The Top 10 Titans of the 5th Gen OU Metagame [VOTING OVER]

[canno]

Nominating Kyurem-Black

What effect did Kyurem-Black have on the metagame?


Kyurem-B is a force to be reckoned in the metagame. The first thing that comes to mind when you think of Kyurem-B is that ungodly high base 170 attack. Another thing you will notice is that Kyurem-B has some really nice bulk, sporting 125/100/90, and it's Special Attack is at a very usable 120. The only stat that falls short is its speed, which sits at 95. Still, 95 isn't terribly slow; it lets Kyurem-B outspeed walls. Due to its high bulk and massive fire power, Kyurem-B because a very versatile threat, ranging from a mixed wall breaker to deadly Substitute sets such as SubRoost and SubShuffle to the nuke that is Choice Banded Kyurem. One of Kyurem-Blacks biggest benefits is also its biggest flaw (outside of movepool) - it's typing. While Dragon gives it a ton of resists and a superb STAB, Ice gives it a set of weaknesses that cannot be ignored, although it does grant Kyurem-B a neutrality to Ice, which not a lot of Dragons have. Thanks to its typing, Scizor became even more of a necessity on teams, while strong Fighting-types such as Breloom and Terrakion were called to smack its face. Faster Dragons were also there to smack Kyurem-B in the face. Jirachi and Ferrothorn are one of the few things that can take a hit from this monster. However, despite this Kyurem-B's bulk and fire power make it a huge threat in the metagame.

In what main roles was Kyurem-B used?


At first, Choice Banded Kyurem-B was popular, and it's not hard to see why. Unlike his Dragonic brothers, Kyurem-B has that base 170 attack, and had high natural bulk to make up for its subpar speed. Choice Scarf also arose, since 170 attack doesn't really need a boost, and the scarf helped patch-up its speed. However, even from base 170, being locked into Outrage sucked. So then the Substitute sets became popular, as they made up for his poor speed, plus its high bulk make them pretty easy to keep up against weaker foes. SubShuffler was extremely dangerous if you let your opponent set-up all their hazards, while the SubRoost set seem to live forever, while hitting really hard. Sub+3 Attack was also used, as his mixed coverage isn't terrible. Another set that arose was the mixed sets. Thanks to its titanic 170 attack, it could invest less into it and more into its Special Attack and still hit like a truck. This let it run coverage move to defeat answer to Kyurem-B, such as HP Fire for Ferrothorn and Ice Beam for Landorous-T, while still keeping a strong and powerful physical attack. Apart from the Scarf Set, all of these sets fit into one main role - Wall Breaking. The Choice Band sets did this by breaking things with its 170 attack. Sub sets took advantage of wall's usually low attacking stats to set up and wear them down. Notably, the SubShuffle set would wear down the whole team, especially with hazards. It was so good as wearing things down that it could actually sweep sometimes. The mix set lets it break through walls that it couldn't previously with the CB set. The reason it excels at its job is because of its high bulk and its amazing (mixed) attacking stats, not to mention just enough speed to outpace walls. The closes thing it has to a competitor is Hydreigon, but even then Hydre can't be as strong mixed as Kyurem-B, and its definitely not as bulky.

What caused it to have a significant impact?

As stated again, it's high bulk and 170/120 offenses are what caused it to impact the metagame, not to mention its Dragon-typing. Thanks to these traits, Kyu-B became one of the best wall breakers in the game, as the high bulk let it set-up or take little damage from walls and other weaker pokemon while wearing them down with strong ass attacks. Dragon gives it useful resistances against walls, and although Ice doesn't do it much good, it's typing isn't half bad. For these reasons, pokemon that enjoy walls being removed likes to hang out with Kyurem-B. Magnazone helps remove Steel-types that Kyurem-B does not like, forming a mini version of the infamous DragMag.

How do/did you deal with this Pokemon in OU?


The first thing that comes to mind as a way to deal with Kyurem-B is to outpace it and hit it hard with strong SE STAB, such as any STAB from Terrakion, CB Bullet Punch from Scizor, Specs Secret Sword from Keldeo, Draco Meteor from Lati@s, and more. Scizor is notable for being able to come in on a choice locked Kyu-B and finish it off. However, most of these things cannot come it and take a hit comfortably. For that, you can turn to mons like Jirachi and Ferrothorn, alongside physically defesnive Steel-types. However, they must be wary of what set Kyurem-B is, and you can bet your ass they are going to leave that battle at the very least dented.

The other way to deal with Kyurem-B is hazards. Kyurem-B is weak to SR and affect by Spikes, making it really easy to wear down with hazards. This is notable because it turns 2HKOs on it to OHKOs, such as Scizors Bullet Punch. TSpikes hurt Sub sets a lot, while SR and Spikes ruined the CB set and the Scarf set since they would switch out a lot. Hazards made Kyurem-B a lot easier to handle than it would of been without them.

 

[GCSChris]

I disagree with the stage five rule, and I would say that if a Pokemon was banned quickly, that shows just how good it actually is. Now any Pokemon that was garaunteed to be an uber (deoxys and Darkrai and Skymin) but I would like to nominate Blaziken if we could change this rule.
If not, I call Landorus-I, will edit in later

But before Excadrill things were banned too quickly. Like Shaymin-S was just considered broken, and I wouldn't say it had a significant impact on the meta because it was just broken. Excradrill test and after, those pokemon had an influence on the meta, like Rotom-W, scizor, ferrothorn, poiltoed, etc.

Actually, speaking of Rotom-W, could I reserve him or can we only do one per person?

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Yea TNT ShootinStarmie asked me first so do you mind giving it to him? :/

Updated and finished.

 

[vyomov]

Reserving Jirachi

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

I'm picking Tyranitar please

 

[Gary]

If it were banned that early it probably shows that it was not here long enough to make a very long-lasting impact. Although I guess this could be said about quite a lot of things like Torn-T. I guess we should probably lower the Suspect Test limit to Round 3 and below, as Blaziken could probably be very fair game.

also: can i reserve excadrill?

Yes please do Excadrill lol. I decided to make it only suspect 5 and above because Pokemon below that were either not in the metagame long enough to make an impact or they were so broken to the point that the impact on the tier wasn't very accurate, because it was SO broken to the point that we can't really say that it had a fair impact on the metagame like something like Excadrill. Haunter also agreed with me on this. I am willing to change it if you get enough support though, so I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I nominate: Heatran

What effect did Heatran have on the metagame?

After a great run throughout DPP OU, the future looked bleak for Heatran coming into his second generation; the introduction of Drizzle to a standard metagame and a plethora of powerful fighting types made it seem like Heatran’s days as an OU titan were over. However, that was not the case as despite the meta completely working against Heatran, he rose to become the premier Fire type in OU.

Heatran’s effect on the meta was a very positive one. He was able to give BW OU a solid all around pokemon that could check for several top threats in a metagame filled with bulky Steel types and powerful Dragons. In the short time that Genesect dominated OU, Heatran was known as the best counter for the juggernaut, only fearing U-Turns to Dugtrio and the rare Hidden Power Ground. Heatran was also a very versatile pokemon that was capable of fulfilling nearly any role on any team archetype.

BW was not a good generation for Fire types. Due to the omnipresence of Stealth Rock and rain, the majority of the most powerful fire types reside in UU, while OU only houses very few. Infernape being mediocre and Volcarona requiring immense support, Heatran was one of the only fire types that was viable in OU, giving new life to Sun teams and Fire/Water/Grass cores.

In what main roles was Heatran used?

Where do you start? Heatran could perform numerous roles, from a sturdy tank to a powerful sweeper. Heatran’s offensive set was probably the most popular, hitting hard even without Sun. Offensive Heatran sometimes carried Choice Specs or a Choice Scarf to catch opponents off guard. A Specially Defensive set was almost equally as popular, crippling would-be offensive counters with Burns and Toxics while completely cock blocking sun. At the same time, as much as Heatran went against Sun teams, he also worked in their favor as either as an absurdly powerful Wallbreaker or a Magma Storm trapper to help win weather wars that Sun often struggled with. Since Heatran forced switches a lot, it was also used with a Substitute to hit incoming switches with Super Effective coverage moves.

What caused it to have a significant impact?

Heatran was very anti-meta. He was able to check several top tier OU juggernauts such as Genesect, Jirachi, Celebi, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Venusaur and Magnezone. His ability to change his EVs and movepool around to transform him into almost an entirely different pokemon was unprecedented. He was a good Specs user, a good Scarfer, a good Wall, an annoying Stallmon with Torment, good for support or a ridiculously powerful Wallbreaker under the sun. A never before seen versatility as well as being able to check some of the most prominent threats in OU led to Heatran having a huge impact on the tier.

How do/did you deal with this Pokemon in OU?

unfortunately, Heatran’s 3 weaknesses were among the most common attacking types in OU. This meant that Heatran had to constantly switch from powerful Earthquakes, Scalds, Hydro Pumps, Close Combats and Superpowers. Countering Heatran didn’t depend on the set either so normally hitting it super effectively was enough. Politoed was Heatran’s biggest nightmare, as not only could Politoed KO Heatran with either Hydro Pump or Scald, but Politoed’s rain neutered Heatran’s Fire STAB and exemplified his Water weakness allowing opposing teammates to more easily deal with the living volcano. Heatran had no way to get past Chansey or Blissey and was forced out by Terrakion, Garchomp, Keldeo and both Landorus formes most of the time. Without Roar, Gyarados could escape status and use Heatran to set up a sweep. Finally of course, he was the poster child for Dugtrio trapping, but Heatran had ways to avoid being KOed by Dugtrio if he was careful.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I would like to discuss Kyurem-B. I do not think it should be listen in the top 10.

Kyurem-B is a great Pokemon, but it didn't in any way really influence the metagame. No specific counters rised in usage because of it, and it didn't really centralize the metagame like the other nominees. Scizor, Breloom, and Jirachi (Kyurem-B's best checks) already had great usage in the metagame, and this isn't because of Kyurem-B. Offense was / is the dominant style, and this isn't (solely) because of Kyurem-B. Stall was already un popular thanks to Breloom, Landorus-I, and Genesect, and I just don't think Kyurem-B is as influential as some people are making it out to be. Remember, this thread isn't about what the best Pokemon in the metagame are, and about what had the biggest impact on the OU metagame, and Kyurem-B just isn't that influential to be considered for this list.

 

[Gary]

I would like to discuss Kyurem-B. I do not think it should be listen in the top 10.

Kyurem-B is a great Pokemon, but it didn't in any way really influence the metagame. No specific counters rised in usage because of it, and it didn't really centralize the metagame like the other nominees. Scizor, Breloom, and Jirachi (Kyurem-B's best checks) already had great usage in the metagame, and this isn't because of Kyurem-B. Offense was / is the dominant style, and this isn't (solely) because of Kyurem-B. Stall was already un popular thanks to Breloom, Landorus-I, and Genesect, and I just don't think Kyurem-B is as influential as some people are making it out to be. Remember, this thread isn't about what the best Pokemon in the metagame are, and about what had the biggest impact on the OU metagame, and Kyurem-B just isn't that influential to be considered for this list.

I agree, but I'm putting all Pokemon down in the nominations regardless, as long as its a solid OU Pokemon and has some sort of impact on the metagame (which Kyurem-B has). I do, however, don't think Kyurem-B will end up making the Top 10 anyways, because its impact on the metagame isn't nearly as large as the other nominations. It's just another Dragon-type, which forces people to run Steel-types that people for the most part already ran anyway. It's still a nom though, so I have to at least include it.

Everything will be sorted out in the end anyway, so I don't see a harm in including Kyurem-B as a nomination. People can argue for or against it when the time comes.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I agree, but I'm putting all Pokemon down in the nominations regardless, as long as its a solid OU Pokemon and has some sort of impact on the metagame (which Kyurem-B has). I do, however, don't think Kyurem-B will end up making the Top 10 anyways, because its impact on the metagame isn't nearly as large as the other nominations. It's just another Dragon-type, which forces people to run Steel-types that people for the most part already ran anyway. It's still a nom though, so I have to at least include it.

Everything will be sorted out in the end anyway, so I don't see a harm in including Kyurem-B as a nomination. People can argue for or against it when the time comes.

Ah sorry about that, I thought we could start discussing Pokemon right away. But yeah, I'll wait for you to say it's okay. Thanks for the heads up Gary

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Reserving Breloom

 

[Gary]

Ah sorry about that, I thought we could start discussing Pokemon right away. But yeah, I'll wait for you to say it's okay. Thanks for the heads up Gary

Actually, you are allowed to disagree with a nomination, there's nothing wrong with that. You are still allowed to give your thoughts like you did. I just wanted to remind you that I'm putting all nominations in the OP regardless. Don't be afraid to share your thoughts.

Reserving Scizor, will edit soon.

Don't forget to edit this in please or else I'm letting someone else do it.

 

[Sam]

Nominating Venusaur

What effect did Venusaur have on the metagame?
Quite frankly, Venusaur defined Sun teams (at least after Blaziken was banned). It is 100% a staple on any sun team, and I don't think anyone is really gonna argue that. It shifted some of the metagame away from rain, and really made sun useful. It didn't necessarily 'counter' anything by definition, but it performed well against a plethora of teams. If your team didn't prepare for Venusaur/sun, you were in for a world of hurt.

In what main role was Venusaur used?
Venusaur is used, for the most part, as a special sun sweeper. I say 'for the most part', as it does have the stats and movepool to go mixed, though it's usually in a niche role and most people don't use it. On top of just being a sweeper, though, Venusaur can support the team as well if it opts to run Sleep Powder.

What caused it to have such a significant impact?
Well, first and foremost is it's ability. Chlorophyll is an absolutely amazing ability in the metagame so obsessed with speed-tiers. There are other Chlorophyll sweepers out there though, so what makes Venusaur the best and most metagame defining? Well, it has veyr respectable bulk so it usually doesn't go down in one hit, which is more than what most of the other Chlorophyll sweepers can say. It also has very good typing, allowing it to switch in very easily on most fighting and water type moves. It also has very respectable Special Attack that gets boosted to +2 in the sun with Growth. It's STABs aren't the best on offense but they work well enough to get past most everything. Seriously though, that speed.

How do/did you deal with this pokemon?
The sleep power set with Giga Drain/HP Fire usually gets shut down by most Dragons. However, the Growth + 3 attacks set because very popular as the metagame evolved, allowing Venusaur to beat most non-scarfed Lati@s as well as other Dragons like Dnite and Mence. Nearly every set that doesn't carry Earthquake, however, is stopped cold by Heatran.

 

[PDC]

Nominating Excadrill.

What effect did Excadrill have on the metagame?

Excadrill for the first initial half of the BW1 metagame was the dominant force in Sand offense. It was the perfect sweeper with a great typing, great offensive stats, and an exceptional ability. Excadrill overall was metagame-defining and was on basically every Sand team at the time. It shaped the metagame around it, and for some players it was even more annoying than Garchomp. It was possibly the best offensive Rapid Spinner in the metagame at the time, and it worked perfectly for a large amount of teams. As a sweeper, it was terrifying. Under Sand it received a +2 Speed boost, which allowed it to outrun every Scarfer in the metagame at the time, and almost made Scarfers completely obsolete for the entire start of BW1 post Aldaron's proposal. It had access to a solid enough typing which gave it a resistance to the most common priority user in the game, Scizor's Bullet Punch. It was very strong stat wise, boasting a 135 base attack, which after a Swords Dance completely limited its counters. You had to be exceptionally bulky to defeat Excadrill consistently, and this made things which are basically placed in the shadows nowadays very common. Believe it or not, Gliscor was a front line wall at this time in the metagame. It beat Excadrill, which was enough to give it a spot in the Top 15 Pokemon in usage at the time. Tangrowth gained popularity, Skarmory was seen much more often, although it really could not do anything at all against Excadrill except WhirlWind it away temporarily. Even under other weather's Excadrill was still extremely strong and was still able to put up a good fight thanks to its natural power. After a Swords Dance, a large amount of teams would be in severe trouble if any other their counters were weakened. A powerful STAB base 100 power Earthquake could tear apart a majority of lighter offensive teams, and would make anything scared to switch into it. If it were not for its bad coverage, it would have been banned much sooner. It was too threatening to play a guessing game with, which meant it could either Swords Dance up immediately, or use possibly the most useful move in the game, Rapid Spin.

Outside of Excadrill's sweeping powers, it excelled in utility as well. As mentioned above, Rapid Spin was on Excadrill's sets very often as well. You could Spin hazards away and basically guarantee a clear field the majority of the time. Most anti-spinners were too weak to risk switching into Exca, as Jellicent could not safely or consistently beat Excadrill. This put stall at a huge disadvantage, as the spinning away of their hazards would completely mess up their flow. Excadrill was simply amazing in every aspect, and it carved the metagame from the drills it used to tear everything else up.

In what main roles was Excadrill used?

As explained above, Excadrill was almost always used as a sweeper with Swords Dance in the wings. But it always had the option of using Rapid Spin to turn it into a deadly offensive spinner who could turn roles in the blink of an eye. Excadrill was almost exclusively seen on Sand teams, but it could of course be used outside of them. Because of how Excadrill was always a powerful Spinner in or out of Sand, it could do very well on different weathers as well. Every weather would appreciate something that could Spin against the majority of anti-spinners and give it a very solid offensive force when needed. Swords Dance really was always the flagship move of Excadrill, and although it could be perfectly powerful without it, a set-up sweeper is really where Excadrill shined. Not too much to explain about Excadrill here, as it basically was always doing the same thing, rarely with some alternate sets.

What caused it too have a significant impact?

Sand Rush allowed Excadrill to be extremely fast and speedy, and paired with its great attack stat, Excadrill was a force to be reckoned with. It made Sand the dominant weather / playstyle, and turned the entire metagame into its Sandbox, literally. It was hard to stop, was a great Spinner, was a powerful sweeper, and it had overall amazing attributes. It changed the metagame entirely. It decreased Scizor's Bullet Punch, made Conkelldurr very common along with Azumarill just in order for it to be checked, as Mach Punch and Aqua Jet were the only two priorities that could reliably beat Excadrill, and for a short time made Choice Scarf obsolete. Nothing really had a bigger effect on the metagame aside from Exadrill that wasn't banned very early, and even then it is arguable that aside from Swift Swim Excadrill could have been the most game changing Pokemon for its time. It controlled what was popular and made decent walls amazing, it overall changed the entire landscape of what was viable, and did it for some time. Everything about it was great, and its attributes turned it into easily one of the top 10 deadliest Pokemon ever.

How did you deal with Excadrill in OU?

Although it may not be entirely fair to just blatantly say, "You Didn't", it definitely came close. Excadrill was mainly beaten by Gliscor, Tangrowth, super-effective priority, Bronzong, Slowbro, and speed-tiers between itself. Excadrill was not an easy Pokemon too defeat, and most often it would do a lot of damage to every type of team before fainting. It was too risky to stay in against, even if you were 90% sure it would Rapid Spin instead of Earthquaking, as you can never be too sure what it was carrying. Excadrill could also carry the Air Balloon, which made it so that Pokemon like Gliscor would not be able to beat it 100% of the time, as Rock Slide can, and on many occasions has, beaten Gliscor out by chance thanks to Flinches. It also can carry X-Scissor which made it so that Latios, Reuniclus, Slowbro, and Celebi could not stand a chance against it.

 

[Gary]

Come on guys. If you're going to reserve a Pokemon, please try to get it done. There's like 4 Pokemon that have been reserved almost 24 hours ago, yet they haven't been updated yet. If any of the reservations aren't finished by tomorrow, I'm deleting the posts so other people can reserve them if they want.

Nice Excadrill nom PDC. Very factual.

 

[Gary]

UPDATE:

I've decided to allow people to nominate Thundurus-I, because it was in OU long enough to leave a significant impact on the tier, but it wasn't broken to the point of having an extremely negative impact on the metagame. Feel free to nominate it.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Breloom

What effect did Breloom have on the metagame?

Do you ever see those lines like ''Run x Speed EVs to outspeed jolly breloom'' in analysis? Outspeeding breloom and resisting mach punch is simply crucial if you want to make sure that it doesnt cripple or kill at least 2 pokemon in your team. This is all thanks to spore and base 130 atk with stab bullet seed that makes anything slower than breloom always in danger of being removed from the match in a single turn. Randomly putting sleep talk in something like tornadus or latios is viable simply because breloom exists. Fighting and grass resists like celebi, latias and dragonite often find they way in a team because they are capable of handling breloom assaults.

In what main roles is Breloom used?

Breloom is often used as either a lead or a life orb attacker. In both cases breloom tends to use spore first to delibitate anything in the tier except espeon and lum berry users. This gives breloom a free turn to either setup a swords dance and smash the opposition or cripple the switch in with low sweep which lowers their speed and follow that with bullet seed for the ko. Some breloom use fight gem and focus punch in order to get past the likes of skarmory easily. No other pokemon boasts breloom combination of spore, huge atk and excellent stab combination.

What caused it to have a significant impact?

Breloom was always an annoyance thanks to spore but bw2 gave it technician and suddenly previous weak moves such as mach punch, low sweep and bullet seed receive 50% more power ensuring breloom spot as a top tier threat. Any team that dreams of being succesful must have a way to deal with breloom and his spore shenanigans. Breloom ability to often cripple two member of the opponent team opens rooms for other attackers to pick off the remaining ones or simply so that the mushroom itself can do it.

How do you deal with this Pokemon in OU?

When Sleep Clause inst active them lum berry users that resist breloom moves such as dragonite and salamence are the best choices as they can take anything from breloom and ko it due to its frailty. Once sleep clause has been activated Celebi becomes the best counter due to its great bulk, grass/psychic typing and access to recover ensuring it can switch in on breloom repeteadly. Amoonguss can also sponge hits from breloom and has regenerator to heal itself. Latios and Latias are decent checks but they must becareful of low sweep followed by bullet seed on the switch in. Gengar is immune to mach punch and is faster so it can always revenge kill breloom even after it gets a swords dance boost. Xatu and espeon can reflect spore back and take fighting attacks but bullet seed will destroy them. In general Faster pokemon that resist mach punch such as tornadus and thundurus-t are generally the best way to deal with breloom if you lack defensive counters since its so frail but just be careful to never switch in directly as a well timed low sweep or bullet seed will seal their fates.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Venusaur should not be included in the top 10

So the reason why I don't think Venusaur should be included is that it's only viable on Sun Teams. Venusaur just doesn't have the same impact as the other Pokemon listed, and the metagame didn't really take too much notice of Venusaur. It's check are high in usage not because Venusaur is so good / centralising, they are just generally great Pokemon (Scizor, Latios, Dragonite, Heatran etc).

Another reason I don't think should be listed is that it needs a lot of support to be successful, and when I say a lot I mean a lot. Resorting to using Ninetales just to make Venusaur viable imo is too much of a price to justify Venusaur's postition on this list. Take a look at most of the other nominations. They require little to no support to be successful, and the little support they did have didn't limit their team to Sun.

All in all, Venusaur requires too much support, and doesn't centralise the metagame enough to be in top 10.

 

[Schpoonman]

Just saying, SpDef Heatran was pretty much made by Sun Offense. So listing him is an example why Venusaur SHOULD be top ten.

 

[GCSChris]

I agree with ShootinStarmie, Venusaur may greatly contribute to sun because it's the best chlorophyll sweeper, but I definitely would not call it one of the top 10 most influential pokemon of Gen V. Top 20 maybe, but top 10, definitely not.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Just saying, SpDef Heatran was pretty much made by Sun Offense. So listing him is an example why Venusaur SHOULD be top ten.

Sun Offense, but not Venusaur. Offensive Heatran isn't even 2HKOed by Venusaur's Giga Drain at +6

 

[Halcyon.]

Updated Landorus.

 

[Shuckleking87]

I do not feel like I've played OU enough to write a post, but I'm surprised Deoxys D has not been mentioned yet...

 

[Schpoonman]

Volcarona is posted on page 1.

 

[Gary]

Volcarona is posted on page 1.

Updated Landorus.

Thanks guys.

Scizor, Reuniclus, and Keldeo can now be re-reserved because their previous owners have failed to finish their nominations in 24 hours.