Other Most overhyped or underated aspect this gen so far?

[Richitt]

Gotta agree with this. Truth be told, priority is a great aspect for Pokemon that have access, whether it be attacks or Prankster, but it is anything but mandatory for successful teams, and seeing players state that it is is absolutely corrupt. You aren't always guaranteed to sweep teams entirely with a 40 BP attack, nor have the freedom to spam it into oblivion carelessly, without any proper support.

Agree for the most part, but this is why I believe Talonflame's hype to be justified, as its not a 40BP priority in its case, not 90 (scizor bullet punch), not even 120 (Arceus Extremespeed) but a 160 BP priority. Yes, his base attack is a bit low, but it's still far above the average mach punch.

It alone poses a threat to something like, say, a setup Volcarona or anything weak to flying setting up (other than bulk up), because it just hits so hard.

 

[Terminate421]

Agree for the most part, but this is why I believe Talonflame's hype to be justified, as its not a 40BP priority in its case, not 90 (scizor bullet punch), not even 120 (Arceus Extremespeed) but a 160 BP priority. Yes, his base attack is a bit low, but it's still far above the average mach punch.

It alone poses a threat to something like, say, a setup Volcarona or anything weak to flying setting up (other than bulk up), because it just hits so hard.

Anyone in the right mind would do one of the following against that Talonflame:

Have Stealth Rocks set up
Switch to a rock type pokemon of almost any kind (Tyranitar is a great one)
Attempt to cripple it with Thunder Wave on some electric type pokemon
Use faster Priority (Sucker Punch Anything /Extreme Speed)
Use Intimidate and lower the damage output thus forcing a switch
Make it hit rough skin rocky helmet

Flying is a rather strange type, there are defensive pokemon and offensive ones of it's kind. It's a glass cannon but also defensive at the same time. Talonflame is not god, not required, and definitely not the "threat" of this generation. If people think it's a threat, carry a friggin' counter for it like any smart trainer does.

My solution aside from the above mentioned? Send out Zygarde who can take the hit, dragon dance if possible (Have lum berry for wil-o-wisp), Extreme speed, dead Talonflame (Heavily fragile if bulked up and full health).

My best solution? Tyranitar. Then if burned, use heal bell Gardevoir.

 

[Richitt]

Anyone in the right mind would do one of the following against that Talonflame:

Have Stealth Rocks set up
Switch to a rock type pokemon of almost any kind (Tyranitar is a great one)
Attempt to cripple it with Thunder Wave on some electric type pokemon
Use faster Priority (Sucker Punch Anything /Extreme Speed)
Use Intimidate and lower the damage output thus forcing a switch
Make it hit rough skin rocky helmet

Flying is a rather strange type, there are defensive pokemon and offensive ones of it's kind. It's a glass cannon but also defensive at the same time. Talonflame is not god, not required, and definitely not the "threat" of this generation. If people think it's a threat, carry a friggin' counter for it like any smart trainer does.

My solution aside from the above mentioned? Send out Zygarde who can take the hit, dragon dance if possible (Have lum berry for wil-o-wisp), Extreme speed, dead Talonflame (Heavily fragile if bulked up and full health).

My best solution? Tyranitar. Then if burned, use heal bell Gardevoir.

I don't get how what you're saying refers to what I'm saying.

The person I quoted said priority isn't that strong, which I agree with, but then say one of the reasons is because priority is commonly just a 40 BP move (sometimes increased with stab).
I just pointed out one of the biggest priority moves this gen is Talonflame's brave bird, which is far bigger than just a measly 40 BP, going up to 90 with technician/stab.

What you're saying doesn't really... point out anything against me, nor do I disagree with you.

I did not say Talonflame is god, nor required, but rather said the hype was justified, because he's just a good pokemon, akin to me saying Scizor is good.

 

[Seiterman]

Anyone in the right mind would do one of the following against that Talonflame:

Have Stealth Rocks set up
Switch to a rock type pokemon of almost any kind (Tyranitar is a great one)
Attempt to cripple it with Thunder Wave on some electric type pokemon
Use faster Priority (Sucker Punch Anything /Extreme Speed)
Use Intimidate and lower the damage output thus forcing a switch
Make it hit rough skin rocky helmet

Flying is a rather strange type, there are defensive pokemon and offensive ones of it's kind. It's a glass cannon but also defensive at the same time. Talonflame is not god, not required, and definitely not the "threat" of this generation. If people think it's a threat, carry a friggin' counter for it like any smart trainer does.

My solution aside from the above mentioned? Send out Zygarde who can take the hit, dragon dance if possible (Have lum berry for wil-o-wisp), Extreme speed, dead Talonflame (Heavily fragile if bulked up and full health).

My best solution? Tyranitar. Then if burned, use heal bell Gardevoir.

You understand that just because answers exist to a given Pokemon does not mean it isn't good, right?

Talonflame got hyped, but it's good at what it does. It has very powerful priority with decent neutral coverage. It can revenge kill several threats and cleanup weakened teams.

It's not the best thing in the world, but no one here was saying it is.

 

[PrincessDerpy]

The right answer always depends on your team and the situation. It is true that teams can run counters without even trying, but it's also true that those can be navigated and it goes without saying that Talon forces out anything it can smash into the ground. Talon's best use is revenge or momentum grabber, and it's pretty good at doing that when its team can keep rocks off the field.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Anyone in the right mind would do one of the following against that Talonflame:

Have Stealth Rocks set up
Switch to a rock type pokemon of almost any kind (Tyranitar is a great one)
Attempt to cripple it with Thunder Wave on some electric type pokemon
Use faster Priority (Sucker Punch Anything /Extreme Speed)
Use Intimidate and lower the damage output thus forcing a switch
Make it hit rough skin rocky helmet

Flying is a rather strange type, there are defensive pokemon and offensive ones of it's kind. It's a glass cannon but also defensive at the same time. Talonflame is not god, not required, and definitely not the "threat" of this generation. If people think it's a threat, carry a friggin' counter for it like any smart trainer does.

My solution aside from the above mentioned? Send out Zygarde who can take the hit, dragon dance if possible (Have lum berry for wil-o-wisp), Extreme speed, dead Talonflame (Heavily fragile if bulked up and full health).

My best solution? Tyranitar. Then if burned, use heal bell Gardevoir.

It is a major threat of this generation because it does force one to actually run something bulky with Stone Edge on it or Rotom-W. Some are using AncientPower on Heatran which would normally be a niche option to kill Volcarona. It seems like if you fail to maintain Stealth Rock, you lose. Heatran is NOT a Talonflame counter since it could use Roost and SD, although it does have Roar but that is only useful if you have Stealth Rock up, and it takes an additional turn to use Rocks if it has been spun away.

Ask yourself why Keldeo's use has been quite low this gen. One major factor is the existence of Talonflame (whose existence also spikes Rotom usage too) and that can tank Specs Sword and Hydro Pump too. Greninja also has special attacking prowess and a better speed tier too, but a 129 SpAtk Water STAB along with a fighting STAB that hit on the physical side is quite good, but it is still KOed by Talonflame since its Fighting type becomes a liability. Any selling points of Keldeo are rendered meaningless with Talonflame.

Crippling it with Thunder Wave is not reliable since it can outspeed Prankster Thundurus if Talonflame is Jolly.

It would be nice if it had weaker physical defenses so Genesect could get the precious Download boost so it can use Pseudo STAB ExtemeSpeed.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

It is a major threat of this generation because it does force one to actually run something bulky with Stone Edge on it or Rotom-W. Some are using AncientPower on Heatran which would normally be a niche option to kill Volcarona. It seems like if you fail to maintain Stealth Rock, you lose. Heatran is NOT a Talonflame counter since it could use Roost and SD, although it does have Roar but that is only useful if you have Stealth Rock up, and it takes an additional turn to use Rocks if it has been spun away.

Ask yourself why Keldeo's use has been quite low this gen. One major factor is the existence of Talonflame (whose existence also spikes Rotom usage too) and that can tank Specs Sword and Hydro Pump too. Greninja also has special attacking prowess and a better speed tier too, but a 129 SpAtk Water STAB along with a fighting STAB that hit on the physical side is quite good, but it is still KOed by Talonflame since its Fighting type becomes a liability. Any selling points of Keldeo are rendered meaningless with Talonflame.

Crippling it with Thunder Wave is not reliable since it can outspeed Prankster Thundurus if Talonflame is Jolly.

It would be nice if it had weaker physical defenses so Genesect could get the precious Download boost so it can use Pseudo STAB ExtemeSpeed.

To be fair, Heatran is a pretty hard counter since you can just run Toxic and Roar which are fairly standard on SpDef Heatran and unlike most other Talonflame counters, you don't fear the rare WoW.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

To be fair, Heatran is a pretty hard counter since you can just run Toxic and Roar which are fairly standard on SpDef Heatran and unlike most other Talonflame counters, you don't fear the rare WoW.

A stall team, AJs, was using AncientPower to defeat it, instead of the obvious Toxic, which surely has more utility outside of Talonflame. Toxic requires too much time to kill it, especially if it can boost.

Moreover, since Talonflame is usually run with Excadrill, Heatran is also quite weak to teams running Talonflame.

Lando-T is probably the best Stealth Rock setter in the game, since it can scare of balloonless Excadrill, and packs Stone Edge for Talonflame.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

A stall team, AJs, was using AncientPower to defeat it, instead of the obvious Toxic, which surely has more utility outside of Talonflame. Toxic requires too much time to kill it, especially if it can boost.

Roar laughs at boosting Talonflame. There's honestly very little reason not to run Toxic over Ancient Power on Defensive Heatran. AJ's team is fantastic but that doesn't mean that Heatran HAS to run something niche in order to wall the hell out of Talonflame.

EDIT: Listing a teammate that can take care of Heatran does nothing to change the fact that Heatran is a hard counter (which is the point I'm contending). Lando-T is great, obviously but even it does not like WoW on the switch or taking repeated CB Brave Birds, even at -1.

 

[Dododoggy]

Talonflame…. Its Everwhere…...

 

[ColtCababa]

Crippling it with Thunder Wave is not reliable since it can outspeed Prankster Thundurus if Talonflame is Jolly.

Really? The Talonflame user is just going to have it wildly Brave Bird without a care in the world while Thundurus easily takes it and can then cripple it with Thunder Wave or take it out with an Electric attack? Yeah, totally worth running Jolly there, it really got them far.

 

[Wasted]

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 143-168 (47.6 - 56%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO

Thundurus is not switching into Jolly Talonflame safely, especially if Stealth Rocks or Sandstorm are up.

Timid Thundurus outspeeds Adamant Talonflame by two points. Talon HAS to be Jolly to win all conceivable priority wars.

 

[Magnemite]

I find Clefable to be very under-hyped, even now. It has sneaked its way into OU range in terms of usage without too many people mentioning it. It's not the greatest fairy ever, but it has two absolutely wonderful abilities, reliable recovery, and a fantastic defensive typing. Magic Guard Calm Mind is very good, especially when coupled with instant healing in Softboiled and perfect two-move coverage.


Also:

Overhyped:

Mega Kangaskhan

lol

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

I find Clefable to be very under-hyped, even now. It has sneaked its way into OU range in terms of usage without too many people mentioning it. It's not the greatest fairy ever, but it has two absolutely wonderful abilities, reliable recovery, and a fantastic defensive typing. Magic Guard Calm Mind is very good, especially when coupled with instant healing in Softboiled and perfect two-move coverage.

I second this. Clefable is perhaps one of the more obscure Fairies, not one that's like Azumarill that's now known as a Easter Egg of Doom, or the bleh Fairies like Dedenne. It's got immunity to Hazards if you run Magic Guard, or it can say screw you to setup Sweepers if you opt for Unaware, though Steel Types do hurt that role, what with Mega Lucario and Scizor running amuck. It can Aromatherapy as well, giving your team a second chance at life if your sweeper has been crippled, and with TWave and WoW running around, it's entirely possible for it to happen. So I'd say Clefable is a solid Fairy that has a new chance at life thanks to the Fairy type itself being very good, maybe not the best, but still pretty solid.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Can we please fix the spelling errors in the title it's driving me insane.
Anyways, I feel Aegislah was a bit of both. It's Stance dance set was overhyped, as it became very predictable, but mixed, special, and defensive sets have become more and more prominent, which is good. Honestly Aegislash is one of the best mons in OU right now, we just needed to figure out its best sets.

 

[Seiterman]

Ask yourself why Keldeo's use has been quite low this gen. One major factor is the existence of Talonflame (whose existence also spikes Rotom usage too) and that can tank Specs Sword and Hydro Pump too.

Just for clarification, you're talking about Rotom-W tanking those Specs moves, right? The way the parentheses are set up it looks like you're saying Talonflame tanks Keldeo's STAB's, which obviously isn't true.

(The following calculations use Timid Keldeo, and are purely to show how hard Keldeo hits.)

Talonflame doesn't want to switch into Specs (or non-Specs,) Keldeo, but it easily revenge-kills him (even without a boost or boosting item.)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 137-162 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 137-162 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 594-702 (199.3 - 235.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As for Rotom-W, it still needs to fear Sacred Sword. It can switch in on any other move if Keldeo runs Specs, though it can still expect to take a chunk of damage in the process. This changes if it's physically defensive, so I'll show calcs for both.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 92-108 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 126-149 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W can hit back pretty hard with Volt Switch or Thunderbolt, but doesn't outspeed without a Choice Scarf.

The point of all of this was just to show that neither Talonflame or Rotom-W is a totally safe switch-in for Specs Keldeo. I'm not entirely sure exactly which you were referring to so I covered my bases. Nonetheless, Talonflame definitely inhibits Keldeo's usefulness by serving as an absolute revenge killer to most sets that can tank a single Secret Sword if SR isn't up (albeit pretty poorly.) Rotom-W can take Hydro Pumps pretty well, but if it switches into Secret Sword it may very well fall before it can hit back.

Edit: Tying this all into the topic a bit better, I think Keldeo is underrated, or at the very least underused in comparison to how useful it is. It still hits hard, has pretty good speed, nice STAB's, can be run alongside Politoed if you really want Drizzle (Politoed is still pretty good too,) and though it doesn't like Talonflame, there are plenty of answers to the bird.

 

[MegaSnorlax]

No he dosen't. +1 Ageislash rips into K9; as can mixed LO. King's Shield wrecks it too.

Will O Wisp goes through Kings Shield all day. I have never lost to an Aegislash when using a team with Arcanine. Arcanine owns Aegislash every day of the week. Arcanine switches in to +2 Aegislash and wrecks it.

Try it yourself, max HP and Def IVs, DEF boosting nature, Will O Wisp, Extremespeed, Flare Blitz morning sun and leftovers.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Try it yourself, max HP and Def IVs, DEF boosting nature, Will O Wisp, Extremespeed, Flare Blitz morning sun and leftovers.

That set seems to be walled by Jellicent to no end. You can't Extreme Speed it, your FB is resisted, and the Undead Mustache does not care about WoW, while Arcanine would care about taking a Scald, or any Water move for that matter.

 

[Dododoggy]

I find Clefable to be very under-hyped, even now. It has sneaked its way into OU range in terms of usage without too many people mentioning it. It's not the greatest fairy ever, but it has two absolutely wonderful abilities, reliable recovery, and a fantastic defensive typing. Magic Guard Calm Mind is very good, especially when coupled with instant healing in Softboiled and perfect two-move coverage.


Also:

lol

I personally think clefable is awesome this gen!

 

[Azure30]

Anyone in the right mind would do one of the following against that Talonflame:

Have Stealth Rocks set up
Switch to a rock type pokemon of almost any kind (Tyranitar is a great one)
Attempt to cripple it with Thunder Wave on some electric type pokemon
Use faster Priority (Sucker Punch Anything /Extreme Speed)
Use Intimidate and lower the damage output thus forcing a switch
Make it hit rough skin rocky helmet

Flying is a rather strange type, there are defensive pokemon and offensive ones of it's kind. It's a glass cannon but also defensive at the same time. Talonflame is not god, not required, and definitely not the "threat" of this generation. If people think it's a threat, carry a friggin' counter for it like any smart trainer does.

My solution aside from the above mentioned? Send out Zygarde who can take the hit, dragon dance if possible (Have lum berry for wil-o-wisp), Extreme speed, dead Talonflame (Heavily fragile if bulked up and full health).

My best solution? Tyranitar. Then if burned, use heal bell Gardevoir.

SR - Yes, certainly a strong answer given its main weakness is rock.

Rock types - not so much. If rock-types are anti-talonflame, then you pair talonflame with an anti-rock pokemon. Tyranitar, meet Dugtrio.

Electric type, meet Dugtrio. This is why I'm a big supporter of TalonTrio. But this is also one of the many reasons why Rotom-W is such a strong anti-metagame presence. It can easily handle this core. And anyway.. you know paralyzing it wont stop it from still attacking first outside of anything else using priority, right? Talon is not too worried about being paralyzed... if you've got an electric type out in the first place you'd be better off simply attempting to fry it with lightning.

There is no such thing as faster priority than Talonflame unless it exists in yet an even higher tier of priority. Sucker Punch doesn't work like that, in fact, it's the absolute LAST thing you'd want to use against Talonflame. Sucker Punch has +1 priority, Talonflame's flying attacks all have +1 priority. Even if the opponent uses an attacking move, Sucker Punch will fail if the user doesn't go first. Talonflame has base 126 speed. Even uninvested you are going to be hard pressed to find anything with 'faster priority'. Extremespeed works but only because its +2 priority. Anything in the +1 priority bracket is safer to assume to go after Talonflame.

Not a whole lot of intimidaters out there to begin with. They need to switch in or come in fresh after an opponent drops so that serves as a check... IF they can threaten to KO, as Talon could be running swords dance/roost... and banded variants can certainly still 2HKO on what is effectively just an unboosted Brave Bird by that point.

'Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet' - While these abilities/the helmet are very helpful, some people seem to take it a bit too far and rely on them to get them KOs. In almost all cases all you accomplish is punching a hole in your opponents health and then you lose your pokemon. If you believe that has great merit (and it certainly might) in giving your next pokemon the space it needs to finish off your opponent or force a switch/set up, then the same logic holds true for Talonflame and is the reason why it is such a threat in OU play: nothing can outspeed AND KO Talonflame - its either one or the other. Nothing wants to take a neutral banded/+2 Brave Bird either, whether it KOs or not it is nearly guaranteed damage that will punch a significant hole in even the strongest walls out there.

 

[seoulwolf]

I personally think clefable is awesome this gen!

I run Clefable on my Pokemon Showdown team, and all you have to do is send it in on a special attacker and start spamming calm mind. Once at least two of those are up, you can start destroying teams with Stored power or Moonblast. Plus, you can heal up every couple of hits with Moonlight/softboiled. Many people quit after I get up two CM's.

Also, continueing on the Talonflame discussion: Talonflame is an awesome poke this gen thus far (Not sure how he'll do with Pokebank), but he has been solid. Running SD, BB, FB, and U-turn on him, makes it so even is tyranitar switches in on him, a +2 U-turn takes a large chunk out of its health. Plus, if the opposing team only has bug/fighting/grass or frail revenge killers left on their team, they literally can't do anything to stop it. Again, many people have simply quit once I got up a +2 on my Talonflame. People like quitting on me...

 

[NotSoClutch]

I run Clefable on my Pokemon Showdown team, and all you have to do is send it in on a special attacker and start spamming calm mind. Once at least two of those are up, you can start destroying teams with Stored power or Moonblast. Plus, you can heal up every couple of hits with Moonlight/softboiled. Many people quit after I get up two CM's.

What do you pack for excadrill or scizor or litterally any steel type? Teamwise I mean since you are clearly not running anything for them on clefable itself. Magnezone could be a really great teamate for that clefable since it currently gets walled fairly easily and maybe a heatran to wall genesect. scizor could sill be a problem though. Im mostly asking out of curiosity since I can never get clefable to work without fire coverage.

 

[JustDoingStats]

Rock types - not so much. If rock-types are anti-talonflame, then you pair talonflame with an anti-rock pokemon. Tyranitar, meet Dugtrio.

Regirock is a hard counter for Talonflame and beats the Dugtrio if you try to check it with that.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 71.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 116-140 (31.8 - 38.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 128-152 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(After a Stone Edge, Dugtrio's strongest move will still be Earthquake, for anyone thinking about Reversal)

 

[NotSoClutch]

Regirock is a hard counter for Talonflame and beats the Dugtrio if you try to check it with that.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 71.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 116-140 (31.8 - 38.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 128-152 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(After a Stone Edge, Dugtrio's strongest move will still be Earthquake, for anyone thinking about Reversal)

Yeah, but aside from me and apparently you, no one will ever run regirock. It has no recovery, it doesn't hit all that hard, and its move pool is a little lacking.

 

[DinaIsha]

What do you pack for excadrill or scizor or litterally any steel type? Teamwise I mean since you are clearly not running anything for them on clefable itself. Magnezone could be a really great teamate for that clefable since it currently gets walled fairly easily and maybe a heatran to wall genesect. scizor could sill be a problem though. Im mostly asking out of curiosity since I can never get clefable to work without fire coverage.

You know what KOes Clefable, Excadrill and Magnezone? Lucario. The Mega is even more of a threat. At +2, Mega Lucario's Close Combat can KO Defensive Scizor. That should put things in perspective.