Thanks for the tip. Meanwhile Im almost done breeding a Victreebel with Giga and Weather Ball, so I might try that first.
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Battle Maison Discussion & Records
- Thread starter NoCheese
- Start date
Thanks for the tip. Meanwhile Im almost done breeding a Victreebel with Giga and Weather Ball, so I might try that first.
I don't think that's ever going to happen, since Durant is not that easy to play, especially over long streaks with something as slow as Drapion, and because a "copycat" team of a top streak beating that streak is virtually unheard of - I've been lurking these threads since D/P and I don't think I ever saw a top3 streak getting beaten by another user with the exact same team, aside from ninjachicken1's Rotations streak just now.
Copying top teams and getting long streaks with them is perfectly fine, I think - I started out my Maison run doing that, copying Jumpman's Team Suizorus (with just swapping Haxorus for Dragonite) for a 43x streak that I later obsoleted with a more original team. Having done so myself I'd even recommend that new players start out by using proven teams from the leaderboards - it helps with not getting stuck in battles 1-40 and getting to play the "real" Maison sooner, getting first-hand experience on what a good team should play like (i.e. winning most battles in a straightforward manner), and getting valuable Maison experience that helps tremendously with making your own teams later. At least personally, a decent streak using a copied good team was much more educational for me than grinding a couple of 100-win streaks with crappy teams that I made up without having any idea of what I was doing. Of course I still make bad teams and lose streaks, but that's part of the game and inevitably happens often when trying out ideas that may or may not be viable - sweeper Klefki in Rotations turned out to be great idea, but a couple of other things I tried weren't. Ditto for Triples, which I'm currently working on with a new, much better team that has 100% less Heliolisk.
The thing here is, imo the leaderboards are supposed to reflect the best Maison players, and attaining the actual streak is only a part of that; the teambuilding is just as essential, and possibly a lot more delicate. That's why my teams lose around 150, and yours and Vaporeon's lose around 500; I know how to build a team with some synergy that can handle different AI playstyles, but I can't identify highly specific threats to my teams or turn the AI's power against it, which you guys can, and makes you better teambuilders and thus better Maison players. If I were to copy your rotations team, chances are that I would reach the 400s because your team is flat-out a lot better than mine, but that would not make me a better player; my in-battle skills have obviously not changed by using it, and if anything, my teambuilding skills are worse because I didn't even build the team - and yet I would get higher on the leaderboards. That just doesn't add up. Judging by Vaporeon's reply, ninjachicken just hasn't figured out the team as well as Vaporeon has, and I can perfectly well understand that this feels... cheap to him.
This does not, in any way, invalidate your point of starting out with a copied team being a good way to get acquainted with the maison, don't get me wrong, that is absolutely a good way to learn it. But I wouldn't want to see my name high on the leaderboards with literally 'VaporeonIce's team' as the team, I would want to have had some of my own input in that. (And your first singles team had some of your own input as well, building your team around a pre-existant concept and one on one copypasting somebody else's team is something different imo, and yours was a middle ground. I can see one doing the latter in order to win a highly annoying final trophy, that's fine imo, but not in order to storm a leaderboard that's supposed to reflect all-round skill.)
Also, VaporeonIce good luck on continuing your streak, you're almost halfway to 2366 ^_^
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Wait, really? Damn, well now I feel stupid. This is what I get for ignoring damage calcs and going the "kill everything that resists ice, then Icicle Spam" route.
That aside, most of my battles were better than that. I'd took a break from Pokémon for about 2 months before I came back, forgot the strategy and made stupid mistakes like forgetting about Fake Out Jynx. I definitely wasn't playing optimally though, because I wouldn't even have thought of sacrificing Gliscor to activate Natural Cure.
My opinion on the matter, and I acknowledge that I can neither speak for anyone else nor have any say in the first place, is that if a team were copied from someone else move for move and spread for spread, that the team's original creator be given some credit for the slot as well. Some slots on the leaderboard have two streaks for when the player's team made a second attempt and got further; I wouldn't think it foul if the #453 were an addendum to VaporeonIce's slot or vice versa.
I know it's all kinds of wrong, but I belong to the pretentious non-conformist crowd that believes imitation is not a form of flattery, is obnoxious and unsportsmanlike, and should be avoided whenever possible ;)
Heh, I'm normally one to keep my kneejerk reactions to myself, but the way he just casually threw it out there made it more annoying. Normally when one gets such a fantastic streak in a difficult mode they have a lot to say about their team and various difficult fights/threats, but he had little to show for it.
Please ignore me.
I know it's all kinds of wrong, but I belong to the pretentious non-conformist crowd that believes imitation is not a form of flattery, is obnoxious and unsportsmanlike, and should be avoided whenever possible ;)
Heh, I'm normally one to keep my kneejerk reactions to myself, but the way he just casually threw it out there made it more annoying. Normally when one gets such a fantastic streak in a difficult mode they have a lot to say about their team and various difficult fights/threats, but he had little to show for it.
Please ignore me.
It's a little awkward when someone uses a copy of another player's previously posted team to achieve a longer leaderboard streak. But so long as the debt to the original designer is mentioned in the team write up, for now, I think it's best to allow such teams to be posted, for several reasons.
First is the slippery slope. What counts as too similar? Exact same Pokemon, EV spreads, natures, and movesets, sure, but there's almost always some change at work. Sometimes a small deviation may be mainly cosmetic (taking a few extra Speed EVs from singles max Speed Jolly Durant and putting them into HP, while still making sure its able to outrun the rest of the Maison), sometimes it's massive (playing Bold Klefki as a set up sweeper rather than dual screener), and sometimes it may be in between (using Extrasensory instead of Grass Knot on Greninja, running max-HP instead of max-Speed on triples Talonflame, running Substitute instead of Icy Wind on Suicune, or moving some Speed EVs to HP on Dragon Dance Dragonite). I really don't want to have to judge (or have the community spend effort judging) what is a sufficient difference.
Second is that the value of leaderboard to the community, in my mind, goes beyond the number of wins. Though I love long streaks, and streak length is certainly the most objectively "fair" means of ranking things, the number alone isn't super interesting without the description of the team that got there, specific play advice, recommendations against key threats, etc. Though a copycat team writeup might not have much to say about the building process, it may well have good suggestions (and even improvements) in terms of proper play and such. Here that wasn't the case, which certainly reduces the value of the post, but I think in general, even a pure copycat streak can add valuable information to the discussion. Certainly, this is one more reason to strongly encourage people to provide detailed discussions of their teams and streaks, and not just a proof video!
Also, note that seeing multiple streaks with the same set of Pokemon high on a leaderbord gives a pretty strong signal that this is a good team to try, which, as turskain points out, can be helpful to those just starting out. To ensure the original team designer's thoughts aren't lost amongst copies, perhaps we could require that all copycat streaks not only give credit, but actually link to the original team write up? I'd prefer not to leave us too bogged down with special rules, and a slew of copycat streaks has not really been an issue so far (most people like the feeling of building their own squad), so I'd rather not push to make this official policy just yet, but it is something to keep in mind. In this specific case, since there is essentially zero writeup in ninjachicken1's streak, (though he does give credit), I am going to ask him to edit his post to include a link to VaporeonIce's writeup, to make sure that anyone who clicks on his leaderboard entry hoping for detailed information can quickly move to a comprehensive discussion of the team.
Finaly, VaporeonIce, know that for anyone who has read through this thread in any detail at all, your massive contribution to Maison teambuilding and play is extremely apparent. Beyond the big streaks you've posted, many, many of us have been aided in our own streaks by your guidance and suggestions, and wherever your streaks sit on the leaderboard, that's not something any regular thread participant is likely to forget!
First is the slippery slope. What counts as too similar? Exact same Pokemon, EV spreads, natures, and movesets, sure, but there's almost always some change at work. Sometimes a small deviation may be mainly cosmetic (taking a few extra Speed EVs from singles max Speed Jolly Durant and putting them into HP, while still making sure its able to outrun the rest of the Maison), sometimes it's massive (playing Bold Klefki as a set up sweeper rather than dual screener), and sometimes it may be in between (using Extrasensory instead of Grass Knot on Greninja, running max-HP instead of max-Speed on triples Talonflame, running Substitute instead of Icy Wind on Suicune, or moving some Speed EVs to HP on Dragon Dance Dragonite). I really don't want to have to judge (or have the community spend effort judging) what is a sufficient difference.
Second is that the value of leaderboard to the community, in my mind, goes beyond the number of wins. Though I love long streaks, and streak length is certainly the most objectively "fair" means of ranking things, the number alone isn't super interesting without the description of the team that got there, specific play advice, recommendations against key threats, etc. Though a copycat team writeup might not have much to say about the building process, it may well have good suggestions (and even improvements) in terms of proper play and such. Here that wasn't the case, which certainly reduces the value of the post, but I think in general, even a pure copycat streak can add valuable information to the discussion. Certainly, this is one more reason to strongly encourage people to provide detailed discussions of their teams and streaks, and not just a proof video!
Also, note that seeing multiple streaks with the same set of Pokemon high on a leaderbord gives a pretty strong signal that this is a good team to try, which, as turskain points out, can be helpful to those just starting out. To ensure the original team designer's thoughts aren't lost amongst copies, perhaps we could require that all copycat streaks not only give credit, but actually link to the original team write up? I'd prefer not to leave us too bogged down with special rules, and a slew of copycat streaks has not really been an issue so far (most people like the feeling of building their own squad), so I'd rather not push to make this official policy just yet, but it is something to keep in mind. In this specific case, since there is essentially zero writeup in ninjachicken1's streak, (though he does give credit), I am going to ask him to edit his post to include a link to VaporeonIce's writeup, to make sure that anyone who clicks on his leaderboard entry hoping for detailed information can quickly move to a comprehensive discussion of the team.
Finaly, VaporeonIce, know that for anyone who has read through this thread in any detail at all, your massive contribution to Maison teambuilding and play is extremely apparent. Beyond the big streaks you've posted, many, many of us have been aided in our own streaks by your guidance and suggestions, and wherever your streaks sit on the leaderboard, that's not something any regular thread participant is likely to forget!
As I mentioned earlier, inspired by Stellar, I've been playing around with a triples team focused on Specs Pixilate Hyper Voice Sylveon. Though I made some definite mistakes in teambuilding and play, I still was able to put together a decently nice 406 win streak in Super Triples.
Here's the team:
Greninja @_Focus Sash
Trait: Protean
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Att)
-Mat Block
-Dark Pulse
-Ice Beam
-Extrasensory
Stats: 148/103/87/155/87/191
IVs: 31/X/31/31/31/31
EVs: 4/0/0/252/0/252
Sylveon @_Choice Specs
Trait: Pixilate
Nature: Modest (+Spa, -Att)
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock (not used)
-Shadow Ball (not used)
-Baton Pass (not used)
Stats: 172/76/85/178/150/111
IVs: 31/31/31/1/31/31
EVs: 12/0/0/252/0/244
Talonflame @_Sharp Beak
Trait: Gale Wings
Nature: Adamant (+Att, -Spa)
-Tailwind
-Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-Protect
Stats: 185/146/91/80/89/147
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 252/252/0/0/0/4
Kangaskhan @_Kangaskhanite
Trait: Scrappy -> Parental Bond
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -Spa)
-Power-Up Punch
-Return
-Crunch
-Fake Out
Stats: 181/147/100/54/100/156 (before mega evolution)
181/177/120/72/120/167 (after mega evolution)
IVs: 31/31/31/1/31/31
EVs: 4/252/0/0/0/252
Aron @_Berry Juice (Level 1)
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
-Protect
-Endeavor
-Toxic
-Tackle
Stats: 12/5/7/6/5/5
IVs: X/X/X/X/X/X
EVs: -
Aegislash @_Leftovers
Trait: Stance Change
Nature: Adamant (+Att, -Spa)
-Shadow Sneak
-Swords Dance
-King's Shield
-Sacred Sword
Stats: 167/112/171/55/170/80 (Shield forme)
167/222/71/153/70/80 (Blade forme)
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 252/252/4/0/0/0
--
The front row is the standard Mat Block, Tailwind, hard hitting spread attacker style of team played to most notable success by SimicCombine and Eppie using Mega Blastoise as the central hitter. Stellar originally suggested this Greninja / Sylveon / Talonflame front row, and though my EVs for Sylveon are more precisely tailored to the Maison, and my spreads and movesets on Greninja and Talonflame may be different (I don't know), considerable credit must go to him.
While Specs Pixilate Sylveon is locked into one move, hits a tiny bit less hard, is slightly less bulky, and is notably slower than Mega Blastoise, I still find myself preferring it as a lead. First, the Speed difference is not a very big deal. Max Speed Modest Mega Blastoise just barely outspeeds everything under Tailwind, but Sylveon comes close. With my spread, Sylveon makes it to 222 Speed under Tailwind, and of the post-battle 40 foes, only Pinsir4, Landorous2, Terrakion2, Entei3, and Manetric4 are faster. All of these are fairly manageable foes. Second, despite its small defensive disadvantage, Sylveon is better able to take advantage of its bulk than is Blastoise, because a big hit does not cripple its primary attack as it would Blastoise's Water Spout. Sylveon can take a beating and continue dishing out ridiculous amounts of spread damage until the moment it is KOed. Third, though Soundproof Pokemon are immune to Fairy-type Hyper Voice, nothing is healed or boosted by it as is the case for Water Spout, making Hyper Voice a safer move to spam. Finally, though getting locked into Hyper Voice might seem risky, its raw power and ability to affect all foes means that most of the time, it would be the best move to use even if I could choose freely. I never once used any of the other moves during this streak. Most importantly, though, is that using Sylveon as my lead heavy hitter leaves me with a free mega evolution spot, which is really valuable.
Be sure to note the 244 Speed EVs on Sylveon. 252 Speed does not allow you to outspeed any other foes under Tailwind, so you are much better off putting the extra 8 EVs into HP, for a total of 12 HP EVs. Twice during this streak, Sylveon survived an attack at one HP, so that single extra HP you get from this spread actually does matter.
Max Speed Timid Greninja with Mat Block is a Maison staple, and obviously, most first turns, that's the move I used. Dark Pulse is the next most important move in the set since it deals neutral damage to Steel-types, who can be irritating foes, and can hit foes on the far side of the field. Ice Beam provides wonderful coverage, and I chose Extrasensory over Grass Knot because it helps against the Poison-types that can hurt Sylveon.
Gale Wings Talonflame is another triples mainstay, and for good reason. Sylveon is heavily reliant upon Tailwind support, and nothing is better than Talonflame at setting it. Better still, Talonflame is no slouch as an attacker either. Brave Bird receives priority, hits the far side of the field with pretty good power, and is notable for beating up on the Grass/Poison types that otherwise threaten Sylveon. Flare Blitz is used far less, but is important for its ability to dent Steel-types. I honestly didn't use Protect a lot, since most of the time I was better off attacking, but there were situations where after a first turn Tailwind, Greninja and Sylveon could KO all three active foes without help from Talonflame. In these situations, I sometimes just switched Talonflame out for another attacker, typically Kangaskhan. I'm a bit tempted to replace Protect with U-turn to allow Talonflame to do a little damge when switching out. Obviously, this is moot when Talonflame doesn't need to attack at all to get the triple-KO, but there are times when it would be nice to break a Sash or finish off a low Pokemon while switching. I followed ~Mercury~'s advice and went with max HP rather than max Speed, since Talonflame gets priority on three of its moves already, and outspeeds most of the Steel-types it wants to use Flare Blitz on without any Speed investment.
My back row was not really thought out carefully, and though it served me well enough in most battles, its imperfections ended up costing me.
While best in Trick Room teams, Level 1 Aron is pretty amazing in triples generally. It draws attacks like mad and so buys free turns with Protect, and Endeavor lets it break bulky walls with ease. Toxic has corner case utility for finishing things off (Endeavor alone won't kill anything, but Toxic + Endeavor will), and I won one battle with nothing left but a 1 HP Aron thanks to Toxic. I got lazy and didn't choose a final move, which stayed Tackle by default, which punished me in my losing battle. Swagger's hardly a reliable move, but it gives some chance of finishing off a low opposing Pokemon that is immune to Poison. You never want to be in a situation where you need the foe to hurt itself in its confusion to survive, but might as well have the option as an extreme fallback.
Kangaskhan is, as always, the ultimate "good stuff" Pokemon, but I feel I might have been better with a different mega designed specifically to synergize with its teammates. Kanga was still pretty good, mind you, but didn't quite feel like she was at her best. Power-Up Punch and Return are pretty standard, and sometimes, you can PuP for "free" when you know your teammates will be able to complete a kill. PuP is also really important in helping against Steel-types. Sucker Punch is particularly unreliable in triples, where you can't always ensure that the right Pokemon will attack Kangaskhan, so I chose Crunch instead, especially since Tailwind meant that I had Speed advantage most of the time. Fake Out is always wonderful in doubles and triples, as it lets you shut down dangerous foes for a turn, often enough time for your teammates to KO them. Scrappy is absolutely the correct choice of pre-mega evolution ability, since there are occasions where you want to be able to Fake Out an opposing Ghost-type Pokemon.
Aegislash is another "good stuff" staple, and while its combination of power, priority, and ability to play defense is wonderful, I made a bad mistake in my build. In singles battles, Aegislash can often stall for a long time, making Leftovers recovery a valuable asset. In Triples, and particularly on this team, Aegislash does some baiting with King's Shield, but its main job is to hit hard and fast and finish off what its teammates have left behind. In this sort of environment, Leftovers recovery is not very useful, and I really should have used an Air Balloon, to help cover the ugly Ground-type weakness. Had I equipped one on battle 407, I would not have lost. Movewise, Shadow Sneak gets around Aegislash's poor Speed, finishes off weakened foes, and provides nice defense against Trick Room. King's Shield is great for buying free turns for Aegislash's teammates, but only rarely did I actually cripple a contact move. Sacred Sword is nice insurance against Double Team Pokemon, but is most important for covering Steel-types, which can cause problems for Sylveon. Swords Dance is great for letting Aegislash stay in Shield forme as much as possible (it's much better to Swords Dance and attack once, and so keep Shield forme up, than to attack twice and be stuck in Blade forme for an extra turn), but given the fast pace of triple battles, I might have been better served with a supplemental STAB like Iron Head.
Play notes:
In a typical battle, my first turn consists of Mat Block + Hyper Voice + Tailwind, and subsequent turns involve continued spamming of Hyper Voice with Greninja and Talonflame wearing down the Pokemon that Hyper Voice alone isn't powerful enough to KO. Usually, by the time Sylveon is KOed (if at all), I have enough of a Pokemon advantage to easily dispatch the remaining foes. I played rather "casually" during this streak, and found that the decision trees for most battles were extremely simple.
Trick Room teams might seem like a big problem, but actually, they weren't much of a threat at all. One reason for this is that even with a Trick Room user, the AI likes to go for KOs, and my flank Pokemon encouraged these attacks. Exeggutor and Trevenant, for example, will try to hit Greninja with powerful grass attacks if they are in range, while Water-type Trick Room users typically try to use Surf if they are in range of Talonflame. If I'm able to set up Mat Block and Tailwind on the first turn without Trick Room going into effect, I can usually KO the Trick Room users on the second turn before they get another chance to act. Second, since Trick Room teams are super slow, there's often no need for Mat Block and Tailwind facing multiple Trick Room users, and I can focus on killing them before they act. Brave Bird destroys even bulky Grass-types while Shadow Ball beats up on Ghost- and Psychic- types, so when I expect the AI to use Trick Room the first turn, I can often prevent it with simple attacking.
Even when Trick Room is set, my Pokemon are decently bulky and have a lot of priority options. Greninja can survive one hit thanks to its Sash and Sylveon can usually tank a hit or two, while priority Brave Bird, Shadow Sneak, and Fake Out go a long way towards victory even when Trick Room is active. Finally, the AI often makes horrible misplays with respect to Trick Room. On multiple occasions, two enemy Pokes used Trick Room on the first turn, resulting in one setting it and one removing it. Sometimes, a foe with decently fast teammates will set Trick Room the first turn and then remove it the second. Against a hard hitting team like this, foolish errors like this are quickly exploited.
Threats:
While most battles went very smoothly, like all teams, this squad has some big weaknesses. Here are the threats that really stood out during this streak.
Heatran: Heatran's powerful Steel-type attacks hurt Sylveon, while taking only 1/4 damage from Hyper Voice means it takes a lot of attacks to take it down. Typically, I'll focus on killing Heatran's partners with my lead three Pokemon, and use Fake Out and fighting attacks from my back three to actually finish it off. A strong Ground-type attack would be really useful here.
Wide Guard: Since this team is heavily focused on maximizing the power of Hyper Voice, Wide Guard really hurts me. Thankfully, Wide Guard foes use the move erratically, so I can often just avoid it, and Fighting-type users are easily dispatched by Talonflame. But the bulkier Wide Guard threats can cause problems.
Soundproof Pokemon: Soundproof Pokemon are immune to Hyper Voice, which complicates matters. Thankfully, most of them are pretty weak, and all of them have other possible abilities, so Soundproof is less of a problem than one might think. Bastiodon4, however, can be pretty evil, as it is very bulky, can have Soundproof, and also has Wide Guard. While I can wear it down with attacks from Greninja and Talonflame, and my back row covers it well, Bastiodon can often buy its teammates time to shred my front row.
Quick Claw from powerful Poison- or Steel-types: An untimely Quick Claw activation can let a foe first turn KO Sylveon before Mat Block is up, wrecking my strategy. Though it's less harmful on later turns, Quick Claw can still get around my Tailwind and stop a Sylveon sweep, though on those turns, I at least have some protection, since Priority Brave Bird still goes first, so I can often preemptively finish off a wounded Quick Claw foe even if the Claw activates.
Certain status ailments on Sylveon: Mat Block only blocks damaging attacks, not status moves, so Sylveon is very vulnerable to being statused, particularly on the first turn when Tailwind isn't up yet and slow Sylveon is my only Pokemon attacking. Burn and Poison don't matter much, as battles usually end long before their damage is relevant, but Sleep, Paralysis, and Confusion can all cause big problems for my strategy. Fortunately, the AI often prefers to afflict Talonflame and Greninja, and it's not nearly as irritating when they are statused.
How I lost:
I was defeated on battle 407 by Worker Rasmus, the Sandstorm guy. He had a front row of Tyranitar / Ferrothorn / Excadrill and a back row of Garchomp / Gigalith / Gliscor. The battle video can be found at: CFLG-WWWW-WWW9-XWHS
This was embarrassing, as I played horribly, and it cost me. Not Flare Blitzing Ferrothorn was idiotic, and though I was worried about Sand Rush on Excadrill, Brave Bird wasn't enough to kill it anyway, so there was absolutely no reason for me not to kill Ferrothorn immediately. Failing to remember I could shift Aron to the middle hurt me late in the battle, as did not having a viable fourth move on Aron (I knew Toxic was a gamble against Gliscor, which could have Poison Heal, and it ended up having it, and I should have had fourth move Swagger available to use too). An Air Balloon on Aegislash would have saved me as well. The final nail in the coffin was a couple of untimely misses against Sand Veil Garchomp, but I can hardly complain when my own play was so shoddy.
Frustrating to lose like this, but the basic idea is strong, and I believe that with refinements, this team has a lot of potential. I'll discuss my current plan in my next post.
Here's the team:
Greninja @_Focus Sash
Trait: Protean
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Att)
-Mat Block
-Dark Pulse
-Ice Beam
-Extrasensory
Stats: 148/103/87/155/87/191
IVs: 31/X/31/31/31/31
EVs: 4/0/0/252/0/252
Sylveon @_Choice Specs
Trait: Pixilate
Nature: Modest (+Spa, -Att)
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock (not used)
-Shadow Ball (not used)
-Baton Pass (not used)
Stats: 172/76/85/178/150/111
IVs: 31/31/31/1/31/31
EVs: 12/0/0/252/0/244
Talonflame @_Sharp Beak
Trait: Gale Wings
Nature: Adamant (+Att, -Spa)
-Tailwind
-Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-Protect
Stats: 185/146/91/80/89/147
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 252/252/0/0/0/4
Kangaskhan @_Kangaskhanite
Trait: Scrappy -> Parental Bond
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -Spa)
-Power-Up Punch
-Return
-Crunch
-Fake Out
Stats: 181/147/100/54/100/156 (before mega evolution)
181/177/120/72/120/167 (after mega evolution)
IVs: 31/31/31/1/31/31
EVs: 4/252/0/0/0/252
Aron @_Berry Juice (Level 1)
Trait: Sturdy
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Att)
-Protect
-Endeavor
-Toxic
-Tackle
Stats: 12/5/7/6/5/5
IVs: X/X/X/X/X/X
EVs: -
Aegislash @_Leftovers
Trait: Stance Change
Nature: Adamant (+Att, -Spa)
-Shadow Sneak
-Swords Dance
-King's Shield
-Sacred Sword
Stats: 167/112/171/55/170/80 (Shield forme)
167/222/71/153/70/80 (Blade forme)
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 252/252/4/0/0/0
--
The front row is the standard Mat Block, Tailwind, hard hitting spread attacker style of team played to most notable success by SimicCombine and Eppie using Mega Blastoise as the central hitter. Stellar originally suggested this Greninja / Sylveon / Talonflame front row, and though my EVs for Sylveon are more precisely tailored to the Maison, and my spreads and movesets on Greninja and Talonflame may be different (I don't know), considerable credit must go to him.
While Specs Pixilate Sylveon is locked into one move, hits a tiny bit less hard, is slightly less bulky, and is notably slower than Mega Blastoise, I still find myself preferring it as a lead. First, the Speed difference is not a very big deal. Max Speed Modest Mega Blastoise just barely outspeeds everything under Tailwind, but Sylveon comes close. With my spread, Sylveon makes it to 222 Speed under Tailwind, and of the post-battle 40 foes, only Pinsir4, Landorous2, Terrakion2, Entei3, and Manetric4 are faster. All of these are fairly manageable foes. Second, despite its small defensive disadvantage, Sylveon is better able to take advantage of its bulk than is Blastoise, because a big hit does not cripple its primary attack as it would Blastoise's Water Spout. Sylveon can take a beating and continue dishing out ridiculous amounts of spread damage until the moment it is KOed. Third, though Soundproof Pokemon are immune to Fairy-type Hyper Voice, nothing is healed or boosted by it as is the case for Water Spout, making Hyper Voice a safer move to spam. Finally, though getting locked into Hyper Voice might seem risky, its raw power and ability to affect all foes means that most of the time, it would be the best move to use even if I could choose freely. I never once used any of the other moves during this streak. Most importantly, though, is that using Sylveon as my lead heavy hitter leaves me with a free mega evolution spot, which is really valuable.
Be sure to note the 244 Speed EVs on Sylveon. 252 Speed does not allow you to outspeed any other foes under Tailwind, so you are much better off putting the extra 8 EVs into HP, for a total of 12 HP EVs. Twice during this streak, Sylveon survived an attack at one HP, so that single extra HP you get from this spread actually does matter.
Max Speed Timid Greninja with Mat Block is a Maison staple, and obviously, most first turns, that's the move I used. Dark Pulse is the next most important move in the set since it deals neutral damage to Steel-types, who can be irritating foes, and can hit foes on the far side of the field. Ice Beam provides wonderful coverage, and I chose Extrasensory over Grass Knot because it helps against the Poison-types that can hurt Sylveon.
Gale Wings Talonflame is another triples mainstay, and for good reason. Sylveon is heavily reliant upon Tailwind support, and nothing is better than Talonflame at setting it. Better still, Talonflame is no slouch as an attacker either. Brave Bird receives priority, hits the far side of the field with pretty good power, and is notable for beating up on the Grass/Poison types that otherwise threaten Sylveon. Flare Blitz is used far less, but is important for its ability to dent Steel-types. I honestly didn't use Protect a lot, since most of the time I was better off attacking, but there were situations where after a first turn Tailwind, Greninja and Sylveon could KO all three active foes without help from Talonflame. In these situations, I sometimes just switched Talonflame out for another attacker, typically Kangaskhan. I'm a bit tempted to replace Protect with U-turn to allow Talonflame to do a little damge when switching out. Obviously, this is moot when Talonflame doesn't need to attack at all to get the triple-KO, but there are times when it would be nice to break a Sash or finish off a low Pokemon while switching. I followed ~Mercury~'s advice and went with max HP rather than max Speed, since Talonflame gets priority on three of its moves already, and outspeeds most of the Steel-types it wants to use Flare Blitz on without any Speed investment.
My back row was not really thought out carefully, and though it served me well enough in most battles, its imperfections ended up costing me.
While best in Trick Room teams, Level 1 Aron is pretty amazing in triples generally. It draws attacks like mad and so buys free turns with Protect, and Endeavor lets it break bulky walls with ease. Toxic has corner case utility for finishing things off (Endeavor alone won't kill anything, but Toxic + Endeavor will), and I won one battle with nothing left but a 1 HP Aron thanks to Toxic. I got lazy and didn't choose a final move, which stayed Tackle by default, which punished me in my losing battle. Swagger's hardly a reliable move, but it gives some chance of finishing off a low opposing Pokemon that is immune to Poison. You never want to be in a situation where you need the foe to hurt itself in its confusion to survive, but might as well have the option as an extreme fallback.
Kangaskhan is, as always, the ultimate "good stuff" Pokemon, but I feel I might have been better with a different mega designed specifically to synergize with its teammates. Kanga was still pretty good, mind you, but didn't quite feel like she was at her best. Power-Up Punch and Return are pretty standard, and sometimes, you can PuP for "free" when you know your teammates will be able to complete a kill. PuP is also really important in helping against Steel-types. Sucker Punch is particularly unreliable in triples, where you can't always ensure that the right Pokemon will attack Kangaskhan, so I chose Crunch instead, especially since Tailwind meant that I had Speed advantage most of the time. Fake Out is always wonderful in doubles and triples, as it lets you shut down dangerous foes for a turn, often enough time for your teammates to KO them. Scrappy is absolutely the correct choice of pre-mega evolution ability, since there are occasions where you want to be able to Fake Out an opposing Ghost-type Pokemon.
Aegislash is another "good stuff" staple, and while its combination of power, priority, and ability to play defense is wonderful, I made a bad mistake in my build. In singles battles, Aegislash can often stall for a long time, making Leftovers recovery a valuable asset. In Triples, and particularly on this team, Aegislash does some baiting with King's Shield, but its main job is to hit hard and fast and finish off what its teammates have left behind. In this sort of environment, Leftovers recovery is not very useful, and I really should have used an Air Balloon, to help cover the ugly Ground-type weakness. Had I equipped one on battle 407, I would not have lost. Movewise, Shadow Sneak gets around Aegislash's poor Speed, finishes off weakened foes, and provides nice defense against Trick Room. King's Shield is great for buying free turns for Aegislash's teammates, but only rarely did I actually cripple a contact move. Sacred Sword is nice insurance against Double Team Pokemon, but is most important for covering Steel-types, which can cause problems for Sylveon. Swords Dance is great for letting Aegislash stay in Shield forme as much as possible (it's much better to Swords Dance and attack once, and so keep Shield forme up, than to attack twice and be stuck in Blade forme for an extra turn), but given the fast pace of triple battles, I might have been better served with a supplemental STAB like Iron Head.
Play notes:
In a typical battle, my first turn consists of Mat Block + Hyper Voice + Tailwind, and subsequent turns involve continued spamming of Hyper Voice with Greninja and Talonflame wearing down the Pokemon that Hyper Voice alone isn't powerful enough to KO. Usually, by the time Sylveon is KOed (if at all), I have enough of a Pokemon advantage to easily dispatch the remaining foes. I played rather "casually" during this streak, and found that the decision trees for most battles were extremely simple.
Trick Room teams might seem like a big problem, but actually, they weren't much of a threat at all. One reason for this is that even with a Trick Room user, the AI likes to go for KOs, and my flank Pokemon encouraged these attacks. Exeggutor and Trevenant, for example, will try to hit Greninja with powerful grass attacks if they are in range, while Water-type Trick Room users typically try to use Surf if they are in range of Talonflame. If I'm able to set up Mat Block and Tailwind on the first turn without Trick Room going into effect, I can usually KO the Trick Room users on the second turn before they get another chance to act. Second, since Trick Room teams are super slow, there's often no need for Mat Block and Tailwind facing multiple Trick Room users, and I can focus on killing them before they act. Brave Bird destroys even bulky Grass-types while Shadow Ball beats up on Ghost- and Psychic- types, so when I expect the AI to use Trick Room the first turn, I can often prevent it with simple attacking.
Even when Trick Room is set, my Pokemon are decently bulky and have a lot of priority options. Greninja can survive one hit thanks to its Sash and Sylveon can usually tank a hit or two, while priority Brave Bird, Shadow Sneak, and Fake Out go a long way towards victory even when Trick Room is active. Finally, the AI often makes horrible misplays with respect to Trick Room. On multiple occasions, two enemy Pokes used Trick Room on the first turn, resulting in one setting it and one removing it. Sometimes, a foe with decently fast teammates will set Trick Room the first turn and then remove it the second. Against a hard hitting team like this, foolish errors like this are quickly exploited.
Threats:
While most battles went very smoothly, like all teams, this squad has some big weaknesses. Here are the threats that really stood out during this streak.
Heatran: Heatran's powerful Steel-type attacks hurt Sylveon, while taking only 1/4 damage from Hyper Voice means it takes a lot of attacks to take it down. Typically, I'll focus on killing Heatran's partners with my lead three Pokemon, and use Fake Out and fighting attacks from my back three to actually finish it off. A strong Ground-type attack would be really useful here.
Wide Guard: Since this team is heavily focused on maximizing the power of Hyper Voice, Wide Guard really hurts me. Thankfully, Wide Guard foes use the move erratically, so I can often just avoid it, and Fighting-type users are easily dispatched by Talonflame. But the bulkier Wide Guard threats can cause problems.
Soundproof Pokemon: Soundproof Pokemon are immune to Hyper Voice, which complicates matters. Thankfully, most of them are pretty weak, and all of them have other possible abilities, so Soundproof is less of a problem than one might think. Bastiodon4, however, can be pretty evil, as it is very bulky, can have Soundproof, and also has Wide Guard. While I can wear it down with attacks from Greninja and Talonflame, and my back row covers it well, Bastiodon can often buy its teammates time to shred my front row.
Quick Claw from powerful Poison- or Steel-types: An untimely Quick Claw activation can let a foe first turn KO Sylveon before Mat Block is up, wrecking my strategy. Though it's less harmful on later turns, Quick Claw can still get around my Tailwind and stop a Sylveon sweep, though on those turns, I at least have some protection, since Priority Brave Bird still goes first, so I can often preemptively finish off a wounded Quick Claw foe even if the Claw activates.
Certain status ailments on Sylveon: Mat Block only blocks damaging attacks, not status moves, so Sylveon is very vulnerable to being statused, particularly on the first turn when Tailwind isn't up yet and slow Sylveon is my only Pokemon attacking. Burn and Poison don't matter much, as battles usually end long before their damage is relevant, but Sleep, Paralysis, and Confusion can all cause big problems for my strategy. Fortunately, the AI often prefers to afflict Talonflame and Greninja, and it's not nearly as irritating when they are statused.
How I lost:
I was defeated on battle 407 by Worker Rasmus, the Sandstorm guy. He had a front row of Tyranitar / Ferrothorn / Excadrill and a back row of Garchomp / Gigalith / Gliscor. The battle video can be found at: CFLG-WWWW-WWW9-XWHS
This was embarrassing, as I played horribly, and it cost me. Not Flare Blitzing Ferrothorn was idiotic, and though I was worried about Sand Rush on Excadrill, Brave Bird wasn't enough to kill it anyway, so there was absolutely no reason for me not to kill Ferrothorn immediately. Failing to remember I could shift Aron to the middle hurt me late in the battle, as did not having a viable fourth move on Aron (I knew Toxic was a gamble against Gliscor, which could have Poison Heal, and it ended up having it, and I should have had fourth move Swagger available to use too). An Air Balloon on Aegislash would have saved me as well. The final nail in the coffin was a couple of untimely misses against Sand Veil Garchomp, but I can hardly complain when my own play was so shoddy.
Frustrating to lose like this, but the basic idea is strong, and I believe that with refinements, this team has a lot of potential. I'll discuss my current plan in my next post.
Looking at my most recent loss, and thinking of ways to improve the team, I'm sorely tempted to double down on the hard hitting Fairy types and run a team something like:
Greninja / Mega Gardevoir (Modest with Pixilate Hyper Voice, of course) / Talonflame
Heatran / Sylveon / Filler
Mega Gardevoir hits only a little less hard than Specs Pixilate Sylveon thanks to a ridiculously high Special Attack stat, and though it is a little less bulky thanks to lower HP, it's a lot faster, making it reasonable even without Tailwind, and is able to shift a lot of EVs into HP if it assumes regular Tailwind support. Plus, it benefits immensely from being able to switch moves. Psychic gives a powerful STAB that can bypass Wide Guard, Protect can soak up attacks from Poison and Steel Types while its teammates go to work, Destiny Bond can steal a KO against something that normally would counter Gardevoir, and Calm Mind, particularly on the first turn while Mat Block is up, can enable some ridiculously hard hitting subsequent attacks. The only difficulty here, as you see, is that I've listed five attacks, so something has to get the axe.
I really wanted to add a powerful Ground-type attack to the team, and Earth Power Heatran (presumably with Air Balloon) provides that, as well as nice spread coverage with Heat Wave. Rather than having to change gears radically when my main Hyper Voicer is KOed, this squad would be able to shift in Sylveon and continue the beatings. I'm a little bit torn on the final poke. Off the top of my head Fake Out, a powerful Fighting-type move, cross-field reach, and hitting the Ghost-types that the other moves fail to are all things I am in the market for, but I'm sure I can find a good fit by playing a few battles for feel and searching through the Pokedex for options.
Note that I can also reverse things and lead with Sylveon as the initial hard hitter and keep Gardevoir in reserve. One advantage of leading with Sylveon is that move selection flexibility is, in my mind, more valuable later in the battle, so it might be better to start with the Choice locked masher. Secondly, since Mega Gardevoir has a much better Speed than Sylveon, if I expect Tailwind to wear off by the time I bring in my second Hyper Voicer, I'll be better positioned with Gardevoir in reserve. But leading with Gardevoir provides a few advantages. First is that on the turn I mega evolve, Gardevoir is still stuck with a base 80 Speed rather than base 100. That means if I use Gardevoir as a reserve, even if I expect her to come in under Tailwind, I'll need to EV her based on a lower base Speed, or risk being outrun by important things. If I use her as a lead, on the other hand, I have Mat Block protection during that turn, and so can EV based on Mega Gardevoir's better Speed. This frees up a lot of extra EVs for HP. The second advantage of leading with Gardevoir is that against many foes, rather than 2HKOing with two Hyper Voices, one shielded by Mat Block, I can often still 2HKO by Calm Minding on the first turn, and then blasting away with a powered-up Hyper Voice on the second turn. While I'll have to play close attention to damage calcs in some cases, as the single boosted Hyper Voice won't always be able to get the KOs that two weaker ones can, the extra power from a Calm Mind will make killing the foe's reserves much easier. Decisions, decisions.
To give you an idea on the EV issues, the fastest thing you'll face in the Maison after battle 40 is Manectric4, which has 258 Speed. With 236 Speed EVs, Modest regular Gardevoir reaches 130 Speed, letting it outrun everything under Tailwind.
Modest Mega Gardevoir only requires 80 Speed EVs to get to 130 Speed, letting it put 176 into HP while still maxing Special Attack. With this spread, Mega Gardevoir will have defenses of 165 / 85 / 155, very close to 12/0/0/252/0/0/244 Sylveon's 172/ 85 /150, while still being fast enough to outrun the entire Maison under Tailwind, something that Sylveon can't quite do (though it comes close, outrunning all but a few Scarfers).
You could, of course, put more Speed EVs on Gardevoir to outrun more things when Tailwind isn't active. Modest Mega Gardevoir with 252 Speed EVs, for example, reaches 152 Speed, a pretty reasonable Speed tier. Lots of choices to consider. I've bred up my Gardevoir in Black and taught it Hyper Voice in Black 2. Now I just need to decide how to EV it. A pity that this setup requires access to Black 2 for the key Hyper Voice, but hopefully that tutor will return in ORAS.
Let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions!
Greninja / Mega Gardevoir (Modest with Pixilate Hyper Voice, of course) / Talonflame
Heatran / Sylveon / Filler
Mega Gardevoir hits only a little less hard than Specs Pixilate Sylveon thanks to a ridiculously high Special Attack stat, and though it is a little less bulky thanks to lower HP, it's a lot faster, making it reasonable even without Tailwind, and is able to shift a lot of EVs into HP if it assumes regular Tailwind support. Plus, it benefits immensely from being able to switch moves. Psychic gives a powerful STAB that can bypass Wide Guard, Protect can soak up attacks from Poison and Steel Types while its teammates go to work, Destiny Bond can steal a KO against something that normally would counter Gardevoir, and Calm Mind, particularly on the first turn while Mat Block is up, can enable some ridiculously hard hitting subsequent attacks. The only difficulty here, as you see, is that I've listed five attacks, so something has to get the axe.
I really wanted to add a powerful Ground-type attack to the team, and Earth Power Heatran (presumably with Air Balloon) provides that, as well as nice spread coverage with Heat Wave. Rather than having to change gears radically when my main Hyper Voicer is KOed, this squad would be able to shift in Sylveon and continue the beatings. I'm a little bit torn on the final poke. Off the top of my head Fake Out, a powerful Fighting-type move, cross-field reach, and hitting the Ghost-types that the other moves fail to are all things I am in the market for, but I'm sure I can find a good fit by playing a few battles for feel and searching through the Pokedex for options.
Note that I can also reverse things and lead with Sylveon as the initial hard hitter and keep Gardevoir in reserve. One advantage of leading with Sylveon is that move selection flexibility is, in my mind, more valuable later in the battle, so it might be better to start with the Choice locked masher. Secondly, since Mega Gardevoir has a much better Speed than Sylveon, if I expect Tailwind to wear off by the time I bring in my second Hyper Voicer, I'll be better positioned with Gardevoir in reserve. But leading with Gardevoir provides a few advantages. First is that on the turn I mega evolve, Gardevoir is still stuck with a base 80 Speed rather than base 100. That means if I use Gardevoir as a reserve, even if I expect her to come in under Tailwind, I'll need to EV her based on a lower base Speed, or risk being outrun by important things. If I use her as a lead, on the other hand, I have Mat Block protection during that turn, and so can EV based on Mega Gardevoir's better Speed. This frees up a lot of extra EVs for HP. The second advantage of leading with Gardevoir is that against many foes, rather than 2HKOing with two Hyper Voices, one shielded by Mat Block, I can often still 2HKO by Calm Minding on the first turn, and then blasting away with a powered-up Hyper Voice on the second turn. While I'll have to play close attention to damage calcs in some cases, as the single boosted Hyper Voice won't always be able to get the KOs that two weaker ones can, the extra power from a Calm Mind will make killing the foe's reserves much easier. Decisions, decisions.
To give you an idea on the EV issues, the fastest thing you'll face in the Maison after battle 40 is Manectric4, which has 258 Speed. With 236 Speed EVs, Modest regular Gardevoir reaches 130 Speed, letting it outrun everything under Tailwind.
Modest Mega Gardevoir only requires 80 Speed EVs to get to 130 Speed, letting it put 176 into HP while still maxing Special Attack. With this spread, Mega Gardevoir will have defenses of 165 / 85 / 155, very close to 12/0/0/252/0/0/244 Sylveon's 172/ 85 /150, while still being fast enough to outrun the entire Maison under Tailwind, something that Sylveon can't quite do (though it comes close, outrunning all but a few Scarfers).
You could, of course, put more Speed EVs on Gardevoir to outrun more things when Tailwind isn't active. Modest Mega Gardevoir with 252 Speed EVs, for example, reaches 152 Speed, a pretty reasonable Speed tier. Lots of choices to consider. I've bred up my Gardevoir in Black and taught it Hyper Voice in Black 2. Now I just need to decide how to EV it. A pity that this setup requires access to Black 2 for the key Hyper Voice, but hopefully that tutor will return in ORAS.
Let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions!
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Hyper Voice/Destiny Bond/Protect with a coverage move sounds like a good bet for Mega Gardevoir. I don't think Calm Mind boosting is fast enough in Doubles/Triples to sacrifice a moveslot for one of those, especially not in the windy center position, and the SDef boost is not that useful as HP-invested Mega Gardevoir has ludicrous special bulk already and it's mostly worried about physical hits. Psychic is the obvious choice, but I could see a case for HP Ground to have something for Heatran and other Steels in the lead trio.
A back-up Heatran with Earth Power alone is not sufficient Ground coverage for a lineup with multiple Fire/Steel weak Pokémon in my opinion, and I wouldn't mind seeing the Mat Block Greninja staple Garchomp in its slot. Garchomp, in addition to being strong with Greninja and Talonflame and other Fire/Flying types (as seen in both my Doubles streaks and many appereances in Triples), has decent physical bulk and can switch in on most physical Steel and Poison (and resisted Fire and so on) moves to the center position in order to EQ away. Heatran could do that as well, but if it switches into a resisted move, which it will do often, it loses the Balloon right away and gains a weakness to EQ, which is bad news for it. Earth Power also has less power and doesn't hit the whole field like Chomp's STAB EQ does.
I don't like Specs Sylveon as a back-up when you've already got Mega Gardevoir. It shares MegaVoir's every weakness, provides no useful coverage on top, and mostly does the same thing which, 95% of the time, will have won the battle already if it was a good fit for the battle - and if it wasn't and stuff went really wrong, there's a good chance it still isn't a winning move by the time Sylveon comes in late in the match. It may also not be able to take advantage of the center position easily, as you can't always guarantee how the positions will shuffle as the match goes on, and being Choice-locked with just one usable move (that your lead center already has) when coming out late in the match, possibly after Tailwind is gone already, is not good. I'm not sure what to replace it with - good-stuffs like Rotom-W to go with Chomp and provide a 4x Steel resist and good bulk might be good. Rotom-W's also immune to Thunder Wave and doesn't mind status, which makes it good for those Roller Skaters if you want to try and keep MegaVoir and Greninja out of paralysis.
Then the sixth slot - if we're going with my suggestion of Garchomp/Rotom-W for the first two back-ups that provide good switch-ins for both Greninja and Talonflame and MegaVoir, any number of things could be ran in the last slot. Life Orb Scizor could be an option.
Well, to be honest, Garchomp/Rotom-W/Scizor are the exact back-ups my current Triples team at 400 wins employs, and they certainly work well, which is a large part of why I'm recommending them. And the team's very similar to yours in other ways as well (it's an improved version of the Heliolisk-using team), so I don't see why they couldn't work for you, too. They're not really Tailwind Pokémon, but they can make good use it and do decent in TR when Tailwind isn't the order of the day.
Thanks a bunch for the suggestions, turskain. I'm a bit obstinate, so going to at least try Mega Gardevoir along with Sylveon, but your point regarding shared weaknesses is well taken. I will at least take your advice and cut Calm Mind, and Gardevoir is moving to the back row, since Calm Mind on the Mat Block turn was part of the front row appeal for me. I thought about HP Ground too, but the low base power worries me. Sticking with Psychic for now, which is better against random type foes when I'm worried about Wide Guard, and covers most Poison-types at least as well as HP Ground, though is clearly a downgrade against most Steel-types. Chomp is definitely a good choice if I maintain sufficient ground immunity, and Rotom-W certainly handles those pesky Ground- and Fire-types well, though I hate being stuck with HP Water as my best reliable STAB. Interestingly, I'm a bit tempted by Mienshao right now. Fake Out + Fling (Razor Fang) + Non-HJK Fighting-type move + Acrobatics can buy its teammates a lot of time and hit cross-field if needed, and there's also the option of Wide Guard, which can even be spammed this generation, making it very useful both against spread attacks and in allowing something like Garchomp to Earthquake freely.
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I thought of one more idea for Sylveon+MegaVoir - running Sylveon + Mega Blastoise instead. You still get two Hyper Voice/Water Spout spammers, but don't suffer from them having the same type, and Water Spout can smash most Fires and Steels that Sylveon can't, and you can switch in MegaToise on the Mat Block turn against a lot of stuff since Sylveon won't be targeted often by something like Entei or Heatran (and a Heatran Flash Cannon won't scratch Blastoise anyway).
Edit: talking about Entei3/Heatran4 here, the Scarfed ones that can hit through Mat Block.
Thanks for the kind words; it's greatly appreciated. I'm fine with that as a policy for "copycat" streaks. I'm all for people learning to use "old" teams in new ways (I mean, that's basically what I did for my current Singles streak); the fact that adopting a different strategy with the same few Pokemon can add tremendously to a streak is part of what makes the Maison so cool. If there had been a write-up about new strategies used to get around things that caused me problems with the team (Gengar, Scrafty, Registeel 1, that sort of thing), I probably would have been downright excited by the streak. Part of what bothered me the most is that, on some level, I felt like I got pretty lucky to get to 417. I thought I played really well pretty much all the time, and I had some matches that I clearly should have lost but won anyway (e.g. Chansey beat Walrein 4 because Walrein missed on every attack and never used Rest). So it's a little frustrating to have someone get a better streak with the same team without playing perfectly and without (to the best of our knowledge) improving on how those Pokemon are used. But hey, it's not a big deal; I'm pretty over it now. It may even inspire me to try the team out again...but then, I'm more likely to just keep playing Singles until I lose or until Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire come out.
NoCheese, I'm loving the Sylveon streak; I'd love to see you try out Sylveon + Mega Blastoise!
The closest battles I generally had with my Talonflame/Blastoise/Greninja team involved Blastoise not attacking turn 1. A Tailwind Spread-nuke spam team's strength is the ability to KO the first three Pokemon by turn 2 without being attacked. That becomes difficult if you don't attack turn 1. If you're going to run Mega Blastoise as a back-up, you might as well run it as a lead because its resists are much better covered by Talonflame and Greninja with Grass Knot, which also covers any immunities not named Lanturn. Sylveon and Blastoise are also both resisted by Tentacruel, which if it's on the side opposite Greninja, may pose some problems. It tends not to do much, though.
With Blastoise (and I would expect Sylveon as well since the center spammer is so crucial to the team), usually Talonflame, Greninja, and sometimes one other Pokemon faint before it goes down. If you do run a spread spammer in the back-up, I would expect it to frequently replace one of the softeners. I would be curious as to what sort of things can survive Specs Pixiliate Hyper Voice plus Water Spout.
How often did Sucker Punch users attack Sylveon? With its rather low defense, I can see that being a concern. Was it?
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Battle Maison Super Doubles
Winning streak: 765.
Dusclops (F) @ Eviolite*
Nature: Relaxed
Trait: Frisk
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/00
EVs: 252 HP/126 Def/132 Sp.Def
Lv. 50 stats: 147/90/273/71/250/27
Moveset: Trick Room/Foresight/Night Shade/Brick Break
Dusclops is by far the best Trick Room setter there is. It is the bulkiest and one of the slowest out there.
There hasn't been a single battle where Dusclops was 1HKO'd (bar 1HKO moves), and it has only been 2HKO'd a few times. Frisk is one of the best abilities for Maison doubles as it gives you so much information turn 1. Night Shade deals consistent damage to non Normal types while Brick Break deals with Normal types. Brick Break deals enough damage to knock out Rampardos 2/4 and Bastiodon 4 after a full HP Endeavor.
Gengar's Shadow Ball (Critical Hit) vs Dusclops (102 - 120 HP) Damage: 69.39% - 81.63%
Absol's Sucker Punch (Critical Hit) vs Dusclops (102 - 120 HP) Damage: 69.39% - 81.63%
Tyrantrum's Crunch (Strong Jaw, Choice Band) vs Dusclops (96 - 114 HP) Damage: 65.32% - 77.5%
Clawitzer's Dark Pulse (Mega Launcher, Choice Specs) vs Dusclops (102 - 122 HP) Damage: 69.3% - 82.9%
Aron (M) @ Berry Juice
Nature: Adamant
Trait: Sturdy
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: Zero
Lv. 1 stats: 12/6/7/4/6/5
Moveset: Protect/Endeavor/Swagger/Toxic
Protect may be the best move this team has because it is so important to scout and to get Trick Room up. Endeavor + Night Shade / Brick Break in combination with Trick Room and Berry Juice allows Aron to knock out usually 3 Pokémon of the opponent. Swagger and Toxic are the best ''filler'' moves and are very handy when I need them (Ghosts). Swagger is way better than Sleep Talk because in the rare case Aron has been put to sleep, you only have a 33% chance to select the right move. With Swagger on the other hand, the odds for Aron to not get hit by an opponent are way better.
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Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Nature: Brave
Trait: Scrappy/Parental Bond
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Sp.Def
Lv. 50 (mega) stats: 212/194/120/80/121/108
Moveset: Fake Out/Double-Edge/Sucker Punch/Rock Slide
Fake Out creates momentum and allows Dusclops to twist the dimensions when needed while Double-Edge is Kangaskhan's strongest move. Sucker Punch deals with Ghost and Psychic types and things that are ''faster'' than Kangaskhan. Rock Slide is the best fourth move for the role Kangaskhan provides. Between 0 - 31 lies a ''magic'' IV number for a Brave (mega) Kangaskhan, but there are simply too many variables to really figure out what that magic IV number is. I went for a Brave nature with a 31 IV, and never thought about changing it.
Conkeldurr (M) @ Assault Vest*
Nature: Brave
Trait: Iron Fist
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/00
EVs: 108 HP/252 Atk/6 Def/144 Sp.Def
Lv. 50 stats: 194/211/116/75/154/45
Moveset: Drain Punch/Knock Off/Ice Punch/Mach Punch
Iron Fist Conkeldurr has all the tools I was looking for. While I am a huge fan of Aegislash (which I honestly missed every now and then), Conkeldurr is more reliable in the long run. Knock Off deals with Ghosts, Ice Punch with Flying types and Drain Punch with the rest. Boosted priority in the form of Mach Punch has been very very crucial in a few matches. The boost from Iron Fist is also crucial, damage wise. If I was to make a list of Pokémon that Conkeldurr can't 1HKO or KO in tandem with Night Shade, without Iron Fist, it would be a long list. Obviously Guts has it's uses, but you're not getting a Guts boost on a full paralysis or when you're frozen, making it only useful when burned or toxicated.
Conkeldurr was EV'd to survive a Psychic from Latias3 (Choice Specs).
Talonflame's Brave Bird vs Conkeldurr (170 - 204 HP) Damage: 87.63% - 105.15% | 31.25% Chance to OHKO
Latias's Psychic (Choice Specs) vs Conkeldurr (162 - 192 HP) Damage: 83.5% - 98.9%
Latios's Psychic (Critical Hit) vs Conkeldurr (168 - 198 HP) Damage: 86.6% - 102.06% | 12.5% Chance to OHKO
Delphox's Psychic (Critical Hit) vs Conkeldurr (168 - 198 HP) Damage: 86.6% - 102.06% | 12.5% Chance to OHKO
Mr. Mime's Psychic (Critical Hit) vs Conkeldurr (152 - 182 HP) Damage: 78.35% - 93.81%
_____
Battle Videos
Uploaded battle videos of this run
Battle #100; Chef Nicoise, CHTG-WWWW-WWW8-TFLX
Vs.
The 100th battle, nothing too special here.
Battle #132; Psychic Magus, 6MAG-WWWW-WWW9-XD24
Vs.
Battles against ghosts are always fun..
Battle #333; Battle Girl Kata, UQZG-WWWW-WWW9-XD47
Vs.
Hail and priority on turn 1.
Battle #501; Hex Maniac Ciara, YCXG-WWWW-WWW9-XD5F
Vs.
Ghosts, ghosts, ghosts..
Battle #519; Hex Maniac Ciara, C4FG-WWWW-WWW9-XVBB
Vs.
Dusclops gets frozen turn 1, no Trick Room the entire match.
Battle #588; Tourist Geneva, TDTW-WWWW-WWW9-XD6S
Vs.
Good old Walrein4 is showing up.
Battle #637; Tourist Incheon, HRYG-WWWW-WWW9-XD8N
Vs.
Why Dusclops is the best Trick Room setter.
Battle #687; Artist Rose, M9FW-WWWW-WWW9-XD9M
Vs.
The record breaking battle.
Battle #721; Garcon Darcy, HH5G-WWWW-WWW9-XQCM
Vs.
I get 5 accuracy drops from Muddy Water..
Battle #766; Battle Girl Mae, U2RW-WWWW-WWW9-XGRS
Vs.
The lost battle.
I lost because of a misplay. I decided to attack a possible Flame Body candidate (Magmortar), which ended up burning me, leading to my loss.
_____
Threat list
Please take note that ''threat'' is a word with many definitions when it comes to Pokémon.
Certain Pokémon can become a threat, depending on the situation, while some ''threats'' aren't threatning at all, depending on the situation.
Walrein 4 is by far the biggest and most consistent threat for the strategy that I started to love so much over the years (Trick Room Endeavor). Walrein 4 dates from the DPPT era, and has ended streaks of many players, including mine. Walrein 4 comes with Sheer Cold/Fissure/Rest/Sleep Talk and has effort values placed in Defense and Special Defense, Bold natured. Mega Kangaskhan (67.5% - 81%) and Conkeldurr (74.59% - 88.65%) both fail to 1HKO Walrein 4. Walrein 4 is the kind of Pokémon you want to remove as soon as possible, but due to Lax Insence, you simply don't want to miss. Quanyails stated that Pokémon with 1HKO moves will always try to take out Aron, until they find out Sturdy blocks the move. This is not true. The AI tends to take out the Pokémon they can 1HKO, which is Aron in all cases. However, 1HKO moves obviously also 1HKO Dusclops, therefor the AI tends to attack Dusclops every now and then, assuming AI's partner will knock out Aron. This also explains why Tyrantrum 4 targets Dusclops every now and then, since a Strong Jaw Choice Band Critical Hit Crunch 1HKO's Dusclops.
Every Abomasnow is a threat thanks to Snow Warning, but Abomasnow 3 and 4 are threats in particular. Both of them carry Ice Shard, which means I will lose Aron after turn 1, always. Abomasnow 1, 3 and 4 all pack Blizzard, which is a threatning move in general. Thankfully, 6th Generation was very kind to the Battle Maison, giving Abomasnow a 50% chance to have it's Hidden Ability (Soundproof).
Speaking of Hidden Abilities, La Maison is a cheater. Aurorus has a 50% chance of having it's Hidden Ability, which isn't even released yet (go figure). While Aurorus can be dealt with, easily, the fact that it summons Hail for 5 turns, 50% of the time, makes it a threat.
Tyrantrum 4 was mentioned earlier in the Walrein 4 analysis and can become one of the biggest possible threats out there. While I am usually happy to see Choice locked Pokémon (for being so predictable), Tyrantrum 4's Crunch, in tandem with Strong Jaw and a Critical Hit, has a 81.3% chance to 1HKO Dusclops. The AI went for a turn 1 Crunch on Dusclops three times, and thankfully, it never landed a Critical Hit while having Strong Jaw as ability.
Talonflame 4 has a bunch of tools to make me want to pull hairs out of my head. Talonflame's Brave Bird has a 31.25% chance to 1HKO Conkeldurr with Brave Bird, has Quick Attack to hurt Aron before it can move, and holds a Sitrus Berry meaning I can only take it out with a Night Shade / Endeavor combo if Aron is at 1 HP. Thankfully, Mega Kangaskhan can take care of Talonflame with Fake Out if it's low, but there is still a chance that Kangaskhan ends up getting burned, which happened a couple of times.
Conkeldurr 2 and 4 both carry Mach Punch and Iron Ball. Conkeldurr is slower than Mega Kangaskhan and can 1HKO it, while Mach Punchs costs me a Endeavor turn. Thankfully my own Conkeldurr deals with AI Conkeldurr very well.
Aggron 4 taunted Dusclops once, and is therefor listed in the threatslist. Aggron can be dealt with easily, as long as it doesn't taunt Dusclops.
Mandibuzz 1 taunted me once in my 360 streak so it's a Pokémon to watch out for. Mandibuzz 4 has used Swagger on Dusclops a few times, turn 1, which can turn the battle in the AI's favour, very quickly.
Lati@s 1 have Lax Incense and STAB Psychic moves to deal with Conkeldurr. They never really became a threat because I recall only missing one of them once, thankfully.
All Regigigas sets carry a bunch of annoying status moves, while one of them holds a Brightpowder. Thankfully Aron likes to destroy Veterans, so Regigigas is usually saved for last.
3 out of 4 Spiritomb's carry Sucker Punch. I usually go for Foresight + Toxic on turn 2 to deal with them. They never really became a problem as I never missed a Toxic.
All Mold Breakers are threats but Rampardos 4 deserves special mentioning. It comes with Rock Slide and Protect, carrying a Sitrus Berry. Brick Break deals enough damage to KO it after a full HP endeavor, but I still need to watch out for Rock Slide flinches and/or protect.
Thanks for reading.
_____
Previous record: (360, Dusclops / Smeargle / Aegislash / Aron).
Battle Maison Super Doubles
Winning streak: 765.
Dusclops (F) @ Eviolite*
Nature: Relaxed
Trait: Frisk
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/00
EVs: 252 HP/126 Def/132 Sp.Def
Lv. 50 stats: 147/90/273/71/250/27
Moveset: Trick Room/Foresight/Night Shade/Brick Break
Dusclops is by far the best Trick Room setter there is. It is the bulkiest and one of the slowest out there.
There hasn't been a single battle where Dusclops was 1HKO'd (bar 1HKO moves), and it has only been 2HKO'd a few times. Frisk is one of the best abilities for Maison doubles as it gives you so much information turn 1. Night Shade deals consistent damage to non Normal types while Brick Break deals with Normal types. Brick Break deals enough damage to knock out Rampardos 2/4 and Bastiodon 4 after a full HP Endeavor.
Gengar's Shadow Ball (Critical Hit) vs Dusclops (102 - 120 HP) Damage: 69.39% - 81.63%
Absol's Sucker Punch (Critical Hit) vs Dusclops (102 - 120 HP) Damage: 69.39% - 81.63%
Tyrantrum's Crunch (Strong Jaw, Choice Band) vs Dusclops (96 - 114 HP) Damage: 65.32% - 77.5%
Clawitzer's Dark Pulse (Mega Launcher, Choice Specs) vs Dusclops (102 - 122 HP) Damage: 69.3% - 82.9%
Aron (M) @ Berry Juice
Nature: Adamant
Trait: Sturdy
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: Zero
Lv. 1 stats: 12/6/7/4/6/5
Moveset: Protect/Endeavor/Swagger/Toxic
Protect may be the best move this team has because it is so important to scout and to get Trick Room up. Endeavor + Night Shade / Brick Break in combination with Trick Room and Berry Juice allows Aron to knock out usually 3 Pokémon of the opponent. Swagger and Toxic are the best ''filler'' moves and are very handy when I need them (Ghosts). Swagger is way better than Sleep Talk because in the rare case Aron has been put to sleep, you only have a 33% chance to select the right move. With Swagger on the other hand, the odds for Aron to not get hit by an opponent are way better.
____________________________________
Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Nature: Brave
Trait: Scrappy/Parental Bond
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Sp.Def
Lv. 50 (mega) stats: 212/194/120/80/121/108
Moveset: Fake Out/Double-Edge/Sucker Punch/Rock Slide
Fake Out creates momentum and allows Dusclops to twist the dimensions when needed while Double-Edge is Kangaskhan's strongest move. Sucker Punch deals with Ghost and Psychic types and things that are ''faster'' than Kangaskhan. Rock Slide is the best fourth move for the role Kangaskhan provides. Between 0 - 31 lies a ''magic'' IV number for a Brave (mega) Kangaskhan, but there are simply too many variables to really figure out what that magic IV number is. I went for a Brave nature with a 31 IV, and never thought about changing it.
Conkeldurr (M) @ Assault Vest*
Nature: Brave
Trait: Iron Fist
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/00
EVs: 108 HP/252 Atk/6 Def/144 Sp.Def
Lv. 50 stats: 194/211/116/75/154/45
Moveset: Drain Punch/Knock Off/Ice Punch/Mach Punch
Iron Fist Conkeldurr has all the tools I was looking for. While I am a huge fan of Aegislash (which I honestly missed every now and then), Conkeldurr is more reliable in the long run. Knock Off deals with Ghosts, Ice Punch with Flying types and Drain Punch with the rest. Boosted priority in the form of Mach Punch has been very very crucial in a few matches. The boost from Iron Fist is also crucial, damage wise. If I was to make a list of Pokémon that Conkeldurr can't 1HKO or KO in tandem with Night Shade, without Iron Fist, it would be a long list. Obviously Guts has it's uses, but you're not getting a Guts boost on a full paralysis or when you're frozen, making it only useful when burned or toxicated.
Conkeldurr was EV'd to survive a Psychic from Latias3 (Choice Specs).
Talonflame's Brave Bird vs Conkeldurr (170 - 204 HP) Damage: 87.63% - 105.15% | 31.25% Chance to OHKO
Latias's Psychic (Choice Specs) vs Conkeldurr (162 - 192 HP) Damage: 83.5% - 98.9%
Latios's Psychic (Critical Hit) vs Conkeldurr (168 - 198 HP) Damage: 86.6% - 102.06% | 12.5% Chance to OHKO
Delphox's Psychic (Critical Hit) vs Conkeldurr (168 - 198 HP) Damage: 86.6% - 102.06% | 12.5% Chance to OHKO
Mr. Mime's Psychic (Critical Hit) vs Conkeldurr (152 - 182 HP) Damage: 78.35% - 93.81%
_____
Battle Videos
Uploaded battle videos of this run
Battle #100; Chef Nicoise, CHTG-WWWW-WWW8-TFLX
The 100th battle, nothing too special here.
Battle #132; Psychic Magus, 6MAG-WWWW-WWW9-XD24
Battles against ghosts are always fun..
Battle #333; Battle Girl Kata, UQZG-WWWW-WWW9-XD47
Hail and priority on turn 1.
Battle #501; Hex Maniac Ciara, YCXG-WWWW-WWW9-XD5F
Ghosts, ghosts, ghosts..
Battle #519; Hex Maniac Ciara, C4FG-WWWW-WWW9-XVBB
Dusclops gets frozen turn 1, no Trick Room the entire match.
Battle #588; Tourist Geneva, TDTW-WWWW-WWW9-XD6S
Good old Walrein4 is showing up.
Battle #637; Tourist Incheon, HRYG-WWWW-WWW9-XD8N
Why Dusclops is the best Trick Room setter.
Battle #687; Artist Rose, M9FW-WWWW-WWW9-XD9M
The record breaking battle.
Battle #721; Garcon Darcy, HH5G-WWWW-WWW9-XQCM
I get 5 accuracy drops from Muddy Water..
Battle #766; Battle Girl Mae, U2RW-WWWW-WWW9-XGRS
The lost battle.
I lost because of a misplay. I decided to attack a possible Flame Body candidate (Magmortar), which ended up burning me, leading to my loss.
_____
Threat list
Please take note that ''threat'' is a word with many definitions when it comes to Pokémon.
Certain Pokémon can become a threat, depending on the situation, while some ''threats'' aren't threatning at all, depending on the situation.
Walrein 4 is by far the biggest and most consistent threat for the strategy that I started to love so much over the years (Trick Room Endeavor). Walrein 4 dates from the DPPT era, and has ended streaks of many players, including mine. Walrein 4 comes with Sheer Cold/Fissure/Rest/Sleep Talk and has effort values placed in Defense and Special Defense, Bold natured. Mega Kangaskhan (67.5% - 81%) and Conkeldurr (74.59% - 88.65%) both fail to 1HKO Walrein 4. Walrein 4 is the kind of Pokémon you want to remove as soon as possible, but due to Lax Insence, you simply don't want to miss. Quanyails stated that Pokémon with 1HKO moves will always try to take out Aron, until they find out Sturdy blocks the move. This is not true. The AI tends to take out the Pokémon they can 1HKO, which is Aron in all cases. However, 1HKO moves obviously also 1HKO Dusclops, therefor the AI tends to attack Dusclops every now and then, assuming AI's partner will knock out Aron. This also explains why Tyrantrum 4 targets Dusclops every now and then, since a Strong Jaw Choice Band Critical Hit Crunch 1HKO's Dusclops.
Every Abomasnow is a threat thanks to Snow Warning, but Abomasnow 3 and 4 are threats in particular. Both of them carry Ice Shard, which means I will lose Aron after turn 1, always. Abomasnow 1, 3 and 4 all pack Blizzard, which is a threatning move in general. Thankfully, 6th Generation was very kind to the Battle Maison, giving Abomasnow a 50% chance to have it's Hidden Ability (Soundproof).
Speaking of Hidden Abilities, La Maison is a cheater. Aurorus has a 50% chance of having it's Hidden Ability, which isn't even released yet (go figure). While Aurorus can be dealt with, easily, the fact that it summons Hail for 5 turns, 50% of the time, makes it a threat.
Tyrantrum 4 was mentioned earlier in the Walrein 4 analysis and can become one of the biggest possible threats out there. While I am usually happy to see Choice locked Pokémon (for being so predictable), Tyrantrum 4's Crunch, in tandem with Strong Jaw and a Critical Hit, has a 81.3% chance to 1HKO Dusclops. The AI went for a turn 1 Crunch on Dusclops three times, and thankfully, it never landed a Critical Hit while having Strong Jaw as ability.
Talonflame 4 has a bunch of tools to make me want to pull hairs out of my head. Talonflame's Brave Bird has a 31.25% chance to 1HKO Conkeldurr with Brave Bird, has Quick Attack to hurt Aron before it can move, and holds a Sitrus Berry meaning I can only take it out with a Night Shade / Endeavor combo if Aron is at 1 HP. Thankfully, Mega Kangaskhan can take care of Talonflame with Fake Out if it's low, but there is still a chance that Kangaskhan ends up getting burned, which happened a couple of times.
Conkeldurr 2 and 4 both carry Mach Punch and Iron Ball. Conkeldurr is slower than Mega Kangaskhan and can 1HKO it, while Mach Punchs costs me a Endeavor turn. Thankfully my own Conkeldurr deals with AI Conkeldurr very well.
Aggron 4 taunted Dusclops once, and is therefor listed in the threatslist. Aggron can be dealt with easily, as long as it doesn't taunt Dusclops.
Mandibuzz 1 taunted me once in my 360 streak so it's a Pokémon to watch out for. Mandibuzz 4 has used Swagger on Dusclops a few times, turn 1, which can turn the battle in the AI's favour, very quickly.
Lati@s 1 have Lax Incense and STAB Psychic moves to deal with Conkeldurr. They never really became a threat because I recall only missing one of them once, thankfully.
All Regigigas sets carry a bunch of annoying status moves, while one of them holds a Brightpowder. Thankfully Aron likes to destroy Veterans, so Regigigas is usually saved for last.
3 out of 4 Spiritomb's carry Sucker Punch. I usually go for Foresight + Toxic on turn 2 to deal with them. They never really became a problem as I never missed a Toxic.
All Mold Breakers are threats but Rampardos 4 deserves special mentioning. It comes with Rock Slide and Protect, carrying a Sitrus Berry. Brick Break deals enough damage to KO it after a full HP endeavor, but I still need to watch out for Rock Slide flinches and/or protect.
Thanks for reading.
_____
Previous record: (360, Dusclops / Smeargle / Aegislash / Aron).
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To be honest with this thread, just like previous gens', it is abundantly clear which users should be credited with really innovating and theorymoning various strategies and I'm sure everyone else is thankful for that anyway. It would be nice to see users give credit to the original strategist, but really anyone who spends enough time on this thread/ lurking will understand that anyway and having something like that would just mean constantly mentioning users who don't really post here anymore like peterko and jumpman for any singles team which isn't just 3 offensive pokemon. And even then I don't think anyone is interested in having petty arguments over which idea is whose or whether X team is just an adjusted Y and then that detracting from the streak.
I also feel that it's quite harsh to take an attitude like that with newer users. I mean to get a streak above 300 represents at least ~24 hours play without factoring in breeding and training, but then to have done that and posted on here and be met with hostile words can't be pleasant and it doesn't encourage people to stick around. I mean for sure it's nice when people add to their posts, especially if they've spent more than a day working on the record, but I feel its unfair to try and enforce something like that.
I'm a little confused with the quoting, since in my full post I made pretty clear that I recognize that there's value added to the discussion from different people posting streaks with the same team, and support continuing to place such streaks on the leaderboard. I think we try pretty hard to be welcoming in this thread, and certainly hope that the discussion regarding "copycat" streaks hasn't changed that!
I've updated the leaderboard through here. Congrats to Eppie on taking over the top spot in doubles! Also note that Eppie's asked me to remove his previous doubles streak from the leaderboard, so though I'm fine with multiple streaks listed for one player, I've removed the leaderboard reference to his previous 360 win doubles streak. As always, please let me know if there are any errors or omissions!
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I'm playing Mega Blastoise + Sylveon at the moment with Blastoise in the lead. Greninja Grass Knot + Blastoise does play a better anti-counter game than Greninja Extrasensory + Sylveon, especially since Sylveon can't switch among its attacks to handle different sorts of resists (Aura Sphere for Empoleon, Ice Beam for Dragons and Grass-types, etc.), so once I'm running both of them, I agree that Blastoise is the better choice to lead. Protect is fairly unexciting for the fourth move since powerful Electric-type attackers tend to open with attacks on Greninja and Talonflame because of their lower bulk, but is still probably the best choice available. I don't switch Blastoise out on the first turn all that often, since in bad matchups for Water Spout it can often get KOs out of its support moves, so I hate to lose the first turn attack, but the turn one switch remains a nice option to have.
While Sylveon still finds ways to get into the middle slot, you are correct that it often comes in on the wings. This isn't too big of a problem, and it's fun when I can get both healthy Blastoise and Sylveon active together, as very, very little can take a full power Water Spout + Specs Pixilate Hyper Voice. That the Pokemon on the far side is safe from a winger Sylveon has yet to be a problem, and late in battle I can even use Sylveon's turn to shift into the middle if really needed. Sucker Punch on Sylveon is a non-issue, as it happens very rarely, in my experiences with both this team and my previous lead Sylveon squad.
In short, I'm extremely happy with the Greninja / Mega Blastoise / Talonflame lead and backup Sylveon plan. My biggest question mark remains my filler Pokemon. Currently I'm using Aron and Air Balloon Heatran, both of which are doing reasonably well, but don't wildly excite me. Heatran is quick enough under Tailwind, can play the spread game with Heat Wave, provide very helpful Ground-type coverage with Earth Power, and even do modest damage cross-field with Dragon Pulse. The final move is Hidden Power: Ice, which I have yet to actually use, and may be better as Protect. Had I the option to capture another Heatran, I might also be tempted by Hidden Power: Grass, which is convenient against bulky Water / Ground types that often have Water-type immunity granting abilities. Aron is the same Aron we all know and love, so not much needs to be said. It's still the best bait Pokemon in the Maison.
While the team has a clear Electric-type weakness up front, I haven't found this to be problematic as the team still hits Electric-types hard, so I'm not desperate for a resist. I also skew heavily towards special attacks, which can make Blissey a bit irritating, and an additional physical attacker might be wise. Garchomp is obviously one good possibility. I don't want to lose access to Outrage on my current Garchomp since I often use it in singles (silly lack of move tutors in X/Y!), so probably should go and RNG up another to be my dedicated triples Chomp with Dragon Claw, but haven't had the time for that yet. And Mienshao remains strangely alluring, since it can use Fake Out + Fling to buy a ton of time for the spread attackers, hit cross field with Aura Sphere or Acrobatics, protect the team against opposing spread attackers by spamming Wide Guard, hit reasonably hard with Low Kick or Drain Punch, and even cover Ghost-types that laugh at most of the other attacks with Knock Off. Sadly, Mienshao can't run all these moves at once, so picking what I really want it to focus on may be difficult. I'll certainly post once I go beyond this brainstorming and actually test out a changed lineup in battle.
Chomp gets outrage via egg move, so you should be able to re-learn it. Unless transferred Pokemon behave differently?
Yeah, the move relearner won't let you relearn egg moves on a transferred Garchomp. I tested yesterday. Frustrating.
EDIT: Actually, the problem is likely that I tutored Outrage onto Garchomp in Black 2, rather than bred Outrage onto it. So that might also explain the inability to relearn the move, since Chomp didn't technically learn Outrage as an egg move.
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Well I think I'm done trying to make Sandstorm work, at least for now. I haven't been able to make a noteworthy streak in about 5 attempts, my highest was 56 just now, only to be swept by a Veteran's lead Thundurus and Virizion spamming Focus Blast which did not miss one damn time. I can't be too bitter though as I actually have no idea how to beat them with my current team anyway so it's not like I feel too cheated or anything... I might give it another go sometime with some changes but I've been spending too much time on this with not a lot of success. What I was rolling with in the end was:
[Taking suggestions on name] (Tyranitar) (F) @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Protect
Imperfect breed that I hung onto just because it's shiny, it's meant to be a mega t-tar on Battle Spot but hatched with everything 31 except attack (11 lol)... She would probably be much better off being adamant with HP investment instead of speed, with some other move instead of Dragon Dance.
Hans (Excadrill) (M) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Sand Rush
Adamant Nature
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Drill Run
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Protect
I'm no RNGer, nor could I be bothered trying to breed a really good one in fifth gen, but I really wanted Iron Head (seriously why is this a tutor-only move?). This guy has got like 25+ across the board though so thought it'd be good enough. I went with Drill Run because without a Swords Dance or Life Orb, Earthquake wasn't powerful enough against two opponents, and also meant I had to Protect with Tyranitar. I originally had Excadrill in the back to clean up with it's crazy speed with Sand Rush active, but moved him up to the front just to change it up which worked for the most part. It made me very weak to water and fighting straight off the bat though which made using Protect a bit harder, more often than not it was Tyranitar being targeted though so it worked a bit.
Darude (Mega Garchomp) (M) @ Garchompite
Ability: Sand Veil -> Sand Force
Naive Nature
252 Attack / 4 Sp Attack / 252 Speed
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
This guy hits really, really hard. Like I said, I originally had him in the lead to hit hard straight away, but I found that too many things threatened him and I had nothing to switch to. I tried to make him the centerpiece of the team so I was hesitant to move him but he did a much better job finishing matches than starting them. If / when I revisit the team, I think it would be best to go full physical with maybe Dragon Claw / Rock Slide / Swords Dance. Draco Meteor was good for opposing dragon types and the odd physical wall, but I was very hesitant to use it because of the accuracy, and it also meant that it and Flamethrower would be useless after that. I tried to use him under Tailwind but I found it hard to get both sand and Tailwind up at the same time and get him in safely, probably better suited to triples...
Virgil (Zapdos) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Pressure
Timid Nature
4 HP / 252 Sp Attack / 252 Speed
- Discharge
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Protect
- Sandstorm
My rotating fourth member of the team. I could not figure out what to use to be honest, why not Dis-Quake spam? If I had access to it I would have used Tailwind and Heat Wave over Hidden Power and Sandstorm. Actually his movepool is (imo) so barren in gen six right now, Sandstorm was just filler but it saw some use. Roost would have been nice in a couple situations but yeah didn't use it... Other fourth members included Roserade and Talonflame
I'm sure I could get further if I were a better team builder (also battler) but I feel like a dedicated sand team is tough to use anyway. I went back to the Battle Subway thread for some ideas and noticed that sand teams didn't get particularly long streaks there, so I knew it was going to be tough. I just really wanted to try and sneak onto the board somewhere with something a bit different but it will have to wait... As always, any advice is very welcome!
I also have a shitload of flawless female Larvitar spitbacks if anyone wants one!
[Taking suggestions on name] (Tyranitar) (F) @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Jolly Nature
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Protect
Imperfect breed that I hung onto just because it's shiny, it's meant to be a mega t-tar on Battle Spot but hatched with everything 31 except attack (11 lol)... She would probably be much better off being adamant with HP investment instead of speed, with some other move instead of Dragon Dance.
Hans (Excadrill) (M) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Sand Rush
Adamant Nature
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
- Drill Run
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Protect
I'm no RNGer, nor could I be bothered trying to breed a really good one in fifth gen, but I really wanted Iron Head (seriously why is this a tutor-only move?). This guy has got like 25+ across the board though so thought it'd be good enough. I went with Drill Run because without a Swords Dance or Life Orb, Earthquake wasn't powerful enough against two opponents, and also meant I had to Protect with Tyranitar. I originally had Excadrill in the back to clean up with it's crazy speed with Sand Rush active, but moved him up to the front just to change it up which worked for the most part. It made me very weak to water and fighting straight off the bat though which made using Protect a bit harder, more often than not it was Tyranitar being targeted though so it worked a bit.
Darude (Mega Garchomp) (M) @ Garchompite
Ability: Sand Veil -> Sand Force
Naive Nature
252 Attack / 4 Sp Attack / 252 Speed
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
This guy hits really, really hard. Like I said, I originally had him in the lead to hit hard straight away, but I found that too many things threatened him and I had nothing to switch to. I tried to make him the centerpiece of the team so I was hesitant to move him but he did a much better job finishing matches than starting them. If / when I revisit the team, I think it would be best to go full physical with maybe Dragon Claw / Rock Slide / Swords Dance. Draco Meteor was good for opposing dragon types and the odd physical wall, but I was very hesitant to use it because of the accuracy, and it also meant that it and Flamethrower would be useless after that. I tried to use him under Tailwind but I found it hard to get both sand and Tailwind up at the same time and get him in safely, probably better suited to triples...
Virgil (Zapdos) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Pressure
Timid Nature
4 HP / 252 Sp Attack / 252 Speed
- Discharge
- Hidden Power (Ice)
- Protect
- Sandstorm
My rotating fourth member of the team. I could not figure out what to use to be honest, why not Dis-Quake spam? If I had access to it I would have used Tailwind and Heat Wave over Hidden Power and Sandstorm. Actually his movepool is (imo) so barren in gen six right now, Sandstorm was just filler but it saw some use. Roost would have been nice in a couple situations but yeah didn't use it... Other fourth members included Roserade and Talonflame
I'm sure I could get further if I were a better team builder (also battler) but I feel like a dedicated sand team is tough to use anyway. I went back to the Battle Subway thread for some ideas and noticed that sand teams didn't get particularly long streaks there, so I knew it was going to be tough. I just really wanted to try and sneak onto the board somewhere with something a bit different but it will have to wait... As always, any advice is very welcome!
I also have a shitload of flawless female Larvitar spitbacks if anyone wants one!
Togekiss is a really good back-up mon for those who like to run Tailwind Water Spout.
From my experience Eruptran wasn't that really good, neither was Typhlosion, while I did like Rotom-W alot.
A Pokémon like Garchomp is mandatory because it is immune to Electric type attacks and you simply need extra physical power.
~ Ditching Outrage for Dragon Claw is a must, if you need it for other battle modes, breed another one.
~ I'd suggest 252 Atk / 252 Speed for Talonflame, unless you ran damage calculations why you aren't running that spread. Hit Points are far more important to Blastoise than any other team member, therefor you want to trick the AI into attacking Talonflame / Greninja, rather than Blastoise. When I created the team I theorymon'd about using 0/31/0/x/0/31 Talonflame and 0/x/0/31/x/31 Greninja to put them into so much more KO ranges for STAB or SE moves from the AI, just to keep Blastoise ''safer''.
I may not be in a position to judge since I only got a 467 streak with the initial Tailwind Water Spout team, but in my opinion Talonflame / Mega Blastoise / Greninja is mandatory to lead with, and Garchomp is mandatory to be in the back. While Sylveon and Gardevoir are really cool mons, I don't think they can offer what Mega Blastoise has to offer as a lead.
From my experience Eruptran wasn't that really good, neither was Typhlosion, while I did like Rotom-W alot.
A Pokémon like Garchomp is mandatory because it is immune to Electric type attacks and you simply need extra physical power.
~ Ditching Outrage for Dragon Claw is a must, if you need it for other battle modes, breed another one.
~ I'd suggest 252 Atk / 252 Speed for Talonflame, unless you ran damage calculations why you aren't running that spread. Hit Points are far more important to Blastoise than any other team member, therefor you want to trick the AI into attacking Talonflame / Greninja, rather than Blastoise. When I created the team I theorymon'd about using 0/31/0/x/0/31 Talonflame and 0/x/0/31/x/31 Greninja to put them into so much more KO ranges for STAB or SE moves from the AI, just to keep Blastoise ''safer''.
I may not be in a position to judge since I only got a 467 streak with the initial Tailwind Water Spout team, but in my opinion Talonflame / Mega Blastoise / Greninja is mandatory to lead with, and Garchomp is mandatory to be in the back. While Sylveon and Gardevoir are really cool mons, I don't think they can offer what Mega Blastoise has to offer as a lead.