on day 1 there were at least 10 broken/uncompetitive mons in the meta (flutter mane, palafin, iron bundle, chi-yu, annihilape, espathra, chien-pao, houndstone, cyclizar, and orthworm—technically last respects and shed tail were the broken elements but they did break the mons—plus a bunch of other shit that never got addressed). on day 1 of home there were 10 (eleki, magearna, zama-c, shifu-r, volc, bax, ghold, gambit, sneasler, valiant). on day 1 of dlc1 there were 11 (bax, firepon, waterpon, moon, bloodmoon, gliscor, sneasler, ghold, gambit, valiant, manaphy). i don't think it's particularly unreasonable in this climate to expect a double-digit number of broken mons every meta shift
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
He doesn’t need to explain. Some people need ways to cope their losses on the Kyurem ban so they are seeking other Pokémon to pick at and get it suspected by the council. It’s gonna be a long few days.
ok I wasn't going to say anything but since you @ ed me, please say something beyond "ha ha ha" if you're going to post 3 times in a row, anyways arch deserves a suspect 100x more than Kyurem did (fine that it happened though and fine with the verdict, glad we looked into it) so I would say no correlation
I am usually pro ban for most things, but I really don't mind Kyurem remaining unbanned. Kyurem has a lot of flaws as is, and it does offer some counterpart against rain and is a great Gliscor check. We have more broken things than Kyurem currently in the meta.
Let's get on with the next suspect ASAP
Let's get on with the next suspect ASAP
We can relate. Arch needs to get checked out. I firmly believe 100% needs to go. Get it out of here.
There's a great sample team atm, It's the weavile + volcarona one. I've never taken much notice of tera dragon outside of checking firepon, but tera dragon volcarona was able to handle rain very well I was super impressed. Paired with dondozo it manages to handle the arch+skewda core.
I want to believe the best for my favorite stapler, but the odds are looking against us rn. Too many top players want this guy gone, including Vert, Mav, AK, Srn, etc. With Kyurem, I expected roughly a 55% ban - DNB ratio, but I think given its SPL performance, the ban - DNB ratio will be closer to 80% for Archie.
That doesn't mean us Arch enjoyers will go down with out a fight though! I will give it my all to save the bridge! After all, bridges are bind us together as a community. We came together for Kyurem, we can do it again for Arch!
#SaveArch
No, but if you want to go nuts, then use tera electric blast.
You forgot Unaware there, it actually is 2HKOd and if it goes Tera Fairy, then its weak to Flash Cannon.
oh yeah lol, ill delete it. Thx for finding it!
The fact that Tera not getting banned singlehandedly derailed this entire generation but we keep trying to plug the leaks and banning individual Pokémon instead of revisiting it has probably been the worst decision we’ve made since release tbh.
No chance to suspect it since then until now and now there's no community support in the surveys, this has been discussed the entire time since the very first suspect
I’ll remember it. Better than Z moves along with megas haha
The metagame has been terrible since day one because of Tera as far as I'm concerned. I won't lie, being able to flip the tables on your counters and forcing your opponent to Tera to make another sweeper on your team a threat is fun but it just makes a lot of pokemon stupidly threatening in my opinion.
Since the Tera suspect has been avoided like the plague and it will probably continue to happen, I will be voting no ban on every suspect. If I'm going to play a metagame that is terrible because of Tera, I'm certainly not going to ban the Pokemon that are problematic because of the mechanic.
Most of the bans that have happened or will happen are because "X is threatening when it tera to X".
If the metagame is going to stay in a degenerate state, I might as well enjoy all the degenerate tactics that comes with it. If you want to fix the problem, fix it at the source.
I'll have fun laddering for the next suspect with Rain + Archaludon and I'll even throw a Healing Wish mon of top of it to make Archaludon even more obnoxious and I will vote no ban.
I would rather face Archaludon rain than H-Samurott hazard stack anyway. At least you can pivot around Archaludon and kind of treat like Annihilape until you force it out with a strong ground/fighting type or force it to Tera. You can't even interact with H-Samurott hazard stack.
On top of that, I believe that the situation is handled poorly gen after gen. Trying to ban every new mon is not realistic anymore since the powercreep is stronger every gen AND the pool of Pokemon gets bigger even with dexxit. We have to accept the fact that we will not be able to cover everything in the teambuilder (especially with Tera) and that you will lose at team previews certain times.
Edit : Just so we're clear, I don't hate everything the council has done and I'm glad they acted on the sleep clause mod (not a fan of the indirect Torkoal nerf though but at least I won't have the sleep 3 turns everytime and lose because of it). I just don't like how Tera has been handled.
Since the Tera suspect has been avoided like the plague and it will probably continue to happen, I will be voting no ban on every suspect. If I'm going to play a metagame that is terrible because of Tera, I'm certainly not going to ban the Pokemon that are problematic because of the mechanic.
Most of the bans that have happened or will happen are because "X is threatening when it tera to X".
If the metagame is going to stay in a degenerate state, I might as well enjoy all the degenerate tactics that comes with it. If you want to fix the problem, fix it at the source.
I'll have fun laddering for the next suspect with Rain + Archaludon and I'll even throw a Healing Wish mon of top of it to make Archaludon even more obnoxious and I will vote no ban.
I would rather face Archaludon rain than H-Samurott hazard stack anyway. At least you can pivot around Archaludon and kind of treat like Annihilape until you force it out with a strong ground/fighting type or force it to Tera. You can't even interact with H-Samurott hazard stack.
On top of that, I believe that the situation is handled poorly gen after gen. Trying to ban every new mon is not realistic anymore since the powercreep is stronger every gen AND the pool of Pokemon gets bigger even with dexxit. We have to accept the fact that we will not be able to cover everything in the teambuilder (especially with Tera) and that you will lose at team previews certain times.
Edit : Just so we're clear, I don't hate everything the council has done and I'm glad they acted on the sleep clause mod (not a fan of the indirect Torkoal nerf though but at least I won't have the sleep 3 turns everytime and lose because of it). I just don't like how Tera has been handled.
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I will say that voting DNB just because Tera is broken and you want that banned instead is a fake vote. You aren't even voting on the suspect and just complaining about Tera. Also there were some bans (and a lot of early ones) that weren't because of Tera. They were especially with Tera, but broken 'mons either way. Bax, Magearna, Urshifu, weren't broken because of Tera. Not that I know of. Volcarona is now OU again and that was definitely Tera. Roaring Moon also enjoyed Tera immensely.
Suspects are looking at the 'Mon itself in the meta game at that time.
Okay, so I have tried using the legendary beasts on teams (seperately, I'm not that much of a masochist), I'll give my thoughts on them, as well as the sets I used.
Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Shadow Ball
This has been the best legendary beast that I have tried so far, it's coverage and stats lend it quite well in the OU metagame. Being an electric type that can hit ground types for super effective damage is amazing, as you can easily predict the switch in, hit a scald and then another to ko them, meaning you can volt switch for free. Aura sphere allows it to deal with archaludon, kyurem and gambit quite well. It can be a powerful offensive threat, and it shined immensly.
Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Scorching Sands
- Crunch
And now we go on to the worst legendary beast. While its speed tier is nice, it's power output is not great without band, which severly restricts its flexibility. Tera normal extreme speed's don't even ohko barra, which do a max of 80%, which is just pathetic. Sacred fire absolutely carries the set, while scorching sands allows you to deal with arch and dondozo better. The last moveslot is mostly free, I chose crunch because dark is a good offensive type all around. It will definetely get better if rain gets worse, but that 115 is not good. If it had something like morning sun, which gouging gets but it doesn't, then it could be better but alas.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Protect
- Mirror Coat
Suicune is alright when used in OU, it is a bulky water type that can deal great damage. I've found that mirror coat is a great move on this mon to destroy some special mons as tera'd it can take a lot and hit back with a ko. The combination of ice + water is great and scald burns can mean some water mons don't want to switch in. Not a bad choice, but it is outclassed by other mons such as primarina.
Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Shadow Ball
This has been the best legendary beast that I have tried so far, it's coverage and stats lend it quite well in the OU metagame. Being an electric type that can hit ground types for super effective damage is amazing, as you can easily predict the switch in, hit a scald and then another to ko them, meaning you can volt switch for free. Aura sphere allows it to deal with archaludon, kyurem and gambit quite well. It can be a powerful offensive threat, and it shined immensly.
Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Scorching Sands
- Crunch
And now we go on to the worst legendary beast. While its speed tier is nice, it's power output is not great without band, which severly restricts its flexibility. Tera normal extreme speed's don't even ohko barra, which do a max of 80%, which is just pathetic. Sacred fire absolutely carries the set, while scorching sands allows you to deal with arch and dondozo better. The last moveslot is mostly free, I chose crunch because dark is a good offensive type all around. It will definetely get better if rain gets worse, but that 115 is not good. If it had something like morning sun, which gouging gets but it doesn't, then it could be better but alas.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Protect
- Mirror Coat
Suicune is alright when used in OU, it is a bulky water type that can deal great damage. I've found that mirror coat is a great move on this mon to destroy some special mons as tera'd it can take a lot and hit back with a ko. The combination of ice + water is great and scald burns can mean some water mons don't want to switch in. Not a bad choice, but it is outclassed by other mons such as primarina.
Just use Band + good Hazard support. Also, it learns Stomping Tantrum as ground move and SE as coverage.
I said most, not every so I don't see why you are using obviously broken Pokemon to answer me ? (I would argue that bax would be fine without Tera but it's not the point).
I don't think a Tera metagame can be salvaged and if we are keeping it I will vote DNB on everything since my mindset will just be to have the most fun with the most pokemons possible.
At the end of the day I'm just playing pokemon for fun and it's not on me to try and make a mess of a metagame bearable when a simple solution could be applied.
If Tera is staying, it's my right to decide if I want to play a terrible metagame with the most pokemon possible or a terrible metagame with the least pokemon possible.
I didn't care about the Kyurem outcome anyway and don't find Archaludon that problematic. At least not as much as other Pokemon or even moves (looking at you, ceaseless edge).
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Band really restricts you, as you want to switch up moves when resists come into sacred fire, which you can't really do with band. Scorching sands in primarily so you can have some use against rain teams, with being able to threaten arch. SE could be a fourth coverage move, so that could be included.
I completely agree
The generation has consistently had issues being consistently healthy, with few exceptions the majority of the controversial mons have either had the following; Broken because of Hazard control being bad, Broken because of tera or broken because of booster energy. The power level of this generation has increased substantially and to prove I'm not just making up things earlier Eveeto listed in their opinion 12 mons that make the metagame worse.
Tera benefits strong mons and makes them arguably unreasonable, in addition if a mon is likely really strong due to proto or quark drive procs then it will also benefit from tera. The power level this generation has gone through the roof and IMO tera is clearly the blame, it takes mons who could be contained and makes them completely unreasonable to wall or it makes them almost impossible to revenge kill reliably without prio, and with booster energy a lot of these mons become instantly threatening.
I'm sure anyone who has played this generation has had games where you guess wrong on a tera and then you just lose and ultimately that is what a lot of games are boiling down to, disregarding a significant part of it into what is simply a guessing game, if we have a large majority of the meta game which is considered too powerful or too strong in a generation with a large amount of bans already I think it is really worth asking if it is the mons who are the problem or if it is the system and meta mechanics.
With booster energy entering the conversation in the last survey with a mention from many people I do not believe it should be ignored, it is an enormously large boost in viability and power to the paradox mons who can benefit from it, alongside however and primarily time and time again tera has come into the conversation. Regarding hazard stack and hazard control in general I think the answer is a lot less clear but I think that road can be crossed later.
So far outside of obviously broken pokemon the vast majority of bans or controversial pokemon have been bolstered by tera. Kyruem was not the pokemon breaking the metagame and I don't believe archaludon is either, now that we are in a stable version of SV I think it would be the ideal time to look into the factors that make the meta, shed tail ban was the best tiering policy made in a very long time and I hope that other meta defining factors are looked into.
Primarily I think it is long overdue for Tera to be looked into as it warps the game. Afterwards if also problematic, I believe that booster energy enabling many pokemon and possibly even hazards in general could be looked into, patching up the meta to preserve tera doesn't make sense to me.
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I will never get how people in this thread view bans vs dnbs
It doesn't really matter if Kyurem is "the most deserving", objectively just banning literally 1 or 2 of the high tier threats, at random, would improve the metagame.
You could literally put them into a random number generator, ban the two it gives and you will always get a better metagame than what we have right now.
The issue is threat saturation. There are too many good offensive threats that require too different of answers. It's kinda just that simple. If you try to find the """best""" to ban, you don't actually get why the tier is problematic.
Every threat gets less oppressive when you don't have to check it + 10 other setup sweepers at the same time, but I guess we will just try to find new reasons to stagnate the tier.
55 - 45, the classic
It doesn't really matter if Kyurem is "the most deserving", objectively just banning literally 1 or 2 of the high tier threats, at random, would improve the metagame.
You could literally put them into a random number generator, ban the two it gives and you will always get a better metagame than what we have right now.
The issue is threat saturation. There are too many good offensive threats that require too different of answers. It's kinda just that simple. If you try to find the """best""" to ban, you don't actually get why the tier is problematic.
Every threat gets less oppressive when you don't have to check it + 10 other setup sweepers at the same time, but I guess we will just try to find new reasons to stagnate the tier.
55 - 45, the classic