I could say similar things about Vullaby but I'll wait until the drops before doing any more nominations.
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Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter etern
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I could say similar things about Vullaby but I'll wait until the drops before doing any more nominations.
I would imagine the problem being that there are minimal scenarios in which I'd consider / recommend Slowpoke over the likes of Miltank, Clefairy, and even Frillish, or any of the other mons erisia mentioned. Both Miltank and Clefairy have Thunder Wave and access to reliable recovery, whereas Miltank has pseudo Fire + Ice resists (while actually resisting Freeze-Dry) via Thick Fat and Clefairy has Magic Guard to compete with Regenerator in terms of providing longevity. Meanwhile, both of those mons boast more diverse support movepools, while Slowpoke is more or less limited to purely statusing its foes. While Frillish trades Thunder Wave for Will-O-Wisp, it does hardwall nearly every Pokemon that Slowpoke does, with the addition of actually stopping Megahorn Samurott and being able to spinblock Hitmonchan, if not temporarily due to Foresight (which still exposes Chan to burns).Slowpoke from Unranked to C-/C
Even disregarding the competition, Slowpoke itself has very noticeable limits. While it fares well enough against Fire-types not named Magmortar (and even then, Pyroar has the potential to overwhelm a burned Slowpoke with a LO Hyper Voice on the switch), it doesn't really handle most Water-types or Fighting-types. The only Water-types it really "deals" with would be Omastar and Barbaracle (and even then, both still outspeed Slowpoke when para'd after +2, so you're not in the clear yet and are still liable to lose a mon); a paralyzed Ludicolo can still take advantage of Slowpoke, while Megahorn / Taunt Samurott and the (rarer) Taunt Floatzel can circumvent Slowpoke. Meanwhile, you mentioned that Slowpoke can beat TPunch-less Hitmonchan. You did not mention that is pretty much the only variant of premier Fighting-type that Slowpoke handles, because Slowpoke straight up loses to any Knock Off (Hariyama cleanly 2HKOes, while any others can just boost), and Primeape can hop around with U-turn and have teammates easily take advantage of it.
Appreciate the innovative effort, but Slowpoke just seems like a mon that is doing too much role compression of existing viable mons.
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Mantine is absolute cancer for Water types, and now that Poliwrath and Floatzel have been becoming more common, this allows Mantine to shine even brighter. It sets itself apart from Pelipper due to being a wall in both Defense and Sp. Defense as opposed to Pelipper being more of a Defense wall. It's also one of the few defensive Defoggers in the tier, the only other defensive defoggers that are viable in NU are Pelipper, Skuntank and Vullaby, and Vullaby is not exceptionally good in the tier. Mantine is also really hard to switch into, having access to both Scald and Toxic, and the only other Pokemon in the tier that can do that well is Quagsire. It also synergies amazingly with Physical Walls, and which are also really common and really good in NU right now. I think B+ is a good place for it.
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Anything that makes it better than Pelipper, who is (rightfully, if you ask me) ranked at B too?to B+
Mantine is absolute cancer for Water types, and now that Poliwrath and Floatzel have been becoming more common, this allows Mantine to shine even brighter. It sets itself apart from Pelipper due to being a wall in both Defense and Sp. Defense as opposed to Pelipper being more of a Defense wall. It's also one of the few defensive Defoggers in the tier, the only other defensive defoggers that are viable in NU are Pelipper and Vullaby, and Vullaby is not exceptionally good in the tier. Mantine is also really hard to switch into, having access to both Scald and Toxic, and the only other Pokemon in the tier that can do that well is Quagsire. It also synergies amazingly with Physical Walls, and which are also really common and really good in NU right now. I think B+ is a good place for it.
Anything you list Mantine does, Pelipper is able to do too. He sports Scald and Toxic (which a lot of pokemon are capable of doing, by the way. Just from the top of my head: Lanturn, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Samurott, Omastar, Poliwrath), he's a defensive Defogger (which aren't all that uncommon, they're just not being used. Both Xatu and Skuntank can be run purely defensive, both can learn Defog. I can understand not including bulky Scyther/Zard builds in that list, because 4x weakness to SR sucks for a defogger, but Xatu and Skuntank definitely deserve a mention), and he can run specially defensive equally well as Mantine can run physically defensive, as both sport a meager base 70 in those respective stats, while only having a HP difference of 10.
The only thing I can really see that Mantine does better is switch into water attacks, but I don't think that's big enough to seperate him from Pelipper. Both are correctly ranked in B at the moment in my opinion.
Not to be pedantic, but while Xatu can learn Defog it's illegal with Magic Bounce.
I personally think Mega Audino and Samurott should both be bumped up to S Rank. Mega Audino is insanely bulky, easily the best Wish passer in the tier and can run multiple sets, from wall to bulky booster and even special wallbreaker. Samurott's ability to run both a great physical and a great special set set it apart from Kabutops - it's also bulkier, and has arguably better defensive typing.
I personally think Mega Audino and Samurott should both be bumped up to S Rank. Mega Audino is insanely bulky, easily the best Wish passer in the tier and can run multiple sets, from wall to bulky booster and even special wallbreaker. Samurott's ability to run both a great physical and a great special set set it apart from Kabutops - it's also bulkier, and has arguably better defensive typing.
I don't want to restate what I said previously, but I would like to push Mega Audino to S again. I mean it is one of the most dangerous setup sweepers in the tier, and it can basically deal with its checks and counters with the appropriate coverage move. The rise of Dark-types like Shiftry and Malamar really help Mega Audino act as a great sponge on balance teams (especially since it does not fear to get Knocked Off). Since the tier became a bit more orientated towards bulky offense and balance after two major wallbreakers left, Mega Dino is truly able to shine and is a true meta defining threat.
No opinions on Samurott.
No opinions on Samurott.
I would agree with the Slowpoke nomination if this was 5th gen. I used it then and it was reasonably effective. However the Knock Off buff was really the nail in the coffin as it can no longer check Fighting-types (besides, Gurdurr left the tier which was one of the main things Slowpoke could handle well). Knock Off is so common and Slowpoke is extremely weak to it, even more so because it relies heavily on its Eviolite to wall the mons it does. There's little reason to use it over other bulky waters like Quagsire mainly.
I also disagree with Mega Audino to S. It's not a good WishPasser okay. A good WishPasser doesn't need to constantly receive its own Wishes because it gets worn down so fast. Even just SR makes your Mega Audino a lot less bulky, because you lack Lefties. It also has 4MSS as you want Wish/Protect/Toxic/Heal Bell/Knock Off/Dazzling Gleam. What it comes down to really is lack of Lefties and useful resistances that really impair Audino's ability to do its job: to be a wall and WishPasser/Cleric. Most Dark and Bug-types have secondary STABS or coverage to work with anyways; Scyther 3HKO's with Aerial Ace, Skuntank has Poison Jab, Liepard has Gunk Shot, Shiftry has Leaf Storm to do 50% after SR and force you to Wish etc.
The CroDino set is a lot better, but struggles with physical attackers that can 3HKO it which there are plenty. I'd much rather vote Malamar for S for it's RestTalk set as it gets a lot more threatening much more quickly. Overall I don't think Mega Audino is S material, it's just too passive and not really a good support mon due to many flaws.
I also disagree with Mega Audino to S. It's not a good WishPasser okay. A good WishPasser doesn't need to constantly receive its own Wishes because it gets worn down so fast. Even just SR makes your Mega Audino a lot less bulky, because you lack Lefties. It also has 4MSS as you want Wish/Protect/Toxic/Heal Bell/Knock Off/Dazzling Gleam. What it comes down to really is lack of Lefties and useful resistances that really impair Audino's ability to do its job: to be a wall and WishPasser/Cleric. Most Dark and Bug-types have secondary STABS or coverage to work with anyways; Scyther 3HKO's with Aerial Ace, Skuntank has Poison Jab, Liepard has Gunk Shot, Shiftry has Leaf Storm to do 50% after SR and force you to Wish etc.
The CroDino set is a lot better, but struggles with physical attackers that can 3HKO it which there are plenty. I'd much rather vote Malamar for S for it's RestTalk set as it gets a lot more threatening much more quickly. Overall I don't think Mega Audino is S material, it's just too passive and not really a good support mon due to many flaws.
Yeah, Mega Audino definitely doesn't fit in S-Rank, like at all. It's a really good Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but ~Eternally hit the nail on the head with his post, and I completely agree with it.
Anyways, I was really surprised that I saw this Mon in A, as I definitely don't think it should be..;
A_ -> A+
Archeops is dominating once again, just like before Sceptile entered the tier. It's insanely strong, doesn't actually have surefire counters tbh. CB, itemless Acrobatics, or even Life Orb are all amazing sets, and they all deal with different checks in different ways. Its speed tier is awesome once again, as the only two things that outrun it are Floatzel (pretty annoying) and Swellow, which doesn't kill it, not even with rocks up. It can u-turn out on Steelix or Heat Wave/Earth Power it, and the same goes for Regirock and Rhydon. all are easily exploitable by U-turning into say a Lilligant or Floatzel and grabbing momentum. We all know what kind of insane Wallbreaker Archeops really is, as it's been stated before in the VR, and I really think it deserves A+.
Anyways, I was really surprised that I saw this Mon in A, as I definitely don't think it should be..;
Archeops is dominating once again, just like before Sceptile entered the tier. It's insanely strong, doesn't actually have surefire counters tbh. CB, itemless Acrobatics, or even Life Orb are all amazing sets, and they all deal with different checks in different ways. Its speed tier is awesome once again, as the only two things that outrun it are Floatzel (pretty annoying) and Swellow, which doesn't kill it, not even with rocks up. It can u-turn out on Steelix or Heat Wave/Earth Power it, and the same goes for Regirock and Rhydon. all are easily exploitable by U-turning into say a Lilligant or Floatzel and grabbing momentum. We all know what kind of insane Wallbreaker Archeops really is, as it's been stated before in the VR, and I really think it deserves A+.
Well it's been nearly a week, and I feel like I've enough experience to offer some input on this.
start at B+
Look, we can't deny the obscene power of spammable Head Smash, which 2HKOes all but the bulkiest of Rock resists at worst. It's also augmented by Heavy Slam and Superpower to beat down most of what can take its Head Smash. Moreover, Aggron can take advantage of two of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, Musharna and Mega Audino, while maintaining tremendous offensive pressure, unlike say, Skuntank or Steelix.
However, the biggest problem I have with Aggron atm is that putting it on your team automatically compromises your defensive ability. It occupies the Rock and Steel slot at once, but its 4x weakness to Fighting and Ground makes it completely unable to check the likes of Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Archeops. Meanwhile, its poor special bulk not only renders it incapable of taking advantage of its Ice resist, it also makes its matchup against offense pretty damn poor, and it rarely gets opportunities to fire off Head Smashes very freely. NU is not unfamiliar to powerful Rock attacks either; the tier has always been known to have more physical walls than special walls, and there are a decent amount of Rock-resistant Pokemon that can deter Aggron's Head Smash rampage, such as Gastrodon, Steelix, Rhydon, Poliwrath, Torterra, Ferroseed. The majority of those Pokemon can take Heavy Slam as well, which is really unfortunate because any time Aggron is discouraged from spamming its powerful dual STABs can really reduces its impact in battle as it risks being pivoted around, and its poor Speed, low special bulk, and numerous weaknesses don't give it many attacking opportunities to begin with.
The part about 'NU having more physical walls than special walls' and 'Aggron's STABs not being as spammable as it would like' brings me to my more surprising point: I actually find Aggron to be a bit outperformed by Aurorus right now. Why this comparison you ask, when the two are leagues apart in power? Well for starters, Aurorus can take advantage of and break most of the Pokemon Aggron can (it can use Frost Breath to beat CM Mush and MAudino, and even has built-in anti-Musharna qualities due to Snow Warning nerfing Moonlight), and its more well-rounded bulk prevents it from getting crippled as badly by the likes of SpA Skuntank and offensive Mega Audino, which Aggron has to tread much more carefully around. While Aurorus's Ice attacks are not as powerful as Aggron's Head Smash, they are a lot more spammable and have greater neutral coverage as well, making Aurorus a lot harder to wall, whereas Aggron can be hardwalled by several Pokemon depending on its moveset (Gastrodon walls it to hell and back regardless, unless you decide to go insane with Power Herb SolarBeam). Rhydon is always an alternative physical Rock-type attacker too, as it has Swords Dance, makes use of Rock Polish better, and is a competent Normal / Flying check.
Aggron is still a really powerful mon with extremely strong dual STABs, and even has Magnet Rise + SubPunch to help work around some of its counters / checks and disrupt defensive cores a bit, but I really cannot envision Aggron above, or even in the same rank as Aurorus right now.
B- to C+
This feels like a damn shame considering it just moved up, but Mawile has lost part of its status as one of the tier's primary immediate Steel-type attackers. Of course, it's still a great Fairy-type attacker, but Aggron doesn't just offer competition, it also presents itself as a newfound check against Mawile. The bigger reason I'm nominating this to drop back down to C+ is that it shares many, if not all of the same flaws as Aggron does, and since people would be on the lookout for Aggron and be more conscious about running checks / counters for it, Mawile's flaws would subsequently be more highlighted as well. With that said, I'm not keen on dropping this any lower in the meantime, since it can still do things that Aggron cannot, namely Fairy STAB, priority, and Swords Dance, but it can't really use all of its offensive tools at its disposal to even consistently one-up Aggron (+2 Play Rough can brutalize Gastrodon, but it still wants Fire Blast to smack Steels).
Look, we can't deny the obscene power of spammable Head Smash, which 2HKOes all but the bulkiest of Rock resists at worst. It's also augmented by Heavy Slam and Superpower to beat down most of what can take its Head Smash. Moreover, Aggron can take advantage of two of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, Musharna and Mega Audino, while maintaining tremendous offensive pressure, unlike say, Skuntank or Steelix.
However, the biggest problem I have with Aggron atm is that putting it on your team automatically compromises your defensive ability. It occupies the Rock and Steel slot at once, but its 4x weakness to Fighting and Ground makes it completely unable to check the likes of Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Archeops. Meanwhile, its poor special bulk not only renders it incapable of taking advantage of its Ice resist, it also makes its matchup against offense pretty damn poor, and it rarely gets opportunities to fire off Head Smashes very freely. NU is not unfamiliar to powerful Rock attacks either; the tier has always been known to have more physical walls than special walls, and there are a decent amount of Rock-resistant Pokemon that can deter Aggron's Head Smash rampage, such as Gastrodon, Steelix, Rhydon, Poliwrath, Torterra, Ferroseed. The majority of those Pokemon can take Heavy Slam as well, which is really unfortunate because any time Aggron is discouraged from spamming its powerful dual STABs can really reduces its impact in battle as it risks being pivoted around, and its poor Speed, low special bulk, and numerous weaknesses don't give it many attacking opportunities to begin with.
The part about 'NU having more physical walls than special walls' and 'Aggron's STABs not being as spammable as it would like' brings me to my more surprising point: I actually find Aggron to be a bit outperformed by Aurorus right now. Why this comparison you ask, when the two are leagues apart in power? Well for starters, Aurorus can take advantage of and break most of the Pokemon Aggron can (it can use Frost Breath to beat CM Mush and MAudino, and even has built-in anti-Musharna qualities due to Snow Warning nerfing Moonlight), and its more well-rounded bulk prevents it from getting crippled as badly by the likes of SpA Skuntank and offensive Mega Audino, which Aggron has to tread much more carefully around. While Aurorus's Ice attacks are not as powerful as Aggron's Head Smash, they are a lot more spammable and have greater neutral coverage as well, making Aurorus a lot harder to wall, whereas Aggron can be hardwalled by several Pokemon depending on its moveset (Gastrodon walls it to hell and back regardless, unless you decide to go insane with Power Herb SolarBeam). Rhydon is always an alternative physical Rock-type attacker too, as it has Swords Dance, makes use of Rock Polish better, and is a competent Normal / Flying check.
Aggron is still a really powerful mon with extremely strong dual STABs, and even has Magnet Rise + SubPunch to help work around some of its counters / checks and disrupt defensive cores a bit, but I really cannot envision Aggron above, or even in the same rank as Aurorus right now.
This feels like a damn shame considering it just moved up, but Mawile has lost part of its status as one of the tier's primary immediate Steel-type attackers. Of course, it's still a great Fairy-type attacker, but Aggron doesn't just offer competition, it also presents itself as a newfound check against Mawile. The bigger reason I'm nominating this to drop back down to C+ is that it shares many, if not all of the same flaws as Aggron does, and since people would be on the lookout for Aggron and be more conscious about running checks / counters for it, Mawile's flaws would subsequently be more highlighted as well. With that said, I'm not keen on dropping this any lower in the meantime, since it can still do things that Aggron cannot, namely Fairy STAB, priority, and Swords Dance, but it can't really use all of its offensive tools at its disposal to even consistently one-up Aggron (+2 Play Rough can brutalize Gastrodon, but it still wants Fire Blast to smack Steels).
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Samurott > S Rank
While I don't have too much to add to the conversation, I do believe Samurott's already immense splashability and versatility is boosted even more now that a very solid check to its SD set (Quagsire) recently got the boot. It really is an amazing Pokemon in the tier already, and this just lets it use one of its best sets more reliably, with much less fear of something forcing it out after setting up. It also has great special and mixed attack power, STAB Aqua Jet, and unlike Kabutops can actually do something to bulky Grass types.
I don't claim to be the most experienced or the smartest NU player though, so feel free to shoot down my argument.
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On the subject of Quagsire no longer checking stuff, I'm curious as to people's opinions on Malamar's viability. I don't have much experience with it so I won't make a comment on potential nomination, but I believe it might be worth a look for those with more experience.
While I don't have too much to add to the conversation, I do believe Samurott's already immense splashability and versatility is boosted even more now that a very solid check to its SD set (Quagsire) recently got the boot. It really is an amazing Pokemon in the tier already, and this just lets it use one of its best sets more reliably, with much less fear of something forcing it out after setting up. It also has great special and mixed attack power, STAB Aqua Jet, and unlike Kabutops can actually do something to bulky Grass types.
I don't claim to be the most experienced or the smartest NU player though, so feel free to shoot down my argument.
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On the subject of Quagsire no longer checking stuff, I'm curious as to people's opinions on Malamar's viability. I don't have much experience with it so I won't make a comment on potential nomination, but I believe it might be worth a look for those with more experience.
May as well make this post, as Malamar is very good right now, and deserves a fair bit better than an A- ranking. It lost one of its main defensive counters, and in return, it can fairly easily set up on 2 out of the 3 new drops, while threatening aggron with heavy damage thanks to superpower. Additionally, it makes sticky webs a straight up liability. All of this, while still retaining its competence as a sweeper, and its ability absorb most status. It even works very well with aggron, who can take on most of its remaining defensive, and offensive, checks with ease, and just generally break holes that our wonderful squid is able to abuse to beat a team.
A- => A_ or A+
A- => A_ or A+
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Now that the meta is starting to settle I think that I am ready to make this nom. With drops like Smeargle and the rise of speed, cm, or w/e pass I think that Murkrow finds a niche for itself with its utility. Prankster is a godly ability for utility and Murkrow makes good use of it with its good selection of support moves. Not only that but Murkrow has usable offensive stats sitting at 85/85/91. Eviolite also makes Murkrow's poor defenses much more reliable. Now, where Murkorw finds its niche is its ability to shut down stat passing strategies. With Haze and Prankster Murkrow can set everything back to 0. The great thing about this is that it ignores sub and isn't bounceable. Murkrow also has access to Psych Up. This allows Murkrow to copy stat changes which means that you can set yourself up for a sweep if you can beat the opponents Pokemon. With moves like Heat Wave, Dark Pulse, Brave Bird, and Sucker Punch under its belt it can make great use of boosts.
I don't think malamar has got any better tbh. Sure quag is gone, but only stall run that and we still have the same usual checks like colbur signal mons, gourgeist and scyther. It's just become something people think about more now because we lost a counter that only works on one archetype (still have clef and mega dino).
The hype will die down soon enough so it shouldn't move
The hype will die down soon enough so it shouldn't move
I think he's gotten a bit better with the new drops. Gastrodon replaces Quagsire in pretty much 100% of the cases and Gastro is quite a bit weaker against Malamar. Malamar LOVES sticky web from Smeargle and he simply superpowers Aggron. Signal Colbur Psychics are still alright, but some of them still lose the 1v1 after a boost or two. I personally think Malamar is definitely worthy of A+
I disagree. Just because Malamar gets more 'free switchins' to fire off a superpower or knock off doesn't make the counterplay any different from what we've been doing. I don't think making the Gastrodon and Quagsire are interchangable argument is a good one either, because they're simply not. The only situation I'd consider them close to similar is comparing a CB Quag set and Specs Gastrodon becuase they function in similar ways despite hitting on opposite sides of the spectrum. I'd also note that Sticky Web still isn't good even with the addition of Smeargle and if anything people are more prepared for it.
Gastrodon and Quagsire really aren't as similar as you are suggesting. Quagsire's main niche was a catch all to physical set up sweepers (and a few special ones) with Unaware. Gastrodon really can't hope to pull Quagsire's job off. Also, you're downplaying the ability of Colbur Psychics to beat Malamar. Provided they keep their Colbur intact, they can all take that +2 Knock Off and blow him up in return. Even if you didn't have your Colbur, one Signal Beam does more than enough to cripple Malamar. I am going to agree with Queen here, Malamar hasn't really gotten that much better. It still suffers from the same problems it has always experienced, just minus one.
there is one reason that ive always had against ranking malamar higher than what it is right now, and its because its the definition of a coinlip pick in teambuilder.
most teams in nu are either prepared for malamar or they dont have much counter play to it at all. against a team w/ strong offensive mons malamar is going to find a tough time setting up do to its low defense stat and will most likely just be death fodder for that game. against balance its more of a coinflip as they might have something like sd samurott / scyther that invalidates malamar in that match up as well and forces you to get maybe 1/2 hits off before being easily revenge killed. its best match up is against fatter balance and teams that are weak to malamar and just say "let me just keep signal beam on ____, i bet that will work".
i agree that malamar can be completely deadly in certain battles and 6-0 from team preview, but then there are match ups where its dead weight and because of that it shouldn't move higher than a- which is high enough already.
most teams in nu are either prepared for malamar or they dont have much counter play to it at all. against a team w/ strong offensive mons malamar is going to find a tough time setting up do to its low defense stat and will most likely just be death fodder for that game. against balance its more of a coinflip as they might have something like sd samurott / scyther that invalidates malamar in that match up as well and forces you to get maybe 1/2 hits off before being easily revenge killed. its best match up is against fatter balance and teams that are weak to malamar and just say "let me just keep signal beam on ____, i bet that will work".
i agree that malamar can be completely deadly in certain battles and 6-0 from team preview, but then there are match ups where its dead weight and because of that it shouldn't move higher than a- which is high enough already.
A tier shift gives us mons that Malamar can beat does not mean it has gotten better. When a Pokemon gets better it is because either something is decreasing in usage and popularity or the metagame gives it more wiggle room. If Psychics no longer run Colbur + Signal Beam that would be a good shift towards it. Sure it can click Superpower and most things and get away with it, Malamar doesn't have very much potential early game since it NEEDS it checks / counters to be broken down. The most Malamar can do is scare something out because your opponent doesn't want to deal with it for the time being. Keep it in A-
I'm going to go and say that Gastrodon should start off at A- Rank. Gastrodon is a really nice mon for a lot of reasons. First of all, it's typing and ability in Storm Drain lets it check a lot of threats in the metagame, such as Lanturn, Kabutops, and the newcomer Aggron. It also has reliable recovery, which lets it stick around for a while and be a better check to the thing it checks. This makes Gastrodon an excellent choice for balanced and stall teams that have trouble with powerful wallbreakers like Aggron and appreciate Gastrodon checking stuff like it. The reason why I'm saying A- for now is that while Gastrodon has a lot of utility in the things it checks, it doesn't really provide all that much utility outside of being a wall due to not getting Stealth Rock, which forces the team to run another Stealth Rock setter due to Gastrodon not providing that move. It also has a nasty weakness to Grass moves, which makes it set-up bait for stuff like Lilligant due to it being forced out. Gastrodon does have some other sets besides the defensive set like a Curse set (Really nice bulky wincon) and an offensive set that's actually pretty hard to switch into at times, but I'm just addressing the defensive set here because it's the most popular set for Gastro rn, and probably will be the most popular to come. Overall, Gastrodon is a really nice mon due to checking a lot of threats and having reliable recovery, but it's lesser utility compared to other defensive mons and the weakness to Grass moves and the fact that it can be a momentum killer at times does give it some flaws, but I think A- is a good starting rank for it due to how it checks a lot of threats right now.
I disagree with ranking Gastrodon that high. When I suggested Quagsire to rise everyone disagreed, and Quagsire was considerably better than Gastrodon as in being able to wall more top tier threats such as Tauros and Kangaskhan. Also Unaware being a much more useful ability. If Quag was only worthy of B, then Gastrodon should be the same rank or even B-. Gastrodons special bulk doesn't even really help it reliably wall mons you'd expect it to such as Magmortar, Pyroar, Electivire or Manectric as all of those commonly carry HP Grass for Rhydon. Yes, it can switch in on non-CB Aggron but there's other mons that can do so while packing SR, like Steelix, Rhydon or Sandslash.
tl:dr run Palpitoad instead.
tl:dr run Palpitoad instead.
I strongly disagree with this post, to start with you cant compare quagsire with gastrodon since they have diferent roles. One is able to check pyshical sweepers and the other one has a lot of roles: being able to stop lanturn completely which is huge on a meta that is filled with that mon (and is also a pain to face) and checking a great portion of the meta like steelix, rotom, mesprit, and samurott which is pretty huge. I've been playing a lot lately with gastrodon and it has a lot of great niches, like being able to lure bulky grass mons with ice beam and sludge wave, and also can be a late wincon with the curse set (I havent used this set much but it looks pretty good). Yes it might fear hp grass from some random mons like magmortar or electivire but its a pretty good mon with a lot of niches that make it A- rank worthy.
Pretty much sniped by Allstar, but yeah, Gastrodon and Quagsire share the same typing and common moves, but they are still different. They have (had, in Quagsire's case. It's gone now so comparing it with relevant Pokemon would be nice :x) different roles and fit on different types of teams. Quagsire was very predictable and plain, it always run the same set, aside from maybe Encore or the uncommon CB + Water Absorb. Gastrodon has better coverage options, and Storm Drain which lets it actually beat Floatzel and Samu lacking grass moves (HP Grass and Grass Knot, respectively). Ditto'ing what Allstar said, the Curse-set can be really annoying to face, when said checks to it are gone.
uh.. I dont know if you are being serious but no.