[QC READY 2/3] Togekiss

Deoxymoron

Deoxymoron

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[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Good SpA and 85/95/115 bulk.</li>
<li>Useful coverage and support moves</li>
<li>Able to successfully run an offensive or a support set</li>
<li>New Fairy typing provides nice STAB and immunity to Dragon</li>
<li>Serene Grace allows for ParaFlinch shenanigans</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Weakness to Stealth Rock</li>
<li> Serious 4-moveslot-syndrome </li>
<li>80 Speed limits its effectiveness</li>
<li>Now has five weaknesses, including Mega Gengar's Poison typing and Scizor's Steel typing. </li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]
<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spe<br />
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)<br />
- Nasty Plot/Thunder Wave<br />
- Air Slash/Fire Blast<br />
- Roost<br />
- Dazzling Gleam/Fire Blast/Flamethrower</p>
  • Usually naturally bulky enough to pull off a Nasty Plot
  • Immune to both Dragon- and Ground-type moves, so most Dragons not running Stone Edge are walled hard
  • EVs give Togekiss maximum special bulk
  • Can be either team support or an excellent wallbreaker and a decent late-game sweeper at +2
  • Can run Life Orb and 20 SpA EVs to OHKO Mega Gengar at +2
  • Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot are both good options for Togekiss, one making it a better support mon and the other making it a stronger attacker
  • Serene Grace Air Slash + Thunder Wave wears the opponent down with ease and often scores surprise KOs
  • Roost provides great immediate recovery
  • Dazzling Gleam hits Dragon-types hard, Fire Blast and Flamethrower provide good coverage
  • Fire Blast is preferred because it has a good chance to 2HKO Aegislash with Leftovers
  • Good partners include users of Rapid Spin and Defog
  • Sticky Web support helps compensate for Togekiss's mediocre Speed
  • Anything that can take on Electric-types is useful, such as Goodra or Gourgeist
  • Good teammates include pokemon like Mega Heracross who can use the paralysis to sweep
<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers <br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe<br />
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
- Nasty Plot / Thunder Wave<br />
- Air Slash/Fire Blast<br />
- Roost<br />
- Dazzling Gleam</p>
  • Good defensive set to counter physical Dragon-types
  • Immune to both Dragon- and Ground-type moves, so most Dragons not running Stone Edge are walled hard
  • EVs give Togekiss maximum physical bulk
  • Dazzling Gleam counters Dragon-types by hitting them super effectively
  • Air Slash is a great STAB attack with Serene Grace
  • Fire Blast provides great coverage with Dazzling Gleam
  • Roost provides good immediate recovery
  • Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot are both good options for Togekiss, one making it a better support mon and the other making it a stronger attacker
  • Appreciates Rapid Spin and Defog support
  • Anything that can take on Electric-types is useful, most notably Dugtrio due to Arena Trap
  • Can run Life Orb and SpA EVs to hit Dragon-types even harder

<p>Togekiss @ Life Orb/Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpA / 52 Spe<br />
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)<br />
- Dazzling Gleam<br />
- Air Slash<br />
- Fire Blast/Aura Sphere<br />
- Roost</p>
  • Attacks right from the get-go
  • Functions more as a counter to dragon-types than a check
  • EVs give it max HP and enough Speed to outspeed 0 Spe Rotom-W and everything else goes into SpA
  • Can run 176 or 196 Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Breloom and Jolly Tyranitar respectively
  • Dazzling Gleam hits Dragon-types hard
  • Air Slash is a great STAB attack with Serene Grace
  • Aura Sphere and Fire Blast both provide good coverage
  • Fire Blast + Dazzling Gleam hits a lot of targets super-effectively
  • Roost provides immediate recovery and increases Togekiss's longevity
  • The appeal of this set is that it takes no set-up and has three moves for coverage
  • Appreciates Rapid Spin and Defog support

[Checks and Counters]

  • Scizor and Gengar can outspeed Togekiss and Mega-Evolve in the same turn, but cannot OHKO without prior damage.
  • Powerful Electric-types such as Zapdos and Jolteon are immune to Thunder Wave and usually outspeed and OHKO
  • Rotom-W in particular is difficult because it resists Fire Blast
  • Aegislash can come in on anything that isn't Fire Blast, but can be 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock
  • Crobat, Aerodactyl, Barbacle and any pokemon with Ice Shard or Bullet Punch is immediately a threat to Togekiss
  • Fast Pokemon with Taunt can limit Togekiss's usefulness
 
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Ok so if I'm interpreting this correctly you have offensive nasty plot and you have special wall, more or less. I don't understand the first set, bulky NP togekiss is much better than offensive, Togekiss's stats really lend themselves to that role. I also don't understand why dazzling gleam is a must have on offensive togekiss, the coverage is not that great and the BP of the move is nothing special. I think air slash/aura sphere is good enough coverage, between those two you only lose out on dragon types, which are not such an issue because all they can do to togekiss is weak fire moves. The lack of fire blast does admittedly make scizor more of an issue, but it offers literally no other coverage. If you remove dazzling gleam, you can run roost which makes togekiss into a very dangerous tank instead of a mediocre sweeper that will die off quickly. I also think that a bulkier spread will work much better. Togekiss has good typing an bulk, use them. If it had stats like alakazam that would be the appropriate set. It doesn't. The bulky set looks fine except mention body slam, it can paralyze grounds like gliscor or something.
 
Asterat said:
Ok so if I'm interpreting this correctly you have offensive nasty plot and you have special wall, more or less. I don't understand the first set, bulky NP togekiss is much better than offensive, Togekiss's stats really lend themselves to that role. I also don't understand why dazzling gleam is a must have on offensive togekiss, the coverage is not that great and the BP of the move is nothing special. I think air slash/aura sphere is good enough coverage, between those two you only lose out on dragon types, which are not such an issue because all they can do to togekiss is weak fire moves. The lack of fire blast does admittedly make scizor more of an issue, but it offers literally no other coverage. If you remove dazzling gleam, you can run roost which makes togekiss into a very dangerous tank instead of a mediocre sweeper that will die off quickly. I also think that a bulkier spread will work much better. Togekiss has good typing an bulk, use them. If it had stats like alakazam that would be the appropriate set. It doesn't. The bulky set looks fine except mention body slam, it can paralyze grounds like gliscor or something.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback :) Changed NP Togekiss's EV spread and moveset. I'm keeping Fire Blast as a slash because it hits Aegislash as well, which will probably be somewhat prevalent in the OU metagame. Also, Togekiss is one of the only viable Fairy-types in OU, so Dazzling Gleam can be run to make it a better Dragon-type counter. Also Body Slam is a Move Tutor move, so I can't put it in the analysis.
 
Maybe a mention of Flamethrower on the second set? Roasts Skarm, Ferro and Forry, which can set up on Togekiss and can hit Scizor on the switch
 
I think the second set needs some work. The idea that Togekiss has to run Thunder Wave + Air Slash is a little silly, I think. Yes, Thunder Wave is a great option, but I don't think it should be on the set while Dazzling Gleam is only slashed. Togekiss prides itself in being a perfect counter to Dragon types, but the set you have proposed doesn't really deal with them all that well. Second, I think that you should be running a physically defensive spread. Thinking about the actual resistances that Togekiss has, it seems to check Fighting, Bug, Dragon, and Ground types above all else. This leads me to believe that it should capitalize on those resistances and immunities with a physical spread. I mean, think about it. Hydreigon can't touch Togekiss unless it runs Flash Cannon, which can only 2HKO with LO, and 4 SAtk Dazzling Gleam has a >50% chance of OHKOing Hydreigon after SR and LO recoil. I really think that this is a minimal threat, so investing in Defense and having a spread that makes it a more reliable answer to Dragonite and Garchomp is much better than the alternative. I would make the set like this:


<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 4 SAtk / 44 Spe<br />
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
- Dazzling Gleam<br />
- Air Slash<br />
- Roost<br />
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Defog</p>

Also, does it even get Defog right now? If so, that's great but I feel like it doesn't.
 
Red3mpti0n said:
Maybe a mention of Flamethrower on the second set? Roasts Skarm, Ferro and Forry, which can set up on Togekiss and can hit Scizor on the switch
Click to expand...

True, but if you really want a Fairy-type to be able to damage a Steel-type you should probably run offensive Nasty Plot. The other moves give Togekiss more utility than a coverage move would, IMO. I guess I'll Fire Blast (the extra BP really helps) as the last slash but I don't think it's all that useful.

Halcyon. said:
I think the second set needs some work. The idea that Togekiss has to run Thunder Wave + Air Slash is a little silly, I think. Yes, Thunder Wave is a great option, but I don't think it should be on the set while Dazzling Gleam is only slashed. Togekiss prides itself in being a perfect counter to Dragon types, but the set you have proposed doesn't really deal with them all that well. Second, I think that you should be running a physically defensive spread. Thinking about the actual resistances that Togekiss has, it seems to check Fighting, Bug, Dragon, and Ground types above all else. This leads me to believe that it should capitalize on those resistances and immunities with a physical spread. I mean, think about it. Hydreigon can't touch Togekiss unless it runs Flash Cannon, which can only 2HKO with LO, and 4 SAtk Dazzling Gleam has a >50% chance of OHKOing Hydreigon after SR and LO recoil. I really think that this is a minimal threat, so investing in Defense and having a spread that makes it a more reliable answer to Dragonite and Garchomp is much better than the alternative. I would make the set like this:


<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 4 SAtk / 44 Spe<br />
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
- Dazzling Gleam<br />
- Air Slash<br />
- Roost<br />
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Defog</p>

Also, does it even get Defog right now? If so, that's great but I feel like it doesn't.
Click to expand...

I'll answer each of your points individually.
  • The specially defensive set that I'm running works best with Thunder Wave. Without Heal Bell this gen, Togekiss doesn't have any moves that provide that much utility.
  • If you bothered to read the other comments, you'd see that Asterat pointed out that Dazzling Gleam isn't even a must have on the Nasty Plot set, so I don't know why you thing it definitely deserves a spot on the defensive set.
  • I'll definitely add a physically defensive set, thanks for mentioning it.
  • "4 SAtk Dazzling Gleam has a >50% chance of OHKOing Hydreigon after SR and LO recoil" you can't guarantee an OHKO after Stealth Rock AND Life Orb recoil on a pokemon 4x weak to your STAB then maybe it's not a great counter :/
  • I think you're right about Defog, I'll take it out :(
 
Deoxymoron said:
True, but if you really want a Fairy-type to be able to damage a Steel-type you should probably run offensive Nasty Plot. The other moves give Togekiss more utility than a coverage move would, IMO. I guess I'll Fire Blast (the extra BP really helps) as the last slash but I don't think it's all that useful.



I'll answer each of your points individually.
  • The specially defensive set that I'm running works best with Thunder Wave. Without Heal Bell this gen, Togekiss doesn't have any moves that provide that much utility.
  • If you bothered to read the other comments, you'd see that Asterat pointed out that Dazzling Gleam isn't even a must have on the Nasty Plot set, so I don't know why you thing it definitely deserves a spot on the defensive set.
  • I'll definitely add a physically defensive set, thanks for mentioning it.
  • "4 SAtk Dazzling Gleam has a >50% chance of OHKOing Hydreigon after SR and LO recoil" you can't guarantee an OHKO after Stealth Rock AND Life Orb recoil on a pokemon 4x weak to your STAB then maybe it's not a great counter :/
  • I think you're right about Defog, I'll take it out :(
Click to expand...

I did read the other comments, and I think that Asterat is wrong. Dragons have more than just Fire moves to hit Togekiss with. Garchomp can 2HKO you with Stone Edge if you aren't careful. Dazzling Gleam, as I said, is important for hitting the Dragons that you're supposed to be countering. I don't see how that isn't more important than any other move Togekiss could possibly run. Think about it like this: you switch into Dragonite or Garchomp, but what exactly are you going to do to them? Dragonite carries Lum Berry for your T-wave Air Slash shenanigans and Garchomp is immune to it. At the very least you should be running a move that can 2HKO both of them.

Here are some relevant calc's:

4 SpA Togekiss Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 234-276 (78.78 - 92.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Togekiss Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.36 - 77.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Togekiss Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 204-240 (62.96 - 74.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Togekiss Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 270-320 (81.57 - 96.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

compared to...

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 73-86 (24.57 - 28.95%) -- 99.27% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 73-86 (20.39 - 24.02%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 63-75 (19.44 - 23.14%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence: 85-101 (25.67 - 30.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So don't you see that even though you wall many of these Dragon's STAB moves, you don't wall their coverage moves, and having them be able to take 3+ turns to kill you is not ideal? Especially since two of them carry Lum and another is immune to electric, so Thunder Wave + Air Slash isn't going to be as effective on them either. I really think that having the ability to do something back to them offensively is important too. I'd like to get QC's opinion on this, though.

And actually, I forgot about Fairy hitting Dark super effectively. It OHKOs Hydreigon easily in that case, as I was just calcing x2.
 
Just posting in support of Halcyon's set:

In Wi-Fi battles so far (not that it has much bearing on the Smogon metagames, but it's something), Bold Togekiss has been great. You just tank things so much better against the more common match-ups (so many people switch in Aegislash, T-tar, Scizor, Excadrill, Mamoswine to name a few). You can troll M-Blaziken so hard Nasty Plotting as it tries to setup with Protect, and then OHKOing it with DG as it fails to OHKO with Flare Blitz. The amount of physical-based threats just outnumbers specially-based ones, at least in the pre-PokeBank meta. It's not like Togekiss is a slouch at taking special hits while uninvested, either...

As for attacking moves:

Code: 
FLYING  FIGHTING  86  164
FAIRY  FIRE  72  146
FAIRY  FLYING  67  154
FLYING  FIRE  54  141

According to this analysis from another thread, unless Togekiss is going for flinchhax (and would therefore want to take Air Slash), the best attack pairing seems to be Fairy + Fire. This covers so many of the new threats: M-Blaziken, M-T-tar, M-Scizor, Aegislash, Excadrill, M-Lucario, M-Garchomp, M-Heracross, M-Pinsir, Goodra (not really a threat but everyones using it for some reason). Again, notice how many of these matchups benefit from a Bold + defensive spread.

edit: Whoops, forgot Fire resists Fairy (but Blaziken still dies to +2 after recoil)
 
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Id prolly mention 4MSS as a con for Togekiss, has so many moves to play with and doesn't have the room for all of them.

QC APPROVED 1/3
 
Tri Attack has always been terrible unless it was STAB Boosted, and even on old Togekiss, you had so many better options for coverage, that those were usually stronger anyway. Any status effect chances are irrelevant, just use Thunder Wave or whatever if you care that much.
 
Halcyon. said:
I think the second set needs some work. The idea that Togekiss has to run Thunder Wave + Air Slash is a little silly, I think. Yes, Thunder Wave is a great option, but I don't think it should be on the set while Dazzling Gleam is only slashed. Togekiss prides itself in being a perfect counter to Dragon types, but the set you have proposed doesn't really deal with them all that well. Second, I think that you should be running a physically defensive spread. Thinking about the actual resistances that Togekiss has, it seems to check Fighting, Bug, Dragon, and Ground types above all else. This leads me to believe that it should capitalize on those resistances and immunities with a physical spread. I mean, think about it. Hydreigon can't touch Togekiss unless it runs Flash Cannon, which can only 2HKO with LO, and 4 SAtk Dazzling Gleam has a >50% chance of OHKOing Hydreigon after SR and LO recoil. I really think that this is a minimal threat, so investing in Defense and having a spread that makes it a more reliable answer to Dragonite and Garchomp is much better than the alternative. I would make the set like this:


<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 4 SAtk / 44 Spe<br />
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
- Dazzling Gleam<br />
- Air Slash<br />
- Roost<br />
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot / Defog</p>

Also, does it even get Defog right now? If so, that's great but I feel like it doesn't.
Click to expand...
it does gets defog except by transferring it from heart gold/soul silver after trading from pearl, diamond or plat after teaching t defog there
 
Definitely agreeing to make the set as Halcyon described. Also, i think that without Thunder Wave there are better attacking options over Air Slash, mainly Flamethrower. For one, Flamethrower allows you to do something productive against Aegislash, which walls you hard otherwise can can either start boosting with SD or hit you hard with Iron Head. In general, it hits all the Steel-types for super effective damage, OHKOing most of them after a Nasty Plot boost, making it a very useful coverage option. So make the set like this:

<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 4 SAtk / 44 Spe<br />
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
- Dazzling Gleam<br />
- Air Slash / Flamethrower<br />
- Roost<br />
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot</p>

Defog is illegal for now so i removed it.
 
ginganinja said:
Id prolly mention 4MSS as a con for Togekiss, has so many moves to play with and doesn't have the room for all of them.

QC APPROVED 1/3
Click to expand...
Awesome! Thanks!

alexwolf said:
Definitely agreeing to make the set as Halcyon described. Also, i think that without Thunder Wave there are better attacking options over Air Slash, mainly Flamethrower. For one, Flamethrower allows you to do something productive against Aegislash, which walls you hard otherwise can can either start boosting with SD or hit you hard with Iron Head. In general, it hits all the Steel-types for super effective damage, OHKOing most of them after a Nasty Plot boost, making it a very useful coverage option. So make the set like this:

<p>Togekiss @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Serene Grace<br />
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 4 SAtk / 44 Spe<br />
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
- Dazzling Gleam<br />
- Air Slash / Flamethrower<br />
- Roost<br />
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot</p>

Defog is illegal for now so i removed it.
Click to expand...

Sounds good, but that's the exact set I have up right now. The only difference is I'm running Fire Blast over Flamethrower because it has a good chance to 2HKO Aegislash after SR.
 
Either merge the first two sets or remove one of them. They are exactly the same thing with some minor EV differences.

Definitely make a 3 attacks + Roost set with Lefties / Life Orb. For now, use an EV spread of 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe @ Modest until we find the optimal EV spread. The moveset should be like this:

- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Aura Sphere / Air Slash
- Roost
 
alexwolf said:
Either merge the first two sets or remove one of them. They are exactly the same thing with some minor EV differences.

Definitely make a 3 attacks + Roost set with Lefties / Life Orb. For now, use an EV spread of 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe @ Modest until we find the optimal EV spread. The moveset should be like this:

- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Aura Sphere / Air Slash
- Roost
Click to expand...
Done and done :) I gave it an EV spread of 248 HP / 216 SpA / 44 Spe for reasons you can see in the set.
 
Why do you have different slashes on the first and second set? For example, why Nasty Plot is slashed first on the first set and second on the second set?
 
Deoxymoron said:
Because the first is a Nasty Plot set and the second is a Physically Defensive set
Click to expand...
And the difference is? I want you to tell me the reason why you slashed Nasty Plot first only on the first set and justifying it by telling me that you named the first set 'Nasty Plot'' doesn't help at all.
 
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