Ladder Balanced Hackmons

AWailOfATail said:
What I run (not on a computer right now so I actually forget, lol) is U-Turn/Parting Shot and Milk Drink. The next two moves really depend on what kind of set you're looking to run. Some options include Aromatherapy, Defog, Stealth Rock, Metal Burst, Nuzzle, Knock Off, Whirlwind, King's Shield, Infestation Moonblast, and to some extent Taunt and Encore (slow speed makes those two better for Prankster). I'm a fan of messing with Imposter, so I personally like Knock Off. Stealth Rock is, in my opinion, best suited for non-Magic Bouncers, simply due to Imposter, so that's also a strong possibility. For a Magic Bouncer, something like Defog and Whirlwind could be a stronger option, as it can act as overall hazard control and phaser. But if you're lacking Aromatherapy and you feel like your team needs it, that can be fit on as well. I think that self-switch and recovery is a must, but from there, it really depends on the rest of the team's needs.
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-mega-audino-qc-0-3.3563722/ there was an analysis planned, but it didn't go on. This analysis wasn't QCed, which means it might be of a lower quality compared to uploaded analyses, but I don't think there's something really wrong.
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Thank you both for your help, I cant wait to use this mon in the future!
 
BH Doubles huh. Looks interesting I think, even though I probably suck at doubles meta in general blame om for having very few doubles meta.

How would the banlist be decided? It wouldn't make sense if it has the same banlist as regular BH, because as you know, Doubles format is very different from singles in general.
 
Chopin Alkaninoff said:
BH Doubles huh. Looks interesting I think, even though I probably suck at doubles meta in general blame om for having very few doubles meta.

How would the banlist be decided? It wouldn't make sense if it has the same banlist as regular BH, because as you know, Doubles format is very different from singles in general.
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Obviously it will start with the BH banlist. This is an untested meta. We will adjust the banlist appropriately once we start playing.
 
First thought: Blue Orb Kyogre with Steam Eruption paired with something highly resistant or, better, immune using Helping Hand.

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Helping Hand Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey in Heavy Rain: 543-639 (77.1 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Anyway, for those unfamiliar with doubles, a quick run down: doubles is much faster paced than singles and is heavily offensive slanted, since purely defensive Pokemon can be taken down quite easily. Pokemon tend to either fall into attacker roles or support roles. Strategies such as Trick Room, weather, etc. are also many times more potent, especially since a match can easily be over, or mostly so, by the time the duration runs out. Either way, except to be building entirely different defensive/support Pokemon (bye bye Poison Heal's dominance) and for your attackers to feel a little weird too.


Also, everyone first thinking of Dark Void. Yes, it'll be potent. But remember, Smogon Doubles and VGC both lack sleep clauses for a reason.
 
I am calling a dark void ban. Doubles doesn't have a sleep clause BECAUSE dark void is Banned(that's why darkrai is unbannded) and VGC is considered toxic due to the sole presence of smeargle(way more than because of ubers). Dark void would make the meta extremely volatile, both by making it hax reliant, and by multiplicating the presence of random dark voids and magic bounce, without any other strategic interest than just spamming sleep. I could actually see safeguard being a thing just for that.

Anyway, the meta looks incredibly fun. Boomburst seems super strong, and the possibility to have wide and quick guard will probably make -aters both centralizing and easier to play around offensively than it is in singles.
Imposter Chansey will probably be broken (ban worthy?) due to the lack of offensive answers without unacheivable levels of synergy.
 
Are there any Doubles-specific effects* viable in BH Doubles?

*Examples:
  • Plus/Minus - When both allies have it, they both get a 50% boost to SpA. Also, Magnetic Flux is a Cosmic Power-like boost to both allies at once.
  • Sweet Veil - Like Insomnia, but affects both allies.
  • Victory Star - Boosts accuracy of both allies.
  • If two allies use Grass Pledge and Water Pledge on the same turn, then it creates an effect equivalent to a double-strength Tailwind for your team, plus (at least as coded on Showdown!) you always get the 50% STAB bonus.
 
Flower Gift + Primal Groudon looks like a fun gimmick maybe, but Cherrim is pretty trashy so maybe not
Prankster Probopass with After You paired with Specs Aerilate Ray means +1 priority boombursts
 
After playing a bit of bh doubles with dark void ban, here are the results:
Boomburst is good, but not that much, as being spread weakens it, and it hurts your allies.
On the other hand, Pdon and MegaTar are really good at spamming pblade+diamond storm to hurt for huge damage, especially after a shift gear boost.
Registeel is amazing as it is a general tank that can provide wide guard, follow me, quick guard... support with a great bulk. With sitrus berry, it easily survives 3-4 turns while your opponent is focussed on bigger threats, making it a huge nuisance.
Redirection and Tailwind are both extremely strong. Shedinja is also especially good, as it can scout with spiky shield, and if your opponent doesnt have anything for it on the field it can just completely neuter the opponents with wide guard/follow me/spore...
While chansey didnt get to shine that much in my games, I am pretty sure it has a big potential, as it is even harder to wall. It makes things like Tailwind, Icy wind and prankster thunder wave support even more valuable.
 
CallMeLefty said:
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While chansey didnt get to shine that much in my games, I am pretty sure it has a big potential, as it is even harder to wall. It makes things like Tailwind, Icy wind and prankster thunder wave support even more valuable.
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I would like to know how Imposter vs Imposter works in doubles.
Does it copy the poke on the mirrored spot or random ?

Lets have some fun in that meta.
 
Imposter copies the opponent directly across from you. Which makes it less reliable since, say, if you had a Pokemon out who you absolutely needed to stay out, but it was across from the Pokemon you absolutely needed to Imposter, then you're kinda screwed.
 
Yeah whenever you use arceus disguise it as arceus ghost by choosing that one in the teambuilder. It's ok, i have fallen for it too before.
 
The number 1 reason that Imposter isn't banned in BH Singles is that you have complete control over how good it is against your team. In Doubles, this is not the case. It is not enough to imposterproof a Pokemon with a single ally that wins 1v1; the Imposter may simply choose to target your other active Pokemon, or have its ally remove the counter for it. The same is true for Pokemon that imposterproof themselves, such as Judgement Mega Gengar. The 2v2 nature of the Doubles format requires different strategies. In some very specific cases, certain methods of imposterproofing in singles also work in doubles. Otherwise, one must either use at least two Pokemon to imposterproof each team member (2 allies or 1 ally and itself), or rely on moves like Wide Guard and Follow Me. Below, I will attempt to explain (in no particular order) every potential strategy I can think of, along with any reasons why they may prove ineffective or unreliable.

Double-Proofing
This is essentially just standard imposterproofing, except more complicated. Building an entire team where every Pokemon imposterproofs itself and is also imposterproofed by an ally, or simply by two different allies, is obviously much harder to do than single-proofing, but can be done. Cores consisting of two Pokémon are still possible: Mold Breaker Mega Gengar and Unaware Aegislash, for example, counter each other rather nicely. However, since this is a doubles format, they would both need to be active at the same time to put a full stop to Imposter, making them very vulnerable to attacks like Thousand Arrows, Snarl, and Knock Off. A more varied option is making cores of three, where each Pokémon counters the other two. However, this will require double switching if you don't have two of the three active at once. Combinations of four, five, or even all six Pokémon are most likely possible as well, and potentially even better, but they would be very difficult to build and would most likely involve way more double switching. Of course, this entire strategy can be blasted through if the Imposter's ally KO's one or both of the Imposter's counters, allowing the Imposter to sweep away anything else that tries coming in.

Imprison
Imprison has always been a way for any Pokémon to imposterproof itself, and affects all active opponents in Double and Triple Battles. This means you can use it to stop your opponent from using moves like Wide Guard, Extreme Speed, or Stealth Rock. However, it suffers the same problems that it does in Singles: it takes up a moveslot and is useless against most other Pokémon, so trying to use it on the turn you predict an Imposter switch-in will usually be wasted if they Imposter your other Pokémon or don't switch at all. If they do come in and you haven't clicked Imprison, then you've got a 50/50 chance to just lose the speed tie, which will probably cost you the game if you haven't got a back-up plan. Additionally, Imprison is stolen by Snatch, which I believe will be a common way to bypass Wide Guard and Quick Guard, and it goes without saying that you can't use Imprison if one of your opponent's Pokémon uses it first. In summary, Imprison is has the potential to be a very powerful strategy, but can easily backfire.

Team/Field Abilities
It's actually possible to imposterproof things in BH Doubles with just one Pokemon through the use of abilities like Desolate Land, Lightning Rod, Magic Bounce, etc. as long as your active Pokémon don't care about any moves that get around these abilities (if the Imposter even knows any). Of course, this makes your own Pokémon more easily countered by your opponent as well, so be very careful. This strategy can be used to help with double-proofing, if you're trying the self+ally approach.

Wide/Quick Guard
While it may seem counterintuitive, putting Quick Guard on a revenge killer or Wide Guard on your Mega Launcher Origin Pulse Kyogre is a neat way for a Pokémon to protect itself and its ally from Imposters, though the best you'll get out of that is a sort of stalemate between the two Kyogres while the other two Pokémon do whatever. It should be noted that simply having a Pokemon on your team with these moves is not enough, because unless it happens to already be in, the Imposter gets a free turn as it comes in.

Follow Me / Rage Powder
Any Doubles or Triples player will tell you that Follow Me and Rage Powder are extremely important to have, and this is extra true in BH Doudown, because it can help a Pokémon run some real coverage as long as its ally can tank it all. Whether any Pokemon can actually manage to take the kind of punishment that running Follow Me in BH Doubles is likely to bring down upon it remains to be seen.

Dynamic Duos
If you'll excuse the informality of the name, Dynamic Duos are pairs of Pokémon that only work when both are active together, and don't work well when apart. For example, utilizing Plus and/or Minus can allow some Pokémon to actually out-damage their Imposters (or at least keep up with them in the case of Pikachu). Other examples include Fusion Flare/Bolt and the Pledge moves.

Tailwind
Like Imprison, Tailwind is an imposterproofing strategy that technically does work in standard BH, but is generally seen as something of a joke due to it only lasting for three turns, not counting the turn you use it. In doubles, however, that duration is effectively extended to six turns, since two Pokémon get to use it at once. Not to mention, doubling speed in such a hyper-offensive meta is almost always useful.

I'm sure there's at least one thing I haven't thought of, and there's really no telling how the meta will turn out, but I think these predictions will prove pretty accurate. Well, not until I mention that if any Imposter has the right ally, every single one of these strategies just loses.
Edit: almost all of them lose if that ally is another Imposter.
 
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Also mind, you need to remember: one of Imposters biggest advantages is it out-bulks its victim, which means, against non-proofed/resistant sets, Imposter wins in a straight slug match. However, in Doubles, Imposter now has to worry about two Pokemon targeting it if there's not a Follow Me-esque user as its current partner. So throwing Imposter out against a standard sweeper doesn't automatically beat the sweeper, since it and its partner might just shrug and both punch it in the face.

Of course, you could play that to your advantage with some clever strategy.


You also cannot scout nearly so freely in doubles with Imposter due to how costly a manual switch can be, which also hurts one of Imposter's biggest utilities.


Anyway, my point being in the past few posts: Imposter will probably still be pretty strong, but it'll be significantly weaker than it is in singles. Still very viable though. But if you put your whole focus into dealing with an Imposter, you're really going to get wrecked by teams lacking Imposter.
 
Imposter may be extremely powerful in BH Doubles, but it's nowhere near as important as the elephant in the room: Dark Void.
Dark Void is most commonly seen on Mold Breaker Mega Aerodactyl. This means:
A 64% chance to sleep both active Pokemon, a 32% chance to sleep one active pokemon, and a 4% chance to sleep neither.
It cannot be blocked by Wide Guard or King's Shield.
Mold Breaker means you bypass Sweet Veil and Magic Bounce (Sweet Veil does not force its user to wake up before it takes its turn - only Insomnia and its clones do)
It gets around redirection.
The only ways to not be slept by Aerodactyl are to have Insomnia or to be running Prankster Safeguard. (Or have a faster taunt, but this risks Aerodactyl carrying Mental Herb)

Mandating Prankster Safeguard on every team is almost certainly overcentralizing. I request a quick-ban of Dark Void. (Spore should stay as not only does it only sleep one thing at a time, it can be redirected easily)

Now, I'd like to talk about probably the best moves in BH Doubles: Wide-Guard and Follow Me.
Wide Guard has amazing properties. It can block Boomburst, Diamond Storm, every physical ground move(except dig), and Water Spout/Eruption. All of these are extremely devastating to be hit by and being able to protect an ally from them is amazing. Wide Guard lets you completely negate Boomburst, most Groudons, (watch out for Sacred Fire though) Kyogres, and more. It's so good to the point where Boomburst's ability to hit everything on the field is a liability now. Techno Blast is no longer just a niche move to smash Soundproof - It also gets by Wide Guard (And does more damage to an individual target than Boomburst).

Follow Me is currently underused on the ladder. Redirection is phenomenal in the meta. Have a strong attacker weak to your opponent's -ate? No problem - Just redirect their Extreme Speed with a Prankster Follow Me. Spread moves aren't affected by Follow Me, which can lead to 50/50s between Wide Guard and Follow Me.
 
Ok I wanna talk about a very potent core that I have been using to sweep teams lately...

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386-speed.gif


Deoxys-Speed @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Void
- Helping Hand
- Gravity
- Taunt / Magic Coat / King's Shield

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Substitute
- Shift Gear
- Quick Guard

Lol these two just destroy the meta (well mostly Primal Groudon), but when paired with Deoxys-Speed, it can become truly deadly. Deo is able to sleep both members of the opposing team quite easily turn 1 thanks to Quick Guard support from PDon to block priority moves. Then Deoxys-S sets up Gravity while PDon can either setup a Shift Gear or go behind a Substitute. At this points pretty much almost over as Deoxys-S can just Helping Hand and Pdon just keeps clicking Precipice Blades and stuff just dies (or unless is they wake up, Deo clicks Dark Void again). Its pretty effective and this core always puts in work in KOing at least 2-3 mons per battle. Here is an example of a battle in which these two just sweept:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/bhdoubles-429251087

Dark Void is a problem yeah, wouldn't mind banning it if we could.
 
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