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Battle Tree Discussion and Records

Multi Battle streak with friend of 95. Lost on #96.

Video of Loss (#96): KYEW-WWWW-WWXC-Q5Z4

Team info:

Player 1:
Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
Nature: Mild (+spatk – def)
EVs: 30 atk / 252 spatk / 228 speed
Moves: Flamethrower, Close Combat, Flash Cannon, Clanging Scales
Info: 228 speed puts it at 134 speed at level 50, which puts it at 201 after +1 to outspeed base 130s

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Telepathy -> Pixelate
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 spatk / 4 spdef / 252 speed
Moves: Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Focus Blast, Calm Mind


Player 2:
Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 spatk / 4 spdef / 252 speed
Moves: Boomburst, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Surf

Tapu Lele @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Psychic Surge
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 spatk / 4 spdef / 252 speed
(IVs: 31/2/31/4/31/20 … oops)
Moves: Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power (fire), Focus Blast


Strategy:
Lead Kommo-o and Exploud, Click Z-Clangorous soul to get +1 boosts and click Specs Boomburst. Soundproof Kommo-o and telepathy Gardevoir (pre-mega) avoid the boomburst. Tapu Lele sets up psychic terrain which helps prevent priority moves being able to finish off the +1 Kommo-o. Pixelate Hyper Voice and stab Dazzling gleam in back help to continue the spam the spread moves.

Main threats:
Tsareena – Scarf Play Rough to kill Kommo-o, but also has the threat of HJK into Exploud.
Hawlucha – Flying press kills both leads, flying/fighting combo threatens both but hard to predict which it will target
Latios – outspeeds Kommo-o, likes to throw the specs draco meteor at exploud if we try switching Kommo-o out to Gardevoir, impossible to predict.
Mega Metagross – what we lost to, if we had seen it before it was in back and not a lead so Kommo-o was +1 and outsped to hit it with flamethrower.

Moving Forward:
Probably want to run protect over flash cannon on Kommo-o since Exploud OHKOs some of the turn 1 threats, that way we have another option over risking the switch to Gardevoir. Tapu Lele did finish out a few games, and it’s hard to say just how helpful the psychic terrain was, but we might want to trade it for something that is able to revenge kill Mega Metagross or other fast threats that can prevent Kommo-o getting the +1. The main issue was just the unpredictability of things like Latios, which would often draco meteor into Exploud to outplay the Kommo-o switch to Gardevoir. It was a constant battle of guarantee sacrifice of a lead or risking the wrong prediction and ending up with a hard switch and a KO and not ending up in a better position from it.
With protect on Kommo-o, battles like the one we lost to mega metagross could possibly be saved by hitting a specs fire blast to KO it while Kommo-o protects.

I will say that we generally didn’t have bad luck with hacks or anything against us, more often got crits in our favor.

This team started off as a joke but ended up working surprisingly well, especially since neither of us had much experience with the threats of Battle Tree yet over Battle Maison.
Thanks for reading.
 
Hey all just popping in to share this new spreadsheet I made which I think is like a simpler alternative to my previous MU Analysis sheet.

Threat protection checklist:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PJC7aStElsP7dpAdUAU0gZGIk0HinaXFtgdIYEWlq04/edit?usp=sharing

Basically you can make a copy of the whole sheet for yourself to edit, duplicate the template page, and check which supposed threats you have multiple or single countermeasures against to help assess your team. Admittedly some threats may be minor or somewhat redundant (and could try weighting differently in future updates) but it is intended to be comprehensive. See a few examples of teams I had filled in.

Also wanted to mention I believe these kind of magic numbers for speed stat that can be EV'ed accordingly. Mega Alakazam's 222 speed is the fastest non scarfed. So a speed stat of 149 with a +1 boost from Dragon Dance/scarf etc., or a speed stat of 112 with a +2 boost from Agility/Tailwind/Swift Swim etc. will guarantee outspeed everything not scarfed after boosting. And the scarfers can be accounted for by switching to a mon that counters choiced move, so not too worrisome.

Otherwise I've been tracking all my personal singles records and have got frustratingly close to 100 streak with a unique Naganadel/Bronzong/Mega Gyarados team and others. It has become clear to me that the optimal way to play is to actually look up the opposing trainers and sets every battle to be best prepared for anything and carefully calculate almost every move. Honestly guess I just haven't always had the patience for that and have enjoyed trying out many different teams too much lol.
 
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Add this to the stamp run team list:

Salamence @ Salamencite (BAD Dragon)
4 HP/252 Atk/16 Sp. Def /239 Spd
Jolly Nature, Intimidate
Dragon Dance
Substitute
Roost
Return

Aegislash @ Leftovers (CURSED Sword)
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant Nature
King's Shield
Swords Dance
Shadow Sneak
Sacred Sword

Linoone @ Sitrus Berry (Badger)
246 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Brave Nature (no luck getting Adamant this round, Minted it in Sw/Sh)
Baby-Doll Eyes
Belly Drum
Extreme Speed
Play Rough

This streak is still ongoing, and my Shiny Regice was the lucky Ribbon recipient in Battle 50.

Posted the videos in the Discord, but if you need some general idea how the Linoone works, here's my battle with Grimsley in the attachment

-James
 

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Hello everyone, after being disappointed by gen 8 a long hiatus I am here to report a finished streak of 487 in Super Doubles in Ultra Moon.
Once again, I collaborated stole his team consulted with lolnub for the team idea and together we managed to work out something very nice if I do say so myself. Getting real tired of this Strike-through text

Blastoise (M) @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 7 Atk
- Fake Out
- Scald
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere

Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Tailwind
- Protect

Metagross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Bullet Punch
- Stomping Tantrum
- Thunder Punch

Kommo-o-Totem (F) @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Flamethrower
- Protect

It is Z-Kommo-o-Totem with lots of support so it can sweep.
The combination of Blastoise and Kartana is absolutely stunning. They cover each other’s weaknesses about as good as SkarmBliss did in the days of yore. Okay, that is a bit exaggerated but they are pretty dang good.
Blastoise has Fake Out to help set up Tailwind, coupled with Scald over Water Pulse (I'll explain why later on) and standard Dark Fighting coverage for nearly unresisted coverage. Only Fairy/Water, Fairy/Grass and Fairy/Dragon resist the combination of these three attacks.
Fun fact: due to Mega Launcher, all of Blastoise attacks hit equally as hard. Not counting FO of course, you dingus.
Kartana has dual STAB, Tailwind and Protect, nothing too fancy. The only strange thing would be Tailwind, but it works wonders in this team. It is often necessary to set up TW first turn and let Kartana take a hit turn one. This sets up Blastoise to outspeed the opponents. The next turn you can severely dent a mon using Kartana and dent the other with Blastoise. Kartana faints and you have a free switch to Kommo-o to activate your Z-move under TW vs two weakened opponents. You can even pull it off vs one weakened opponent and just target the other one with Blastoise for a double knockout.
To get in this position, you Fake Out + Tailwind turn one unless Blastoise can knock something out while Kartana sets up Tailwind for Kommo-o.

Of course, hard TR teams often require a different approach than that. A Tailwind is obsolete in such a scenario, so Kartana is more inclined to just attack.
Every TR setter in the Tree at least has a chance to be KO’ed by a double-up from M-Blastoise and Kartana. If it is a Fairy type it is dealt with with a Scald and Smart Strike. If it is a Psychic type it is dealt with using Dark Pulse and Leaf Blade. Bronzong is always KO’ed by this combination. Only Cress-4 has a chance to survive this double-up, but it is not in her favor. Then again, it is a Battle Facility, so she will survive am I right?

If an opponent has a team full of Fairies, it is a problem if Kartana is KO’ed by the sheer magnitude of Special moves. A sash helps, but only helps once. Blastoise hits hard, but most Fairies are special defensive behemoths, so he will often 3-HKO the Fairies or worse.
Bring in Metagross to be the last line of defense vs these Fairies. With hard hitting STAB, priority and quite a decent amount of bulk, it can tank quite some hits even some non-resisted moves, courtesy of AV. With Thunder Punch and Clear Body, it can deal with Gyarados, which the rest of the team struggles against.
It also has Stromping Tantrum to deal with Electric types, as they often OHKO M-Blastoise and not wanting to let Kommo-o get paralyzed next turn, AV-Metagross is a decent check to the hard hitting Electric-type attacks. It does bring up one flaw in this team, and that is protection of status, most important of all: paralysis.
We have one Freeze ‘immunity’ in Scald-using Blastoise. Yes, Water Pulse hits harder, but protection vs Freezes is at LEAST 10 times more valuable.
Burn is somewhat problematic, but most of the time Blastoise can deal with it and Kommo-o’s main attacking stat is Special Attack anyway. Katana being burned just means that it is an easy switch to Kommo-o the moment it faints. Just watch out with Metagross really. Sleep is annoying, but is easily played around with Protect using Kartana, Fake Out and another Protect using mon in Kommo-o coupled with clever switching. VS paralysis, it is often times hoping that it does not harm this team TOO much. It can be played around using Tailwind and Fake Out, but it sadly is quite risky.

Kommo-o itself is pretty straightforward. Mixed, max special attack and speed with dual STAB and flamethrower to round off coverage the team needs vs Ferrothorn and Scizor.
The only real debate imo is the choice of ability with Kommo-o.
All of its abilities are impeccable. Bulletproof is good vs Gengar and weird other moves that get blocked by Bulletproof, while Soundproof is good vs Hyper Voice, Roar and Kommo-o-3.
We actually settled on a completely niche ability in Overcoat. It protects from powder moves and weather. Kommo-o is not really bothered by Rage Powder as CS already hits hard enough and Flamethrower does not pick up KO’s vs 2x weak mons even if Kommo-o is boosted. The protection form Sleep Powder and Spore however is nice if you have already boosted your stats with your Z-move. This was not the main reason why we wanted this Kommo-o though. We wanted the Totem Kommo-o especially because we did not want to be picked up by Sky Drop Pokémon in the Tree.
Kommo-o-Totem is actually too heavy to be picked up so it is not bothered by Sky Drop. Now THAT is situational and did not come into play even once. LOL.
Even so, the protection from chip weather damage and powder moves was worth it, so that did not bother us.

While Metagross was good, it didn’t really deal with the main problem this team has. And that is Electric types and paralysis inducing moves. After contemplating it for a bit, I started using Togedemaru with an Air Balloon (Sash is taken by Kartana and it NEEDS it) and Lightning Rod.
Using the moves Zing Zap, Iron Head, Fake Out and Spiky Shield.
Togedemaru provides a Fairy type counter, Electric type counter, Gyarados check and an extra Fake Out user in the back to support Kommo-o. It does severely hurt in survivability, as Togedemaru has afwul defensive stats. It does patch up the one weakness the team has, but it has not worked out yet for me. I see potential in Togedemaru but maybe it just is not the team for it.

UNSW-WWWW-WWXB-Q6WA

And well, that is about it!
If you have any questions, feel free to ask of course.
See the community Discord and catch me there. Do @ me, as I am not a regular anymore since.... yeah.
 
Furthermore, if you did scan them beforehand, they only work with the save file you had linked to your PGL account on that visit. If you ever start a new save, all those old QR codes will be useless to you, and there's no longer a way to get the new ones corresponding to your new save.
 
Beaver12 said:
OK, so in November I worked on the battle tree lookup google sheet linked on the OP, but got distracted with SwSh and forgot to ever post it. So here is a link to the sheet I made that is essentially that spreadsheet without trainer sprite pictures and with coding that makes the choice scarf speed value actually display and a cleaned up presentation.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LQV6CLYx6PYrlm4oW6QO49jSnDWC4VERWkdi0Cah9Xw/edit?usp=sharing
Click to expand...

Beaver12 said:
I guess just to expand on this since I noticed the OPer hasn't been active in 10 months, would anyone on this forum like me to post the edited spreadsheet workbook? to reiterate it is essentially the same thing as what is pinned on the homepage for this thread, but with a functioning speed tier column and adjusted pokemon sets to represent USUM changes
Click to expand...

This is a better summary of what I changed
 
Cutefluffysheep said:
Saw a couple posts above mentioning that the PGL is gone, so rental teams can no longer be accessed there. If one had the QR codes themselves (or images of them), would it still be possible to scan them and rent the teams? The compendiums I’ve found consist of just PGL links which don’t work any more.

On a side note, I’m kind of looking to get better in general at the Tree (and Maison), where should I start with teambuilding, etc. as a beginner? Are there actual images of QR codes for teams in existence that are may be easier to use for someone like myself who’s just starting out?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the QR codes have to be generated through the PGL. The way they're set up is save file-specific - even if a team has been uploaded, each person who wants to use it has to access it from their own account on the PGL and generate their own QR code, and that QR code would work for no one but them.
It was probably done that way on purpose to stop people from generating fake QR teams with external software - if your game has to use Game Sync to gain access to a QR code for the first time, the PGL can moderate what codes you're able to use and make sure they're ones people have really made and uploaded - but now that the PGL is gone, it just means the feature doesn't work any more. :c
(From what I've heard, you should still be able to use QR codes if you had already used Game Sync, generated them and saved them somewhere, but ones anyone else has saved still won't work for you.)
 
Cutefluffysheep said:
Saw a couple posts above mentioning that the PGL is gone, so rental teams can no longer be accessed there. If one had the QR codes themselves (or images of them), would it still be possible to scan them and rent the teams? The compendiums I’ve found consist of just PGL links which don’t work any more.

On a side note, I’m kind of looking to get better in general at the Tree (and Maison), where should I start with teambuilding, etc. as a beginner? Are there actual images of QR codes for teams in existence that are may be easier to use for someone like myself who’s just starting out?
Click to expand...

As Hematite explained, unfortunately, if you haven't already saved pictures of QR codes that were generated for your own game by the PGL, it's impossible to use QRs anymore.

As for trying to improve, tips would depend on which format you want to tackle, but a great starting point for Maison and Tree is probably TDP and NoCheese's Maison article, it covers a lot of bases and even though it was written just for Maison, a lot of it still applies to the Tree.

I would definitely encourage you to use the resources allowing you to make plans during the battles (the different set lookups and the damage calculator linked in the first post), it definitely makes things longer and more tedious, but the more you use them, the more you'll learn about the sets and the AI, the less often you'll actually need it.

As for teambuilding, taking example on the teams that are highly ranked on the leaderboards is certainly a great start, and the reports also often offers insight into their own teambuilding process, which can be helpful. If you don't want to recreate the exact team someone already did, you can also try creating similar archetypes to these but with some different Pokémon filling the roles.

If you use Discord, don't hesitate to drop by our server if you need help and ideas (or just to chat about your attempts)!
 
sigh

Are we really doing this again. And a pretend TR team which, I can’t decide, is either bait or an insult.

I’m not dissecting this now. Just remember when formally posting your streak that, unlike other teams/formats, I am particularly well acquainted with the speed tiers and threats on this side of the equator and have used all of those pokemon. You can expect my detector to be sensitive.

when i say sensitive, shit like this gives me an aneurysm

68 SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp-Mega: 148-176 (68.8 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar in Sand: 206-246 (99.5 - 118.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (spread penalty)

As ironic as it may be that I ran stabless uninvested Ice Beam on a 50 SpA unit I was at least far more precise with my reasoning than “dragons like Garchomp”

Good thing you can set TR and give both Cress and Tyranitar the jump on any Chomp4s. Hell, there’s a strong chance Vivek/Stellan will do it for you, seeing as the other 95% of their roster outspeeds your team, with plenty of ground and fighting coverage to nuke your muscle, as well as special ice users like Slowbro.
 
Is it necessary to be that rude?
ReptoAbysmal said:
sigh

Are we really doing this again. And a pretend TR team which, I can’t decide, is either bait or an insult.
[...]
when i say sensitive, shit like this gives me an aneurysm
[...]
Click to expand...
Yes it mostly should lose terribly against it, but he did not say Tyranitar can OHKO Garchomp. And being no expert in TR, one should still be able to post a team without having to fear such a tone.

Edit: Well, what Eisenherz said makes sense.
 
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Brucolac said:
Is it necessary to be that rude?

Yes it mostly should lose terribly against it, but he did not say Tyranitar can OHKO Garchomp. And being no expert in TR, one should still be able to post a team without having to fear such a tone.
Click to expand...

The rudeness probably comes from the exasperation of having to deal with a person who has repeatedly attempted to lie their way through, trying once more, this time with a team that is more nonsensical than any other he's submitted in the past. I, for one, am convinced this team has not reached 79 - and couldn't, even in the hands of a competent player.

Repto may have been rude in a slightly more blunt way, but I think Brandon is actually being the rudest here, by trying to repeatedly deceive a community with nonsensical writeups - I see it as an insult to our intelligence, and I'm offended.
 
Brucolac said:
Is it necessary to be that rude?

Yes it mostly should lose terribly against it, but he did not say Tyranitar can OHKO Garchomp. And being no expert in TR, one should still be able to post a team without having to fear such a tone.

Edit: Well, what Eisenherz said makes sense.
Click to expand...

While you can criticize Repto's blunt way of wording things, it doesn't changes the fact that Brandon has tried to lie in the past to the point where he even admitted on using hacked Pokemon after being called out for it and stirred unnecessary drama on both here and in the Discord.

This community is welcoming for those who are looking for help and willing to listen advice from more experienced players so they can improve, but if someone in here starts to lie only for the sake of creating an impression or a false image, you'll be called out by it. It pains me a lot to see that people are still using Vizually's team for the Tree or think they can claim a +1000 win on Emerald using Werster's team and it is an insult to the intelligence of those who spend hours understanding the game's mechanics, research the AI's behavior, scout and prepare for quintessential threats with plenty of scenarios where you even need to pull out a Plan D or E to win.
 
A long while back, I lazily read through some users on the Discord server gushing about how functional non-mega mawile was for some users’ TR randoms squads. After a few pages’ worth of rave reviews, I surmised that, despite the humorous appearances, these people were not joking. Instead of slowly backing away from these mad Scientists, however, something drew me in. Not discovering value in underutilized status moves. Not cleverly maximizing the impact of limited resources. Not crafting a shell to support a novel team member.

No, rather, an idea for a really stupid joke. This is the unfortunate tale of 360 Nostone.

MDDT.png

Featuring:

360 logo.png


WARNING: Strange mixture of serious analysis and utter buffoonery!

​
The concept was simple. The mega evolution mechanic is notorious for bringing awful pokemon beyond the status of legends. The delta of power between some mega and non-mega forms is so ludicrously wide, that I could only marvel at how much of the Pokemon universe is at the mercy of the whims of the ones who decide the numbers. What would happen if I defied their wishes? What if I laughed at their promises of power? What if I sought out the four pokemon who gained the absolute most from their mega form, and ran their normal forms together on one maximally sacrilegious meme team?

In the end, they were the ones laughing at me. I was the one wishing in vain. But after almost two months of near-daily play sessions, after so many miserable hopeless battles that my attempts blurred together, after weeks upon weeks of frustration, floundering, and suffering, as of some time in late February, I could report to you, as I am doing now, on this honest-to-god coincidental date of 4/20, an ended streak of 51 wins in Ultra Moon Doubles. Presenting:

360 Nostone

kangaskhan.gif

Dankey Kang (Kangaskhan) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 50
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Tail Whip
- Drain Punch
- Double-Edge

beedrill.gif

My Bee (Beedrill) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Knock Off
- U-turn

lopunny.gif

1Trick Bunny (Lopunny) (F) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Limber
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Last Resort

mawile.gif

Little Wile (Mawile) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Rock Slide
- Crunch

It was very clear early on that this team would have to be one-dimensional. It didn’t take very many mass calculations to determine that achieving one dimension would already be more than enough of a challenge for this ragtag band of misfits. Three members crumple like rice paper, meaning slow and steady is not a game they want to play, and four members hit like al dente noodles, meaning turn advantage was the only way they’d ever come out on top in a brawl. In the absence of a Trick Room user or any other remotely profitable method of speed control, mindless Tailwind offense seemed like the way to go.

The trial and error phase of design never truly ends for a fundamentally broken project. But after running into impenetrable roadblock after impenetrable roadblock, the team nevertheless managed to iterate in at least noticeable attempts at adaptation. I feel these mons’ sets tell the stories of their trials and tribulations well enough that it’s time to introduce the cast of this comedy-tragedy.

Mega Kangaskhan was so unbelievably prominent in the competitive Pokemon environment that the unthinkable happened - Game Freak caught on. Even after its nerf, its raw rate and all-rounder capabilities leave it at the top of the food chain. Non-mega kangaskhan, on the other hand, is more likely encountered outside the safari zone than in serious discussion of any kind.

The first question I had to answer was which Fake Out user to pair with beedrill. I assumed lop, as it was the higher immediate upside option, the more expendable team member, and the most resilient to opposing status. None of these were saying much, but it seemed legit. As it turned out, losing a team member on turn 1 didn’t end up paying off in the long run, so kang, the only one capable of taking an average hit, stepped up to the plate.

Assault Vest, berries of many flavors, coverage moves as wild as Aqua Tail, kang went through so many iterations as the only remotely flexible and reliable team member. Poor thing had the weight of the team on its shoulders. So at some point, I figured, why not lean into that responsibility further? Instead of eyeing it as a way to squeeze value out of its less powerful teammates, I shifted to thinking about its maximum potential. After one fateful hail mary “fuck it” experiment, its set miraculously took on this new form I envisioned.

That Z-stone isn’t for Double Edge. It’s for Z-Tail Whip. I didn’t even think it was so stupid it might work, I was just leaning all in to the memes. But holy fucking shit, I vowed to never make fun of those Acid Spray cultists in the Discord ever again. Kang raises its attack to accrue some form of advantage against future opponents, while making my entirely physical team actually deal damage to even dedicated physical walls! Drain Punch gives the newly buff kang enough survivability for its boost to actually matter reasonably often, especially when alongside its alluring target frail teammates. The ability to spam Tail Whip against bulky ghosts is absolutely necessary, against rocks and steels legitimately valuable, and against random frailer mons, allows your teammates to edge into the 2, or even 1HKO range sometimes! A Z-Double Edge also has its critical moments, for targets that extremely need to die on turn 2, although you usually need bee + FO to bring the average target down, and you always regret losing out on the attack boost.
Mega Beedrill does one thing - hit. And I hear it hits hard. Non-mega beedrill does one thing - get hit. And hear me, it gets hit hard.

Despite lacking the insane speed and offensive niches of its superior form, beedrill is a blessing in disguise to this team, having access to Tailwind. What’s more, the lack of a mega stone means it can hold a Focus Sash, doubling the survivability of even its mega form! Turn 1, Fake Out and TW. In the face of opposing FO, turn 1 is switch kang to lop and Protect, then go for FO TW on turn 2. In the case of a protect-bypassing move + weather/faster priority, this plan would fail, but why bother pointing out specific confounding scenarios when this team folds to half the tree, even when its only plan is functioning perfectly?

Believe it or not, though, I gained a remarkable amount of respect for my bee. Access to TW or Trick Room is already a high grade in my book, but bee has some interesting moves in its repertoire. I started out with Endeavor, which was actively great, and X-Scissor, which with the almost guaranteed Swarm boost legitimately bludgeoned anything that it hit 2x. Unfortunately, team necessities slowly forced out these fun and powerful moves for stopgap measures - but remember, beedrill actually had the luxury of having a decision to make in the first place! Knock Off is a begrudging concession to the team’s crippling weakness to ghost types, and was an easy replacement for the rarely used Poison Jab. Protect for the weakness to opposing FO. U-Turn is (believe it or not) a noticeable downgrade in damage from X-scissor, but allows a chance to bring a backliner in ASAP against slower teams, a FO user in for seamless disruption turns, and to hail mary at recouping value against confusion or Yawn. I think I got like three ghost or dragon immunity U-turns in there, too? Actually witnessing one of my backliners survive an attack never ceased to amaze me.
Mega Lopunny has blistering speed, Fake Out, and Scrappy STAB coverage so menacing that I can’t imagine it doing worse than a 1-for-1. Non-mega lopunny, on the other hand, can only proficiently kick buckets.

Gee, where do I begin with this moveset. It’s got so much nuance and history behind its delicately crafted balance and multitudinous lines of play. Why, even the choice of hold item begets the infinite possib yeah okay. But believe it or not, this set impressed me. Last Resort does actually real damage, and normal lop is speedy enough to afford a bit of HP investment, and combined with Fake Out, actually has a big impact on the battlefield pretty much every match. It freakin 4HKOs steel types on the daily! That’s impressive!

I didn’t use High Jump Kick because I was scared of 90%, but in retrospect, I shouldn’t have been - this team needs to get really lucky to win, might as well take a tiny gamble to win bi- medium. However, I suspect that HJK would have been mediocre, but for different reasons. Losing STAB is big, and I tried Ice Punch as the 3rd move for a while in a desperate clutch at straws against ghosts and ground types; not only did it do fuck all nothing for damage even vs 4x targets, but it heinously tanked lop’s damage output in every single battle, completely wasting a perfectly good turn of extremely respectable walloping, and thus also tanking the team’s survivability.
Mega Mawile is a force of nature. Huge Power and a free Intimidate are a one-two punch to momentum that instantly topple the balance in your favor. Non-mega mawile, on the other hand, debatably manages to exist.

Sheer Force is almost definitely not the correct choice from a viability standpoint, but was the only choice from a thematic standpoint. Life Orb allows maw to choose its moves wisely and attempt to stack up so many positive multipliers that it can actually deal damage. Jolly would have allowed Maw to outspeed a few more things in TW, but at the cost of its prized ability to deal any damage whatsoever to the bulky, slower targets that lop and kang can’t muscle through alone.

Iron Head and Play Rough actually 2HKO many targets. For a while, I ran Sucker Punch, but it does so close to literal zero damage, especially to the status move spamming bulky psychic and ghost types I desperately needed to hit, that Crunch’s benefits were way worth sacrificing the possibility of every attacking post-TW. I ran Flamethrower for the longest time out of fear of physical walls, but putting Tail Whip on kang actually allowed me to swap out for Rock Slide, a physical noncontact spread move that could hit the fire type targets no one wanted to (or could, in some cases) ever touch. I believe my “”””winning”””” streak included a volcarona and turtornator that made me believe in the value of rock slide in this dubious fourth moveslot.

Literally anything that has a hint of bulk and an attack with any weight behind it can cleave a chunk out of this team like a hot knife through butter. If each AI only brought two pokemon to battle, this team would still consistently run into dire situations. However, even amongst the entire sea of bigger fish, there were a few categories of pokemon that consistently rock this team.

Ghost types were such a death knell that you’ve already read about them in every single team member’s section. Early versions of the team were quite literally 1v4’d by a cofagrigus, and later versions by jellicents, palossands, froslass, you name it. Will-O-Wisp is pretty good against a team of frail physical attackers. Lastmon grass/ghost types coming in against my lastmon lopunny happened at least 3 times.

Steel types have a pretty good type matchup against my wide, diverse range of coverage represented on this team, and also tend to be physically resistant. I once encountered a Clear Body registeel. I forfeited.

If it has a brown-colored attack, it will probably fuck me. If Tailwind runs out, it’s over. If it inflicts a status condition, I’m almost definitely one die roll away from dead. This team has such low power and longevity that it has little to no ability to withstand bad matchups, bad luck, or bad plays.

If it wasn't obvious before the start AND I hadn't made it abundantly clear by now, this team was utterly miserable to reach 50 with. Not that it wasn't fun to play - but as soon as I hit 50, I slumped to the floor in relief. When I faced some sort of immediately unwinnable situation two battles later, I wasn't surprised in the slightest.
​
​

Everyone knows that Pokemon is about bonds of friendship, journeys of personal growth, and broadening horizons.

Competitive Pokemon, however, doesn’t give a fuck. Today, I’ll try to illustrate the differences between good pokemon and bad pokemon by reducing your beloved magical animal companions into what they really are - numbers. First, however, we must set the stage of battle, and meet the cast of component number categories. Not like I’m the one to oversee this analysis, but here’s my attempt anyway:

In the absence of a timer, the win condition is simple - reduce your opposing team’s HP values to 0. The means of accomplishing this task, however, are complicated by a wide variety of factors that have managed to keep this concept alive as long as gaming has existed. Nevertheless, at least for this section, think of everything in terms of how it comes back to HP in the end.

Attack: Where there exists HP, there exists a force that works to bring it to 0. Through base stats, items, moves, and abilities, pokemon in one way or another race directly or indirectly toward unnaturally shortening their opponent’s life spans. Losing a pokemon is more than just losing HP - you lose an avenue to the reduce the opponents’ HP, too.

Defense: HP, however, is more than just that. Stats, items, typings, and abilities can bolster HP in seemingly simple, but often surprisingly profound ways. The ability to take attacks well and dish out a greater value of punishment in response is the core of Pokemon. If you cannot maneuver to a point where you are only giving, you must play a game of give-and-take. If at that point, you cannot properly take, you are most likely losing.

Speed: There are three types of turns: Turns where you move first, turns where you move second, and turns where you never get the chance to move at all. The third group represents the most egregious imbalance possible in a turn - an entire ingame unit of time spent losing value while your opponent gains - a double swing in one direction. Keep in mind, however, that the one turn difference is proportional to the value accrued in that time, and the virtual/actual future gains and losses.

Effects: Effects are the one true area where even the most numerically challenged can cheat the system. Whether by circumventing their own small numbers, making their teammates’ large numbers disproportionately larger, or reducing the opponents’ numbers - so long as the user’s subpar numbers rarely or never enter the equations, even pokemon who couldn’t dream of fighting head-on can accomplish great things. Useful support and disruption, game-changing abilities, and, especially for tree, tools to deal with specific categories of threats, can come in all shapes, sizes, and stat distributions.
Now, how do these factors illustrate the spectrum of bad pokemon? Well, bad pokemon usually are bad numbers.

Pokemon with poor Speed tiers have to give up lots of stat value, in one way or another, to move first. Even if they do move first, their Attack isn’t recouping their investment with damage dealt OR saved via the KOs they’re not getting. This allows their pitiful Defense to enter the equation, and your HP’s answer usually ends up equalling 0. Items that augment stats have a proportionally smaller effect on these lower numbers. The wonderful Effects that bail this kind of pokemon out of the dumpster sadly don’t happen to rescue everyone.

Bad pokemon are often directly obsoleted by a contemporary who does everything they do, but better. Even if they do have strengths, their weaknesses make them more trouble than they’re worth. Most importantly, with over 700 applicants for your roster of 6 or fewer, competition is fierce - no matter how good you are, the opportunity cost of running someone better will always be felt, hard.

Wow, that was all quite a long-winded way to say what everyone already knows.

Well, that is what I do, huh.
The world is only as doom and gloom as you think it is.

I mean, the situation might objectively be suboptimal, or the prognosis be scientifically deleterious, but it’s not doom or gloom until you internalize it as such.

Gah, look, what I’m trying to say is, your favorite pokemon, no matter how outclassed, obsoleted, or obtuse it is, could probably do some respectable work in the battle tree.

From what I’ve experienced throughout the harsh plunge into the deep end with 360 Nostone, even these forgotten, forsaken, forlorn puddles of numbers have strengths to explore, and lessons to teach. I witnessed firsthand the potential of Last Resort, the power of Swarm, and the utility of Z-Tail Whip, of all things! I’m going to explore Mega Lopunny because of its surprisingly potent non-mega form, I blew my unreasonably narrow views on setters wide open, and even began to reexamine the entire concept of what viable wincons are in facility doubles are!

If I have one homework assignment for you, it’s to not give up on your favorite shitmon. You don’t have to submerge yourself as deep in desperation as I did just to explore one niche it could fulfill. Now, you can’t overcome mathematics itself - don’t ignore reality and charge headfirst - but pick its approach to battle very carefully, and you can definitely take it somewhere. Sure, you might have to dive deep into databases and obscure moves, but there’s a lot of legitimate hidden gems in this vast game. Sure, its teammates will have to make sacrifices to function with a squeaky wheel, but you’d be surprised at how much they can stand to gain in return. Sure, you’re not running a team anywhere close to optimal.

…But these little collections of numbers are more than just numbers to you, aren’t they?

You wouldn’t be reading this sentence, all the way down here, if you didn’t have a soft spot for stupid shit.

So go out there, and get a little stupid for me.

See ya next time.
-ANTS
 
ANTS said:
A long while back, I lazily read through some users on the Discord server gushing about how functional non-mega mawile was for some users’ TR randoms squads. After a few pages’ worth of rave reviews, I surmised that, despite the humorous appearances, these people were not joking. Instead of slowly backing away from these mad Scientists, however, something drew me in. Not discovering value in underutilized status moves. Not cleverly maximizing the impact of limited resources. Not crafting a shell to support a novel team member.

No, rather, an idea for a really stupid joke. This is the unfortunate tale of 360 Nostone.

View attachment 238910
Featuring:

View attachment 238921

WARNING: Strange mixture of serious analysis and utter buffoonery!

​
The concept was simple. The mega evolution mechanic is notorious for bringing awful pokemon beyond the status of legends. The delta of power between some mega and non-mega forms is so ludicrously wide, that I could only marvel at how much of the Pokemon universe is at the mercy of the whims of the ones who decide the numbers. What would happen if I defied their wishes? What if I laughed at their promises of power? What if I sought out the four pokemon who gained the absolute most from their mega form, and ran their normal forms together on one maximally sacrilegious meme team?

In the end, they were the ones laughing at me. I was the one wishing in vain. But after almost two months of near-daily play sessions, after so many miserable hopeless battles that my attempts blurred together, after weeks upon weeks of frustration, floundering, and suffering, as of some time in late February, I could report to you, as I am doing now, on this honest-to-god coincidental date of 4/20, an ended streak of 51 wins in Ultra Moon Doubles. Presenting:

360 Nostone

View attachment 238908
Dankey Kang (Kangaskhan) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 50
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Tail Whip
- Drain Punch
- Double-Edge

View attachment 238907
My Bee (Beedrill) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Knock Off
- U-turn

View attachment 238906
1Trick Bunny (Lopunny) (F) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Limber
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Last Resort

View attachment 238909
Little Wile (Mawile) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Rock Slide
- Crunch

It was very clear early on that this team would have to be one-dimensional. It didn’t take very many mass calculations to determine that achieving one dimension would already be more than enough of a challenge for this ragtag band of misfits. Three members crumple like rice paper, meaning slow and steady is not a game they want to play, and four members hit like al dente noodles, meaning turn advantage was the only way they’d ever come out on top in a brawl. In the absence of a Trick Room user or any other remotely profitable method of speed control, mindless Tailwind offense seemed like the way to go.

The trial and error phase of design never truly ends for a fundamentally broken project. But after running into impenetrable roadblock after impenetrable roadblock, the team nevertheless managed to iterate in at least noticeable attempts at adaptation. I feel these mons’ sets tell the stories of their trials and tribulations well enough that it’s time to introduce the cast of this comedy-tragedy.

Mega Kangaskhan was so unbelievably prominent in the competitive Pokemon environment that the unthinkable happened - Game Freak caught on. Even after its nerf, its raw rate and all-rounder capabilities leave it at the top of the food chain. Non-mega kangaskhan, on the other hand, is more likely encountered outside the safari zone than in serious discussion of any kind.

The first question I had to answer was which Fake Out user to pair with beedrill. I assumed lop, as it was the higher immediate upside option, the more expendable team member, and the most resilient to opposing status. None of these were saying much, but it seemed legit. As it turned out, losing a team member on turn 1 didn’t end up paying off in the long run, so kang, the only one capable of taking an average hit, stepped up to the plate.

Assault Vest, berries of many flavors, coverage moves as wild as Aqua Tail, kang went through so many iterations as the only remotely flexible and reliable team member. Poor thing had the weight of the team on its shoulders. So at some point, I figured, why not lean into that responsibility further? Instead of eyeing it as a way to squeeze value out of its less powerful teammates, I shifted to thinking about its maximum potential. After one fateful hail mary “fuck it” experiment, its set miraculously took on this new form I envisioned.

That Z-stone isn’t for Double Edge. It’s for Z-Tail Whip. I didn’t even think it was so stupid it might work, I was just leaning all in to the memes. But holy fucking shit, I vowed to never make fun of those Acid Spray cultists in the Discord ever again. Kang raises its attack to accrue some form of advantage against future opponents, while making my entirely physical team actually deal damage to even dedicated physical walls! Drain Punch gives the newly buff kang enough survivability for its boost to actually matter reasonably often, especially when alongside its alluring target frail teammates. The ability to spam Tail Whip against bulky ghosts is absolutely necessary, against rocks and steels legitimately valuable, and against random frailer mons, allows your teammates to edge into the 2, or even 1HKO range sometimes! A Z-Double Edge also has its critical moments, for targets that extremely need to die on turn 2, although you usually need bee + FO to bring the average target down, and you always regret losing out on the attack boost.
Mega Beedrill does one thing - hit. And I hear it hits hard. Non-mega beedrill does one thing - get hit. And hear me, it gets hit hard.

Despite lacking the insane speed and offensive niches of its superior form, beedrill is a blessing in disguise to this team, having access to Tailwind. What’s more, the lack of a mega stone means it can hold a Focus Sash, doubling the survivability of even its mega form! Turn 1, Fake Out and TW. In the face of opposing FO, turn 1 is switch kang to lop and Protect, then go for FO TW on turn 2. In the case of a protect-bypassing move + weather/faster priority, this plan would fail, but why bother pointing out specific confounding scenarios when this team folds to half the tree, even when its only plan is functioning perfectly?

Believe it or not, though, I gained a remarkable amount of respect for my bee. Access to TW or Trick Room is already a high grade in my book, but bee has some interesting moves in its repertoire. I started out with Endeavor, which was actively great, and X-Scissor, which with the almost guaranteed Swarm boost legitimately bludgeoned anything that it hit 2x. Unfortunately, team necessities slowly forced out these fun and powerful moves for stopgap measures - but remember, beedrill actually had the luxury of having a decision to make in the first place! Knock Off is a begrudging concession to the team’s crippling weakness to ghost types, and was an easy replacement for the rarely used Poison Jab. Protect for the weakness to opposing FO. U-Turn is (believe it or not) a noticeable downgrade in damage from X-scissor, but allows a chance to bring a backliner in ASAP against slower teams, a FO user in for seamless disruption turns, and to hail mary at recouping value against confusion or Yawn. I think I got like three ghost or dragon immunity U-turns in there, too? Actually witnessing one of my backliners survive an attack never ceased to amaze me.
Mega Lopunny has blistering speed, Fake Out, and Scrappy STAB coverage so menacing that I can’t imagine it doing worse than a 1-for-1. Non-mega lopunny, on the other hand, can only proficiently kick buckets.

Gee, where do I begin with this moveset. It’s got so much nuance and history behind its delicately crafted balance and multitudinous lines of play. Why, even the choice of hold item begets the infinite possib yeah okay. But believe it or not, this set impressed me. Last Resort does actually real damage, and normal lop is speedy enough to afford a bit of HP investment, and combined with Fake Out, actually has a big impact on the battlefield pretty much every match. It freakin 4HKOs steel types on the daily! That’s impressive!

I didn’t use High Jump Kick because I was scared of 90%, but in retrospect, I shouldn’t have been - this team needs to get really lucky to win, might as well take a tiny gamble to win bi- medium. However, I suspect that HJK would have been mediocre, but for different reasons. Losing STAB is big, and I tried Ice Punch as the 3rd move for a while in a desperate clutch at straws against ghosts and ground types; not only did it do fuck all nothing for damage even vs 4x targets, but it heinously tanked lop’s damage output in every single battle, completely wasting a perfectly good turn of extremely respectable walloping, and thus also tanking the team’s survivability.
Mega Mawile is a force of nature. Huge Power and a free Intimidate are a one-two punch to momentum that instantly topple the balance in your favor. Non-mega mawile, on the other hand, debatably manages to exist.

Sheer Force is almost definitely not the correct choice from a viability standpoint, but was the only choice from a thematic standpoint. Life Orb allows maw to choose its moves wisely and attempt to stack up so many positive multipliers that it can actually deal damage. Jolly would have allowed Maw to outspeed a few more things in TW, but at the cost of its prized ability to deal any damage whatsoever to the bulky, slower targets that lop and kang can’t muscle through alone.

Iron Head and Play Rough actually 2HKO many targets. For a while, I ran Sucker Punch, but it does so close to literal zero damage, especially to the status move spamming bulky psychic and ghost types I desperately needed to hit, that Crunch’s benefits were way worth sacrificing the possibility of every attacking post-TW. I ran Flamethrower for the longest time out of fear of physical walls, but putting Tail Whip on kang actually allowed me to swap out for Rock Slide, a physical noncontact spread move that could hit the fire type targets no one wanted to (or could, in some cases) ever touch. I believe my “”””winning”””” streak included a volcarona and turtornator that made me believe in the value of rock slide in this dubious fourth moveslot.

Literally anything that has a hint of bulk and an attack with any weight behind it can cleave a chunk out of this team like a hot knife through butter. If each AI only brought two pokemon to battle, this team would still consistently run into dire situations. However, even amongst the entire sea of bigger fish, there were a few categories of pokemon that consistently rock this team.

Ghost types were such a death knell that you’ve already read about them in every single team member’s section. Early versions of the team were quite literally 1v4’d by a cofagrigus, and later versions by jellicents, palossands, froslass, you name it. Will-O-Wisp is pretty good against a team of frail physical attackers. Lastmon grass/ghost types coming in against my lastmon lopunny happened at least 3 times.

Steel types have a pretty good type matchup against my wide, diverse range of coverage represented on this team, and also tend to be physically resistant. I once encountered a Clear Body registeel. I forfeited.

If it has a brown-colored attack, it will probably fuck me. If Tailwind runs out, it’s over. If it inflicts a status condition, I’m almost definitely one die roll away from dead. This team has such low power and longevity that it has little to no ability to withstand bad matchups, bad luck, or bad plays.

If it wasn't obvious before the start AND I hadn't made it abundantly clear by now, this team was utterly miserable to reach 50 with. Not that it wasn't fun to play - but as soon as I hit 50, I slumped to the floor in relief. When I faced some sort of immediately unwinnable situation two battles later, I wasn't surprised in the slightest.
​
​

Everyone knows that Pokemon is about bonds of friendship, journeys of personal growth, and broadening horizons.

Competitive Pokemon, however, doesn’t give a fuck. Today, I’ll try to illustrate the differences between good pokemon and bad pokemon by reducing your beloved magical animal companions into what they really are - numbers. First, however, we must set the stage of battle, and meet the cast of component number categories. Not like I’m the one to oversee this analysis, but here’s my attempt anyway:

In the absence of a timer, the win condition is simple - reduce your opposing team’s HP values to 0. The means of accomplishing this task, however, are complicated by a wide variety of factors that have managed to keep this concept alive as long as gaming has existed. Nevertheless, at least for this section, think of everything in terms of how it comes back to HP in the end.

Attack: Where there exists HP, there exists a force that works to bring it to 0. Through base stats, items, moves, and abilities, pokemon in one way or another race directly or indirectly toward unnaturally shortening their opponent’s life spans. Losing a pokemon is more than just losing HP - you lose an avenue to the reduce the opponents’ HP, too.

Defense: HP, however, is more than just that. Stats, items, typings, and abilities can bolster HP in seemingly simple, but often surprisingly profound ways. The ability to take attacks well and dish out a greater value of punishment in response is the core of Pokemon. If you cannot maneuver to a point where you are only giving, you must play a game of give-and-take. If at that point, you cannot properly take, you are most likely losing.

Speed: There are three types of turns: Turns where you move first, turns where you move second, and turns where you never get the chance to move at all. The third group represents the most egregious imbalance possible in a turn - an entire ingame unit of time spent losing value while your opponent gains - a double swing in one direction. Keep in mind, however, that the one turn difference is proportional to the value accrued in that time, and the virtual/actual future gains and losses.

Effects: Effects are the one true area where even the most numerically challenged can cheat the system. Whether by circumventing their own small numbers, making their teammates’ large numbers disproportionately larger, or reducing the opponents’ numbers - so long as the user’s subpar numbers rarely or never enter the equations, even pokemon who couldn’t dream of fighting head-on can accomplish great things. Useful support and disruption, game-changing abilities, and, especially for tree, tools to deal with specific categories of threats, can come in all shapes, sizes, and stat distributions.
Now, how do these factors illustrate the spectrum of bad pokemon? Well, bad pokemon usually are bad numbers.

Pokemon with poor Speed tiers have to give up lots of stat value, in one way or another, to move first. Even if they do move first, their Attack isn’t recouping their investment with damage dealt OR saved via the KOs they’re not getting. This allows their pitiful Defense to enter the equation, and your HP’s answer usually ends up equalling 0. Items that augment stats have a proportionally smaller effect on these lower numbers. The wonderful Effects that bail this kind of pokemon out of the dumpster sadly don’t happen to rescue everyone.

Bad pokemon are often directly obsoleted by a contemporary who does everything they do, but better. Even if they do have strengths, their weaknesses make them more trouble than they’re worth. Most importantly, with over 700 applicants for your roster of 6 or fewer, competition is fierce - no matter how good you are, the opportunity cost of running someone better will always be felt, hard.

Wow, that was all quite a long-winded way to say what everyone already knows.

Well, that is what I do, huh.
The world is only as doom and gloom as you think it is.

I mean, the situation might objectively be suboptimal, or the prognosis be scientifically deleterious, but it’s not doom or gloom until you internalize it as such.

Gah, look, what I’m trying to say is, your favorite pokemon, no matter how outclassed, obsoleted, or obtuse it is, could probably do some respectable work in the battle tree.

From what I’ve experienced throughout the harsh plunge into the deep end with 360 Nostone, even these forgotten, forsaken, forlorn puddles of numbers have strengths to explore, and lessons to teach. I witnessed firsthand the potential of Last Resort, the power of Swarm, and the utility of Z-Tail Whip, of all things! I’m going to explore Mega Lopunny because of its surprisingly potent non-mega form, I blew my unreasonably narrow views on setters wide open, and even began to reexamine the entire concept of what viable wincons are in facility doubles are!

If I have one homework assignment for you, it’s to not give up on your favorite shitmon. You don’t have to submerge yourself as deep in desperation as I did just to explore one niche it could fulfill. Now, you can’t overcome mathematics itself - don’t ignore reality and charge headfirst - but pick its approach to battle very carefully, and you can definitely take it somewhere. Sure, you might have to dive deep into databases and obscure moves, but there’s a lot of legitimate hidden gems in this vast game. Sure, its teammates will have to make sacrifices to function with a squeaky wheel, but you’d be surprised at how much they can stand to gain in return. Sure, you’re not running a team anywhere close to optimal.

…But these little collections of numbers are more than just numbers to you, aren’t they?

You wouldn’t be reading this sentence, all the way down here, if you didn’t have a soft spot for stupid shit.

So go out there, and get a little stupid for me.

See ya next time.
-ANTS
Click to expand...

I thought I tortured myself by trying to win the Lv.50 and Open Level Ribbons with Sunflora on my team in Gen 3. You sir deserve massive respect for this.
 
I'm a long time lurker having just picked my copy of Pokémon Moon back up after a prolonged amount of time pretty much breeding for max IVs and that being it; I'm after some advice if I may? I'm looking to go as far as I can on the Battle Tree Super Doubles as I can with the below team which I call "From Unova with Love" as it's more or less the same one I used on Pokémon White for the Subway.

This is the team as it currently stands, fairly standard Sand Team;

Excadrill @ Groundium Z
Sand Rush | Adamant
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd | 31 / 31 / 31 / x / 31 / 31
Stats @ Level 50 - 185 / 205 / 81 / 50 / 85 / 140
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head

Tyranitar @ Air Balloon
Sandstream | Sassy
252 HP / 60 Atk / 192 SDef | 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 0
Stats @ Level 50 - 207 / 162 / 130 / 115 / 158 / 59
- Crunch
- Protect
- Rock Slide
- Flamethrower

Scizor @ Scizorite
Technician | Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd | 31 / 31 / 31 / x / 31 / 31
Stats @ Level 50 - 177 / 200 / 120 / 54 / 100 / 86 (177 / 222 / 160 / 64 / 120 / 96)
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Protect
- Superpower

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Levitate | Timid
4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
31 / x / 29 / 29 / 31 / 31
Stats @ Level 50 - 154 / 86 / 100 / 181 / 130 / 178
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

This has been lifted from Gen 5 with the only change being Iron Head on Excadrill (originally had X-Scissor) and giving him Groundium-Z instead of a Ground Gem and giving Scizor the Mega slot instead of him having a Steel Gem iirc. It served me well back then if I remember, and I'm having fun using it again although only 30 battles in.

I believe at the time I had Tyranitar's IV & EVs in speed as low as possible to ensure that it got Sandstorm up and unlocked Excadrill. I'm not sure whether Excadrill needs to have 252 EVs in Speed if I'm ensuring I always get Sandstorm up (no idea if the EV spread is needed still in Gen 7) as the next fastest thing is Manectric-4 at 258; I could drop the EVs down to 172 to ensure it always outspeeds in Sand and put the rest in HP for longevity perhaps? Latios is there to provide a special sweeper, again perhaps I should reduce the Speed EVs to 188 to ensure it outspeeds Garchomp-3 and plough the rest into HP?

Main aim is around getting the most out of Excadrill, hence the set I've gone with for Tyranitar. Groundium-Z gives me a nuke if necessary such as a Trick Room setter (although Tar doesn't do too badly with them due to low speed). I've not encountered many other weather setters in the Tree so I'm wondering if the low speed on Tar is even needed and whether I'd be better off going for a more aggressive and faster set?

Where possible I'd like to keep Excadrill and Tyranitar as I love using both of them. Scizor and Latios are also big favourites of mine, but more expendable if necessary.

Thanks!
 
Hi! There's some differences between standard play and Tree that would make your team better if you accounted for them. For one, you should never rely on a 90% accurate move that you'll likely only have one or two shots at hitting. For another, Blissey isn't anywhere near as threatening in Tree doubles as it'd be in Smogon singles, so I'd recommend using Psychic for more power (unless Psyshock is specifically to assist against specially defensive fairies like Florges, but you have two steels on your team so I doubt that. Also, Excadrill doesn't need anywhere near as much speed as you've given it - neither opposing Excadrill nor Sandslash run any speed EVs, so you don't need to worry about them outspeeding you in sand. Trace mons are either out of range of Adamant Excadrill (Gardevoir3 hits 145 speed) or are otherwise slow enough that you'd never need to worry about being outsped. For your purposes, I'd recommend dropping to 172 speed EVs, so a spread of 4 HP/252 atk/44 def/36 spd/172 spe. (Bulk EVs are probably not optimal but i'm too lazy to check the best spread).
 
HeadsILoseTailsYouWin said:
Hi! There's some differences between standard play and Tree that would make your team better if you accounted for them. For one, you should never rely on a 90% accurate move that you'll likely only have one or two shots at hitting. For another, Blissey isn't anywhere near as threatening in Tree doubles as it'd be in Smogon singles, so I'd recommend using Psychic for more power (unless Psyshock is specifically to assist against specially defensive fairies like Florges, but you have two steels on your team so I doubt that. Also, Excadrill doesn't need anywhere near as much speed as you've given it - neither opposing Excadrill nor Sandslash run any speed EVs, so you don't need to worry about them outspeeding you in sand. Trace mons are either out of range of Adamant Excadrill (Gardevoir3 hits 145 speed) or are otherwise slow enough that you'd never need to worry about being outsped. For your purposes, I'd recommend dropping to 172 speed EVs, so a spread of 4 HP/252 atk/44 def/36 spd/172 spe. (Bulk EVs are probably not optimal but i'm too lazy to check the best spread).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply!

I'm assuming by the 90% accurate move you mean Rock Slide? I've been considering dropping it on Tyranitar but I like that fact it's a spread move. Generally I tend to find that Excadrill uses Earthquake on Turn 1 unless I see something that absolutely has to be removed in which I use Groundium-Z. It tends to be Tyranitar I use it mainly on; that, Crunch and Protect; Flamethrower is mainly for Ferrothorn. What would you recommend instead of it on Excadrill, Rock Tomb? Or going for something like X-Scissor or Aerial Ace to help with Grass types? I'm not quite there yet but Virizion scares me; I'd have to sacrifice something to get Latios in with Psyshock.

I'll certainly give Psychic a run instead of Psyshock and alter Excadrill's EVs as they're wasted at the moment.

I'm not entirely sure whether Latios and Scizor are the best fits for this team in honesty. I'd considered replacing Latios with a scarfed Thundurus with Thunderbolt/GrassKnot/HPIce/VoltSwitch or maybe Mega-Alakazam to pulverise through things. I'd have to drop the Scizorite which is a negative and I'm not the biggest fan of his movepool.
 
Robcore said:
Thanks for the reply!

I'm assuming by the 90% accurate move you mean Rock Slide? I've been considering dropping it on Tyranitar but I like that fact it's a spread move. Generally I tend to find that Excadrill uses Earthquake on Turn 1 unless I see something that absolutely has to be removed in which I use Groundium-Z. It tends to be Tyranitar I use it mainly on; that, Crunch and Protect; Flamethrower is mainly for Ferrothorn. What would you recommend instead of it on Excadrill, Rock Tomb? Or going for something like X-Scissor or Aerial Ace to help with Grass types? I'm not quite there yet but Virizion scares me; I'd have to sacrifice something to get Latios in with Psyshock.

I'll certainly give Psychic a run instead of Psyshock and alter Excadrill's EVs as they're wasted at the moment.

I'm not entirely sure whether Latios and Scizor are the best fits for this team in honesty. I'd considered replacing Latios with a scarfed Thundurus with Thunderbolt/GrassKnot/HPIce/VoltSwitch or maybe Mega-Alakazam to pulverise through things. I'd have to drop the Scizorite which is a negative and I'm not the biggest fan of his movepool.
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I think she is referring more about using Draco Meteor on Latios since it's a high risk move due to its effects after use and its unreliable accuracy. Rock Slide IMO is fine on Tyranitar and Excadrill since T-tar doesn't have access to a more accurate STAB and it's the best coverage move for Drill.
 
If you want to come far you also shouldn't rely too much on Rock Slide.
And as you think of other Mons, Gyarados might fit in the team for defensive type synergy. Not sure how it will perform offensively though and if it provides some new coverage. Just an idea
But yeah your Thundurus or something like Zapdos seem to be nice fits, too, hitting bulky waters hard, which probably cause problems to a sand team naturally.
 
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