Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[moore's law]

Would like to play sun again, this is a fairly experimental post and I'd like to use Torkoal.

I keep hearing that Ninetales is better thanks to Encore, Healing Wish, and Hatterene support but can't you just compress the roles with torkoal's rapid spin and stealth rock and replace hatt with something else, leaving room for another breaker like Specs Latios or a wish user?

would be interested in trying Latios+Flip Turn on such a team and get insurance against valiant and offensive tusk, too

Those points about torkoal work in theory. In practice:
- Torkoal is a rocks weak spinner (it must hold heat rock, or the effective number of sun turns you get is halved)
- the most effective hazard setters in the tiers are ground types + samurott (there is no shortage of good setters), so if Torkoal doubles in on rocks, it can't keep spinning on them, because it is going to take a huge amount from earth power/EQ/Headlong/Ruination. Even stuff like Tinkaton, which don't threaten damage can knock its heat rock off, which is half the battle won for the team facing sun.

This either means Torkoal is switching into rocks (and maybe spikes) + an attack taking over 25% each time it switches in, limiting you to getting sun up 2 or 3 times in a game.

For these reasons, Torkoal having spin is a bonus but it is not expected to get a spin off. Torkoal sun teams usually have Hatt + another form of removal (Tusk or Corv on top of Torkoal) because they tend to stack multiple mons (Sun setter, Specs Wake, and then one or two misc. options like offensive fire types like moth, protosynthesis breakers, LO chlorophyll sweepers) who get chipped down by hazards.

Keeping all this in mind, Torkoal's benefits come in to play in SV OU much less often than ninetales. Encore is great utility against kingambit, which a huge threat to most weather teams, and Healing wish means ninteales can bring back a near dead Wake/Bolt whatever at the end of the game after the opposing team has been weakened to destroy them.

Having Hatterene on your team acts as a deterrent to most viable hazard setters except for Samurott and (Mold Breaker) Tinkaton. Stuff like Lando and Tusk always need to consider the Hatt switch in and usually have to go for their ground move until Hatt is in KO range or is dead before getting a chance to set rocks up.

IMO Hatt is almost as vital to sun as Walking Wake, and it is very hard to build an effective sun team without either.

 

[Xufactor]

Got permission from Finch to post this here

I recently posted a tournament for a solomod in
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hax-meters-playtest-tournament-20-prize.3767428/

The metagame is similar to OU, with reduced luck. What do OU players think of a metagame like this?

 

[Coin Flip]

I believe a tblast suspect should still be taken into consideration, even though my feelings for the tier are more positive these days.

But Tera Blast Fairy Gambit is definetely nothing new. In fact it’s a set that has been around since 2023.

On the topic of Tera Blast, how do people feel about Tera Blast Ground CM Val?

I think its a very legit set in the current meta, Fairy/Ground/Electric coverage hits a majority of the OU tier for SE damage and has other applications like OHKOing lead Cinderace and Treads.

Care to elaborate why you’re feeling more positive about the tier. Feels like every game comes down to guessing Tera on the dragonite/Kingambit/Kyurem, and praying. Tera blast has added such extreme variance to the tier I’m surprised the council is so complacent about it.

 

[658Greninja]

Care to elaborate why you’re feeling more positive about the tier. Feels like every game comes down to guessing Tera on the dragonite/Kingambit/Kyurem, and praying. Tera blast has added such extreme variance to the tier I’m surprised the council is so complacent about it.

The meta has shown to be incredibly diverse, moreso than any past SV OU metas. It can be evident from WCOP showcasing a variety of different styles like Balance, BO, Offense, HO, Webs, Veil, Stall, Sun, Rain, Sand, etc, contrary to the notion of SV OU being just HO. I would argue that SV OU, with the exception of ADV, is the generation with the most amount of viable threats. Stuff like Hydrapple, Keldeo, Latios, Torn-T, Washtom, Volcanion, Meow, Hoopa-U, Heatran, Dogi, Lokix, and Pex are all strong lower tier picks that do see regular use at high level. This is partially why the meta changes so rapidly, which I consider a double-edged Doublade. It means teams are more likely to be outdated, but it is also a sign that SV OU is unlikely to become stale even after it stops being the current gen, which I cannot say for SS OU which basically has players using the same teams they ran back in 2021 (no offense, gen 8 ou is a perfectly fine meta, but its incredibly vanilla).

Gen 9 is also the best generation to get away with fringe picks like Necrozma, Dudunsparce, Leavanny, Slowbro, and Bellibolt, because of Tera and how amazing teambuilding options like Pecha/Zama/Ogerpon/Gambit/Ting/Dnite are at fulfilling multiple niches, letting you run 1 random shitmon more easily.

I do still have my gripes with the tier though. It can still feel like games are decided off matchups, And Dnite is a glue huffing pos but its a central glue piece in the meta that fixes many bad matchups for a team, so idt removing it would be good for the long-term.

Considering the shitshow I had to endure within the last few years of this tier, it feels surprisingly balanced. There is Kyurem, Wellspring, Gliscor, and Ting-Lu, but I mostly find these guys annoying rather than broken. I’m unsure if there will be another suspect. Tera Blast I’d be on board for removing, but it never gets enough support. There isn’t much outrage within the community to ban something during the 2025 WCOP period compared to previously. It could change as the meta develops, or after another survey. For now, I’m mildly satisfied with the tier.

 

[Coin Flip]

The meta has shown to be incredibly diverse, moreso than any past SV OU metas. It can be evident from WCOP showcasing a variety of different styles like Balance, BO, Offense, HO, Webs, Veil, Stall, Sun, Rain, Sand, etc, contrary to the notion of SV OU being just HO. I would argue that SV OU, with the exception of ADV, is the generation with the most amount of viable threats. Stuff like Hydrapple, Keldeo, Latios, Torn-T, Washtom, Volcanion, Meow, Hoopa-U, Heatran, Dogi, Lokix, and Pex are all strong lower tier picks that do see regular use at high level. This is partially why the meta changes so rapidly, which I consider a double-edged Doublade. It means teams are more likely to be outdated, but it is also a sign that SV OU is unlikely to become stale even after it stops being the current gen, which I cannot say for SS OU which basically has players using the same teams they ran back in 2021 (no offense, gen 8 ou is a perfectly fine meta, but its incredibly vanilla).

Gen 9 is also the best generation to get away with fringe picks like Necrozma, Dudunsparce, Leavanny, Slowbro, and Bellibolt, because of Tera and how amazing teambuilding options like Pecha/Zama/Ogerpon/Gambit/Ting/Dnite are at fulfilling multiple niches, letting you run 1 random shitmon more easily.

I do still have my gripes with the tier though. It can still feel like games are decided off matchups, And Dnite is a glue huffing pos but its a central glue piece in the meta that fixes many bad matchups for a team, so idt removing it would be good for the long-term.

Considering the shitshow I had to endure within the last few years of this tier, it feels surprisingly balanced. There is Kyurem, Wellspring, Gliscor, and Ting-Lu, but I mostly find these guys annoying rather than broken. I’m unsure if there will be another suspect. Tera Blast I’d be on board for removing, but it never gets enough support. There isn’t much outrage within the community to ban something during the 2025 WCOP period compared to previously. It could change as the meta develops, or after another survey. For now, I’m mildly satisfied with the tier.

I’m struggling to find consistency. The variance between Tera blast and the amount of mons that decide their own checks seems overwhelming.It feels like there’s still many games decided by one mistake or one bad para.

 

[UltraSword]

Stall

Gen 9 is also the best generation to get away with fringe picks like Necrozma, Dudunsparce, Leavanny, Slowbro, and Bellibolt, because of Tera and how amazing teambuilding options like Pecha/Zama/Ogerpon/Gambit/Ting/Dnite are at fulfilling multiple niches, letting you run 1 random shitmon more easily.

Honestly as much as I like using fringe/niche picks in ou I think that the sheer volume of "viable" pokemon is too large even for the biggest underdog supporters. I think that for the moment the amount of variety we have is fine, but we are quite close to a line seperating 2 sides. One side has a tier a reasonable amount of niche or viable pokemon (which is the one we are currently on) while the other side has a tier with so many options that it is almost impossible for you to prepare for whatever team your opponent has. I don't think we are THAT close to that seperating line but we are still in a meta where last month Beartic, a pokemon that has never been viable in any generation of ou before, was proven to be a viable pokemon (even if only on rain). While I do personally like tera and I don't think it should be banned, it is the thing to blame for the almost ridiculous amount of viable pokemon in gen 9 ou. Without it, picks like Necrozma and Leavanny would likely be nowhere in sight.

 

[JackRG]

I don’t think gen 9 will end anytime soon so I’m confused why people seem to think there won’t be another suspect. I think the tier is a lot better now, but hardly balanced enough to be complacent tbh (ZA isn't coming out for a few months and we probably won't even know anything else about gen 10 until a few months after that). Point is there is no way we don't get another suspect this gen lol.

which I cannot say for SS OU which basically has players using the same teams they ran back in 2021 (no offense, gen 8 ou is a perfectly fine meta, but its incredibly vanilla).

also this....isn't true? people are making fucking kingler viable in gen 8

 

[Finchinator]

The SV OU tiering council is working on a policy review thread on a tiering topic we have some internal disagreement on. Discussion (within reason) will be open here when that thread goes public later this week, too.

Sorry for my general inactivity lately -- I expect to be back around to full capacity during August when some things slow down. Needless to say: I still care and am following discussion internally and externally. Thanks, have a nice day and stay tuned.

 

[Avira]

The SV OU tiering council is working on a policy review thread on a tiering topic we have some internal disagreement on. Discussion (within reason) will be open here when that thread goes public later this week, too.

Sorry for my general inactivity lately -- I expect to be back around to full capacity during August when some things slow down. Needless to say: I still care and am following discussion internally and externally. Thanks, have a nice day and stay tuned.

You have nothing to apologize for. No previous OU Tier Leader has been as readily transparent and public-facing as you have been. You're doing an outright excellent job as the tier leader here. A large part of why SV OU has gotten to a tolerable place is 'cause of your outstanding leadership.

 

[UltraSword]

The SV OU tiering council is working on a policy review thread on a tiering topic we have some internal disagreement on. Discussion (within reason) will be open here when that thread goes public later this week, too.

Sorry for my general inactivity lately -- I expect to be back around to full capacity during August when some things slow down. Needless to say: I still care and am following discussion internally and externally. Thanks, have a nice day and stay tuned.

Do not apologize you are doing quite well given how insanely hard it must be to manage a generation with as much insanity as this one.

Anyway, speculation time. While I do want to believe that this is going to be either about tera blast or Dragonite, my gut is telling me it is something quite different from either. I wouldn't be surprised if it was about Ogerpon Wellspring to be honest as aside from the 2 topics mentioned above Ogerpon is easily the most discussed topic for a suspect at the moment.

 

[pika pal]

The phrase "Tiering Topic" and a Policy Review thread makes my monkey brain speculate on something a bit broader than a single Pokemon being up for potential review. I'd be curious what it could be in that case, with first thoughts being Tera (Blast) related, a re-evaluation of approach to what makes something suspect worthy, maybe some topics that have managed until now but do show potential future concerns like Signature Ability/Move spam? I will be curious to see what it consists of.

 

[MC Squared]

The SV OU tiering council is working on a policy review thread on a tiering topic we have some internal disagreement on. Discussion (within reason) will be open here when that thread goes public later this week, too.

Sleep and Shed Tail boys keep the hopium rolling :3

Really curious as to what it could be

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

Leng Loi was recently added to council and a page who posted that he'd mentioned to council chat that tera blast is bad and that it should go despite the work that would follow. I'm paraphrasing. He's a champion and his opinion matters. Prior only ausma was pro tera blast ban and other than reporting their YouTube video a couple times didnt appear vocal on it. My guess is there's enough conversation internally to look at it for community

Community support dictating OU isn't real. Roaring Moon was suspected without community support despite a tera blast set being what got it attention

I doubt I'll join the discussion any more than that. It is cheese that we have enough of and should go. And I do want all three of them back straight up and a suspect for the 4th. Good luck champion Leng Loi shake this shit up

 

[FayaWizard]

I’m not going to lie, I’m tired of the Tera Blast haters here acting like they’re being ignored every survey, or shocked that the next tiering action isn’t automatically Tera Blast. The truth is just there hasn’t been enough support so far: looking back at the three most recent surveys, Tera Blast scored a 3, 3.07, and 2.76 on the qualified scores, from oldest to newest. These were not the highest scores on the survey at any point (oldest has Gouging at a 4.2, then Kyurem with a 3.77, then most recent had Gliscor at 3.12).

I get that people don’t like Tera Blast: I’m not the greatest fan of it myself. But can we please stop acting like the council is somehow ignoring the playerbase.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

I’m not going to lie, I’m tired of the Tera Blast haters here acting like they’re being ignored every survey, or shocked that the next tiering action isn’t automatically Tera Blast. The truth is just there hasn’t been enough support so far: looking back at the three most recent surveys, Tera Blast scored a 3, 3.07, and 2.76 on the qualified scores, from oldest to newest. These were not the highest scores on the survey at any point (oldest has Gouging at a 4.2, then Kyurem with a 3.77, then most recent had Gliscor at 3.12).

I get that people don’t like Tera Blast: I’m not the greatest fan of it myself. But can we please stop acting like the council is somehow ignoring the playerbase.

What score did roaring Moon get prior to its suspect jw

Which was with a fairy blast set

Most of the bans follow campaign led by OU leadership that result in those scores. If finch posted about any high level threat and how actually it's now proving to be too much, an immediate survey would get a high 3 by default. I'm not saying he's doing a disservice, he can have an opinion.

Tera blast getting 3's with no leadership support is stronger than kyurem getting 3's.

Not even having the conversation about tera blast after unsurveyed fairy blast roaring Moon became a problem was a tiny bit disrespectful

 

[FayaWizard]

What score did roaring Moon get prior to its suspect jw

Which was with a fairy blast set

Most of the bans follow campaign led by OU leadership that result in those scores. If finch posted about any high level threat and how actually it's now proving to be too much, an immediate survey would get a high 3 by default. I'm not saying he's doing a disservice, he can have an opinion.

Tera blast getting 3's with no leadership support is stronger than kyurem getting 3's.

Not even having the conversation about tera blast after unsurveyed fairy blast roaring Moon became a problem was a tiny bit disrespectful

...you do realize that Roaring Moon wasn't just banned because of its Tera Fairy set, right? And saying "Roaring Moon didn't have a survey score" completely ignores the overwhelming community sentiment behind the mon after it started to pop off in SPL.

And there's always a conversation about Tera Blast: this thread can't seem to let go of it! But the council and the higher level players clearly did not think Tera Blast was broken, and that's why Tera Blast scores took a dip after Roaring Moon's suspect.

Of course Finchinator's posts are going to correlate with a higher score on the survey, he usually makes them in response to a rising threat.

This is frankly a nothing burger of a post that ignores a lot of factors to try and spin a narrative that the Tera Blast movement is being ignored/suppressed by big Smogon, when it's always been present in all the recent surveys and is an ever-present topic of discussion in this community. You can have your disagreements with the council's actions: the community will never be completely behind anything. But stop pretending that just because your personal opinion isn't the community's sentiment, it suddenly means big Smogon is cracking down on the poor Tera Blast detractors.

 

[Dreadfury]

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how to deduce which one of tera blast ghost, flying or fairy the dnite is running.

The answer's actually quite simple: if you see a team that REALLY wants Tusk and Zama out of the way, you can reasonably assume that the DNite is Tera Flying (or rarely Ghost).

And then it's Tera Fire+Scale Shot and you get swept anyway.

The answer is, you can only make educated guesses. The whole package that is DNite fits like a glove on virtually any offensive archetype and there really isn't a solid, universal answer to it. Zama handles most of them, Corv handles most of them, Pecharunt handles most of them, but then you bump into some Tera Ghost or Encore shit for the former two or Tera Ground+Soft Sand for the latter and you're in for a bad time.

 

[Avira]

I'm guessing the Policy Review thread will be about Tera Blast. After the recent update to the tiering framework that qualified in which circumstances are non-Pokemon elements bannable, Tera Blast appears on the surface to be off the table regarding tiering action.

Thus, it's possible a number of members of the SV OU Council believe that Tera Blast is something that is worth acting on in spite of the updated tiering framework and wish to make their case with the most vocal proponents of this being ausma and leng loi.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

I don't think Volcarona should be even remotely up for discussion as a possible unban. I thought it would've maybe been fine in HOME/DLC1 because those metagames were a disaster with or without it, but we've been down that road in DLC2 and there's no reason to believe Volc would be any less toxic in a meta like this.

Solgaleo? Sure, whatever; I think there's an argument to be made about it. But Volc got banned for a very good reason and Tera Blast getting banned doesn't fix that problem completely because Volc has Tera options that AREN'T reliant on Tera Blast and aren't even used offensively in many cases.

dm me if you want to hear my thoughts on volc since apparently this isn't the place to talk about it

Anyway, how do you guys feel about magnezone in OU? since it just got ranked.

 

[JackRG]

The answer's actually quite simple: if you see a team that REALLY wants Tusk and Zama out of the way, you can reasonably assume that the DNite is Tera Flying (or rarely Ghost).

And then it's Tera Fire+Scale Shot and you get swept anyway.

The answer is, you can only make educated guesses. The whole package that is DNite fits like a glove on virtually any offensive archetype and there really isn't a solid, universal answer to it. Zama handles most of them, Corv handles most of them, Pecharunt handles most of them, but then you bump into some Tera Ghost or Encore shit for the former two or Tera Ground+Soft Sand for the latter and you're in for a bad time.

People use non optimal teams all the time, especially with how fast teams become obsolete in this generation. Sure you can deduce what the “best” fit would be but will so many viable sets, you can never assume they are one set, especially with the potential costs of guessing wrong. Theres also the cases where multiple options can handle a threat. Lets use the example of wanting tusk and zama out of the way. That still means it could be fairy, flying, or ghost, 3 sets with multiple permutations and different forms of counterplay. I agree making educated guesses can HELP, but its very easy to be put in these guessing games, and the cost of choosing wrong is often ending the game.

I also believe pinkacross made a video where he laddered with the same team over and over but changed the dnite set in between games, further proving that multiple dnite sets can work on the same team.

 

[leng loi]

Leng Loi was recently added to council and a page who posted that he'd mentioned to council chat that tera blast is bad and that it should go despite the work that would follow. I'm paraphrasing. He's a champion and his opinion matters. Prior only ausma was pro tera blast ban and other than reporting their YouTube video a couple times didnt appear vocal on it. My guess is there's enough conversation internally to look at it for community

Community support dictating OU isn't real. Roaring Moon was suspected without community support despite a tera blast set being what got it attention

I doubt I'll join the discussion any more than that. It is cheese that we have enough of and should go. And I do want all three of them back straight up and a suspect for the 4th. Good luck champion Leng Loi shake this shit up

Beyond being an unhinged post that appears to be advocating for some kind of pokemon autocracy or at the very least claiming council doesn't listen to people,

*She