if a pokemon has 3 abilities it is impossible to replace one of them, it simply cannot be done, I've consulted the patterns
EDIT: this is a joke, I'm being sarcastic, lmao
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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EDIT: this is a joke, I'm being sarcastic, lmao
I think you are mistaking what patterns are...
Expecially since ability changes have been done in the past
They generally don't though. Until Shiftry and Empoleon in SV the only times they'd ever replaced an existing ability was either when the replaced ability was a hidden ability that was never actually available or as a deliberate nerf with Gengar. They generally seem to prefer not to do that, same reason they don't radically change stats.
I guess on topic, Terrain Setting Abilities are important for their gameplay functions but they're horrendously boring in terms of flavor, especially the way they're currently distributed. It's sort of just emphasizing them as elementals which isn't really interesting given the Tapus took most of that design space. I've thought a lot about if Florges came with innate Grassy Surge, for instance. The raw damage boost alone usually ends up having such a huge opportunity cost that dropping the Terrain Surges is completely unreasonable. (This also somewhat applies to weather setting abilities)
I think Silver is overrated as a rival, at least in the mainline games. For one, the reasoning behind his rivalry against the player is weak, as the reason is that he thinks the player is weak and doesn't deserve the starter Pokémon... even though he's no different since he stole the starter from Professor Elm. Why did he even need to do that? Couldn't he just ask Professor Elm for it?
Despite being a thief who had stolen the starter from Prof Elm and Sneasel from Cianwood City, he didn't feel like a threat because neither the police nor the player was making efforts to turn him in. I will say his Haunter and Kadabra are tough mons if you are unprepared against them.
However, he doesn't evolve them before Post-Game, and he doesn't even evolve his Sneasel even after post-game. He changes his ways thanks to Lance and even evolves his Golbat into Crobat (which requires a friendship evolution), although, unfortunately, it's done off-screen and quickly.
That being said, I can also give Silver a pass for a few reasons. Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal was made in 1996, in an era where games weren't exactly known for their stories, and that no doubt extended to Pokémon as well. He also has a reason behind his hatred for the weak, as he viewed Team Rocket (including Giovanni) as weak because they had to battle as a team to compensate for their individual weaknesses, although this is only mentioned in a HGSS exclusive event. Granted, the remakes could have added more depth in Silver, but unfortunately, I think Pokémon remakes like this tend to be the exact story as their predecessors, with minimal or no changes. If it helps, in Pokémon Masters, Silver shows his growth by leaving his chase to catch Ho-Oh to help Ethan out to defeat Team Break, which earns Ho-Oh's offer to be his partner, showing that Silver is willing to help his friends out over searching for power.
I also find the common argument that mean/jerk rivals should come back because they’re always better than nice rivals a bit disengenuous. I can understand if the nice rivals were ones like the Kalos rivals, May/Brendan and Wally from RSE. However, the difference is that they don't have much characterization in terms of who or what they are, the reasoning behind their behavior and personalities, their journey and the hurdles they go through and their overall arc.
Take Hau from SM & USUM as a "nice rival"; he is depicted as a friendly rival who likes to have fun. However, Hau is then confronted by Gladion, who dislikes his easygoing nature and lack of seriousness in battles, initially scaring him. He learnt the hard way when he was too weak to defeat Plumeria, leaving Lillie to be captured by Team Skull. He then realizes that while having fun is important, taking battles seriously is equally important to help others, hence his serious face in USUM compared to his jolly faces from previous battles. Bianca has a similar arc. Initially, she was overjoyed at becoming a Pokémon Trainer, but she became dismayed by events such as her Musharna being kidnapped and being the weakest of the trio (Hilbert/Hilda and Cheren), which N alludes to that not everyone can be strong. However, she then found joy in researching Pokémon with the help of Professor Juniper, leading her to become a Pokémon assistant in BW2.
There are also nice rivals like Hop, Nemona, and Kieran, who are quite interesting and have their own arcs as well.
In short, I don't think the characters' tropes themselves are important; rather, it's the characterization of them in terms of struggles, who and what shaped them, their arc, and its execution.
Despite being a thief who had stolen the starter from Prof Elm and Sneasel from Cianwood City, he didn't feel like a threat because neither the police nor the player was making efforts to turn him in. I will say his Haunter and Kadabra are tough mons if you are unprepared against them.
However, he doesn't evolve them before Post-Game, and he doesn't even evolve his Sneasel even after post-game. He changes his ways thanks to Lance and even evolves his Golbat into Crobat (which requires a friendship evolution), although, unfortunately, it's done off-screen and quickly.
That being said, I can also give Silver a pass for a few reasons. Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal was made in 1996, in an era where games weren't exactly known for their stories, and that no doubt extended to Pokémon as well. He also has a reason behind his hatred for the weak, as he viewed Team Rocket (including Giovanni) as weak because they had to battle as a team to compensate for their individual weaknesses, although this is only mentioned in a HGSS exclusive event. Granted, the remakes could have added more depth in Silver, but unfortunately, I think Pokémon remakes like this tend to be the exact story as their predecessors, with minimal or no changes. If it helps, in Pokémon Masters, Silver shows his growth by leaving his chase to catch Ho-Oh to help Ethan out to defeat Team Break, which earns Ho-Oh's offer to be his partner, showing that Silver is willing to help his friends out over searching for power.
I also find the common argument that mean/jerk rivals should come back because they’re always better than nice rivals a bit disengenuous. I can understand if the nice rivals were ones like the Kalos rivals, May/Brendan and Wally from RSE. However, the difference is that they don't have much characterization in terms of who or what they are, the reasoning behind their behavior and personalities, their journey and the hurdles they go through and their overall arc.
Take Hau from SM & USUM as a "nice rival"; he is depicted as a friendly rival who likes to have fun. However, Hau is then confronted by Gladion, who dislikes his easygoing nature and lack of seriousness in battles, initially scaring him. He learnt the hard way when he was too weak to defeat Plumeria, leaving Lillie to be captured by Team Skull. He then realizes that while having fun is important, taking battles seriously is equally important to help others, hence his serious face in USUM compared to his jolly faces from previous battles. Bianca has a similar arc. Initially, she was overjoyed at becoming a Pokémon Trainer, but she became dismayed by events such as her Musharna being kidnapped and being the weakest of the trio (Hilbert/Hilda and Cheren), which N alludes to that not everyone can be strong. However, she then found joy in researching Pokémon with the help of Professor Juniper, leading her to become a Pokémon assistant in BW2.
There are also nice rivals like Hop, Nemona, and Kieran, who are quite interesting and have their own arcs as well.
In short, I don't think the characters' tropes themselves are important; rather, it's the characterization of them in terms of struggles, who and what shaped them, their arc, and its execution.
I mean, he's not exactly the "walk in and ask politely" type, he's more the "I take what I want because that's the way of the world" type. And it's not as if he's got a good reason for asking for one of the starters - he probably correctly assumed that Elm would never have said yes.
And that would probably be his reasoning: the player was just given a rare, quality Pokemon for free despite having no experience with Pokemon yet. In fairness, he's far from the only person who decides someone's a weakling on sight: numerous evil team grunts in various games, as well as Blue in GSC, instantly size the player up as being weak despite having no reason to. Well, the grunts are just assholes, and in Blue's case it may just be as simple as an attempt to intimidate the player before battle, as he knows full well you've beaten all of Johto's gyms and the Elite Four. Silver even keeps on calling the player weak after losing to them multiple times, so it's almost like it's his go-to insult.
Yeah, this is a genuine failing of the story imo - that one police officer takes his name and then just disappears forever. And Johto even has policemen as enemy NPCs! Then again they never even get involved when Team Rocket occupies an entire city, so...
Interestingly, in the originals the security guard in Goldenrod's Radio Tower has the sprite of a Black Belt, whereas in the remakes he's a policeman. Always liked that, it's little things like that which make Johto feel a bit more old-timey. Rather than hiring actual corporate security they've just hired a local martial artist. Him being a policeman in the remakes just makes the police's absence even starker.
That's because the postgame stretches on for quite some time. His story isn't done once you beat the Elite Four, he's encountered in Kanto subsequently.
Though I will say his Victory Road team is particularly underwhelming for where it's at, his starter not even being level 40 is ridiculous.
Silver is oddly the only NPC who never evolves his Pokemon fully in rematches when there's opportunity to do so; Magneton is understandable, as there's no way to evolve it in HGSS (Jasmine evolves hers for the rematches but then she's literally been to Sinnoh) but even though the Razor Claw is perfectly available in-game, Silver doesn't evolve his Sneasel. Maybe it shows that he's still got a way to go yet, idk.
Acccccccccccctually, the remakes if anything made Silver worse, and they did add a fair few things (sorry, I can never resist linking to my own post on this)
May/Brendan often get passed off as underwhelming and they absolutely are, but there's a lot of little details about them I appreciate. They're written with enough difference that they don't just feel like a palette-swap: Brendan is categorically much more of an asshole than May ever is, and generally just gives the impression that he sees the player as in need of support or assistance. As an example, when the player gets given the National Dex in Emerald, May credits the player for their efforts ("Eheheh! It's so cool that even my Pokédex is getting updated! It's because you went out and caught so many Pokémon, <player>!") whereas Brendan basically attempts to pass it off as his own accomplishment ("I went out all over Hoenn and checked out Pokémon. You can thank me for getting the National Mode Pokédex. Yep, you're lucky, <player>!")
They also generally don't state outright that they're dismayed by the player besting them, but there's a lot of context to suggest it's absolutely eating them up - Birch is surprised that the two of you aren't travelling as a pair, possibly suggesting that he got the impression his child would be guiding you on your journey rather than leaving you to your own devices, and there's an intriguing line when the player speaks to Scott on Route 119 right after beating their rival ("You just beat that Trainer, didn't you? It was pretty obvious that you did. The kid looked really upset with a face all red from anger..."). I always thought it was a surprisingly subtle - and subtly mature - message to put into a video game: sometimes you have to put a brave face on things.
While they're not really rivals in any meaningful sense, the player character not selected in DPP always felt to me like a do-over of RSE's rival in some ways. They're always scurrying around after Professor Rowan and basically characterised as this kind of hopeless butt monkey who can't catch a break: they describe their own Pokedex progress as hopeless, they're not a competent battler, and even their own younger sister flat-out tells you she wants you to do better than them. Much like RSE's rival, they're never seen to fully evolve their starter in the original games, which in that instance feels wholly more believeable since they never have ambitions of being a trainer at all.
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gen 2 graphics wise is the best generation
Politely asking for things is for weak liberal beta males, or something.
a crime is a crime give that teenage boy the chair
I'm not sure if this was the intention but it's interesting to see how they made Silver a bit nicer in the remake. These are their losing quotes at the Pokemon League, GS and HGSS:
"…Darn… I still can't win… I… I have to think more about my Pokémon… Humph! Try not to lose!"
"…Oh, no… I still can't win after all that training… I…I have to believe more in my Pokémon… …No big deal. Sorry to have got in the way. Don't forget to rest your Pokémon before you challenge the Champion!"
"…Darn… I still can't win… I… I have to think more about my Pokémon… Humph! Try not to lose!"
"…Oh, no… I still can't win after all that training… I…I have to believe more in my Pokémon… …No big deal. Sorry to have got in the way. Don't forget to rest your Pokémon before you challenge the Champion!"
I've been a massive Silver critic for years so I'll be brief in saying I share a lot of the criticism of his characterization here. His personality being "I only value strength and look down on you as a weakling" doesn't really work as an intimidation factor or obstacle when your battle wins are necessary to proceed, and the loss that triggers his change is to Lance (off-screen), who he would have much more reason to believe he's not strong enough to challenge compared to you, a kid who started with the same Pokemon situation as him (same day starter from Elm's Lab). This attitude makes significantly more sense with rivals like Silver's Manga incarnation or Paul from the DPPt Anime, who are shown getting results, have some idea of their limits (Paul doesn't change his outlook from losing to Cynthia, compared to Brandon who actively lectures him and he has specific personal hang-ups with beating), and actually put their money where their mouth is against those they badmouth, including the MC.
I find it funny you list Kieran as a "nice" rival, because while he is friendly by the resolution of the story, the rivalry is VERY much a hostile one and I think emphasizes the point you made: the rivals being nice or mean is irrelevant compared to having meat on their bones and a compelling arc to frame their attitude. The reason rivals like the Gen 3 opposite PC, the XY cabal, Hau, and Hop let me down so much is because they feel so 1-note if that, and compared to other straightforward rivals like Nemona, there's not enough to build a fun or relatable character around even mentally, so they feel like gameplay checkboxes.
The reason I go to bat for Kieran is because the game finally found a way to reconcile the "Power/Strength hungry rival everyone fears" aspect with the "Player always has to win for story because game is for 9 year olds" requirement, by making his losses and your main character syndrome the REASON he's a nasty rival over time, and takes it out on everyone else that he CAN beat in battle. It also helps that Kieran's gameplay handling actually reflects this well, both in his rapid team progression/swapping like ORAS Post-Game Wally, and the simple fact that his peak battle as Blueberry League Champion is legitimately challenging by main game Pokemon standards with actual strategies or synergy behind them (Politoed supporting a Dragonite that does well into Ogerpon, Debuff Doubles support like Incineroar and Dual Screens Grimmsnarl to back up a nuclear Porygon-Z).
It's not a master class of game design, but it's a solid deconstruction and reconstruction of Pokemon-specific tropes that I feel a lot of people ask to see but don't really discuss the details or major appeal of beyond the sum-up of "jerk/nice rival."
They basically rewrote his dialogue from the ground up and he's much nicer basically from the encounter at Mt Moon onwards.
The intention seems to have been to point to the idea that he and the player have become friends - of a sort. It's a grudging and uneasy relationship to be sure and he remains prickly and defensive right till the end, but he's framed in a much more positive light all round. It's hard to imagine GSC-Silver joining the player as their partner in a tag battle (had they existed then)
Ngl that is pretty funny.
Fr if there was an actual reason Silver was designed like this (even if it's a stretch), maybe it was because part of the 90s era.
I think in the West it was known for how edgy the heroes were which ironically made them more ridiculous. Like take Captain America drawn by Rob Liefield, who looks definitely out of proportion from a anatomically perspective. Not sure if it impacted the East tho.
That's fair, I think my statement might have come across my misleading. When I said nice rivals in refering to Kieran, I meant on how he started as a nervous kid who genuinely wanted to be friends with the player, but he turned out worse when he realises the player and his family were hiding the truth about Ogerpon. As you mentioned, it was a legitimate reason to have a rivalry against the player which is shown in his difficult double battle.
Thankfully he did get better.
The "asshole rival" discourse made me think of something else: one of the things I really like about the Johto games is that they're the only ones to have asshole Gym Leaders who don't do their jobs properly.
Obviously Kanto has Giovanni, but his villainousness doesn't particularly get in the way of him being Viridian's Leader (when he's there, obviously - but multiple other gym leaders close their gyms because they're away for various reasons, so that's not unique to him). By which I mean, he still battles you and willingly hands over a badge in good faith. This is in contrast, to say, Whitney and Clair: the latter dissolves into a tantrum and just straight-up forgets she's meant to hand over a badge, while Clair strings the player along by giving them additional tasks to validate her own ego. Then there's also Blue, who it's implied is just too flaky to do the job properly; one NPC mentions that his frequent absences cause problems for trainers looking to challenge him.
Interestingly Johto's gym leaders kind of showcase the entire spectrum, thinking about it. Morty and Jasmine are both shown to be pretty devoted to their roles, while Falkner is implied to be relatively new at the job and (though stated by an NPC in Violet City to be a fine trainer who's running the gym well and seems respected by his underlings) relies a little too much on his father's legacy instead of forging his own identity. Then Chuck is someone basically incapable of moderation: in GSC he's spent too much time buffing himself rather than his Pokemon, but in HGSS he goes overboard in correcting his shortcomings because he quite literally follows through on his pledge to train 24 hours a day. Pryce and Bugsy are more in the midground of gym leaders who seem to be capable of doing the job in a relatively sane fashion: Bugsy is an expert academic while Pryce is old and highly experienced.
It's one of the reasons I like the Unova games so much, too - they also have a fairly interesting and diverse spread of character types as gym leaders, and the "second job" aspect did a lot to make them them feel more rounded out. How well it worked varies, but I appreciate that they made the effort. It's like how FRLG's Fame Checker feature tried to flesh out the Kanto leaders and Elite Four - there wasn't really a lot to work with for some of them unless you entirely changed up the game's story, so those few extra details can go a long way towards building your impression of a character.
Obviously Kanto has Giovanni, but his villainousness doesn't particularly get in the way of him being Viridian's Leader (when he's there, obviously - but multiple other gym leaders close their gyms because they're away for various reasons, so that's not unique to him). By which I mean, he still battles you and willingly hands over a badge in good faith. This is in contrast, to say, Whitney and Clair: the latter dissolves into a tantrum and just straight-up forgets she's meant to hand over a badge, while Clair strings the player along by giving them additional tasks to validate her own ego. Then there's also Blue, who it's implied is just too flaky to do the job properly; one NPC mentions that his frequent absences cause problems for trainers looking to challenge him.
Interestingly Johto's gym leaders kind of showcase the entire spectrum, thinking about it. Morty and Jasmine are both shown to be pretty devoted to their roles, while Falkner is implied to be relatively new at the job and (though stated by an NPC in Violet City to be a fine trainer who's running the gym well and seems respected by his underlings) relies a little too much on his father's legacy instead of forging his own identity. Then Chuck is someone basically incapable of moderation: in GSC he's spent too much time buffing himself rather than his Pokemon, but in HGSS he goes overboard in correcting his shortcomings because he quite literally follows through on his pledge to train 24 hours a day. Pryce and Bugsy are more in the midground of gym leaders who seem to be capable of doing the job in a relatively sane fashion: Bugsy is an expert academic while Pryce is old and highly experienced.
It's one of the reasons I like the Unova games so much, too - they also have a fairly interesting and diverse spread of character types as gym leaders, and the "second job" aspect did a lot to make them them feel more rounded out. How well it worked varies, but I appreciate that they made the effort. It's like how FRLG's Fame Checker feature tried to flesh out the Kanto leaders and Elite Four - there wasn't really a lot to work with for some of them unless you entirely changed up the game's story, so those few extra details can go a long way towards building your impression of a character.
I think that’s why I find Seed Sower/Sand Spit interesting concepts for an ability (even if they’re badly outclassed). It’s more interesting that you need to actually take a small risk to get those strong effects vs just throwing out a Mon and there you go, one weather/terrain g’night.
Like Arboliva can learn Strength Sap to make it safer to apply Grassy terrain, which is cool.
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As a slightly avid arb fan, I will point out it's not indeed outclassed by grassy surge. Since if Mir or indeedee switch in and hit you, they lose their terrain. Rolla has to go out and back in for that-not feasible at all.
