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Resource Union Street - Casual Discussion Thread

thought i'd run this by here again, since readability system are hard to design privately. two raid-related questions first

how clear is this example set of order headers? (Pulled from a Raid draft with a mechanic that designates one or more Heroes.)

Ref Choice (to PR)Ref Choice (to any non-Hero)Random Action (to random Hero)

If you read this format to mean Action Selection (to Target Selection Method), then the format is working as I would like. Since we're trying to reduce how many actions occur in a Raid round, we have more room in the header for this information.

I also want to try to solicit ideas around, probably, 3-4 "core" action modifiers for Raid opponents, as discussed before.

Using Kyogre as an example, one column could read like this (Throwing in lots of different modifiers for examples' sake):

Fast Hydro Pump x2​
Piercing Origin Pulse +10​
Blizzard x2​
Icy Wind +15​

This is to say, adding lots of modifier prefixes to Raid actions seems to result in an unreadable mess. Once we have something that doesn't, I can start drafting up new action sets for the existing Raids, along with Arena polish, like the Loyal Three got, for those that need it.

I know we want at least a modifier for "Ignore Raiders' effects while performing this move", and one for "This action is performed at an increased Speed". Other modifiers that have come up have seemed niche and probably can just be Raid-specific instead.


while I'm here, I have a few thoughts on safari as well. it's overall working very well mechanically—it's just a little easy, which is an issue for ref motivation.
  • i've decided i don't love the incentives created by tying mood to HP thresholds. i will probably change it to "captures attempted" on that wild pokemon.
    • making it based on rounds passing incentivizes protect stall.
    • basing it on captures attempted presents a kind of fake choice (to throw nothing) that doesn't advance the raid. we might make capture orders mandatory if we do this change.
  • the first mood leaves some strange options open for referees to try to maneuver to a different mood threshold, incentivizing the referee to spam protect, rest, and substitute. i'd prefer to switch safari to "half-start" rules rather than encourage stall-based play. this doesn't really do much to difficulty, but its on my radar.

  • i may take away start-of-round capture attempts, though this would fill up almost all of our current "difficulty budget", as it were.

  • a lot of simple mood rules, like "can't use attacks", are unusable in practice because of the tools available to players. forcing players to taunt in the first round of each trek, or exclusively bring gholdengo and hatterene, isn't very engaging.

  • i like expanding the wild mons' coverage as their mood worsens. it highlights the wild mons' typing well. the one issue with this is that you can bring, say, mimikyu to the dragon habitat to wall dragon stab + normal moves entirely.

  • i would really, really prefer to avoid making moods more complex, if i can.

that's all for today, i think. i didn't want the upcoming adjustments to be a total surprise.
 
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I do not like the idea of capture orders being mandatory.
If capture orders go to "end of round only", I'd want capture order subs or else capturing effectively becomes only possible every other round
 
how soon after the previous JC work is too soon for another JC touch-up. since people seem mystified that the previous work didn't unclog all queues

there's a line of thinking where events could cost JC to enter (doesn't make them very event-like, does it), and another where more regular content could destroy JC.

there's another system in the works where advanced facilities (above the "big four" regular ones) charge JC and their own entry requirement, but that work only somewhat interacts with JC.

(fort let someone else reply first this time)
 
wanted to talk about raids

i think the ambitious departure of raids from traditional gameplay is more than welcome, and the resulting facility has been fitted together quite nicely. that said, i do have some feedback on how the facility could be further improved.

i was talking yesterday on discord about how many pokemon are flexible, and can be played in a ton of different ways depending on the situation. in raids that doesn't really matter. the aggressor is in charge of clicking a damage button every turn and pretty much nothing else, you can almost never get away with spending time setting up with ag due to enrage timers. protector and supporter are in charge of the following things, in that order:

1. increasing the damage of the aggressor
2. mitigating harm to the aggressor, including taking hits, setting up conditions to reduce damage and block status, etc
3. mitigating harm to themselves and each other

the aggressor, and pokemon accessibility

anyway first of all, choice band/specs being as strong as they are on aggressor has had some unfortunate effects in my opinion. item-reliant strategies and mons who are powerful for reasons besides stats (sig item users, lo sheer force, skill link/technician multihit guys, solar power mons, razor claw/razor fang strategies, high-power moves like gigaton hammer) are pushed out of the meta by guys that can get a free +5 or more boost to all attacks with band/specs and have no drawback. attack limit strats do exist but raid boast rewards are worse than realgam ones.

this also has a pretty depressing effect of making certain pokemon completely unsuitable for all raids. take for instance :drapion: drapion. now i don't think anyone would call this mon bad, they have a lot of good qualities, but 7 attack isn't high enough to get into the good bracket of band users. i wouldn't even be entirely comfortable bringing them to spore-verlord despite the relative type advantage cause you just keep doing like 60 damage unboosted to everything and probably die to toxicity, and forget about any level 2/3/pinnacle raid.

so raids' response to this is to just put suboptimal aggressors in the protector or supporter slot, but nearly all pokemon are extremely boring here. with drapion for instance you click screech + leer once, donate swords dances or swaggers to aggressor, then just chill out with literally nothing else to do. even this is vaguely playable with a supporter that actually contributes safeguard/screens/heal pulse/etc and a sufficiently explosive aggressor, but it doesn't feel remotely as deep or interactive as say a realgam or safari would.

vocations

:malicious armor: blackguard and :wise glasses: tutor are not only the best vocations but are also the most interesting, as they add ways for the protector and supporter to interface with the aggressor. i think intentions to get other vocations "in line with" these two are definitely the right way to take the facility. item-restoring ideas like :room service: butler and :assault vest: commando put consumables (mostly gems) in a decent enough place in the ecosystem, where they give a huge boost but require constant maintenance via either using turns on recycle/trick/bestow or waiting for butler to refresh. :loaded dice: gambler is hilarious and would be cool if stat stages weren't something that teammates trivially maximized at the beginning of the raid. there may still be some use for stored power/power trip shenanigans. i don't think the other vocations are very interesting for the most part.

colossi

:groudon::kyogre: colossi is my favorite raid for a few reasons. i like the increasing "caps" on damage cause they encourage you to get creative with boosting over time, i like the two targets both working towards a wincon cause they allow for a wider range of viable aggressors without necessarily decreasing difficulty, i like the huge non-random spread moves that force you to actually protect the aggressor in a meaningful way, i like the wide assortment of non-random fucked up moves that the non-primals have access to that demand counterplay.

i was actually spurred to make this post by the introduction of "piercing" above. i really like the once per game z-moves in colossi, which still reward you for building sturdy setups but also punish overly brittle ideas, forcing you to find a stable middle ground and spend resources such as protection as needed. but when piercing attacks are a constant threat, i worry that damage-mitigating efforts can get de-emphasized in favor of just heal spamming, and that overly fragile aggressors can get forcibly pushed out of the game. i could be very wrong on this though.

exp raids

these can be neatly sorted into two categories: :amoonguss::okidogi::tinkaton: type-locked raids, and :guzzlord::shedinja::silvally: type-flexible raids.

:okidogi: i think type-flexible raids are far more interesting than type-locked ones. with type-locked raids you want a specific type of mon that can do a specific thing and the raid hinges on whether your mon is able to do that thing for long enough. role shuffle is unplayable unless you have a monotype team. and unless you have the right type of pokemon with good enough offenses, approaching the raid at all is unadvisable. this was worst during old loyal three where i estimate about 50 fully evolved purchasable mons were able to clear it as aggressor (maybe that number could go up to 100 with all vocations + hand-picked supporters). like i signed up with ground memory silvally and clearly realized it was balanced around cb self-status ursaluna with a mist + safeguard teammate or some shit. new loyal three seems forgiving enough but the poor distribution on mist makes it a bit annoying to plan for.

:amoonguss::tinkaton: i haven't looked at spore-verlord or turf war too much but as far as i can tell both seem to be a matter of bringing a fire type guy (some other types also work into spore-verlord) and doing enough damage before you die to enrage. spore-verlord toedscruel is lowkey fucked up with new mycelium might, i've seen many a player get tripped up by that. i really don't like the taunt/encore from the turf war minions, taunt is annoying to avoid and silos you into bringing a very self-sufficient ag like novax's darm-g, encore rewards you for wanting to click the same button again and again. ultimately not much to say on these two as i haven't personally played or planned for them.

:guzzlord: anyway the interesting thing with type-flexible raids is that any strong aggressor can take care of them but sometimes you'll need specific strategies in order to make it work. with guzzlord the strategy in question is very obvious, i would call it easily the most accessible raid which is good for a level 1 10 exp one. it's kind of a weird raid though, guzzlord can fuck with your guys via knock off, defense boosting, and double ag ingest but this is all random so the difficulty can vary wildly. surviving til the end of the raid is also almost never an issue, the enrage feels like the only actual threat. i do wish the boss did a bit more damage and had a bit less hp.

:shedinja: ninjas is pretty awesome, the students and shedinja can mess with you in different ways, protectors and supporters are encouraged to use attacks from time to time to hit ranges, role shuffle is a great time, it's total chaos, it's a raid where you actually need to use your substitutions. i would play the hell out of this if it was 10 exp.

:silvally: i was labbing this out a little with naganadel/celesteela/pheromosa for the zmoves. i am not actually sure how this raid is meant to be beaten exactly. optimistically (choice item + setup from teammate + can always hit super effectively), naga or phero can just about 8-9hko, which is at least seven sets of multi-attack + fang + special move coming at celesteela, with potential heal block and all sorts of disgusting memory moves additionally threatened. if this wasn't bad enough, the aggressor is under fire by fucking thunder wave and roar. this raid is both extremely random and extremely unforgiving--even if silvally constantly rolls the weakest moves and memories possible, there will still be problems. i do not know how you beat this with any 3 pokemon outside of somehow outright cheesing it.

reffing

mostly i just don't like reffing mons and moves that are insignificant by design. tinkatuff and corvisquire from turf war are a good example of this, ninjask is tolerable as they usually die r1 anyway (we love ninjask), guzzlord's damage also feels relatively insignificant. to go back to the above suggestions, i like the x2, +10, etc as it condenses multiple rounds of actions into one.

alright that's all i have to say for now
 
damn girl. at least let me finish the patch with the raid changes before you spill all of my raid changes.

i want to say some nonsense no one cares about like "we're aware of all of these issues; that's why we're making changes to raids". i should have acted faster so that people would trust that i see this issues.
 
Re: vocations, I think Sorcerer is very situational but in the right situation can be very strong. I don't see much reason to take anything else on your aggressor in Silvally raid, for example, because you need to change attacks repeatedly if you want to hit it SE anyway. It's also what I'm planning to use on my aggressor when I run Colossi, because Sorcerer almost completely nullifies the HP scaling as the match goes on: it adds 9 damage per round, and the enemies increase HP by 20 every 2 rounds. Honestly I'm a big fan of that kind of vocation, where it's a really good option into the right raids and not a good option into others.
 
I have some (scattered) thoughts on the recent update.

I think the combination of Pastel Veil and Healer might be too strong for the Raid Frontier. With two Healer users, a player can heal 40 HP per Pokemon per step to their entire team, which trivializes many Raids.

I strongly disagree with the decision to make Seasonal Events JC-negative, as I think it's inappropriate to impose a tax on the casual, community- and teamwork-oriented "bonus" content that emphasizes the social aspect of BBP by encouraging players to interact with each other. The other economy changes seem very effective at stymying "problematic" net positive JC flow, so I think it would be perfectly fine to retract the JC cost for playing in a Seasonal Event and leave them as JC-neutral activities.

The Battle Tree and the prospect of Advanced Facilities seem interesting, and I look forward to seeing the Boasts created for them!

My impression on Bide is that it was slightly overnerfed: either of the two changes made would have individually sufficed. I actually think any nerf was unnecessary; learning to sub for Bide might be the harshest lesson of BBP, and the indefinite duration might complicate counterplay, but the Move isn't too difficult to avoid or outpace unless one is piloting some kind of Pokemon that miraculously lacks all of Substitute, Major Status, Disable, Imprison, Torment, DoT options, Phazing, something productive to do while its foe is Biding (e.g. hazards, stage-boosting Moves, etc.), and a Ghost typing.

I understand that the Safari Zone is still an easy Facility, but I don't think that the Galarian Birds are strong enough to warrant imposing an additional penalty on players attempting to earn them besides those incurred from Boasting. Also, the Unwelcome Guest Boast is free when aiming for Galarian Moltres, as it is entirely superseded by Moltres's Wayfinder effect, and I don't think this was intentional.

Because Leftovers keeps being tweaked, I'll say that I think it was perfect as a pseudo-Signature Item for Gluttony users; those Pokemon had statlines, movepools, and typings perfectly tailored for passive recovery, so 12 HP of healing per round was an excellent way to complement their strengths and encourage Item diversity in the metagame. The current iteration's 10 HP-per-round healing is nice, but I suspect that it'll be nerfed because of its dramatically increased strength in Raids, as have been so many other game elements (e.g. we just lost Oran Berry + Harvest for likely similar reasons).

-------
On a different note, I'd like to ask any capable of answering the question how some of the broader changes of this update will affect my ongoing Safari Zone run. I'm accustomed to game elements such as Items, Abilities, or Conditions changing significantly from the time I sign up for a Facility to its conclusion, as I'm a slow poster, but these are exceptional circumstances because both the Facility I challenged and the Boast system I used when signing up for the run were majorly revised before my run ended. I expect that I won't retroactively receive Galarian Articuno as a Wayfinder, but I don't know which Behavior system will be in effect this round, and I don't know whether the new Bravado system's tiers and prizes will apply to my challenge.
 
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P2X7 said:
On a different note, I'd like to ask any capable of answering the question how some of the broader changes of this update will affect my ongoing Safari Zone run. I'm accustomed to game elements such as Items, Abilities, or Conditions changing significantly from the time I sign up for a Facility to its conclusion, as I'm a slow poster, but these are exceptional circumstances because both the Facility I challenged and the Boast system I used when signing up for the run were majorly revised before my run ended. I expect that I won't retroactively receive Galarian Articuno as a Wayfinder, but I don't know which Behavior system will be in effect this round, and I don't know whether the new Bravado system's tiers and prizes will apply to my challenge.
Click to expand...
I believe that:
- you will not receive Articuno-Galar, obviously
- you will be using the new Behaviour system for all rounds started after the patch
- the old boast tiers will be in effect
- I don't know if you can pick a new reward or not
 
Keriel said:
I believe that:
- you will not receive Articuno-Galar, obviously
- you will be using the new Behaviour system for all rounds started after the patch
- the old boast tiers will be in effect
- I don't know if you can pick a new reward or not
Click to expand...

I don't know why it would be obvious that Articuno-Galar wouldn't be obtainable here. If I recall correctly the boasting thread simply listed the prize as an unlisted Pokémon (or a Lo-EXP Record) before it was changed to the current Wayfinder system. I know I'd be peeved if midway through my run I was told that I was not receiving the Pokémon anymore.
 
i had explicitly told hyjack (ayush's ref) to award ayush an articuno-galar Lv1 if he completed his six-point old boast. the same would apply to any six-point boast for safari targeting the "as yet unrevealed Pokemon."

that's on me for leaving a placeholder there after launch. i should have expected that taking those on to try to force my hand would have been popular.

i do not know who invested keriel with moderator authority to make reward rulings on our behalf.
 
lou I don't know why "I believe we were told" comes off as me trying to make a ruling, even if I was wrong.
how am I supposed to label something as conjecture if "I believe" isn't clear enough?
 
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Thanks for answering my Safari questions, folks. I'll move forward under the assumptions that new behavior will activate the round after that for which I must currently order (as it started before the patch was posted) and that the Boast reward at stake is a Master Ball/Galarian Moltres (as my challenge scored 10 Bravado + Level).
 
tl;dr: go ahead—it's what i would have ruled if i was asked "what do i do with my boasts?"—but i'm discontent with the level of presumption on display. nothing i do here is "owed", and it wrankled me to read "i will be taking this reward now, thanks".

i'm now forced to come up with a forum-facing way of issuing sitution-specific exceptions where players can see, so that i can point to them when this sort of issue comes up again.

***

edit: as it would turn out, every single user involved read "Unrevealed" as meaning "you can reveal this by reaching it". we'll have to keep that in mind for its future applications.

within, find my frustration at my miscommunication; previously vented at the general readerbase of a public forum, as one does with such things.
i had been intended ayush's reward as a one-time courtesy for ayush, because i had previously answered his questions about unrevealed boast rewards. i had said that the rewards would not be ready soon—and then the rewards were, in fact, ready soon. "wasting" the run that i had previously encouraged him to undertake.

the lesson from this boast debacle is that I can't allow myself the luxury of leaving things for later, if any player can see them. because i hadn't plastered "NOT YET RELEASED. DO NOT CHASE THIS." all over the unrevealed pokemon, players took it as a challenge to try to force me to reveal the unrevealed pokemon.

frankly, it felt like players wanted to "get" me for my error (the error of putting any sort kf placeholder in the shop, that is); so i stopped other work to frantically rush out the safari boast rewards in time for this last patch. i do get that some users took "unrevealed" as a way if saying, "go and find out", but that was only after said players explained their thinking.

giving the associated pokemon for these mistaken runs is an admission of fault on my part, and an attempt at ameliorating the embarrassment of it. it was a solution sculpted for a specific user after dialogue with that user.

that's a long way of saying, please do not assume courtesy in the future without asking. i worry that i'm going to have to halt any future one-time courtesies, if players will use those instances as precedent to assign themselves exceptions, exemptions, and other courtesies in differing contexts. that additional step of asking each time is important to me.

edit: the solution for such things will have to involve communication from the mod or team member issuing the courtesy. i could easily have posted ayush's exception into the boasting thread, for example, to make it clear to all users that he took his run at my urging; and that i was exempting him because i had told him something i had changed my mind on.
 
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Now, whether or not they should remain in the queue is something I would like the community's opinion on. What is more clear for the flow of approvals: keeping them in or taking them out? Please don't respond in this thread; instead, please give your opinion in Union Street or on discord.
Click to expand...

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prize-claiming-thread-gen-9.3711540/post-10047212

I'd say to keep them on the queue, like "Person [Approver]". The biggest worry with queues stuff is people getting lost - if it's not tagged, there's a real possibility that the approver might forget about it, leading to a big mess. It's not likely, but it's better not to risk it, no? And I don't feel like having an extra person in the queue tagged "already checked, skip this one approvers" would be that disruptive compared to the mess it prevents
 
gonna try out transcribing event teasers from Discord into here


The Inevitable Victory of Stella Magna (2024)

Stella-Magna-x2.png

"Hello, darlings! Don't work yourselves into a tizzy, now—you'll be at my feet, cursing your own weakness and ineptitude, before too much longer!"

"What? The Pike Queen? She's the least of your worries. Here, I, Stella Magna, am the center of your, and everyone's, universe! I accept forfeits in advance."

***​

Due to the prizing available, you'll want to have one or more of the following Pokemon ready:
:decidueye:Decidueye, :incineroar:Incineroar, :primarina:Primarina, :meowscarada:Meowscarada, :skeledirge:Skeledirge, :quaquaval:Quaquaval​
​
(and six others, but they'd spoil the event)
 
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Hey all! Would there be any interest in a calculator for BBP? I’m in the process of making one, though rudimentary. It would take all the major calcs said in the Rulebook, and also roll accuracy and effect chance. I’m testing the waters before going too hard into it. It wouldn’t have everything, like just call the stat stages 0 if the other Mon has Unaware, but the current calculator is using the calculation (((BAP + Power Modifiers + (Attack Rank - Defense Rank) + Stab + Critical Bonus + (Power Bonus - Power Penalties)) * Type Effectiveness Multiplier + Stat Stage Difference + Additional Damage) * Final Damage Multiplier) * Spread Move Penalty. This all checks out, correct? It also has code for the corresponding Screen being active, although this might be scrapped if it proves to hard to add. It also factors in accuracy bonuses, evasion bonuses, and critical bonuses. This might be tricky to make, but give me your thoughts! It’s being coded on Scratch, FYI, as it is quite easy to add variables and make inputs.
 
FuecocoBoi said:
What do you mean by this?
Click to expand...
I've already built a fully functioning calculator! It reduces reffing time by at least 40%. And it automatically formats your post so you don't need to type in alignment several times per post! It also automatically checks for STAB! It's super simple and easy to use, all you do is type in the name of each move and the calculator does the rest!
 
Rextreff said:
I've already built a fully functioning calculator! It reduces reffing time by at least 40%. And it automatically formats your post so you don't need to type in alignment several times per post! It also automatically checks for STAB! It's super simple and easy to use, all you do is type in the name of each move and the calculator does the rest!
Click to expand...
Where is the link! Saves me a ton of work!
 
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