Don't worry about it. You'll figure out how stuff works around here soon enough. :)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Hi guys, i didn't get the time to post the last few weeks. But here i am and i will talk about Tangrowth which is my favorite one that turn.
First of all, that new double tye doesn't solve the main problems Tangrowth have that gen : Very common flying attack and annoying fire and ice weaknesses. However that buff will increase its efficiency by an other way, as many people already noticed, it gives it a few more usefull resistance to counter/check a larger pool of pokemon.
When i had that idea, i had in mind make it a substitute for mega Venusaur without taking a mega slot, but, actually Tangrowth is quite different from Mega Venusaur :
First of all, that new double tye doesn't solve the main problems Tangrowth have that gen : Very common flying attack and annoying fire and ice weaknesses. However that buff will increase its efficiency by an other way, as many people already noticed, it gives it a few more usefull resistance to counter/check a larger pool of pokemon.
When i had that idea, i had in mind make it a substitute for mega Venusaur without taking a mega slot, but, actually Tangrowth is quite different from Mega Venusaur :
- It doesn't need synthetis/leech seed/giga drain to be effective that allows 2/3 slots available for other moves like knock off, earthquake, HP fire ...
- It can recover easier than Venusaur from SR damage as it can simply come and leave without taking some time for leech seed or synthetis
- It has two very different set : AV mixed bulk, and the classic physical wall.
Every defensive Grass type is inherently set up bait for the myriad of set up sweepers in the meta, and for it to be viable, it needs to overcome that problem. Every defensive grass type that is currently ranked above C+ has good mixed bulk without becoming set-up bait for the opponent. Essentially, said sweepers have to attack without setting up on these Grass types, which makes them much easier to handle.
Venusaur has Thick Fat which allows it to defeat Charizard X (it can take a +1 Flare Blitz and retaliate with EQ), and TTar one-on-one , and can opt to run Sleep Powder for other sweepers;
Ferrothorn has Thunder Wave, which explains itself;
Amoonguss has Spore and Clear Smog to hinder any sweepers that try to set up on it, or Foul Play to deal a number after putting something to sleep.
Tangrowth, even with a Poison secondary type, doesn't overcome the biggest inherent problem of a defensive Grass type, which of being set up for practically every threatening Pokemon that can run through a team single-handedly given time to set up. If it opts out of AV, practically any decently powered special attack shits all over a 252/252+/4 set, while 252/4/252+ set finds it with tough competition for a slot with Amoonguss in general, who has arguably superior moves. Tangrowth does have superior offense and coverage, but it doesn't particularly matter because it fails to 2HKO everything that it needs to. Tangrowth has failed where other defensive Grass types have succeeded, and it is not the typing that is the problem.
That being said, Tangrowth definitely needs a buff, but a Poison secondary typing doesn't seem to be one in the right direction.
Venusaur has Thick Fat which allows it to defeat Charizard X (it can take a +1 Flare Blitz and retaliate with EQ), and TTar one-on-one , and can opt to run Sleep Powder for other sweepers;
Ferrothorn has Thunder Wave, which explains itself;
Amoonguss has Spore and Clear Smog to hinder any sweepers that try to set up on it, or Foul Play to deal a number after putting something to sleep.
Tangrowth, even with a Poison secondary type, doesn't overcome the biggest inherent problem of a defensive Grass type, which of being set up for practically every threatening Pokemon that can run through a team single-handedly given time to set up. If it opts out of AV, practically any decently powered special attack shits all over a 252/252+/4 set, while 252/4/252+ set finds it with tough competition for a slot with Amoonguss in general, who has arguably superior moves. Tangrowth does have superior offense and coverage, but it doesn't particularly matter because it fails to 2HKO everything that it needs to. Tangrowth has failed where other defensive Grass types have succeeded, and it is not the typing that is the problem.
That being said, Tangrowth definitely needs a buff, but a Poison secondary typing doesn't seem to be one in the right direction.
Last edited:
Tangrowth has pretty decent defnse combined with reliable recovery. I agree that it certainly needs a buff with which it can become more effective. the problem would be deciding what moves, and type would fit it best. While poison may not be in the right direction, no other secondary type fits it as well as poison imo.
Tangrowth really wants a retupe as it's bough. It already has a great ability that fits it well, and a movepool change won't fixe grass's problems. Especially since regenerator doesn't really guide one to other movepool additions.
Then when picking a second type you have to look at its movepool (assuming you want a second STAB). From there the viable options are:
Ground (Earthquake)
Dark (Knock Off)
Fighting (Focus Blast, Brick Break)
Rock (Slide)
Normal
Poison (Bomb, Jab)
Of these--
Ground / Grass kinda sux both offensively and defensively.
Dark is pretty sweet on the offensive, but not so on def (4x weak to u-turn...) Dark is better for SpDef behemoths.
Fighting has proven utility offensively (Breloom) and does negate U-turn weak. It could make for a really good bisharp and TTar check as well. Adding Rock resist and keeping ground resist are nice as well. It also brings almost no knew weaknesses-- but a new weak to fairy means Azum and Mawile now stomp you. Beyond Rock and dark, brings little in the way of useful resists. STAB fighting attacks are not a deterrent to many sweepers.
Grass Rock is pretty cool offensively and defensively, but slide is weak as hell and this makes zero sense flavorwise.
Normal is... Normal...
Poison has all the cool advantages we've been talking about so far. Good attacks, bug neutral, fighting resist, no new weaknesses.
Fight is the only one that comes close.
Poison Growth might not be that unique, but the other theorymons don't excite me much either honestly...
Then when picking a second type you have to look at its movepool (assuming you want a second STAB). From there the viable options are:
Ground (Earthquake)
Dark (Knock Off)
Fighting (Focus Blast, Brick Break)
Rock (Slide)
Normal
Poison (Bomb, Jab)
Of these--
Ground / Grass kinda sux both offensively and defensively.
Dark is pretty sweet on the offensive, but not so on def (4x weak to u-turn...) Dark is better for SpDef behemoths.
Fighting has proven utility offensively (Breloom) and does negate U-turn weak. It could make for a really good bisharp and TTar check as well. Adding Rock resist and keeping ground resist are nice as well. It also brings almost no knew weaknesses-- but a new weak to fairy means Azum and Mawile now stomp you. Beyond Rock and dark, brings little in the way of useful resists. STAB fighting attacks are not a deterrent to many sweepers.
Grass Rock is pretty cool offensively and defensively, but slide is weak as hell and this makes zero sense flavorwise.
Normal is... Normal...
Poison has all the cool advantages we've been talking about so far. Good attacks, bug neutral, fighting resist, no new weaknesses.
Fight is the only one that comes close.
Poison Growth might not be that unique, but the other theorymons don't excite me much either honestly...
Charizard-X can 2HKO with Dragon Claw at +1 and only do about 45-50% back with Earthquake. It is not a counter and it definitely doesn't want to risk switching into a potential Charizard-Y. Tangrowth gets Sleep Powder too, so it is not total set up bait. Mega Venusaur also can't beat Mega TTar because it 2HKO's with +1 Crunch. Tangrowth has about a 75% chance of avoiding the 2HKO from +1 Ice Punch, so it is actually a better answer to Mega TTar.
As for being set up bait, relying on Foul Play as your only means of dealing damage is an easy way to become set up. Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Mega TTar, and many other offensive threats don't give a shit about unstabbed Foul Play. At least Tangrowth has the coverage to prevent these threats from just coming in for free. The only reason Amoongus is currently ranked higher than Tangrowth is because of the better defensive typing. Tangrowth is better otherwise.
Tangrowth is obviously not perfect with the improved defensive typing, and it is still weak against Fire and Flying types. But you have 5 of Pokemon on your team to deal with those threats. The purpose of the Poison typing is to patch up some of the flaws which make it currently C rank. It is a similar buff to Volt Absorb Jellicent which can now take on Electric types better, but is still destroyed by Ghost and Dark types.
Venusaur's Sludge Bomb deals 44.2 - 52.3% with 2 turns of 30% to Poison since Charizard X needs 3 turns to even KO Venusaur; Charizard definitely doesn't want to take that chance; besides, Venusaur's best set runs 252/240+/0 which avoids the 2HKO from +1 Dragon Claw. Tangrowth is on the otherhand outright 2HKOed (if 252/252+/4) or OHKOed (if 252/4/252+). Tyranitar at +1 2HKOs all Tangrowth without Leftovers because Sand Stream, just like Venusaur.
Bisharp, Mega Maw, Mega TTar etc don't care about Foul Play, but they care about Spore or Clear Smog and they definitely want to attack outright rather than set up. Tangrowth does have better coverage options, but the damage they hit, even when SE, is honestly not much, and it can easily give said threats a chance to set up.
Sure Poison adds some physically oriented resistances, but the only threats that it can deal with now that it cannot deal with previously are is limited to Azumarill; everything else like are either already walled without the retype (like Terrakion, Keldeo), or still beat it even with the retype (like every other former counter).
Unfortunately, unlike any other Grass type in OU, Tangrowth does not have sufficient special bulk to make use of its myriad of specially oriented resistances, where even some resisted attacks can 2HKO it if it goes pure physical defensive; or it loses its impressive physical bulk and important support skills if it goes for AV. Tangrowth is much less versatile than any other Grass types, because the presence or lack of Leftovers uncover the whole set for you. i.e. Leftovers means it is likely to have Sleep Powder, so it doesn't have one of EQ or Knock Off, and every special attacker is going to cause it quite a load of trouble; no Leftovers means it is likely to carry AV, which carries 2 out of EQ, Rock Slide, Knock Off, and more importantly no Sleep Powder, which means every other set-up sweeper can come in on it for free. Every other good Grass type is much harder to play around because you literally has to see all 4 moves to know what they are so you can't simply come up with a counter by just after turn 1.
I'm not going to question whether the retype makes it better, because it certainly does (as does ever other theorymon that is slated), but the question at hand is whether it make it more useful, and it doesn't seem to be the case.
Last edited:
Bisharp and Mega Mawile don't give a flying Muk about Clear Smog because they're Steel-types, and thus are unaffected by it.
They care more about Spore than they care about an unboosted unSTABed EQ from uninvested base 100 Atk from Tangrowth.
You mean Sleep Powder, right?
Tangrowth has Sleep Powder. It is not as accurate as Spore, but at least Tangrowth can do something after it puts its foe to sleep unlike Amoongus.
I mean they care about Spore from Amoonguss more than they care about any attack from Tangrowth.
Giving Tangrowth Sleep Powder alone is a huge compromise because it practically gives up most of its special bulk to do so, whereas if it wants special bulk it loses Sleep Powder by virtue of AV. It simply isn't as versatile as any other OU Grass type, because the opponent can know the whole set seeing the item, and in so doing conclude what can set up on it, what forces it out, what KOs it etc. in a single turn. It is simply not as worth using as other OU Grass types in general because if it doesn't become an asset, it becomes a huge burden, unlike every other OU viable Grass type, who has a middle ground to be in.
Last edited:
Ah, I must've misread that. My bad.
I don't know why you keep talking about Tangrowth's special defense. Tangrowth is not meant to be used as a special wall. If the opponent sends in a special attacker, you switch out and take advantage of Regenerator. Its physical bulk is better than any Grass type in OU; it is meant to be used as a physical wall with Leftovers.
I also don't know why you keep talking about lack of versatility. It has pretty much every useful move Venusaur has plus a few additional options like Rock Slide, Focus Blast, and Stun Spore. It can run any set Mega Venusaur can. It actually has more versatility since it does not have to rely on Synthesis for healing like Mega Venusaur does.
Last edited:
If you are using a defensive Grass type in the first place, it is for their precious resistances to Water, Electric, Fairy types, who are primarily special offensive types. What use is using a defensive Grass type with poor special bulk when even some resisted hits from said typings can 2HKO it through its poor special bulk with some prior damage. Even thought the best set to differentiate itself from other Grass types is the physically defensive set as I have highlighted in an older post, the most successful set is still the AV set (as seen on its analysis) because it can make actual use of its resistances. And in so doing, it loses Sleep Powder, making it set up bait for many dangerous sweepers. It doesn't have the luxury of abusing its useful resistances and Sleep Powder at the same time, which attributes to low versatility. (Versatility does not only come from what it can run, but also what combination of moves, bulk, etc that it can run.)
Last edited:
To handle a number of physical Water, Fairy, Grass, and Fighting type threats that Hippowdon can't. Azumarill, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Mega Gyarados, Gliscor, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, and Mandibuzz. I could probably add more to the list, but hopefully anyone else reading this gets the point. Tangrowth is valued not so much for its Grass typing as much as its raw bulk. Poison typing turns its crappy defensive typing into decent defensive typing and allows it to make use of its bulk.
We could keep this back and forth going, but at some point you'll have to tell people why they should vote for Jellicent instead of voting against Tangrowth if you want your choice to win. The last page has all been about Tangrowth, so who do you think people will vote for? Your best shot at this point is to drum up enough support for Jellicent so that it gets more votes than Celebi and Sceptile so that it gets a second chance because Tangrowth is probably going to win this round.
The last page was all about Tangrowth because it was all talk between 3 people so I don't see your point in the last paragraph. I'm writing about down about Tangrowth rather than writing up on Jellicent because I'm considering abstaining from voting, even if it were for Jellicent, it plays very similar to Lanturn (and we know Lanturn isn't particlarly effective). I don't give half a flying fuck about whether a my suggestion gets voted into the metagame because I don't ladder on the theorymon ladder, and neither do I care about if my theorymon is archived because no one actually reads that. I am currently playing the devil advocate because what I want is something that actually causes a metagame shift, and giving a secondary Poison typing to Tangrowth doesn't seem to be what excites me (giving it Fighting would).
EDIT: On second thought, Jellicent is very different from Lanturn. But since I'm a person of my words, I am still abstaining from voting for it.
Yes, Tangrowth has impacts in the metagame, as you have mentioned. However, the impact that Tangrowth actually can have on the metagame, we already have stuff that can fulfil those. Of all the options in the list, why would I use Tangrowth instead of Venusaur. The special bulk and ability is much more significant than the slight increase in physical bulk, allowing it to check Greninja, Aegislash, Thundurus, Manaphy and Landorus lacking Psychic, Keldeo (which can 2HKO Tangrowth with Hydro Pump), which are arguably more relevant that the physical threats listed. Or why over Ferrothorn for the matter, why run Tangrowth over Ferrothorn; yes the Fighting weakness is bad, but the fact that Ferrothorn was OU last gen which was dominated by Fighting type attacks (and Psychic type attacks are devoid), and Amoonguss was in RU shows how much a Fighting type weakness actually affects which gets outclassed. In fact, even Celebi gives Tangrowth competition, still handling all the threats that you have mentioned, minus Landorus-T, and Celebi takes less than Tangrowth from Shadow Ball, which attributed to its decline in the first place. Tangrowth has its use, as does every Pokemon that exists, but there isn't a reason to run it.
Last edited:
For the last time, here is why you would use Tangrowth over other Grass types:
Mega Venusaur: Does not take up mega slot, higher physical bulk, Regenerator, Leftovers
Amoongus: Higher physical bulk, capable offensively
Ferrothorn: Not weak to fighting, Regenerator, Synthesis, more offensive
Celebi: Not 4x weak to U-turn, not weak to Knock Off and Crunch, Regenerator, higher physical bulk
These are real legitimate reasons to run Tangrowth over any of the other four. These are indisputable facts. Tangrowth does not have to completely outclass them to be viable, it just has to have these advantages over the others to justify its use. Tangrowth has the best chance of the four options of causing a metagame shift. Jellicent, Sceptile, and Celebi are all D rank or below, and their buffs just don't help them enough. If you don't like the Theorymons on the slate, give alexwolf better suggestions.
Tangrowth always had these advantages, it is not like as if they just appeared because of the added Poison typing. Mono-grass is even terrible as a defensive typing (Arceus-Grass wouldn't be useful otherwise [and Fighting and Fairy types are resists are more valuable in Ubers than OU]), and Poison doesn't make it that much significantly better to be useful. Instead of thinking about what Poison/Grass Tangrowth does, think about what Poison/Grass Tangrowth does that mono-grass Tangrowth cannot already do. Resisting Fighting? every Fighting type that can 2HKO it can still 2HKO it with coverage they always had, and everything that couldn't still couldn't. Resisting Fairy? The only one actually affected is Azumarill. No longer weak to U-Turn? Scizor's CB U-turn barely hits for 45% without the added Poison type. Being immune to Toxic is nice to have, but that sums to 2 new Pokemon that it can handle with an added typing. Walling 2 more Pokemon than it already does, neither of which are particularly hard to handle, how does it impact anything at all?
Having said Jellicent performs similar roles to Lanturn, it does have reliable recovery, Taunt, WoW, and other immunities to differentiate it from Lanturn. Water/Ghost is surprisingly one of the better defensive typings to have, having invaluable resistances and immunities to some of the most commonly used high BP moves. Since nothing directly gives Jellicent competition, it is harder to predict its impact on paper; hence it is still worth seeing its actual performance in the metagame even if it may not be splendid. It does impressive stuff like such as completely walling Electric types, making it a very good partner to defensive Flying types. Walling most variants of Thundurus, Manectric, Zapdos, Raikou is something that nothing else can claim. Avoiding the 2HKO from +1 Mega Gyarados and Specs Keldeo makes it superior to Tangrowth (who get 2HKOed by both) in those specific roles. Taunt and WoW means it will never become set up bait. Even if it doesn't have amazing speed, it still is capable of outspeeding standard Mawile with only 48 Spd. Few Pokemons from B+ to S rank actually can defeat Jellicent reliably without being heavily crippled, considering most of its checks are in fact physical attackers that 2HKO it, which means they hate WoW. In fact, giving any Water type Volt Absorb immediately makes them significantly better by allowing them to completely wall all OU viable Electric types coupled with their coverage options. The suggestion to give it to Jellicent is because it is the best defensive Water type that is not already in B+ or above.
EDIT: Anyway I think that from next slate onwards, alexwolf should exclude the name of the suggester in the slate and archives, so discussions will be more free from bias. Discussion will more be based on "which is useful and which is not" rather than "which is mine and which is not". Seeing from his use of words on this page, Red Cat is obviously shooting down my arguments against Tangrowth because he thought I am writing against it because of because "it is not mine", even though the reasoning are from from a relatively objective viewpoint, where each claim is substantiated with unbiased reasoning (at least I think they are).
Last edited:
No need to hide the names of the submitters, i have hardly seen any personal bias getting in the way of good arguing in this thread, so i don't think it's a problem.
As for Grass / Poison Tangrowth, i would totally use this thing with Assault Vest. The added Poison-typing allows Tangrowth to combat Azumarill, CM Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Mawile, Gengar, Terrakion, Breloom, and Conkeldurr, out of which Azumarill, Keldeo, and Clefable are pretty damn important and metagame defining threats. Although with the added Poison-typing AV Tangrowth can't anymore check Latios, Latias, and Deoxys-S, those Pokemon are much eaisier to check in general than Clefable, Keldeo, and Azumariil, not to mention that STAB Poison moves are great in this metagame, especially when you can go either physical or special. For example, Poison Jab 3HKOes CM Unaware Clefable, a huge threat, and the big Poison chance helps pressure it even more. Leaf Storm / Poison Jab / Knock Off / Earthquake would make for a great moveset able to at least annoy most Pokemon in OU, outside of a few MEvos.
As to what AV Tangrowth would have over Mega Venu:
Anyway, discussion is now over, let's go to voting. As usual, PM your vote ot Salemance, and you have 24 hours.
As for Grass / Poison Tangrowth, i would totally use this thing with Assault Vest. The added Poison-typing allows Tangrowth to combat Azumarill, CM Clefable, Keldeo, Mega Mawile, Gengar, Terrakion, Breloom, and Conkeldurr, out of which Azumarill, Keldeo, and Clefable are pretty damn important and metagame defining threats. Although with the added Poison-typing AV Tangrowth can't anymore check Latios, Latias, and Deoxys-S, those Pokemon are much eaisier to check in general than Clefable, Keldeo, and Azumariil, not to mention that STAB Poison moves are great in this metagame, especially when you can go either physical or special. For example, Poison Jab 3HKOes CM Unaware Clefable, a huge threat, and the big Poison chance helps pressure it even more. Leaf Storm / Poison Jab / Knock Off / Earthquake would make for a great moveset able to at least annoy most Pokemon in OU, outside of a few MEvos.
As to what AV Tangrowth would have over Mega Venu:
- Regenerator (absolutely huge)
- Not occupying your Mega slot
- Superior physical bulk
- Poison Jab for CM Clefable
- Richer movepool
Anyway, discussion is now over, let's go to voting. As usual, PM your vote ot Salemance, and you have 24 hours.
Tangrowth needs to run 196 Atk EVs to 2HKO Clefable after SR (Unaware), while it needs 240+ to 2HKO Magic Guard Clefable, which is way too many EVs if you ask me. Clefable can easily Calm Mind up and heal stall it, while +1 Flamethrower 2HKOes AV Tangrowth, while +5 Clefable can secure the 2HKO on Mega Venusaur. I agree 100% that Tangrowth is better than Mega Venusuar, but not for beating Clefable, because it does not.
Fairy wat?
Water and Ground are the main resistances you're after. The electric resist is nice, but it doesn't avoid paralysis or stop volt switch, so ground is generally better against electric. Tangrowth's claim to fame defensively has always been stopping things like Garchomp and Excadrill. On which note, a poison type is actually a mixed bag actually...
Scratch that, I meant reasons for using Grass/Poisons. The value of Grass/Poison over Grass is actually quite questionable because their share of pros and cons actually are quite balanced
Last edited:
Grass/Poison v Grass
Pros
Bug neutrality
Poison neutrality
Fairy resist
Fighting resist
x4 Grass resist
Immune to Poison status and absorbs Toxic Spikes
Secondary STAB
Cons
Ground neutrality
Psychic weakness
Losing the Ground resist sucks, but I'd say the Bug neutrality, Fairy/Fighting resist, and Toxic immunity make Grass/Poison a pretty obviously superior type.
Pros
Bug neutrality
Poison neutrality
Fairy resist
Fighting resist
x4 Grass resist
Immune to Poison status and absorbs Toxic Spikes
Secondary STAB
Cons
Ground neutrality
Psychic weakness
Losing the Ground resist sucks, but I'd say the Bug neutrality, Fairy/Fighting resist, and Toxic immunity make Grass/Poison a pretty obviously superior type.
It's not that bad losing the ground resistence when ground types probably don't want to switch into you anyways or those that can (fucking Charizard) have other means of beating you
- Status