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Creative and Underrated Sets in Balanced Hackmons

Uselesscrab

Uselesscrab

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Approved by Eevee General, OP stolen from ginganinja by way of Adrian Marin and Ranger Mike

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Creative and Underrated Sets in the Balanced Hackmons Metagame

1. What is a creative moveset?
  • It has not previously been widely used.
  • It successfully pulls off a role, and is not strictly outclassed by other Pokemon in that role.
  • It takes advantage of metagame trends.
  • It has had some success. Post replays / logs to strengthen your case.
2. What is an underrated moveset?
  • It is an existing set that for whatever reason isn't common.
  • Its use is meant to prey on specific facets of the metagame.
  • It might be able to surprise and demolish Pokemon that normally counter the usual sets, but does not become a bad gimmick in order to do so.
If what you post is a bad gimmick, your post will be deleted.

3. What are some things that constitute a bad gimmick? (includes examples from the old thread!)
  • Using a Pokemon that has no business being used in Balanced Hackmons, for the sake of using it in Balanced Hackmons (e.g. a remarkably common one: level 1 Magikarp when it is strictly outclassed by Ferroseed and Heatran, and perhaps even Sturdy Shedinja)
  • Movesets that are inferior and ineffective compared to existing movesets (e.g. Mega Rayquaza with setup and Baton Pass), or use an obscure move for the sake of hitting an even more obscure check or counter
  • Movesets that are utterly impractical or are horribly outclassed by another Pokemon (e.g. Rotom-Wash with any moveset)
  • This is a Balanced Hackmons thread. Don't post some Ariados set.
A bad gimmick is not limited to the above, though. The moderator team and I will use our best judgment to determine which sets should be deleted. (Get it, because Judgment is used in a lot of underrated BH sets? I crack myself up)

Rayquaza-Mega @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet / Flare Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature
Move 1: Oblivion Wing
Move 2: Tail Glow
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power/Blue Flare/Taunt/Leech Seed/Magma Storm/Spore or Dark Void

Xerneas @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP 252 SpA / 4 Spe OR 4 HP / 252 Sp A / 252 Spe
Modest or Timid or a defensive Nature
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Blue Flare / Thunderbolt
- Quiver Dance / Stealth Rock / Recover

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick/Low Kick/Close Combat
- Diamond Storm
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Quiver Dance
- Spore/Dark Void

Diancie-Mega @ Earth Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 SpD
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Spore / Fake Out

Sceptile-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch / Taunt / Spore

Zekrom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 132 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Strike / Fusion Bolt
- Crabhammer / Other coverage dependent on the team
- U-turn
- Nuzzle

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite / Black Sludge
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
- Entrainment
- Thousand Waves
- Giga Drain / Taunt
- Roost

Giratina @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow
- Secret Sword
- Judgment
- King's Shield

Xerneas @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Moonblast / Light of Ruin
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Earth Plate
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave / Seed Flare / Secret Sword
- King's Shield
- Judgment
- Ice Beam

Arceus @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Boomburst
- Quiver Dance
- Shadow Ball / Baton Pass

Ampharos-Mega @ Magnet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Electric Terrain
- Nature Power
- Tail Glow
- Slack Off

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 4 SpA / 128 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draco Meteor / Shadow Ball
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- King's Shield

Arceus @ Stone Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Flamethrower / Lava Plume
- Quiver Dance
- Recover / Leech Seed

Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Trick

Latias-Mega @ Soul Dew
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 128 Def / 252 SpA / 128 SpD
Modest Nature
- Psystrike
- Spacial Rend
- Recover/kings shield
- Searing Shot

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Focus Energy
- Psycho Boost
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat

Diancie-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thrash / Return
- Extreme Speed
- V-create / Boomburst
- Bolt Strike / Explosion / U-turn

POWER (Garchomp-Mega) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Claw / Dual Chop
- U-turn / Trick
- Precipice Blades

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 160 SpA / 96 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Growth
- Draco Meteor
- V-create
- Drain Punch/Synthesis

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Safety Goggles/Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Storm Throw
- Bonemerang
- Ice Shard
- U-turn/Shadow Sneak/Dual Chop/King's Shield/Fake Out/Mach Punch

Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Quiver Dance
- Moonblast
- Will-O-Wisp

Sceptile-Mega @ Draco Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Seed Flare
- Infestation (or your favourite filler)
- Spore

Zekrom @ Leftovers / Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Defog / Rapid Spin
- Volt Switch
- Dual Chop
- Recover / Knock Off / Icicle Crash

Gengar-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave/King's Shield
- Tail Glow

Reshiram @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 8 Def / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spiky Shield
- Tail Glow
- Blue Flare
- Spacial Rend

Slaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Final Gambit
- Infestation
- Recover/Taunt
- Spikes

Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot/U-Turn

Diancie-Mega @ Iron Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Judgment
- V-create
- Draco Meteor
- King's Shield / Leech Seed

this above hide tag will be updated at regular intervals
 
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Latias-Mega (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Spacial Rend
- Psystrike
- Earth Power/Steam Eruption

I Made this pretty late in XY BH, and with early ORAS, this was one of the monsters on my team. In the BH metagame now, Cursetina has become so much more popular, Along with Mega Diancie and Mega Rayquaza.

This completely beats Cursetina and appreciates support from Soundproof Mega Slowbro and Registeel. Also, Since Scorrchingtheaph brought up Imposter, Lum Berry Shedinja counters this set completely.

[Replays On Their Way]
 
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CorruptedFlame said:
Latias-Mega (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Spacial Rend
- Psystrike
- Earth Power/Steam Eruption

I Made this pretty late in XY BH, and with early ORAS, this was one of the monsters on my team. In the BH metagame now, Cursetina has become so much more popular, Along with Mega Diancie and Mega Rayquaza.

This completely beats Cursetina and appreciates support from Soundproof Mega Slowbro and Registeel.

[Replays On Their Way]
Click to expand...
I don't see how you can imposter-proof this.
Once it gets to +1, Spd Soundproof Mega-Bro can't even switch-in, even at full health.
+1 252+ SpA Mega Latias Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 237-279 (60.3 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and because high crit ratio and maybe lucky punch,
+1 252+ SpA Mega Latias Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro on a critical hit: 355-418 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
only +3 is needed for the guaranteed OHKO on Spd Mega-Bro, but I think most Soundproof's run Defensive anyways to counter fakespeed -ate.

For Registeel, walling this will be easier. Registeel won't be able to do much except inflict status, switch the opponent out or get rid of boosts.
Assuming fully Spd, it may still be troublesome if you aren't at fully hp.
+1 252+ SpA Mega Latias Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 184-218 (50.6 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ SpA Mega Latias Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 368-434 (101.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you're Levitate or not running Earth Power though, you can avoid getting OHKO'ed at +6
+6 252+ SpA Mega Latias Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 300-353 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you're a skilled player though, you can win the speed tie, crit and get a high roll.
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Latias Spacial Rend vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 596-704 (84.7 - 100.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
 
Here we go, reposts of my sets from the old thread. At least, the ones that didn't get deleted, if any did. Some have been tweaked slightly to accomodate new changes since they were posted or to prove potential value.


Rayquaza-Mega
EVs: 252 SPA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
Abilities: Quick Feet, Flare Boost
Nature: Modest
Item: Flame Orb
Move 1: Oblivion Wing
Move 2: Tail Glow
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power/Blue Flare/Taunt/Leech Seed/Magma Storm/Spore or Dark Void

You already know Mega-Ray. You already might know my old Skymin set. This one combines the two and swoops into the tier as an excellent clean-up sweeper capable of dismantling a weakened team whose counters are either eliminated or are in no position to counter. By packing a Flame Orb, Ray can choose to either outspeed the entire unboosted metagame or get a significant boost to its attack power. The residual damage may seem a little counter-intuitive to Balanced Hackmon's usual focus on recovery, but Ray's primary choice of attack, a Tail Glow boosted Oblivion Wing, can bring it back to full from even the brink of death. Ray's high speed, plus the sheer amount of healing a boosted Oblivion Wing grants, makes Ray surprisingly difficult to take down despite its otherwise modest defenses.

Even if the opposing Imposters are not removed before set-up, Ray generally doesn't fear them as they can't copy its ability boosts, can't safely switch into Oblivion Wing, and Ray can OHKO even a full HP Imposter Eviolite Chansey with Ice Beam. It's last move slot can simply be devoted to additional coverage, such as Earth Power and Blue Flare, Shedinja-killing duties, such as Leech Seed or Magma Storm, abuse Ray's status immunity with Spore or Dark Void, or shut down stuff like Furcoat Chansey with Taunt.

Because Ray is frail and has a number of weaknesses, you should try to save it for the later game, though don't be afraid to bring it out early if you see a safe opportunity to wreck some havoc. Its generally meant to operate on its own with little support, but something that can switch into its main weaknesses, Ice, Flying, and Fire, would be ideal, such as a Flashfire Steel type, Kyogre, or Darm-Z, among others.




Here's one I think I posted in the main thread a good while back. I've not used it in a while myself since none of my current teams synergize well with it, but I can assure you that it works.

Umbreon
Type: Dark
Base Stats: 95 / 65 / 110 / 60 / 130 / 65
Abilities: Fur Coat, Unaware, Poison Heal
Item: Leftovers, Safety Goggles, Toxic Orb
Move 1: Foul Play
Move 2: Your favorite Recover variant
Move 3: Will-o-Wisp/Sacred Fire
Move 4: Swagger, Spiky Shield, or another status/support/escape move such as D. Tail, Rapid Spin, Volt Switch, Taunt, Heal Bell etc.

Umbreon has the distinction of being the bulkiest mono-Dark type and, while Gyarados-Mega, Tyranitar-Mega and Yveltal have similar bulk, Umbreon lacks their particular vulnerabilities, such as Yveltal's and T-Tar's numerous weaknesses from their Flying and Rock typing, respectively, Gyarados' Bolt Strike weakness, or Gyra's and T-Tar's susceptibility to Low Kick (especially T-Tar). Because of it's low weight, Low Kick is only base power 70 against it, which means even if it's Mewtwo-X doing the kicking, Umbreon isn't really noticing. (Though watch for Close Combat or Super Power from X-Two if you're not Fur Coat and/or it is not burned).

While three abilities are listed, they all play rather similarly, though with minor differences. Fur Coat hard walls most physical attackers, Unaware lets it force out or defeat boosted sweepers (especially Shell Smash, Belly Drum users, and those reliant on Stored Power to bypass Unaware), while Poison Heal fits a more general support role (and can scrap the Recovery move if necessary). But even still, all three of them can answer a lot of the same mons regardless of ability, such as Refrige Kyu-B.

Umbreon's primary attack is Foul Play, which is a rather nifty move that uses the opponent's attack power instead of Umbreon's paltry base 65. Additionally, if the opponent has attack boosts from Swords Dance and the like, Umbreon quite literally has those same boosts added to Foul Play, even if using Unaware. And on top of it, if the opponent is burned, Foul Play doesn't care and will use their full attack power against them (though mind, if Umbreon is burned it will cut Foul Play's damage, so watch for bouncers if using Will-o-Wisp). You last moveslot is very flexible and should be taken based on your team's needs. Though keep in mind Umbreon's offenses are very low, so it should not run an offensive move.

It should be stressed that Umbreon really dislikes special attackers since many of them run 0 attack IVs and EVs with an attack reducing nature just for the occasional Foul Play, making it do very little damage. It can still defeat certain ones, such as Mewtwo-Y and Gengar-Mega fairly well because of their physical frailty combined with their high attack even when minimized, or most Shell Smashers and some who forget to minimize attack power, but you'll need an answer for others, particularly Boomburst Pixilate Diancie. Aegislash and Xerneas are two generally good potential partners who come to mind.

(Some modern calcs)

252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Umbreon: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 62.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 219-258 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Umbreon: 150-176 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 92-108 (38.1 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(Both Mega-Ray and Mega-Diancie can run Boomburst though, which will really hurt, so some scouting is necessary. And I know those numbers aren't great for Umbreon on Diancie, but it struggled with Xern and Yveltal pre-ORAS too anyway since they both tended to run mixed sets. Registeel is a better general purpose wall, but I still feel 'Breon has its niche, even though you'll have to build around it to cover the special side of things, like using Chansey or an AV regen or something.)


Deoxys-Speed
Type: Psychic
Base Stats: 50 / 95 / 90 / 95 / 90 / 180
Abilities: Prankster, Frisk
Item: Choice Scarf, Lagging Tail
Move 1: Trick
Move 2: Spore/Dark Void
Move 3: Destiny Bond
Move 4: Volt Switch/Parting Shot

This thing is hanging around on a Gen V dick Trick team I have sitting around that, for whatever reason, starts sucking whenever I try to update it but works rather well otherwise. It was specifically designed as an anti-lead at the time and it continues to serve that same function. The idea here is Scarf Prankster outspeeds the entire tier that isn't using Extreme Speed, including other Pranksters, letting you fling one at any leads that look like they'd hate it (I.E: most of them) and likely crippling them to some degree. If it doesn't look like Scarf would do much to them, simply switch out to try again later. From there, the set is fairly straight forward by providing sleep support and D Bonding an opposing sweeper. It can also be a "Trick shield" should your opponent be packing it themselves since Deo-S can easily rid itself of whatever item they're trying to give you.

Frisk can be used if you're scared of an Assault Vest, and is a handy scouting tool, though it may alter your opponent that you're not a stereotypical sleep/hazard suicide lead. Lagging Tail is also more effective against some threats (Ytwo becomes a joke when it always moves last), but ineffective against others like opposing Pranksters, priority abusers, and slow stuff that isn't moving first anytime soon anyway.


Xerneas @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP 252 SpA / 4 Spe OR 4 HP / 252 Sp A / 252 Spe
Modest or Timid or a defensive Nature
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Blue Flare / Thunderbolt
- Quiver Dance / Stealth Rock / Recover

Someone copied my set from the main topic and posted it to the gimmick set on their own, so technically my set was posted. This was written before Diance-M, but you can probably sub her doing this set and use something like Power Gem for an additional STAB if you wish.

Anyway, this is simply a hard-hitting attacker that requires no set-up to get going, though can use it if you wish. It has great coverage that hits extremely hard with Sheer Force + a Life Orb boost. And, since the LO is a big component of its damage, it's easier for you to wall Imposters than it is easier for them to wall the original, barring Knock Off. Fairy / Ground provides great coverage while Blue Flare and Thunderbolt deal with more specific threats, like Flashfire Registeel or Kyogre. Feel free to swap in stuff like Seed Flare or Ice Beam for specific threats to your team.

With some luck on speed ties, it can generally defeat its own Imposters, but it'll sometimes lose. Depending on coverage will depend on your anti-Imposter check, though Shedinja works in a pinch since you can never land an accidental burn with your secondary effects.


Mientwo

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick/Low Kick/Close Combat
- Diamond Storm
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This set is basically a Mewtwo-X that thinks it's Mienshao. And it works quite nicely, actually. Offensive Regenerator is really an overlooked strategy that allows a Pokemon with already good power, such as Xtwo here, provide constant pressure on the opposing team without needing to stop and heal, rely on Wish support, or fear getting worn down. Additionally, it can use the Life Orb with little risk to its longevity, something that a lot of other Pokemon wish they could say. Although if you need a different item, like a Choice Band or Safety Goggles, then by all means.

The Fighting-STAB of choice depends on preference. Close Combat is the most reliable, but also makes Xtwo rather revenge-killable. Low Kick hits a lot of things just as hard, but also tickles some other threats. High Jump Kick has nice power, and is great if you have a Spiky Shield, King's Shield, or safe Ghost switch-in to an Imposter, but it also risky for the same reasons. Beyond that, Diamond Storm allows this set to hit most Fighting resists, mainly Flying, Bug, Ghost, and Psychic, all for neutral or super effective damage (except Aegislash). Knock Off provides more coverage, again hitting all Fighting resists, notably including Aegislash, while providing item removal support and high damage. Finally, U-Turn is a handy tool for scouting, maintaining momentum, and escaping from trapping. Of course, if you need different moves for coverage, like Bolt Strike to deal with Kyogres who annoy your team, then again, by all means, as this set is flexible.

It should be noted that this does not have the power of a wall breaker or a set-up sweeper. That's fine because that's not its goal. Its job is to maintain consistent, offensive pressure to wear the opposing team down. If it can get some KOs along the way, then even better. But generally, it wears things down so something else can clean-up.



Kyoltal

Yveltal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Pulse
- Quiver Dance
- Spore/Dark Void

This is quite an unexpected set to run into as most people think you'll be using the usual defensive Yveltal (Koff / King's / Circle / filler) or the offensive, Bird-spam Yveltal once they see that Toxic Orb go off. As such, people tend to switch in their Aggrons and other, physically oriented responses to those sets, or switch out things that'd have a chance against this one but not the others, giving a free set-up opportunity.

As you could expect from the given moves, this set plays similarly to Adrian's Kyogre set. Put things to sleep and start setting up. But it's only similarly, not identically. While Kyogre wants to keep it's HP high in order to smash stuff with Water Spout, Yveltal can make itself very difficult to KO by the powerful healing effect of Oblivion Wing coupled with Poison Heal. Therefore, while Kyogre can be rendered a non-threat by the proper check hitting it hard enough soon enough, Yveltal can just siphon it's HP back. Though, I'll be fair, Kyogre's damage output is much higher, so this set isn't necessarily superior, just an alternative.

Anyway, Dark Pulse is used over Night Daze, normally something I'd advise against, because this set is meant to counter Imposters on its own and the last thing you want is an Imposter forcing you out because of accuracy drops. Still though, Night Daze can be used if that doesn't concern you. Additionally, either STAB can be replaced with coverage if you need to, but Flying/Dark provides quite nice coverage as is, only notably resisted by T-Tar off the top of my head, and Yveltal will sorely miss either move. (Sustainability from Oblivion Wing, ability to remove stuff that otherwise laugh at most PH Yveltals with Dark Pulse, such as Giratina, ironically enough.)



Manectric-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Volt Switch
(Steam Eruption can replace anything that's not Thunder.)

Quite simply, a Rain Team sweeper, based on an old Jolteon set I ran in Gen V. Manectric has one of the strongest Thunders in the game with the only notable betters are Ampharos, who is dirt slow, or Proteans like Ytwo, who, well, probably has a lot of other moves to run being a Protean.

Basically, hit frail things hard and fast with Thunder in the rain, getting a basically free LO boost since Dry Skin out heals the recoil. It also soft counters many Water-types, being able to switch into their STAB for free (though a boosted Kyo is still a menace.). Taunt shuts down walls that Manectric can't byass and Volt Switch for momentum.



Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Spacial Rend
- Stealth Rock / Volt Switch
- Recover

Yeah, this is actually an old set, but still a really scary one, especially post 510. If you're running a rain team, don't overlook this. If they don't have a dedicated wall that works against this, something dies every time it switches in. And if they do, just throw some rocks out. Or Volt Switch for momentum. Need to wall Imposters of this? Look no farther than stuff like Water Absorb Xerneas. Or just predict the switch-in and nail it with a Spacial Rend.


When I get a little more time, I'll go see if I can find a couple of others I sprinkled around on other threads.
 
replying to a post from the last thread
dsm77773 said:
I don't know how creative this is, but Fire/Fighting Judgment on Mega Ray's 4th slot over its common coverage moves like Low Kick, Magma Storm and Precipice Blades makes Imposter easier to wall (at the cost of losing to Shedinja) and this way teambuilding it's easier as the Imposter is locked in a mono-Flying coverage so you just need a bulky Steel or Rock-type instead of a dedicated Flash Fire or Levitate wall.
Click to expand...
judgment -ate is actually rly good, pre-gk bans i ran earth plate diancie to a lot of success (beat flint in ompl :J) and i imagine its still p good even with don being used far less now - fairy/ground is perf coverage, and it has the imposter-proofing that you mentioned. here's the set i ran:

Diancie-Mega @ Earth Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 SpD
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Spore / Fake Out
 
Two more, though I feel like I have one or two lurking somewhere I posted but can't find....

Sceptile-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch / Taunt / Spore

After messing around with a type-coverage calculator for probably far too long, I determined this was the best possible reckless coverage, or close to it, that can be paired with a Grass-STAB and benefit from Sheer Force. Sheer Force LO Seed Flare is the main move of choice, and it hits scarily hard. Earth Power and Ice Beam is purely for coverage, the former to nail Fire and Steel types, the latter for Dragon, Flying Grass, and, on occasion, Bug, although what bug is out that is common and not Scizor? Either way, all three moves are Sheer Force boosted, so not only do they get that, but also recoil free LO boost.

Last slot has a lot of possibilities, but I went with the first three that came to mind. Volt Switch causes LO recoil, but it's great for seizing momentum while inflicting damage. Sceptile is extremely fast, so it also has one of the fastest Taunts available, especially without having to worry too much about a return bounce. Sceptile is also the fastest user of Spore who is naturally immune, meaning Bounce is never a worry except when ultra gimmicks like Soak appear. Whichever of the three, or another, we use should probably depend on our teammates. (Set-up could also work too, but this set is meant more to hit fast and hard without it.)

The set is vulnerable to Imposters in this state. Luckily, some bulky mons, like Ho-Oh, Xerneas, and Kyu-B, can take neutral hits from everything or better and threaten Imposters without having to dip into abilities. With them, we get stuff like Levitate Heatran, Sap Sipper Kyogre-P, Levitate Aegislash, and so forth. We could also remove the LO and swap Ice Beam for Icicle Plate Judgement if we want Sceptile to handle its own Imposters. And, worst case scenario, Chansey won't have a LO, so its attacks won't hit our team as hard as Sceptile hits theirs.

We'll also need an -ate check for the one -ate on the opposing team since Sceptile is vulnerable to all of them. But then again, unless something else happens, having an -ate check will likely be necessary anyway. Someone else will have to answer Sheddy too. Hazards would work great for this since Sceptile would benefit from them greatly even if Sheddy wasn't a thing, but other means are also worth looking into.

Modest because the only things it wants to outspeed already do with the same nature (Aerodactyl-M), aren't too common (Manectric-M), or tend to run offensive natures themselves last I checked and are therefore outsped anyway (both Mewtwos). But Timid can easily be used instead.


(This one was written up pre Primal bans, so some of its EVs may be able to be shifted from SpD and its second slot may prefer different coverage.)

Zekrom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 132 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Strike / Fusion Bolt
- Crabhammer / Other coverage dependent on the team
- U-turn
- Nuzzle

When I saw Adrian post a PH Kyo-P set, I knew we'd be seeing that around just like his last PH Kyo popped up on a lot of teams. So, I immediately set out to make a counter set for it that could also be functional beyond just countering Kyo-P. This Zekrom set was born as a result.

I did have a much more complicated one that ensured a OHKO with Fusion Bolt 100% of the time on Adrian's EV spread (in case Bolt Strike's acc was undesirable) while being able to survive either Stealth Rock damage or one round of Leech Seed plus a +2 Ice Beam to deliver said OHKO. But then, I realized this set would probably prefer Adamant over Jolly, so I was able to just dump more EVs from Attack into SpD and still have slightly higher attack power and bulk. If we opt for Fusion Bolt for accuracy reasons, or for Careful instead of Adamant, some SpD should be shifted back into attack.

However, I'm nominating this set to deal with other Kyogres, since our own won't be too effective against them, especially if they're running coverage that can hit Water, such as Moonblast on Adrian's older PH Kyo or, as someone else suggested, Freeze-Dry. Hence, this set is designed to OHKO 252 HP/252 Def Kyo-P 100% of the time with Bolt Strike while being able to still take boosted attacks.

120+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Kyogre-P Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Zekrom: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Additionally, as someone said, Kyo isn't -ate immune. However, it takes Kyu-W's Boomburst very well, still resists Kyu-B's Fakespeed, and Diancie is weak to Waterspout, so is risky to use. Zekrom likes none of these three, but it can take on Mega-Ray since it is only weak to its occasional use of 1k Arrows/Precipice Blades. Worst case scenario, it takes a hit, Nuzzles it to cripple, and then switches to safety while healing.

252+ Atk Rayquaza-M Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 262-310 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Aerilate Rayquaza-M Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Zekrom: 123-144 (30.4 - 35.6%) -- 36.6% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Rayquaza-M Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 318-375 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

120+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 261-307 (63 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Current coverage I've picked is for anti-Imposter. If an Imposter copies the set, it can't really hurt Zekrom and it cannot cripple it with Nuzzle. I also picked Crabhammer to try to catch predicted Groudon-P switch-ins, though this does not work against Desolate Lands variants. However, depending on team make-up, over coverage may be desirable, such as maybe Meteor Mash to try to catch Diancie-M on the switch. Nuzzle is finally there for crippling would be sweepers, especially since Clerics are kind of rare in the current meta. Protean Mewtwo-Y might be scary, but paralyze it and it quickly becomes a joke.
 
This may have been denied a section of its own in the Venu analysis, but that does not make this set bad by any means. I've been using this on half my teams and it does not disappoint at all.

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite / Leftovers / Black Sludge(if you want to bluff trick)
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
- Entrainment
- Thousand Waves
- Giga Drain / Taunt
- Roost

The 2 main thing that differentiates this set from other Flash Fire walls are its typing and Thousand Waves. Thousand Waves lets you trap and eliminate Diancie, Tyranitar, PH Arceus, and Imposters (obviously Imposters have to be on the switch as there's no way they'd stay in after seeing your set). Taunt lets you take this a step further by preventing such walls as Registeel and Audino-Mega from using Parting Shot to pivot out. But the real difference is Entrainment. Entrainment forces PH walls to take ever-increasing damage from their Toxic Orbs while they are unable to switch out. Venusaur can come in on and trap Tyranitar without offensive EV's, Jolly PH Arceus, and Kyogre if one chooses to run a Specially Defensive spread. The EV's prevent a 2HKO from Jolly Arceus's Facade after Rocks while still letting you be as specially defensive as possible. Flash Fire was added to absorb Mega Diancie's most common coverage moves as well as Sacred Fire from Tyranitar and Will-o-Wisp from Aegislash. Taunt is somewhat risky to run, as Imposters can win the speed tie and prevent you from recovering for 3 turns. However, it helps a lot in PP stalling and allows you to trap walls that run Parting Shot or Baton Pass as their only pivot move.
 
disclaimer: I totally stole this idea from the speed boost aegislash in the old thread

Giratina @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow
- Secret Sword
- Judgment
- King's Shield

Giratina - otherwise known as The Great Wall in Ubers because it's a cold hard stop to most physical attackers, it usually runs a physically defensive set in BH using Fur Coat or Poison Heal. This set plays off that expectation to very often net you a surprise kill - bring it in with a slow baton pass or just switch it in directly against support mons using a defog / aromatherapy. As they switch in Mega Mewtwo Y or Mega Rayquaza to give you a whipping, you tail glow - Gira's excellent bulk lets it live even Refrigerate E-speed from Life Orb Mewtwo X, meaning it can take one priority hit, while King's Shield blocks Fake Out and nets you that nifty Atk drop.

252 SpA EVs at +3 guarantees Judgment OHKOs on pokemon such as M-Ray, MMY, offensive Dialga and Xerneas, while max Speed EVs with neutral nature lets it outspeed MMY after a single boost. If you're willing to give that up, Gira outspeeds everything relevant after two boosts and appreciates the extra bulk to tank random Sucker Punches.

Note: This loses to everything that resists/is immune to Judgment and doesn't get hit SE by Secret Sword, such as Yveltal, though Yveltal still can't switch in. MAudino however is a giant pain as it barely gets 2HKO'd by Secret Sword even at +6 and can cripple you with status.

Overall Giratina doesn't have Aegi-Blade's power and misses the ability to run Poison coverage to hit Audino, but it benefits from a much better base speed, excellent overall bulk that lets it set up a tail glow easily and the surprise value of running offensive Giratina.

Peace out~


edit: changed Protect to King's Shield. Thanks dsm~
also collecting replays if you want them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-286970305
 
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Zeronix said:
disclaimer: I totally stole this idea from the speed boost aegislash in the old thread

Giratina @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow
- Secret Sword
- Judgment
- Protect

Giratina - otherwise known as The Great Wall in Ubers because it's a cold hard stop to most physical attackers, it usually runs a physically defensive set in BH using Fur Coat or Poison Heal. This set plays off that expectation to very often net you a surprise kill - bring it in with a slow baton pass or just switch it in directly against support mons using a defog / aromatherapy. As they switch in Mega Mewtwo Y or Mega Rayquaza to give you a whipping, you tail glow - Gira's excellent bulk lets it live even Refrigerate E-speed from Life Orb Mewtwo X, meaning it can take one priority hit, while Protect blocks Fake Out (necessary because it WILL die to supereffective fakespeed.)

252 SpA EVs at +3 guarantees Judgment OHKOs on pokemon such as M-Ray, MMY, offensive Dialga and Xerneas, while max Speed EVs with neutral nature lets it outspeed MMY after a single boost. If you're willing to give that up, Gira outspeeds everything relevant after two boosts and appreciates the extra bulk to tank random Sucker Punches.

Note: This loses to everything that resists/is immune to Judgment and doesn't get hit SE by Secret Sword, such as Yveltal, though Yveltal still can't switch in. MAudino however is a giant pain as it barely gets 2HKO'd by Secret Sword even at +6 and can cripple you with status.

Overall Giratina doesn't have Aegi-Blade's power and misses the ability to run Poison coverage to hit Audino, but it benefits from a much better base speed, excellent overall bulk that lets it set up a tail glow easily and the surprise value of running offensive Giratina.

Peace out~
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Idk if this set is good honestly, but at least replace Protect with King's Shield or Spiky Shield. They're just better due to their secondary effects, Protect is just outclassed in BH.
 
Updated the OP with my favorites of the ones so far. Remember to submit replays; with some of these sets, it's very difficult to imagine how they function without seeing them in an actual battle!
 
Tbh bad gimmicks should be allowed and tagged as bad gimmicks. Get some conversation and discussion going on about them and I can imagine a few being developed into actual underrated sets.
 
Plastic Surgery (Giratina-Origin) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Close Combat
- Judgment
- Recover
- Baton Pass


Pros:
- Imposter proof... kinda.
- You'd be surprised how much passing a couple defensive buffs can help.
- If you can get it in unharmed on Gengar, it can take a Spooky Judgment and OHKO in return.

Cons:
- Chansey can still BP the boosts. I have it paired with a Prankster Heart Swap Aegislash for this kind of situation.
- Can't safely switch in on Gar :(

Will try to update with replays, but the team it's currently on looks like something that would lose to any half-decent team, particularly anything with V-Create, so I'll have to fix that...
 
Jiibriil said:
Plastic Surgery (Giratina-Origin) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Close Combat
- Judgment
- Recover
- Baton Pass


Pros:
- Imposter proof... kinda.
- You'd be surprised how much passing a couple defensive buffs can help.
- If you can get it in unharmed on Gengar, it can take a Spooky Judgment and OHKO in return.

Cons:
- Chansey can still BP the boosts. I have it paired with a Prankster Heart Swap Aegislash for this kind of situation.
- Can't safely switch in on Gar :(

Will try to update with replays, but the team it's currently on looks like something that would lose to any half-decent team, particularly anything with V-Create, so I'll have to fix that...
Click to expand...


This feels a bit gimmicky for a Baton Passer/Contrary user. While it does both, it doesn't look like it does both well. Imposter immunity is nice but... that's not a big deal here. Anyway, lemme break it down.

1. Boosting is only defensive, on an 8 PP move, that can be hard walled. Most opposing Giratina can switch in and prevent this set from boosting. Sure, you have Spooky Judgement, but Giratina-A isn't going to give a rats ass about an uninvested Spooky Judgement from Giratina-O. Not to mention, Gengar can switch in on a Close Combat and threaten serious damage with its own Judgement. Then you have things like Mega-Audino or Yveltal. Or Shedinja. Plus Spiky Shield stops the boost and inflicts damage.

2. Knock Off weak. This is true for nearly all Judgement users, but worth mentioning regardless.

3. Anti-boosting weak. The critical component to a Baton Pass chain is Substitute, since that stops Topsy-Turvy, Leech Seed, and Imposter, among other moves, along with shuffling from Dragon Tail and Circle Throw. It doesn't stop Heart Swap, Haze, or Whirlwind, but can't cover it all on one set anymore (setting a Sub with Magic Bounce used to be enough back in Gen V). Either way, there's nothing stopping someone from just using Topsy-Turvy, which will ensure both momentum for them since you'll be defensively weak, AND waste your precious little PP. Most Contraries get around this by being offensively scary with boosted Draco Meteors and stuff, but this Giratina-O won't have the presence needed against teams with any decent bulk.

4. Imposter-proof, yeah, but the Imposter can wait for you to get some boosts, come in to copy them, and then just safely pass the boosts to a teammate of its own. After a Close Combat or two copied, it'll scoff at Judgement and it'll have time to heal up any HP loss. The Imposter will likely switch out once they see the set, either passing boosts or not, and then do something like this later.

5. Passing defense boosts on their own isn't too helpful against stall-centric teams, who are probably doing mostly residual damage anyway.


Baton Pass does work on a Contrary, but it really needs to be a filler move on a more standard set than something trying to put passing as a priority. Baton Pass also works on its own without Contrary, but needs standard boosting to really shine. Either way, personally, I feel this set id trying to do too many things at once and really should be modified and cut one of them out. Otherwise it's just doing an inferior job compared to other, more straight forward sets.
 
Gengar-Mega @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Substitute / Pursuit
- Shell Smash

Standard moldy set-up gengar with a twist. Pursuit lets you trap and kill Shedinja while Substitute blocks priority, and you outspeed all users of Boomburst after a Shell Smash anyway.

The real innovation here is Toxic Plate over Spooky Plate. Granted, an imposter is 4x resistant to Poison Judgment, but you're still imposter-proof since an imposter does absolutely nothing to you while you can take your time setting up a sub/another shell smash. Poison Judgment lets you get past your usual counters (namely, PH Yveltal and M-Audino, both of which resist your STAB combination. The former can KO you back with Sucker Punch or Knock Off while the latter takes laughable damage even from +2 Secret Sword and can proceed to Haze away your boosts.)

calcs:
+2 252 SpA Toxic Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Yveltal: 375-442 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. (A.k.a you can beat it with just a little bit of prior damage since Yveltal usually runs Knock Off over Sucker Punch for the utility. If not, you can always scout with Substitute first.)

With Toxic plate, you can still OHKO both Mewtwo formes despite not being super-effective. You don't even sacrifice important coverage since Secret Sword hits most steel-types harder anyway (read: Registeel / Dialga).

calcs:
+2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Secret Sword vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 388-458 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 318-376 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (beware of Prankster Destiny-Bond though, that will quickly end your sweep. If this is a big problem for your team, you can run Worry Seed over Substitute on the third slot.)

Unfortunately this set is hard-walled by all Aegislash variants, but almost nobody uses it since it's entirely outclassed by Registeel outside of being able to imposter-proof a Judgment sweeper with Poison coverage. You also lose to opposing M-gengar since Poison Judgment is 4x resisted and only does about 50% damage even at +2, while it can easily OHKO you back. All Giratina variants also wall you as your Judgment does only 40% against it. Then again, who in their right mind would send out a ghost against a boosted M-gengar?

Overall a rather fun M-gengar set that sacrifices the ability to sweep Ghosts for the ability to break past its usual defensive counters. It usually manages to net at least one surprise kill per match, so have fun using it :D


Edit:
Apparently, sludge wave spooky plate gengar is still imposter-proof after a boost since it ohko's imposter with ghost judgment but doesn't get ohko'd by sludge wave. Feel free to ignore post then since this set is outclassed outside of being able to ohko defensive yveltal at +2 D:
 
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Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance / Tail Glow
- Secret Sword
- King's Shield / Infestation

You might be looking at your screen and be like "this is the worst arceus set I've ever seen in my life seriously" but trust me, it works. Kind of. With multitype and spooky plate arceus becomes a ghost type, but thanks to uh... BH mechanics it displays it as a normal type. Of course you can bluff it as any type you want, even ghost. Good players know that arceus can't change type without multitype so they will 100% of the time think it is a normal type and thus, go for their fighting move, and be surprised as it bounced off this horse's body. Imposters, who can't touch arceus will also stay in and go for the secret sword, again not doing anything. Quiver dance is just a good move and king shield stops you from being forced out by -ates. Tail glow can also be used but quiver dance is my preference since it boosts speed. Also infestation is a good option to trap imposter chanseys and kill shedinjas.
 
Zeronix said:
Gengar-Mega @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Substitute / Pursuit
- Shell Smash

Standard moldy set-up gengar with a twist. Pursuit lets you trap and kill Shedinja while Substitute blocks priority, and you outspeed all users of Boomburst after a Shell Smash anyway.

The real innovation here is Toxic Plate over Spooky Plate. Granted, an imposter is 4x resistant to Poison Judgment, but you're still imposter-proof since an imposter does absolutely nothing to you while you can take your time setting up a sub/another shell smash. Poison Judgment lets you get past your usual counters (namely, PH Yveltal and M-Audino, both of which resist your STAB combination. The former can KO you back with Sucker Punch or Knock Off while the latter takes laughable damage even from +2 Secret Sword and can proceed to Haze away your boosts.)

calcs:
+2 252 SpA Toxic Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Yveltal: 375-442 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. (A.k.a you can beat it with just a little bit of prior damage since Yveltal usually runs Knock Off over Sucker Punch for the utility. If not, you can always scout with Substitute first.)

With Toxic plate, you can still OHKO both Mewtwo formes despite not being super-effective. You don't even sacrifice important coverage since Secret Sword hits most steel-types harder anyway (read: Registeel / Dialga).

calcs:
+2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Secret Sword vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 388-458 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 318-376 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (beware of Prankster Destiny-Bond though, that will quickly end your sweep. If this is a big problem for your team, you can run Worry Seed over Substitute on the third slot.)

Unfortunately this set is hard-walled by all Aegislash variants, but almost nobody uses it since it's entirely outclassed by Registeel outside of being able to imposter-proof a Judgment sweeper with Poison coverage. You also lose to opposing M-gengar since Poison Judgment is 4x resisted and only does about 50% damage even at +2, while it can easily OHKO you back. All Giratina variants also wall you as your Judgment does only 40% against it. Then again, who in their right mind would send out a ghost against a boosted M-gengar?

Overall a rather fun M-gengar set that sacrifices the ability to sweep Ghosts for the ability to break past its usual defensive counters. It usually manages to net at least one surprise kill per match, so have fun using it :D
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Toxic Plate is inferior to just running Sludge Wave - it may be slightly weaker, but gar isn't worth using w/o ghost stab
 
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- V-create
- Superpower

One of the few contrary sets that can self check itself without the help of a teammate. Ho-Oh has access to STAB V create, the 2nd (fuck self destruct no one uses that shit) most powerful move in the game. Contrary allows ho-oh to be a hard hitting and bulky tank, after a couple of boosts being able to stay in on stuff like ates and unboosted scalds. The niche of this set is it is mostly, for the most part able to beat its own imposter 1v1 with substitute and leech seed.

0 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 93-111 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

And you can leech seed or pp stall Imposters out because they can't break your sub
 
The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- V-create
- Superpower

One of the few contrary sets that can self check itself without the help of a teammate. Ho-Oh has access to STAB V create, the 2nd (fuck self destruct no one uses that shit) most powerful move in the game. Contrary allows ho-oh to be a hard hitting and bulky tank, after a couple of boosts being able to stay in on stuff like ates and unboosted scalds. The niche of this set is it is mostly, for the most part able to beat its own imposter 1v1 with substitute and leech seed.

0 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 93-111 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

And you can leech seed or pp stall Imposters out because they can't break your sub
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You're going to be pp stalled out of V-create quite easily. Not to mention you can get haze'd, topsy turvy'd, and there's no guarantee you will get leech seed up before the imposter uses sub. Also Giratina completely walls you.
 
Zeronix said:
You're going to be pp stalled out of V-create quite easily. Not to mention you can get haze'd, topsy turvy'd, and there's no guarantee you will get leech seed up before the imposter uses sub. Also Giratina completely walls you.
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You can haze and topsy turvy any boosters. Also substitute blocks topsy turvy and very few people runs haze. You can also pp stall out v create/superpower mons with giratina. You can leech seed the giratina before it phases you out, and are you implying I need a move to beat giratina? Draco meteor would only take away this set's merit as imposter proof. Your argument applies to all boosters. This is just a contrary set that allows you to beat your own imposter while not being a complete dead weight against any play style since stab v create will still punch holes against enemy teams, and also is a nice soft check to mewtwo and gengar.
 
The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
You can haze and topsy turvy any boosters. Also substitute blocks topsy turvy and very few people runs haze. You can also pp stall out v create/superpower mons with giratina.
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Fair enough, though to me this just proves that contrary boosting isn't that great since you can't break through a very commonly run wall without sacrificing your imposter-proofness. The part about haze being uncommon is subjective, since in my experience Haze is the better move precisely because it has more PP and hits through both substitute and Magic Bounce. But I'll concede that.

The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
This is just a contrary set that allows you to beat your own imposter while not being a complete dead weight against any play style since stab v create will still punch holes against enemy teams, and also is a nice soft check to mewtwo and gengar.
Click to expand...

I have to ask though, what holes will you be punching against Giratina? For one, you can't rely on Leech Seed to beat it since Cursetina is a thing. Even for Fur Coat variants, if you leech seed it, it will just switch out and then back in again to wall you. Also usually has a slow baton-pass so it can keep switching in to sponge all your attacks, and in the meantime you are getting pp stalled out of not just your two attacking moves, but also leech seed. Also, while you can't be imposter'd behind a sub, Imposter Chansey commonly carries skill swap, which means it can easily erase your boosts if it manages to come in safely - this is something that can't be said of contrary MMX since that can KO with unboosted Close Combat.

In general, even if it's true of all contrary sweepers, it doesn't change the fact that many teams carry a good answer to your set. Not saying your set is bad, I can see its potential uses, but you could do with some explanation on how to use it + what team support it needs.
 
Zeronix said:
I have to ask though, what holes will you be punching against Giratina? For one, you can't rely on Leech Seed to beat it since Cursetina is a thing. Even for Fur Coat variants, if you leech seed it, it will just switch out and then back in again to wall you. Also usually has a slow baton-pass so it can keep switching in to sponge all your attacks, and in the meantime you are getting pp stalled out of not just your two attacking moves, but also leech seed. Also, while you can't be imposter'd behind a sub, Imposter Chansey commonly carries skill swap, which means it can easily erase your boosts if it manages to come in safely - this is something that can't be said of contrary MMX since that can KO with unboosted Close Combat.

In general, even if it's true of all contrary sweepers, it doesn't change the fact that many teams carry a good answer to your set. Not saying your set is bad, I can see its potential uses, but you could do with some explanation on how to use it + what team support it needs.
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First of all fur coat chansey does not wall ho-oh.

+1 0 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 241-285 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 0 Atk Ho-Oh Superpower vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 214-254 (33.3 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So with rocks up it can't switch in to v create from +1 ho oh. Without fur coat it gets switches in, takes 1 hit and dies from the next attack

0 Atk Ho-Oh Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 286-338 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Giratinas barely has a way to touch ho oh. Curse and Whirlwind are pretty much the only 2 thing it can do. In both cases you can leech seed the giratina for the next mon that comes it, be it from a hard switch or whirlwind. If the giratina doesn't carry whirlwind or curse you can stall it out with sub and leech seed.

If you are really running contrary mewtwo, that's also walled by giratina. I've shown you that imposter chansey can't switch in to ho-oh, and even if it did, will have a high chance to get 2hkod with prior damage.

252 Atk Mega Mewtwo X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 160-190 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 148-175 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HK

You can clearly see here that ho oh is more powerful than mewtwo. The above calc is uninvested ho-oh and it does about as much as max attack mewtwo. Mewtwo is also vulnerable to burns, while ho oh cannot be burned thanks to its fire typing.
 
The Guy Who Has Many Alts said:
252 Atk Mega Mewtwo X Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 160-190 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 148-175 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can clearly see here that ho oh is more powerful than mewtwo. The above calc is uninvested ho-oh and it does about as much as max attack mewtwo. Mewtwo is also vulnerable to burns, while ho oh cannot be burned thanks to its fire typing.
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Oi, if you're running Max attack mega mewtwo x, at least give it the + nature.
 
CorruptedFlame said:
Oi, if you're running Max attack mega mewtwo x, at least give it the + nature.
Click to expand...

You need Jolly to outspeed a bunch of relevant stuff (Arceus, Latis, Mega Rays, Mega Diancies) there is very little reasons to use adamant unless you are running bulky Contrary Mewtwo in that case there are much better options because mewtwo x has a bad defensive typing and mediocre bulk for a defensive set.

Also I'll stop posting arguments since I don't want to clutter up this thread with arguments
Use the set if you want, if you think it's bad, well, everyone has their own preferences, likes and dislikes so just keep it to yourself
 
So in slightly related news I've been having some fun with a slightly different Ho-oh set...

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Dragon Ascent
- Roost
- Close Combat

This is primarily meant to check opposing special attackers, Mega Gengar and MMY in particular. Ho-oh has pretty good natural special bulk, and Gale Wings gives you a way of outspeeding and KOing these guys without resorting to (extremely predictable) -ate priority. This is especially useful on Ho-oh because pretty much every other Ho-oh seems to be either Contrary or Belly Drum + Unburden, so people tend not to expect Gale wings. The surprise factor is really helpful for netting important KOs.

252+ Atk Ho-Oh Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 288-339 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Ho-Oh: 165-195 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (and switching on a predicted secret sword does even less)
252+ Atk Ho-Oh Dragon Ascent vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 259-306 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

You can also use Sharp Beak or something - it's particularly helpful against MMY, as
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Ho-Oh Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 345-406 (97.7 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
totally gimps it after LO recoil or SR.

Of course, King's Shield is always an issue, but people tend to be wary of using KS against Ho-oh in case of Contrary.

As for the rest of the set, V-create is just for hitting things really hard or for breaking a sub before using priority Dragon Ascent to clean up, Roost is just there because I kind of use Ho-oh as a special tank sometimes and the extra longevity is pretty useful, and Close Combat is really just there for TTar.

Physically defensive Giratina kind of poops on this set but that's okay because 1) I use it to imposter-proof and 2) most people tend not to play that cautiously - they'll usually go for a coverage move which should KO Ho-oh instead, and pay the price.

Really the main draw of this set is surprise, because outside of gimping offense it's not the greatest attacker in the world and those def/spD drops are annoying to deal with. Being able to get rid of fast attackers early on might just be worth it for your team, though.
 
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