesn't like intimidate and mega mence is no exception. I would probably keep mence in on this to tailwind if it were faster, but it speed ties and is threatened with a crit dragon rush or flinch. Hypothetically, I should be safe swapping mence to fini on the dragon rush when this comes out, but if tailwind isn't up, a crit double-edge will blow fini away on the next turn if it decides to target it. This hasn't happened yet but I know it could.
Aerodactyl34- Just like zam, if I need tailwind and aero4 crits mence with stone edge, I'm in trouble. This has happened once and volcarona was its partner D: I was lucky rock slide connected (I forgot to save the replay). Crit stone edge is also likely to KO fini. Mega aero outspeeds drill and can threaten a flinch or burn with fire fang. It can live an iron head, somewhat wall mence, and threaten fini with thunder fang. If in the lead position, double protect to scout is usually the play- otherwise, ally switch and pivoting can work.
Slowbro4 (Mega)- This is one of the few trick roomers I can't double up on with mence and drill for a KO. It has coverage moves for my frontline and psychic hits fini hard, although it doesn't 2HKO if no hax. Fortunately, moonblast does a lot, and chansey walls it and can heal up fini. It also tends to blizzard on turn one if in the lead position instead of trick rooming.
Magnezone34- Just kidding, get mold breaker earthquaked xD
Speed Trainers (Raz, Granville, Buddy, and Leena)- They are still the trainers I hate seeing most. The sets that make me tread carefully are greninja3, sceptile4, crobat4, alakazam34, weavile4, and aerodactyl34. All of these mons can prevent mence from getting up tailwind via flinching, sleep, taunt, or a risk of OHKO. Chansey is usually relied upon heavily if I can't get tailwind up for walling and chipping things with seismic, but is at risk of taunt. One thing better about using drill over kartana is that greninja3 and sceptile4 usually goes for water shuriken or earthquake for drill instead of rock slide, allowing mence to escape without a flinch. I am also grateful for modest natures on noivern34 and greninja3 because they allow mence to outspeed :D also, thamina and hilario aren't as threatening because they don't have crobat, aerodactyl, or weavile. If I ever lose without being haxed, it will probably be to a speed trainer.
More battle videos- UAAW-WWWW-WWXE-H58V (Sceptile, Greninja, Noivern, Crobat)
I probably shouldn't have risked mence getting flinched here but it paid off. In my defense, I thought sceptile would quake again. This shows how non-threatening speed trainers are once tailwind is up
ML3G-WWWW-WWXE-H58U (Crobat, Greninja, Aerodactyl, Noivern)
This battle was funny because chansey basically walled his whole team even while taunted! I wasn't able to get tailwind up which made the battle much more difficult. I'm noticing now that icy wind on chansey would've made this a lot easier- maybe I should consider it over seismic toss?
FKPW-WWWW-WWXE-H58T (Rotom, Alakazam, Mudsdale, Sawk)
I misclick here and end up losing drill unnecessarily- if the backline was more threatening, I could have been in trouble.
7BGG-WWWW-WWXE-H58S (Espeon, Glaceon, Alakazam, Gengar)
This battle definitely taught me that tailwind is a priority for Ezra and Christian. Drill+Fini run through most of her team under tailwind, while mence is checked or countered by a couple mons like magnezone, heatran, drampa, and glaceon. The AIs targeting was also really frustrating here when espeon didn't target fini with low hp- this was the closest battle I've had yet.
Hello again,
I got another streak with the same team I posted before (the only changes are the ones I already noted in my previous post). I was hoping I could get 300 this time, but I ended up losing at 288 wins. However, due to uh... technical difficulties my 3ds turned off after I lost, so I guess my official streak length ends up being 285 wins.
Incineroar (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 14 SpA
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 20 HP / 4 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
- Substitute
- Protect
To make the post a bit more interesting, I'm gonna share some war stories of difficult battles I had:
vs. Hilario the Youth Athlete
Turn 1: vs.
Gardevoir taces contrary from Serperior. These opponents are not huge threats in my book, but Whimsi can always disrupt my game plan by being annoying. I also notice Serperior-4 can put some pretty big chip on Gardevoir, while being likely to ignore Kartana:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 100 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 99-117 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still I decide to go for Hyper Voice + Tail Wind, since preventing Serperior from moving does not seem possible here and switches to Incineroar can get weird, as he's outsped by Serperior, even in TW and I'd have to switch out Kartana after using TW.
Gardevoir megas
Kartana sets Tail Wind
Serperior uses Leaf Storm on Gardevoir, Gardevoir faints, a critical hit
Whimsicott sets Tail Wind
252+ SpA Choice Specs Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 100 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega on a critical hit: 148-175 (94.8 - 112.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
This is bad, losing Gardevoir for free, while my Tailwind is countered with an opponents Tailwind. I will have to switch Kartana into Incineroar next turn, so I replace Gardevoir with Landorus.
Turn 2: vs.
This is tough, but far from over. Due to Serperior being Modest Lando outspeeds, however his chance of OHKOing is very low:
228 SpA Life Orb Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 127-151 (84.6 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Leaf Storm into Lando is basically guaranteed here, so while Kartana switches to Incineroar, Lando protects. I have to hope Whimsi doesn't do anything weird.
Kartana switches to Incineroar
Landorus uses Protect
Serperior Leaf Storm into Landorus
Whimsicott Swagger into Landorus
Turn 3: vs.
Finally there's a clear path to get back into this match. Had Whimsi swaggered Incineroar, that would've been big trouble, but the way it is my path is clear: Inci can Fake Out Serperior while Lando outspeeds and KOs pranksterless Whimsi, then during the next turn Serperior will be in range for lando aswell (15.4% are needed for Lando to KO):
252+ Atk Incineroar Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 25-30 (16.6 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
Incineroar uses Fake out on Serperior
Lando Sludge Bombs Whimsicott
Whimsicott faints
Serperior flinches
Hawlucha replaces Whimsi
Turn 4: vs.
Hawlucha after losing Gardevoir is not an easy opponent at all. I HAVE to KO Serperior with Lando here. Both Incineroar and Kartana would be hit Super Effectively by a fighting attack. I decide to keep Kartana save and simply Flare Blitz into Hawlucha with Incineroar. In retrospect switching to Kartana might not have been a bad move, since Hawlucha most likely wont ko him, it recycles Fake Out and preserving HP is much more important on Inci than Kartana.
252 Atk Hawlucha Flying Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 108-128 (80.5 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana on a critical hit: 114-135 (85 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha Flying Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 120-144 (89.5 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Hawlucha uses Sky Attack against Incineroar, a critical hit
Landorus Sludge Bombs Serperior
Serperior Faints
Incineroar flinches
Salazzle replaces Serperior
Both Tailwinds dissipate
Turn 5: vs.
I am in trouble. The crit leaves Incineroar at 30 hp, the flinch might actually be good for me here, since he would've killed himself with the recoil from Flare Blitz, while most likely not scoring a KO:
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 130-154 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Salazzle is faster than Lando and either set is big trouble. Salazzle-4 can OHKO with a Z-Move, while Salazzle-3 can survive a hit with Sash and 2HKO:
252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 20 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 102-120 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Salazzle Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 20 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 195-231 (116.7 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
On top of that he has Fake Out, making him extra unpredictable. I have no clear path to victory at this point. If I can setup a 1v1 between Hawlucha and Lando, I would win, but there's no way to get rid of Salazzle without big losses.
228 SpA Life Orb Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 88-104 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hawlucha Stone Edge vs. 20 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 50-59 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 20.4% chance to 3HKO
I decide I need to recycle Fake Out, so I switch Incineroar for Kartana, while Protecting Lando against potential Fake Out or Z-Move.
Turn 6: vs.
Kartana is low here, and there's no clear play for me. All I can do at this point is optimize my winning chances, while there is a large chance I just lose. Every move leads to possible scenarios where I lose or win. My final decision is switching Lando for Inci (so much for recycling that FO) while Tailwinding with Kartana, to outspeed salazzle next turn. Against Salazzle-3 this allows me to win if he goes for Nasty Plot (Inci survives and Fake Outs or he nasty plots while his sash gets broken) Against Salazzle-4 this is pretty much a guaranteed win, since Lando outspeeds and OHKOs. If Hawlucha is unburden, I think I lose every scenario, that does not involve extreme luck, as Kartana faints without moving.
Landorus switches for Incineroar
Kartana uses Tail Wind
Hawlucha Flying Presses Kartana
Kartana faints
Salazzle Overheats Incineroar, but it misses
Landorus replaces Kartana
Turn 7: vs.
This is it, my final gamble paid off and won me the game. Overheat reveals Salazzle-4, without Focus Sash, the path is clear from here: Fake out Hawlucha, while Lando OHKOs Salazzle and then beat Hawlucha with Lando, which is exactly what happens on Turns 7 and 8.
Victory!
vs. one of the Sun trainers
Turn 1: vs.
I have not noted these opponents as large threats before, but still I am unsure what to do in this situation. Charizard is guaranteed Y and Heatwave + Leafblade would kill gardevoir. With a potential Quick Claw on Leafeon it will be very hard to stop him from moving, no matter what and if Kartana makes a move, he will certainly die. The plan I come up with is Protect + Tail Wind, then bring Inci for Kartana, Fake Out Leafeon while securing the kill with Hyper Voice, which then would put Charizard in range for a Thunder Bolt KO.
188+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 38-45 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
188+ SpA Gardevoir-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 116-138 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Turn 2: vs.
I continue following through with my plan
Leafeons Quick claw activates (haha I planned for this)
Leafeon uses Detect (oh NO!)
Incineroar Fake Outs Leafeon
Charizard Solar Beams Gardevoir
Gardevoir uses Hyper Voice
Turn 3: vs.
That was less than ideal. However I feel Incineroar is fairly save here, so I Protect Gardevoir, while going for another attempt at knocking out Leafeon, this time with Flare Blitz.
Charizard switches to Venusaur
Gardevoir uses Protect
Incineroar uses Flare Blitz into Leafeon
Leafeon Faints
Exeggutor replaces Leafeon
Turn 4: vs.
This aint so bad. I still have a turn of Tail Wind, so Gardevoir can KO Venusaur (who can't mega) with Psychic and Inci will knock out Exeggutor with Flare Blitz.
Turn 5: vs.
This is not that easy actually. Solar Beam put Gardevoir in guaranteed ko range for Venusaur:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 100 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 62-73 (39.7 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 100 HP / 4 SpD Gardevoir-Mega: 102-120 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I need to protect Gardevoir, while recycling fake out. Here I make a critical mistake though. I go for U-Turn to recycle FO, not realizing the Flare Blitz recoil has critically weakened Incineroars HP (down to 116), giving Charizard a high chance of KOing with Focus Blast:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Gardevoir uses Protect
Charizard uses Focus Blast on Incineroar
Incineroar faints
Venusaur Sludge Bombs Gardevoir
Landorus replaces Incineroar
The Sun dissipates
Turn 6: vs.
With correct play from the AI I am dead. Venusaur is faster than Garde and can KO her, Lando can't beat both. My last-ditch effort is trying to ko Charizard, while hoping Venusaur goes for random protects (he did earlier when he had a guaranteed KO on garde). Lando will beat Venusaur 1vs1. Sludge Bomb and Thunder Bolt into Charizard.
If I switch Incineroar to Lando, instead of U-Turning, Lando takes the focus blast, is not in range for anything sludge bombs charizard, while taking heat wave, gardevoir dies to venu and then I have inci fake out on venu, while Lando outspeeds and KOs Charizard, then I beat venu 2v1 easy.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 20 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 47-56 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
228 SpA Life Orb Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 55-65 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That aside the AI played exceptionally well here, using the perfect protects to stall out my Tailwind turns and switching Charizard out of Tailwind, when he could've gone down, so uh... kudos to the AI.
If there's any plays I missed and did not point out in the writeup I'd be happy to hear about them, since I'm not a very good players chances are I probably missed something. Thank you for reading.
First Doubles team of mine to reach the Starf Berry, which I then considered a milestone, but now this team is mainly of interest (to me) because it shows the origins of 4K. Deficient moveslots abound, in part due to a lack of tutors (including ORAS which I don't own). Hariyama was chosen due to resisting Rock, Ice and Fire while providing Fake Out and HH access. I swapped it out for Wishiwashi mid-streak for reasons I don't recall. Absurdly bad team.
After this, I piloted a carbon-copy of Level 51's PheroLele to ~380 and then stopped playing for a while.
Koko-Kang (497) (Tapu Koko / Kangaskhan / Landorus-T / Aegislash)
Played: April '18
Influenced by: paperquagsire et al. (lead combination), Josh C.'s Mega Lopunny team
Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
Koko/Kang + Steel + Ground with a levitator was a common sight at the time (paperquagsire had Garchomp/Celesteela; I also recall a team with Excadrill/Latios). I didn't have a HA Landorus and ended up discovering the power of Intimidate for myself instead. Also the power of Mega Kangaskhan.
Identity Theft (~200) (Oranguru / Camerupt / Primarina / Ferrothorn)
Played: Summer '18
Influenced by: The Gesamtkunstwerk of ReptoAbysmal, JustinTR's M-Camerupt team
Primarina @ Life Orb
Liquid Voice
- Protect
- Hyper Voice
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
Ferrothorn @ Choice Band
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- Explosion
Tutors arrive. Don't ask about Yawn. It was used to facilitate Trick Room using T1 Guru switches; one of these telltale signs that your team isn't good enough. Josh C. would later raise the bar on M-Camerupt by adding a Tapu (Bulu) and Nature Power in the idle moveslot, which is probably the best set.
Power Whip is better than Seed Bomb. This is Repto's influence, although he usually makes better teams even when forced to pick 4 at semi-random. À propos, here's a link to EVELYN (a small Perl script that aids with playing Randoms the Repto way; it's currently used by exactly one person in the world).
Heatran @ Life Orb
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Nature Power
- Protect
Tapu Bulu @ Choice Band
- Wood Hammer
- Horn Leech
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
Seviper is the more aesthetically pleasing snake but hopeless in battle, even with Final Gambit. I tried.
Intimidate + Mega Latias is a decent imitation of actual platforms like Misty Seed Zapdos, and the leads enjoy great Ally Switch synergy. Z-Coil was used a few times to reset Intimidate; you would generally not believe the amount of Coils that Arbok gets; the team contributed to teaching me the value of setup in Doubles.
Nature Power Life Orb Heatran in Grassy Terrain OHKOs Primarina34 IIRC; Eruptran would likely have been better but was unobtainium. Still displaying that fatal fondness of items like Choice Band on a Doubles backliner, but at least Lati/Heatran/Bulu is an actual core.
Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Bulletproof
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Flamethrower
- Protect
Wherein I discover that Kartana is a fantastic Tailwind setter and practise how to switch in Doubles.
Kommo-o used a more defensive EV spread (IIRC hitting the magic number of 137 Speed to outrun the base 130+ crew in TW) than the standard 252/252 Spe/SpA.
I want to condemn Thunder Punch as I type this. IIRC it got Primarina into Hyper Voice range, which is still not the best of cases against U-turn on a team that regularly switches out Incineroar on T1.
I recognized the EV spread of the Gardevoir in the post above: it's the one I used here. Gardevoir can take hits rather well behind Intimidate, the ability that makes your HP/Def EVs count 1.5x 23/24 of the time, team-wide (a simplification, but you get the point; the same way that Tailwind/TR makes your Spe count double/require no investment at all for the price of 1t, which compared to Inti's 0t should show how valuable Spe is compared to all other stats, if this is still worth it).
4K (886, 1002, 1149) (Tapu Koko / Kartana / Kommo-o / Kangaskhan)
Played: Fall/Winter '18, again in 2019; too many times
Influenced by: turskain (see above), an E-Web Koko I saw at VGC '18 + Koko-Kang teams
Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Electroweb
- Dazzling Gleam
The only mediocre team I ever made (streaks of 1000 are now what I consider mediocrity, yeah), 4K still holds the amusing distinction of being the only team at 1000+ that has been piloted by multiple players, for reasons I can only guess at but which might involve the team's absurd plug-and-play "philosophy". The team was born from wishing that Tapu Koko learnt Tailwind and discovering that, effectively, it does. Losses occurred to Electrode setting a Light Screen I overlooked in calcing while pursuing a dubious line (twice) and the game crashing (once).
I still consider Knock Off to be the superior second slot over S-Sword on Kartana, not least because this ensures that all Trick Room users get OHKOd T1.
Bulky SToss Kangaskhan as used by Level 51 should be superior, in part because of the frequent T1 switches (Volt or otherwise) to it; it was unavailable to me.
This team taught me that I have the psychological issue of getting bored of obvious winning lines (my entire experience with 4K is akin to my reenacting Bad Girl in No More Heroes, incidentally a much more artful game than Pokemon; I even listened to Pleather For Breakfast on repeat during play in futile irony). Battle 1150 is not when you start trying to prove that you can play cute with Electroweb like the pros, instead of inflicting the necessary "unsubtle" chip you've played a million times before.
Star Wash (~90, 392) (Staraptor / Rotom-W / Garchomp / Scizor)
Played: January/February '19 IIRC
Influenced by: Peterko's Subway Staraptor team; also Eisenherz having crafted a Gladion cosplay team, which I played using the magic of QR codes; it featured a lead Scarfluke with Final Gambit, and I fell in love with the move. General Ally Switch fondness is also due to Eisenherz' showcasing the move on MimiLax.
You haven't felt cute until you've won a 2-2 by choice-locking Ally Switch on Rotom coming back in (after T1 Volt Switch) exploiting the fire move against Scizor for a winning SD. I wish this team had been my legacy instead of the one above. Alas. The team probably overperformed on the second streak (the first was lost to Glalie3 getting the Moody boosts and unfailing dodges of its life).
Final Gambit is the most suitable move for learning target priorization / trainer roster strategy in Doubles, because it forces you to make trades but also trades for almost anything. Max HP Staraptor proved amusingly able to take 2HKO damage even after Brave Bird recoil. U-turn allows you to switch from Rotom while having Rotom out T2 anyway, which the team needed given that it "plays fair" (read: loses early).
SD Scizor was essential to the team as a win condition behind the three "positional" goodstuffs. Protect/Sub is the way for Garchomp.
A precursor of this had physical Scarf Landorus-T as the lead and Hydreigon instead of Garchomp. It didn't work that well because Hydreigon is a poor Tailwind setter, and that team is worth remembering only for the use of Fly on Landorus (lol) as a pseudo-Protect and Shiinotic check.
Cotton Tree (400) (Cottonee / Xurkitree / Kommo-o / Kangaskhan)
Played: some time in 2019
Influenced by: mixing 4K with Jumpman16's Subway Doubles team
This team hates Greninja34 for its T1 Water Shuriken / Blizzard ambiguity, and Blizzard leads in general. Xurk had a defensive EV spread; not much investment is needed for Tail Glow / Beast Boost to work. Air Balloon is best (was Lum Berry). The team is technically undefeated because I had switched to 4K mid-streak, but is best regarded as a loss at that point because I felt it inevitable that it would; it's worse.
Night Shift (HGSS Doubles, ~200) (Dusknoir / Shiftry / Snorlax / Machamp)
Played: 2019
Influenced by: ReptoAbysmal (note Iron Ball Machamp); Eisenherz's MimiLax; the absence of non-FEAR Trick Room on the HGSS leaderboard
Dusknoir @ Lum Berry
- Trick Room
- Night Shade
- Gravity
- Destiny Bond [?]
Snorlax @ Life Orb
Thick Fat
- Self-Destruct
- Return
- Fire Punch
- Protect
Machamp @ Iron Ball
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge
- Fling
- Protect
Attempts to break the top 10 streaks on the HGSS leaderboard without resorting to FEAR ended in failure. This was the least failing of them. HGSS ended up frustrating to play due to its emphasis on hax (also seen in Gen3; it was the Subway that majorly changed the nature of opposing sets); most egregiously, there is a trainer type specializing in sets with OHKO moves. Dusknoir also turns out to be OHKO'd, inexorably, by Mismagius' critical Shadow Ball, coming from a set which holds Focus Sash; this is why the attempt was ill-starred from the cradle.
Explosion teams need something for Steels, which invites a Fighting-type (given that Endeavor is not available), and Ghosts. Machamp's speed tier is only serviceable in Trick Room, not good (a lesson I learnt from Repto); hence Iron Ball, which also addresses Ghosts via Fling. The best part of Machamp is not dropping Def/SpD after attacking.
Why did I ever play Singles (Adv Singles, ~200, ~400) (Latias / Blissey / Scizor)
Played in: mid-2019, also in 2020
Influenced by: Peterko / Jumpman16 using Latias in HGSS Singles; Mega Salamence/Aegislash/Chansey
Sturdy makes Sawk usable. Rock Slide is for Volcarona (Quiver Dance being a threat) and Ice Workers; the miss chance is what it is, you'd rather have a 90% chance to push Volc into Sucker Punch range than 0%. Taunt, if it was that, helps with Trick Room leads, since many of them resist Close Combat, although sometimes letting the enemy set TR is correct anyway.
The team needed a priority user and a Steel-type. Bisharp works akin to Scizor while also incorporating a Kartana-esque Sash. It's my favourite innovation. For one, it does not lose to Chandelure, which the leads don't like much already.
Milotic's role was one I had not used before; it does nothing on this team but take hits, inflict chip, check / distract from Blizzard, and neutralize the bevy of setup sets that otherwise threaten its goodstuffs team-mates. Thus the seemingly absurd combination of Rest and Recover on the same set -- different purposes; one beats Toxic stallers, one is for positioning (including stalling out enemy TR).
I never could replicate the success (edit: relatively, not absolutely, speaking) of the initial run; I'm not sure if it was due to the usual fatigue setting in or the team having lucked out once.
----
Conclusion: I've invariably failed to reach my goals and wish I had not spent time on this game (over 1000 hours in total, including such meaningless drudgery as breeding), but can't change that I did now. Here's to moving on, however the irony undermines me that I couldn't resist making this post after all.
If you want to do me a favour, just desist from clicking a reaction.
edit: I forgot to add "Unfortunate doesn't begin to describe my series" but I think I'm well-served anyway. Kudos to the one guy who clicked Haha; if nobody had, something would be missing karmically.
Reporting a current Super Doubles streak of 200 WINS...
Intro: This is a very similar team to my last report with one obvious change and a couple slight changes to returning Mons' EV-Spreads and/or movesets. I hope y'all won't mind if I only highlight the changes to preexisting sets and the team's new member and not dive too deep into repeating info...
Mega-Latias: Latias is the team's newest member and, sadly, had to replace the original team's stand-out member, Articuno. What made Articuno a personal favorite was it's bulk, access to Tailwind, Pressure, neutrality to Ice, immunity to Ground, and it's ability to handle Gyarados and Mega-Venusaur (the two banes of my Battle Tree streaks). Unfortunately, it seems Articuno could only make it so far and I needed a Mon that could fill all those roles PLUS more!
Enter Mega-Latias! Mega-Latias trades an Ice neutrality for a 2x weakness but maintains Tailwind, a Ground immunity, and ability to beat Gyarados and Mega-Venusaur. What Latias also brings to the table (that the team really needed) is it's Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Psychic resistance, MUCH more bulk, Psychic STAB, and a faster Heal Pulse. Having Heal Pulse on Latias also let's Fini run Taunt which is more utility the team needed.
Latias Benchmarks:
- 60 Speed EVs outs Mega-Latias at 151Spd. 151 is a CRUCIAL Speed Tier because, in Tailwind, it outspeed literally every un-boosted Mon in the Battle Tree
- Mega-Gyarados Crunch does 73% max to Latias and Latias 2HKOs back with T-Bolt after Incin's Fake Out
- Mega-Gengar does 76% max with Shadow Ball and Latias OHKOs back guaranteed
- Latias 2HKOs Mega-Venusaur guaranteed
- OHKOs all non Mega-Gyarados guaranteed
Tapu Fini:
- Fini went from 113Spd to 115 which is basically to outrun Scarf Typhlosion to weaken it's Eruption
- In Tailwind, Fini outspeeds everything except Aerodactyl-1, Manectric-4, Garchomp-3, Entei-3, and Terrakion-4
- Dropped Heal Pulse for Taunt to shut down Trick Room and Pain Split in particular. Taunt also helps shut down annoying Mons like Dusknoirs, Cresselia, Mandibuzz, Regigigas, Blissey, etc
Incineroar:
- Went from 81Spd to 91 specifically to outspeed Mega-Lucario in Tailwind but outspeeding Gengar, Froslass, Latias/os, Gallade, Genies, and Lake Guardians can be HUGE
Threats:
- Rotom formes: they're just annoying status spammers and Mega-Latias doesn't handle them as well as Articuno
- Powerful Dark types: having a new weakness to Dark on the team made me realize how many Dark types there are in the Battle Tree lol
Welp, there's a quick report... I've been trying to upload some pics but something keeps going wrong on my end! I will keep trying but if you see this before they're up, they will be soon! Posting the report now so I don't need to type it again if something else happens and I lose it all!!
I have been grinding a lot lately and I have finally achieved my goal of 1000 wins in super doubles! Chansey is finally at the 1k club :D It took so long and got pretty boring sometimes but it's finally done. There were a few more close calls but only one real nailbiter, which leads to me to believe that the team is more viable for a really long streak than I thought. It has nearly no weaknesses because of great type synergy, misty terrain nullifying status hax, and mega mence being nearly guaranteed to get up tailwind because of its great speed, allowing excadrill or tapu fini to sweep a lot of teams.
Some more goodstuffs about the team-
-The three spread moves of earthquake, hyper voice, and dazzling gleam are great for achieving double KOs
-Mence and drill often end up sweeping teams by themselves- for example, Kikijuro (mono electric), Xenophon (mono grass), and Xio (mono fairy) all get shredded by mence or drill once tailwind goes up.
-Double swapping on turn one to chansey and fini is often a great play if the lead matchup is poor (especially against intimidators) as my backline has a good matchup vs most threats to the frontline, and fini can spam an attack while chansey keeps itself and fini healthy with heal pulse and soft-boiled
-Knowing that chansey can checkmate a lot of things with its massive bulk can allow me to leave them alone sometimes and focus on bigger threats- nearly all non-boosting special and most physical attackers fall into this category for chansey, and lots of boosters and evasion spammers are nullified by fini's trick, especially suicune, blissey, regigigas, and ferrothorn. Trick can also be good for zapdos-2 if it decides to connect..
-Having two pokemon with protect on the frontline can allow me to scout a lot of sets on turn one and then decide what to do- this is especially helpful for trainers that can have sets 1 through 4 like Abel and for pokemon such as politoed which may or may not be threatening
-Specific matchups-
For sun trainers- even though excadrill is weak to fire and outsped by most fire types, it usually baits their attacks and allows mence to get tailwind up and sweep with eq + double-edge.
For rain trainers- I usually double switch on turn one if I can't get a double KO, but sometimes I am willing to sacrifice mence to get tailwind up to allow fini and drill to sweep. Fini and chansey have such a great matchup vs. rain to the point where it's practically a free win.
For sand trainers- Drill + Fini have a great matchup them because they can spam scald or iron head/earthquake. I'm usually willing to sacrifice mence for tailwind against sand, but they rarely have the opportunity to OHKO it.
For speed trainers- Get tailwind up ASAP! This will nearly always ensure a victory, but if this is impossible or if flinches are a threat, chansey has a good matchup vs. most speed trainers because their attacks don't hit very hard and chansey is so bulky. She can wear everything down with seismic toss, as well as healing its partner. Just watch out for taunt from weavile, crobat, and electrode >:(
For trick room- Most trick roomers can be taken out instantly by mence and drill, except for mega slowbro, cofagrigus, dusknoir (has an abysmal chance to live iron head + double edge) and cresselia. My backline matches up well against them all, but mega slowbro is a threat because it can dent fini with psychic pretty hard. Heal pulse is very useful for trick room, so I spam it a lot- I have always been able to stall it out this way and chipped everything down with fini until trick room expired.
For intimidate spammers- Tapu fini has a good matchup vs. a lot of them so I usually get tailwind up and end up sweeping with hyper voice and fini's attacks. This isn't a great matchup in general though because drill and mence don't like intimidate, so it's important to preserve fini. It's always funny when nothing rolls intimidate as well.
General Notes
-Sometimes it's worth sacrificing salamence or allowing it to get paralyzed in order to get tailwind up! I sometimes do this when the opposing trainer's roster or frontline walls mence but not drill and fini. I consider tailwind a top priority for speed trainers, ezra and christian (for mega zam, mega gengar, and latios), kikujiro, and colress (to ensure drill sweeps). It's also desirable to avoid being flinched by random crap
-Mold breaker is amazing! The rotom forms are notoriously annoying for spamming thunder wave and being decently bulky, but excadrill destroys them all (except the fan) with earthquake with a little prior damage from mence. Being able to ignore sturdy for magnezone, bastiodon, and carbink is really helpful and ignoring solid rock and filter is great for carracosta (dies to eq + hyper voice) and mega aggron.
-I try not to earthquake my own partner with drill, but sometimes it's necessary- fini avoids the 2HKO without a crit, and chansey doesn't take much, so it's not so bad to do so. I have forgotten once or twice that it will hit my own partner, but I got away with it :)
-I only use rock slide when I absolutely have to or I lose nothing from it, but there has been an occasion or two where it was near necessary and I had to risk it. This situation is extremely rare and I doubt it will ever result in a loss.
-If an opposing pokemon has blizzard, I almost never leave excadrill in vs. it because I don't want to be frozen. I will either double up on the threat or swap in tapu fini.
-Try not to lock tapu fini into an attack that the opponent can take advantage of, especially if tailwind isn't up- for example, being locked into moonblast is bad if a volcarona comes out, whereas being locked into scald is bad if a gyarados comes out. Looking up trainer rosters is helpful for this
-Chansey's speed tier is so good vs. mega mawile and the regis! I can swap in chansey to take a play rough, an ice beam, or even a continental crush from regirock and safely heal up next turn if its partner isn't threatening. Although chansey is probably the least used member, it is really important for taking big hits, because my backline doesn't have a rock or fairy resist. Sometimes, I even decide to let chansey take a hit that fini would resist because chansey takes around the same amount of damage. If only chansey got regenerator...
-I always note when abilities activate at the start of the battle because they can tell me what sets I'm facing. For example, if entei's pressure activates before mence's intimidate, I know it's the scarf set. And if gardevoir's trace activates before drill's mold breaker, I know it's the max speed set and not the mega set. I don't think this applies to unnerve though because it seems to always go first..
Replays
No. 805 T96G-WWWW-WWXE-HMDJ (Walrein, Infernape, Mudsdale, Avalugg)
Walrein-4 goes on a rampage, dodges 3 attacks, and hits 2 OHKO moves out of 3. This is one of the few times that kartana would be better than excadrill on this team (cause of leaf blade). Clearly Walrein-4 belongs on this team's threatlist, but that's true for most teams. No. 824 NGKG-WWWW-WWXE-HMDU (Walrein, Milotic, Archeops, Gigalith)
Guess who's back?? (Without Me starts blaring) The threat of Sheer bullshit entices me to launch an all out attack, ignoring the beautiful yet deadly Tender Pokemon. Then, rock slide flinching! Fun fun fun No. 896 8YDG-WWWW-WWXE-HMEB (Slowbro, Bronzong, Frost-Rotom, Rhyperior)
I mostly saved this one because mega slowbro OHKOd its partner rhyperior with surf in a desperate attempt to KO excadrill xD but it also shows how the team deals with trick room relatively well. No. 1,000 9FRW-WWWW-WWXE-HMEF (Liepard, Honchkrow, Bisharp, Scrafty)
Number 1000 is a really easy win- Chansey and friends finally reach four digits!
Side note- I have a couple other doubles teams cooked up that I would like some feedback on if anyone is interested....
Hi, back again with my battle tree update.
Did 10 battles this time, got to 530.
Again, pretty fun to do, really should play more often all though it's probably going to be a few months again.
I really don't remember much from my streak tbh, it's been years and my memory isn't the greatest, haven't found much issues while playing though.
Just lost a super singles streak at 104, team has an incredible amount of trouble with ferrothorn, so if anyone has suggestions of what to replace to help with that I’d appreciate it.
The team is
Salamance @ salamencite
intimidate
leech seed
heavy slam
toxic
protect
careful
248 hp/28 def/232 spdef
gliscor@toxic orb
poison heal
earthquake
protect
toxic
substitute
careful
212 hp/4 atk/36 def/252 spdef/4 speed
this is taken directly from the mastering the maison thing for xy/oras, i haven’t really looked at the pokémon in the tree to see if the 4 speed is necessary
Most of my climb was done with an assault vest goodra
goodra@assault vest
sap sipper
dragon pulse
sludge bomb
ice beam
flamethrower
modest
252 hp/164 def/52 spatk/40 spdef
the goodra obviously does better against every ferrothorn because of flamethrower, but it seems like a weaker pokémon overall. I guess since the team doesn’t really have other problems maybe it’s better than gliscor for climbing, but idk.
(the pokémon were gotten from creatorpi since i’m too lazy to actually breed pokémon, so if that disqualifies me from leaderboard contention i’d prefer to be up front about it)
replay is NBLG-WWWW-WWXE-YY8N
I played pretty poorly against the ferrothorn too, i’m not really sure why i kept using earthquake, probably if i spammed return i would’ve gotten there.
edit: another solution i came up with for the ferrothorn problem (and I guess foretress as well if there are any of those) was to teach flamethrower (with no investment) to salamanca over dragon claw since claw doesn’t do all that much on the set. I think this leaves me open to some of the rotom forms (in particular, frost) a bit more than I currently am, but not by much. It’s also possible that earthquake could be done away with in favour of (brick break?) some other piece of coverage, but I’m not really sure. In any case, I’m starting the streak over with these pokémon, using goodra over gliscor for now. I’ve also played around with suicune and originally started with mimikyu, but neither of those help with ferrothorn a whole lot it feels like. The mimikyu had lum berry, maybe a z-shadow claw could get there instead?
Just lost a super singles streak at 104, team has an incredible amount of trouble with ferrothorn, so if anyone has suggestions of what to replace to help with that I’d appreciate it.
The team is
Salamance @ salamencite
intimidate
leech seed
heavy slam
toxic
protect
careful
248 hp/28 def/232 spdef
gliscor@toxic orb
poison heal
earthquake
protect
toxic
substitute
careful
212 hp/4 atk/36 def/252 spdef/4 speed
this is taken directly from the mastering the maison thing for xy/oras, i haven’t really looked at the pokémon in the tree to see if the 4 speed is necessary
Most of my climb was done with an assault vest goodra
goodra@assault vest
sap sipper
dragon pulse
sludge bomb
ice beam
flamethrower
modest
252 hp/164 def/52 spatk/40 spdef
the goodra obviously does better against every ferrothorn because of flamethrower, but it seems like a weaker pokémon overall. I guess since the team doesn’t really have other problems maybe it’s better than gliscor for climbing, but idk.
(the pokémon were gotten from creatorpi since i’m too lazy to actually breed pokémon, so if that disqualifies me from leaderboard contention i’d prefer to be up front about it)
replay is NBLG-WWWW-WWXE-YY8N
I played pretty poorly against the ferrothorn too, i’m not really sure why i kept using earthquake, probably if i spammed return i would’ve gotten there.
edit: another solution i came up with for the ferrothorn problem (and I guess foretress as well if there are any of those) was to teach flamethrower (with no investment) to salamanca over dragon claw since claw doesn’t do all that much on the set. I think this leaves me open to some of the rotom forms (in particular, frost) a bit more than I currently am, but not by much. It’s also possible that earthquake could be done away with in favour of (brick break?) some other piece of coverage, but I’m not really sure. In any case, I’m starting the streak over with these pokémon, using goodra over gliscor for now. I’ve also played around with suicune and originally started with mimikyu, but neither of those help with ferrothorn a whole lot it feels like. The mimikyu had lum berry, maybe a z-shadow claw could get there instead?
Just lost a super singles streak at 104, team has an incredible amount of trouble with ferrothorn, so if anyone has suggestions of what to replace to help with that I’d appreciate it.
You're right in that Dragon Claw is replaceable. There's pretty much no situation in which it's significantly stronger than Return for it to matter to begin with. I'd recommend replacing it with Roost, which allows you to set up on an extremely wide variety of mons, including things such as Carracosta. I'd also recommend moving your 4 HP EVs to Special Defense so as to give the Porygons an Attack boost from Download.
celesteela @ leftovers
beast boost
leech seed
heavy slam
toxic
protect
careful
248 hp/28 def/232 spdef
Since both of your other members are 4x weak to ice, this should ideally be something that can switch in on and win against every Ice mon in the tree, even if it gets frozen on the switch. While celesteela does beat a large variety of Ice types, there's two things that are awful for it in the context of being an ice counter.
1) It has no way to deal with being frozen. Freeze is something that happens occasionally, and if it happens to this Celesteela, your team is toast.
2) It can be overpowered by Water-types that use Ice attacks, as well as the common Rotom-Frost.
Because of these things, and to prevent your team from losing outright to a lead Rotom-Frost3, I'd recommend using a water type as your ice counter. Suicune and Tapu Fini are the best options here, because Tapu Fini is outright immune to Freeze and Suicune can thaw itself instantly with Scald. Now, you may be wondering how a water type would prevent you from losing to an Ice/Electric type. If you switch your water in on the turn 1 blizzard, you can then switch to Gliscor on the Electric move turn 2, with Misty terrain preventing the AI from selecting Will-o-Wisp.
gliscor@toxic orb
poison heal
earthquake
protect
toxic
substitute
careful
212 hp/4 atk/36 def/252 spdef/4 speed
this is taken directly from the mastering the maison thing for xy/oras, i haven’t really looked at the pokémon in the tree to see if the 4 speed is necessary
This is pretty much a standard Gliscor set. Regarding the EVs, it's common practice to split leftover EVs so that you're investing in five stats. Due to how EVs work at level 50, you get an extra stat point for the first 4 EVs you invest, but only gain a point for every 8 EVs after that. This means that if you were to remove, say, the four EVs in Attack and drop that stat by a point, there would be no stat you could invest in that would give you that stat point back. Of course, the 4 speed EVs help to break speed ties with opposing uninvested base 95s, such as Drapion4 and Electivire3.
Just lost a super singles streak at 104, team has an incredible amount of trouble with ferrothorn, so if anyone has suggestions of what to replace to help with that I’d appreciate it.
The team is
Salamance @ salamencite
intimidate
leech seed
heavy slam
toxic
protect
careful
248 hp/28 def/232 spdef
gliscor@toxic orb
poison heal
earthquake
protect
toxic
substitute
careful
212 hp/4 atk/36 def/252 spdef/4 speed
this is taken directly from the mastering the maison thing for xy/oras, i haven’t really looked at the pokémon in the tree to see if the 4 speed is necessary
Most of my climb was done with an assault vest goodra
goodra@assault vest
sap sipper
dragon pulse
sludge bomb
ice beam
flamethrower
modest
252 hp/164 def/52 spatk/40 spdef
the goodra obviously does better against every ferrothorn because of flamethrower, but it seems like a weaker pokémon overall. I guess since the team doesn’t really have other problems maybe it’s better than gliscor for climbing, but idk.
(the pokémon were gotten from creatorpi since i’m too lazy to actually breed pokémon, so if that disqualifies me from leaderboard contention i’d prefer to be up front about it)
replay is NBLG-WWWW-WWXE-YY8N
I played pretty poorly against the ferrothorn too, i’m not really sure why i kept using earthquake, probably if i spammed return i would’ve gotten there.
edit: another solution i came up with for the ferrothorn problem (and I guess foretress as well if there are any of those) was to teach flamethrower (with no investment) to salamanca over dragon claw since claw doesn’t do all that much on the set. I think this leaves me open to some of the rotom forms (in particular, frost) a bit more than I currently am, but not by much. It’s also possible that earthquake could be done away with in favour of (brick break?) some other piece of coverage, but I’m not really sure. In any case, I’m starting the streak over with these pokémon, using goodra over gliscor for now. I’ve also played around with suicune and originally started with mimikyu, but neither of those help with ferrothorn a whole lot it feels like. The mimikyu had lum berry, maybe a z-shadow claw could get there instead?
Just to get the most out of your EVs, there's a couple changes you might want to make:
Celesteela: 244Hp - 36Def - 228SpD
Goodra: 252Hp - 164Def - 52SpA - 36SpD - 4Spe
Any stat I removed 4EVs from, will remain the same number when battling in the Tree at level 50, but the 8EVs to Celesteela's Def will add 1-point and the 4EVs added to Goodra's Speed will also add 1-point! It's just the weird way EVs work. You always want to invest in an ODD amount of stats and the amount of EVs you invest should always be a number divisible by 8.
Side Note: you want to evolve in an odd number of stats / always invest with an amount divisible by 8 UNLESS the spread is for a Trick Room team and you want 0-Speed and ARE NOT investing in BOTH Atk/SpA for a Mixed-Attacker. Adding 4EVs to a stat with 0IV won't actually add a point. However, if you're building a Mon for a team that has a Trick Room mode but isn't a HARD Trick Room team that doesn't really NEED 0-Speed IV/EV, you can dump the leftover 4 EVs in Speed.
Lol! It's all unnecessarily convoluted but every stat point can end up mattering in the Battle Tree if you ask me!!
Having a bit of joy at the moment with the below team in Battle Tree Doubles, but I'm not convinced on the final Pokémon;
Weavile @ Focus Sash
Pressure | Jolly Nature | 6HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Protect / Knock Off / Ice Punch / Fake Out
A Pokémon I absolutely adore using and the only non-negotiable member of my team. Fake Out to get Gardevoir mega-evolved, Focus Sash allows me to bait when required to allow Gardevoir to spam Hyper Voice. Generally covers me with Trick Room due to a significant number of TR-setters being weak to Dark, but I do need to be careful when I can't Fake Out suspect leads such as Dusclops. EVs are simple, be as fast as possible and hit as hard as possible.
Originally Mega-Mawile but I hated Play Rough's accuracy. Mega Gardevoir is faster and had spread moves which usually allows Weavile to grab a KO on T2. Generally speaking, my tactic is simply to get at least one Pokémon immobilised (either by KO, Fake Out or both) T1, which gets the ball rolling. I've got Shadow Ball on over Thunderbolt (for example) simply for Trick Room leads where I don't feel Weavile will flinch/faint and double up; otherwise very rarely used. EVs haven't been particularly calculated, mainly same as Weavile.
Landorus-T @ Life Orb
Sheer Force | Naive | 6 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Earth Power / Protect / Sludge Bomb / Rock Slide
Only Naive as that's the only special orientated HA Landorus I have, but I do have the facility to go back and get a Timid or Hasty one if I have the urge; otherwise allows me to use Rock Slide without penalising it further. Never really realised how hard he hits until I'd put him in the back; he generally cleans up where Weavile and M-Gardevoir fail. I feel the synergy works well between the three of them, but I am wary of Hail and Rain teams.
The odd one out. Swampert was picked because I wanted a water type at the back, offers some bulk whilst hitting relatively hard but in all honesty I don't love him. He was originally a M-Swampert I had for another team, hence the strange EVs. His typing is what I really wanted him for and I don't think Quagsire suits an environment like Doubles nor do I think Seismitoad has the bulk I desire although would give me a huge Rain-team defence with his HA. Typing this out, I could potentially consider him. He's there mainly to offer some bulk, a *bit* of a nuke with Waterium-Z and cover type weaknesses elsewhere.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Swampert offers me coverage, Water typing and physical moves whilst providing bulk, but in all honesty he's not particularly doing much for this team. I'm currently up to about 80 wins with a few close shaves but usually been my lack of attention that has gotten me into that position.
If it has to be Water/Ground, Gastrodon is alright, and at least much better than Swampert at checking rain (hail specialists don't exist post-50 save for Sina in Sun) and Trick Room. @ Groundium Z, Earth Power / Icy Wind / Recover (or Scald, which checks Blizzard better) / Protect. Assault Vest is a viable alternative.
If it has to be a Water-type, Tapu Fini is generally the best option because shutting down status is essential to long streaks and it's one of the best setup users (Calm Mind). I'd recommend putting it next to Weavile in the front. You could also try a Specs set (with Icy Wind?)
I'd also consider an Electrium Z user (Koko, or perhaps Rotom-W if you're that worried about rain) or Scarfed Xurkitree for the last slot.
IMO put Grass Knot on Landorus instead of Rock Slide. Shadow Ball seems quite marginal on Gardevoir, especially since you can hit all the targets with Weavile. I'd replace it (Taunt, Icy Wind, Ally Switch, Reflect, Disable, Encore all seem like better moves).
I don't know how to build for long streaks but 200 should be doable.
Also turskain used a Weavile/Shell Smash Crustle lead pair in Subway to get iirc 308 (no write-up, sadly).
Having a bit of joy at the moment with the below team in Battle Tree Doubles, but I'm not convinced on the final Pokémon;
Weavile @ Focus Sash
Pressure | Jolly Nature | 6HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Protect / Knock Off / Ice Punch / Fake Out
A Pokémon I absolutely adore using and the only non-negotiable member of my team. Fake Out to get Gardevoir mega-evolved, Focus Sash allows me to bait when required to allow Gardevoir to spam Hyper Voice. Generally covers me with Trick Room due to a significant number of TR-setters being weak to Dark, but I do need to be careful when I can't Fake Out suspect leads such as Dusclops. EVs are simple, be as fast as possible and hit as hard as possible.
Originally Mega-Mawile but I hated Play Rough's accuracy. Mega Gardevoir is faster and had spread moves which usually allows Weavile to grab a KO on T2. Generally speaking, my tactic is simply to get at least one Pokémon immobilised (either by KO, Fake Out or both) T1, which gets the ball rolling. I've got Shadow Ball on over Thunderbolt (for example) simply for Trick Room leads where I don't feel Weavile will flinch/faint and double up; otherwise very rarely used. EVs haven't been particularly calculated, mainly same as Weavile.
Landorus-T @ Life Orb
Sheer Force | Naive | 6 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Earth Power / Protect / Sludge Bomb / Rock Slide
Only Naive as that's the only special orientated HA Landorus I have, but I do have the facility to go back and get a Timid or Hasty one if I have the urge; otherwise allows me to use Rock Slide without penalising it further. Never really realised how hard he hits until I'd put him in the back; he generally cleans up where Weavile and M-Gardevoir fail. I feel the synergy works well between the three of them, but I am wary of Hail and Rain teams.
The odd one out. Swampert was picked because I wanted a water type at the back, offers some bulk whilst hitting relatively hard but in all honesty I don't love him. He was originally a M-Swampert I had for another team, hence the strange EVs. His typing is what I really wanted him for and I don't think Quagsire suits an environment like Doubles nor do I think Seismitoad has the bulk I desire although would give me a huge Rain-team defence with his HA. Typing this out, I could potentially consider him. He's there mainly to offer some bulk, a *bit* of a nuke with Waterium-Z and cover type weaknesses elsewhere.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Swampert offers me coverage, Water typing and physical moves whilst providing bulk, but in all honesty he's not particularly doing much for this team. I'm currently up to about 80 wins with a few close shaves but usually been my lack of attention that has gotten me into that position.
You should give Swampert an EV spread of 148Hp, 252Atk, 108Speed. 148 EVs will give you the same stat as 152 at level 50. Same goes for 104EVs and 100 so if you take 4EVs from HP and add to Speed, your HP stat will remain the same but your Speed gain a point!
Lol just the weird nuances of EV mechanics
Hello everyone. I would like to point out that there is some flaw in the battle tree damage calculator that makes some of the damage calcs slightly incorrect. Unfortunately I figured this out after it just cost me a game. Here is an example-
236+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 160-189 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This calc is from the battle tree calculator and is wrong because a porygon-z just lived my lele's psychic in-game. I'm 100% sure I have the correct evs of 236 and the correct nature of modest.
236+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 159-187 (99.3 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
This calc is from the standard calculator on Showdown and must be right.
To everyone playing in the battle tree, I recommend that you use the standard calculator on showdown until this (maybe) is fixed.
Hello everyone. I would like to point out that there is some flaw in the battle tree damage calculator that makes some of the damage calcs slightly incorrect. Unfortunately I figured this out after it just cost me a game. Here is an example-
236+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 160-189 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This calc is from the battle tree calculator and is wrong because a porygon-z just lived my lele's psychic in-game. I'm 100% sure I have the correct evs of 236 and the correct nature of modest.
236+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 159-187 (99.3 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
This calc is from the standard calculator on Showdown and must be right.
To everyone playing in the battle tree, I recommend that you use the standard calculator on showdown until this (maybe) is fixed.
Have you got a perfect IV in Special Attack, and does the Porygon-Z have perfect Special Defense and HP IVs? That could be what has happened here - one of the calcs was done with a perfect IV of 31 and the other with a lower one.
Odds are that you were facing Porygon-Z3, which invests in HP. This makes the calc vs. Lele's Psychic look like this: 236+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 160-189 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That said, I have confirmed the discrepancy between the two calculators. Odds are this happens due to some multiplier (likely Psychic Terrain's) being applied at a different time in the calculators, which explains why I haven't ever noticed something like this across nearly 3000 battles.
I'm 100 percent sure it was porygon-z4 because it outsped and ohkod my sharpedo with thunderbolt which promptly caused me to lose the game. YEs my tapu lele has 31 ivs in special attack. It took place at around battle 300 so all of the AI's ivs should be perfect. You can also check for yourselves that the calcuations I have posted are actually different when using the battle tree calculator and the showdown calculator.
To all who use modest tapu lele, I think it would be worth investing 244 evs instead of 236 into spatk to guarantee the ohko on p-z4 :)
So the issue seems to be that on Turskain's calc (and on the to-metrion calc), modifiers are applied slightly differently from the Showdown calc, which corresponds to the games. This is literally just an inconsistency between rounding methods, but we've just seen that rounding errors can lose games. Fortunately, there is a mild fix - Terrain modifiers appear to affect move power directly, so for borderline calcs you can simply disable the Terrain and write in the new Base Power (135 for Psychic, 120 for Psyshock, 97 for Psybeam). This appears to give the same result as the Showdown calc as far as I could find.
Odds are that you were facing Porygon-Z3, which invests in HP. This makes the calc vs. Lele's Psychic look like this: 236+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z in Psychic Terrain: 160-189 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That said, I have confirmed the discrepancy between the two calculators. Odds are this happens due to some multiplier (likely Psychic Terrain's) being applied at a different time in the calculators, which explains why I haven't ever noticed something like this across nearly 3000 battles.
Doesn't seem like the case here but I've messed up PLENTY of calcs by forgetting that Psychic, Grassy, and Electric Terrain only boost types of those moves by .33 now instead of .5 like in Gen7!
Seeing the .33 boost missing on OHKOs or 2HKOs would force unfavorable switches, sacs, or damage and has def cut a few streaks short haha! I still forget about it 25% of the time!!
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