Community Create-A-Team: Heracross (OU)

[Stagnant]

Welcome, to Community Create-A-Team where us Smogonites work together in taking a general idea, whether it be a Pokemon, theme, or what have you, and work with it to create a competitive team. I'm sure most of us have heard every Pokemon has a niche and you should build your team around it in order to fulfill that niche. The overall goal of this is to expand our creative thinking process when it comes to Competitve Pokemon. "Our thinking process is just fine!", I's wish to remind you of the scenario before and after Dugtrio was added to UU. "Broken!" to hardly used... I see that as a justifing reason to say that currently a lot of members have closed minds.

Origin of thread derived from here.

From upper management:

Please stay on topic. If we are discussing the the "Team Style" please refrain from changing the topic.

We are creating a competitive team. So think to win!

Finally, make sure you play test the team once we get that far! Try to eliminate all "theorymon".
While I have not completely figured out the entire process he is a rough outline of the discussion...

Time Frame:

Completed: Pokemon's Set: Flame Orb (Heracross) (M) @ Flame Orb
Completed: Team Style: Hyper-Offense
Currently Discussing: Teammate Pair-Up (Sept 19)
Play Test
Team Reassment
Teammate Pair-Up
Play Test
(Repeat if necisarry)
Write Up 5 Star RMT
Move to next Subject

​

Without, further ado, the first (and hopefully not last) subject for the CCAT is....

Hyper-Offense!
​

Flame Orb (Heracross) (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Facade
- Megahorn/ Night Slash
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
---

Probably most have scene the Heracross thread here in the forums. Well, its time for redemption! Our goal is to show that Heracross still has what it takes to take on the top contenders of OU.

For reference:

Heracross
Typical Movesets and Moves Percentages for August
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Currently Discussing: Team Style: Defensive, Offensive, Balanced? (Sept 12)

​

 

[Stagnant]

To start this off I'd have to say that Heracross would function best as a Choice Bander in the current OU Metagame. He should be able punish most switchins with ease or punish the switcher with Pursuit.

 

[blasphemy1]

A bit hard to justify making an entire team around Heracross when a few of his sets are just straight up outclassed, so let's eliminate a few sets from the selection process:

Choice Scarf-Not necessarily outclassed, but other revenge killers have more uses. Choice Scarf Jirachi has flinchhax, and U-Turn, Fire Punch, resistance to Stealth Rock, Trick, and resistance to Ice Shard / Bullet Punch / Extremespeed. Heatran has those same nice qualities, greater coverage in two moves, and access to Explosion. Rotom-H has Overheat, resistance to Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, Trick, and more useful resistances/STABs for revenge killing. Flygon has great neutral coverage in his two STAB moves, U-Turn, fire moves, resistance to Stealth Rock, and overall more useful resistances. Finally, Latias has higher speed, more useful resistances, more useful movepool for OU revenge killer, and Trick. This set is the least useful.

Choice Band: Scizor has access to U-Turn, which although less powerful than Megahorn, is far more useful. He has Bullet Punch for faster foes, and more useful resistances to switch into(ice, dragon, steel, etc.) Lucario has higher speed, great resistances(not to switch into, but it helps force things out that need to be revenge killed), Extremespeed and Bullet Punch, and Crunch. Not entirely outclassed, but it doesn't cope well in the current metagame, due to choicers nature of throwing around STAB attacks.

Swords Dance: Both Scizor and Lucario do this better, the former due to priority, technician, the latter because of higher speed, priority, etc. Whatever support you use for this could always be given to Lucario or Scizor, without the drawbacks of relying on Thunder Wave or paralysis support(Heal Bell/Aromatherapy is a drawback, as well as Flygon).

Swarm: This set isn't outclassed by anything, since Scizor's main attribute is Technician Bullet Punch, and U-Turn, neither of which is useful for this set. Lucario can run a similar set, but he doesn't have swarm.

Reversal: Outclassed by Lucario in almost every single way, even though Megahorn does a ton to ghost types, sandstorm is a huge problem.

Flame Orb: Not outclassed by anything in OU.

Sleep Talk: Machamp and Hariyama arguably do this better, unless you opt to run Megahorn + Stone Edge

Bulk Up: Again, Machamp and Hariyama does this better, but when you throw in Guts, Machamp can't use DynamicPunch, and Bulk Up + Close Combat is counterproductive.

Overview: The Swarm, Flame Orb, Sleep Talk, and Bulk Up sets are the ones that aren't going to be a lesser Lucario, Scizor, or Machamp. The names of these sets are referenced directly from the Heracross analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heracross

 

[R S E FR LG]

I think that he could also be used as a Flame Orb + Guts user or a Reversal + Salac/Liechi Berry user, as Choice Band is overused and these are more creative (OMG creativity no wai!).

Now that I think about it, he really likes to get hurt. Swarm, Counter, Reversal AND Flail, and Guts, wow.

 

[Mattman324]

Ok, it looks like the team we have needs to be based around Heracross. Now, Hera wants Megahorn, so that is one move down. Now, what else? Rest + Sleep talk with BU COULD work, but you'd be at the hands of Salamence. Flame orb seems to be the only plausable set, but... if we are basing our team around a pokemon who could be getting upwards of 18% (burn and sandstorm), then it won't end well. It LOOKS like a MH + SE + Restalk is the best, but he wouldn't boost his stats...

Sub + Swords Dance + Megahorn + Stone edge with a Salac berry, maybe? I don't know...

EDIT: Love how the average herra carries four attacks. That means people only use him for a choice item, which, as blasphemy1 explained, wouldn't be better than *fill in blank*.

 

[da gold sun]

Although Lucario and the like outclass Heracross as a Swords Dancer or Choice Band, something to consider is the fact that Heracross gets STAB Megahorn, a Bug move not many pokemon get to use. We can play with that idea too.

Also, since we did determine Heracross "likes to get hurt a lot," an idea is to make a Substitute set to abuse Swarm as much as possible. This can work with that Megahorn too.

Personally I like Mattman324's set the best so far, as it can be the center of a team, where as a Scarf set would be used more as a revenger killer support role. A Burn Orb set is a pretty good idea too; with that a good team support would be something like Latias since she resists both Fire and Psychic for Heracross.

 

[Pirika]

I don't know if this could be viable, but I thougth in this set for Heracross:

@Flame Orb
-Close Combat
-Megahorn
-Rest
-Sword Dance/Sleep Talk/Stone Edge

With this set Heracross will always figth with Guts activated and has a way to recover from Flame Orb Damage.

With Aromatherapy support and a Pursuiter to deal with ghosts Hera could deal a lot of damage and have good staying power.

I don't know hoe viable is this set, but I kind of like it.

 

[ARandomDude]

The Bulk Up set (Sub, Bulk Up, Reversal/CC, Stone Edge/Shadow Claw/Megahorn /w Salac) is usable. Most special sweepers fear something from Heracross' arsenal, and you can hit them hard once they come in. On physical sweepers, slowly build up your defense and attack (Heracross has this advantage over Machamp/Hariyama: you actually outrun shit after your Salac boost, and you have some good resistances such as fighting, ground and dark). The rest is pretty obvious? The SD version of this set imo is outclassed by a bunch of stuff.

 

[Justinawe]

I don't know if this could be viable, but I thougth in this set for Heracross:

@Flame Orb
-Close Combat
-Megahorn
-Rest
-Sword Dance/Sleep Talk/Stone Edge

With this set Heracross will always figth with Guts activated and has a way to recover from Flame Orb Damage.

With Aromatherapy support and a Pursuiter to deal with ghosts Hera could deal a lot of damage and have good staying power.

I don't know hoe viable is this set, but I kind of like it.

I definitely agree that SD Flame Orb is the way to go with this Heracross, as after an SD, it takes out Gliscor with Facade. The set I would recommend for this is:

Heracross@Flame Orb
-Close Combat
-Megahorn
-Facade
-Swords Dance

With this set you gain great coverage on any pokemon, taking out things like Gyarados and Gliscor with a Facade after just one SD. I'm not going to go into teammates just yet, as we still have to decide on a set, but please keep this moveset in mind!

 

[E.A.]

I would actually be interested in a Substitute set of some form, similar to the one Heatran runs. The goal is to scout for counters, as well as not get KOed or severely damaged by faster Pokemon's attacks (and in Heracross' case, priority attacks as well.)

The Scarf set would make a rather nice revenge-killer, but I could see a lot of stuff setting up on it (Infernape, Lucario, Gyarados, Salamence to name a few) easier than on other revenge-killers. Okay, some set-up on any revenge-killer inevitable, but Infernape and Heracross x4 resist Megahorn and Stone edge, two staple of any 'Cross moveset, and Gyara / Mence can come in on either STAB, weakned it with intimidate, and proceed to set up.

I personally have used the SD Flame Orb set in the past and have enjoyed it thanks to its sheer power and flexibility of switching in between moves.

tl;dr- I like the SD Flame Orb set and the Substitute set, and Scarf set is more of a liability than it is useful imo.

 

[Justinawe]

Well, since we pretty much all agree that the Heracross set is going to be either Flame Orb or SD, I say we have the style be Bulky Offense. Thoughts?

 

[boredomisbliss]

i ran the bulk up set in ARandomDudes post, but it does not work. since heracross takes 1/8 upon stealth rock (as opposed to 1/4) hes gonna have a really hard time getting to proper reversal range unless hes switches in twice, at which point that ruins the surprise factor, sandstorm is a pain which is why i stuck hera on a rain dance team (btw heracross destroys blissey and celebi just saying)

the RMT is here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58122
it takes advantage of the GSC bug's ability to destroy common rain counters, but they can sweep on their own, and it also halves their fire weakness. i guess you could call it a bluff of a rain dance team or something... lol

but substitute is great on heracross, two possible sets:

(both have max attack max speed adamant)

Heracross@Salac Berry
Substitute
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Shadow Claw

the moveset is simple, like the bulk up but it can still work in sandstorm, swords dance for the raw power, and the other two moves were chosen strictly for coverage. guts can be used since megahorn is not, so switching into x1tspikes is good. salac berry is for enabling the sweep.

the other is like subheatran:

Heracross@Leftovers/
Substitute
Close Combat
Megahorn
Stone Edge/Earthquake

switch into something that will run, like latias ^^ sub on the switch and smash away, close combat is primary STAB, and handles steels expecting a dark or bug move. Megahorn is also for STAB, though in my opinion running quakeedge+CC is the best. Earthquake or stone edge handle fire switchins, earthquake hits infernape for SE (though CC will hurt like a mofo anyways) and stone edge is the only move that hits flyings


and scarf heracross is such a beast revenge killer... if you really want jolly can outrun a friggin scarftran, adamant is still capable of outrunning jolteon or +1 adamant gyarados...

 

[Justinawe]

We're going to probably have to make a poll or something with this, as there are going to be a lot of ideas, and we need to have a majority of votes. This is a Community Team Builder after all! xD

 

[boredomisbliss]

IMO having heracross as a choice user would take the emphasis off him, it would have to be bulky offense since thats what heracross is, though this team would probably want something that benefits from heracross's counters being weakened (SDzor/SDluc) OR a team that removes its counters so it can sweep (gliscor) in which case it would need paralysis support since heracross is pretty slow for a sweeper...

 

[AoRyuha]

Hmmm, of the ideas poisted in this thread, I like the Subtitute set in Mattman's post best, and Pirika's set with constant Guts use second best (with Sleep Talk, or Stone Edge if the team provides Aromatherapy/Heal Bell support).

Meanwhile, I've been experimenting with the ResTalk/Bulk Up/Megahorn on the official analysis myself. A bit undependable, but so much fun.

 

[xWOLFYx]

I don't think a substitute set would be useful for Heracross. Using sub, you are sacrificing coverage and even if you get down to Swarm + Salac range, you're still priority bait. Also, this set will need Pursuit support since the common revenge killer, scarf Rotom will still outspeed and kill, while being immune to CC and resisting Megahorn.

If you use Sub / CC / Megahorn / Night Slash, you can hit ghosts, but Gyara, Salamence, Gliscor, and Zapdos will give you problems.

If you use Sub / CC / Megahorn / Stone Edge, then bulky ghosts (Rotom-A was what, #6 in usage last month?) will beat you.

Sub / CC / Megahorn / Swords Dance @ Salac Berry might let you get past the Ghosts if you can pull the setup off correctly, but you're still easily revenge killed with Bullet Punch or ExSpeed.

IMO, there is no reason to use a SD or Sub set as Lucario pulls both of these off more successfully.

I think it would be more interesting to take advantage of Hera's respectable defenses (80/75/95) and run a Sleep Talk set. Either Rest Talk / Bulk Up / Megahorn or Rest Talk / CC / Megahorn.

Another interesting option would be to build a Trick Room team around Hera, not unlike Pirika's Uber team.

The problem with Hera is, you have to decide if you want to be walled by Flying types or Ghosts and then use your other 5 members to handle them. For instance, sets lacking Stone Edge are going to be setup bait for Gyarados and Salamence, so you will want a reliable check to each.

 

[boredomisbliss]

im questioning the choice of megahorn on this set, overall its a good STAB move but it really doesnt add much in the way of coverage, CC is 15% more accurate, and if megahorn is dropped then guts may be used over swarm and then you dont get completely screwed by WoW

 

[chenman333]

Flame Orb Heracross with a team based around paralysis (Body Slam Jirachi, T-Wave, etc.) sounds fairly decent, but it really does need everything to be fairly slow. I think SwarmCross with some Magnezone and Pursuit support is fairly good as well, except it can't beat Gliscor.

 

[The Trick Room]

Perhaps we could make it a Trick Room team. I could lend my expertise to the cause, and Heracross truly could be a dominate replacement for Marowak in such a team.

 

[Stagnant]

I opened a poll and unfortunately cannot edit in Substitute set.

As of now I'm curious to see RestTalk Hera on a Defensive oriented team. So you know where my vote went to.

 

[The Trick Room]

I voted Swarm, as it would be most useful in the Trick Room set =) haha

 

[Lee]

What's with the Trick Room talk? Heracross has a very respectable 85 base Speed - that means he hits an absolute minimum (- nature, 0 Spe IV) of 157 meaning he is still 'faster' than tons of shit like Swampert, Porygon2, Blissey and Machamp. Not to mention that he is STILL vulnerable to Scizor's Bullet Punch. Not worth the hassle imo. But perhaps more importantly, Trick Room teams are generally poor and I assume this project wants to make their team as competitive as possible.

Anyway with regards to the thread, I'm personally happy to let this run its course provided it's managed well. Exclamation Point, a good first step would be to lay some ground rules and establish some deadlines for decisions to be made etc...Don't let this thread lose direction and deteriorate into one of those pointless, circlejerk discussions.

Also, I'd like to request that everybody who contributes to this project has read the recent Heracross thread here - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60856. Many players have identified the problems that they find when using Heracross and these are exactly the problems you need to be addressing in this team.

 

[ARandomDude]

I think the swords dance set with CC, Facade, and Megahorn is shows the most promise. Now, before you go "LYK WTF GHOSTS RAPE DIS GUYZ SHITZ", here's some calcs (all assuming Adamant +2 and Guts , no swarm)

Megahorn vs 0/0 Gengar (x4 resist): 90.80% - 106.90%
Megahorn vs 0/0 Mismagius (x4 resist): 90.80% - 106.90%
Megahorn vs 252/168+ Rotom (x2 resist): 75.66% - 89.14%
Megahorn vs 252/228+ Dusknoir (x2 resist): 63.27% - 74.49%

The x4 resists are OHKOd after SR due to their fragile nature. The bulkier ghosts have to be at optimal health to survive, although Rotom can outrun and kill.

 

[The Trick Room]

What's with the Trick Room talk? Heracross has a very respectable 85 base Speed - that means he hits an absolute minimum (- nature, 0 Spe IV) of 157 meaning he is still 'faster' than tons of shit like Swampert, Porygon2, Blissey and Machamp. Not to mention that he is STILL vulnerable to Scizor's Bullet Punch. Not worth the hassle imo. But perhaps more importantly, Trick Room teams are generally poor and I assume this project wants to make their team as competitive as possible.

Anyway with regards to the thread, I'm personally happy to let this run its course provided it's managed well. Exclamation Point, a good first step would be to lay some ground rules and establish some deadlines for decisions to be made etc...Don't let this thread lose direction and deteriorate into one of those pointless, circlejerk discussions.

Oops, I was recalling a base 65 speed, but I was wrong o.0 I just wanted to see a successful Trick Room team be built lol, I have only had a mediocre one and it has taken me a few months of work with my brother.

 

[Wharz0r]

On what kinf od stuff would this set up? I mean Rest/Bulk up/Sleep talk/ Attack move... On what exactly this thing sets up on? Cuz he is kind of frail and switching into DMeteors and surf, tbolts and the likes wont be fun

So...If you could tell me...yea please and thanks...