Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[EV]

I meant Magic Coat, not Bounce.

Deoxys is not a replacement for Thundurus by the way. The sets I recommended are anti-lead or hazard support. Thundurus can't beat Mega Aerodactyl unless for some reason it manages to outspeed it. I don't see Choice Scarf Thundurus becoming common anytime soon, except that would be a nice way to revenge Keldeo and grab momentum with Volt Switch ...

 

[Pagoose]

What's your standard Mega Aerodactyl set?

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head -> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 96 Def / 160 Spe or 182 Atk / 96 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Roost
- Taunt / Earthquake

The first set of EVs allow Mega Aero to outspeed Mega Pidgeot. The second allows regular Aerodactyl to outspeed Thundurus prior to mega evolving. If you want to outspeed Mega Pidgeot prior to mega evolving you have to drop Adamant, which isn't advised because of what this set does. Ideally, with 96 Def EVs you can survive LO FakeSpeed from Adamant Diggersby after Stealth Rock, Roost up or just OHKO with Dragon Ascent. The EVs also allow you to switch into Diggersby's Knock Off and live a follow up Espeed also with Stealth Rock up.

When I first started using mega aerodactyl, before it got really popular, I was using a set of head smash, brave bird, taunt and roost. I had enough speed evs to outspeed thundurus in base form, also outspeeding normal aero once mega'd, max attack and the rest thrown in defense so it could check diggersby better. I then changed taunt to earthquake, because being able to kill aegislash, and heatran without suiciding were more important than being able to beat the non-existent skarmory. Finally, because m-aero started to become way more popular, and my team gets mauled by it, I switched to a spread of max max attack and speed with jolly nature, as most people only run adamant. This is the set I run now and I think is the best set for this meta (I'm lying keep using adamant plz), but it does depend on your team. If you have an aegislash or something, you can feel free to use the defensive spread.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Head Smash
- Roost
- Earthquake

 

[DinaIsha]

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Trait: Rock Head
108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Roost/Taunt

This set immediately came to mind when I faced a Dragon Ascent Salamence just a while ago. The damage it did was unbelievable. So I though what it if something with more Attack, still retaining STAB and something whose Ability will bolster the already outrageous damage output used it? Here are the calcs:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 208-246 (62.2 - 73.6%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws burned Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%)

Also thanks to the little HP investments, it can take Fake Out + ESpeeds and then Roost off the damage. Taunt is to shut down all other Stall mons not mentioned above. Roost is really the better option to help with recovery after Head Smash. Particularly effective on Stall teams that needs a Stallbreaker.

The set I posted in the C&U Sets thread. You can take from HP and dump more into Speed to deal with specific threats.

 

[Pagoose]

The set I posted in the C&U Sets thread. You can take from HP and dump more into Speed to deal with specific threats.

What is C&U?

 

[skies]

What is C&U?

Creative & Underrated.

Also, I've been using Mega Aerodactyl for a long time, here's my post on it awhile back:

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Diamond Storm
- Roost
- Crunch
​

What? An Aerodactyl without Head Smash or Brave Bird :O? What is this? Well, I'll tell you what this is. This is sparta a Mega Aerodactyl that aims to take a bulkier approach than the normal set and use its high powered moves to wreak havoc while still retaining bulk. The EV spread allows Mega Aerodactyl to outspeed max Speed Mega Lopunny, while 100 HP and 20 SpD EVs retains good all-around bulk and allows it to live a Focus Blast from Landorus after Stealth Rock; the rest of the EVs are allocated to Attack. Anyways, at this point you may be thinking: "but wait? doesn't Dragon Ascent mitigate the whole "bulk" thing?" and well, actually, no, it does not. This set isn't supposed to be a wall, it's supposed to retain bulk to be able to live hits when it is in and then attack as hard as possible. Diamond Storm aid physical Defense to boot. The only other option is Brave Bird, which is even more detrimental! Crunch, along with Mega Aerodactyl's STAB moves, give the best coverage possible; being only resisted by Klefki, Bisharp, and Mawile, and it hits a total of 415 Pokemon super effectively. You may be thinking here: "why not Earthquake > Crunch?" And my logic behind this is that missing out on three Pokemon is definitely worth the trade off in preventing Air Balloon Aegislash from setting up all over it. Roost keeps it gradually healthy throughout the match as well. People seem to forget that Aerodactyl counters Diggersby as well, even after Stealth Rock, so that's another thing it has going for it. Extremely cool Pokemon, I encourage you to try it out!

[p.s. pls don't ban me for double post, they're unrelated ;_;.]

Still a very nice Pokemon ^_^.

 

[DinaIsha]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-210781793

Ladies and Gents, I present to you 163 Turns STABmons battle!

The stall is real (Although, to be honest, I was pissed at first for having misplayed myself. But it turned out to be quite fun)!

 

[DinaIsha]

I'd like to call for a Suspect on Keldeo.​

The first and foremost reason I call for a suspect is that there are no safe switch-ins into Keldeo except the odd Specially Defensive Gyarados (Which once again, has no other reason to invest in Special Defense than to specifically counter Keldeo). To allow no room for speculation, I will do calcs for the entire S, A+ and A Ranks (And some "resisting" pivots below A Rank):

S Rank

0HKOed on switch. SubCM Keldeo beats FakeSpeeding variants.

Even Specially Defensive variants are 0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation.

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

A+ Rank

Even Specially Defensive variants are 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

252 HP / 0 SDef variant 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

2HKOed. No explanation needed.

OHKOed after SR. No explanation needed.

252 HP / 0 SDef variant 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

A Rank

Outspeeds Keldeo, but beaten by Scarfed variants. Certainly cannot switch into Keldeo.

2HKOed by Specs Secret Sword.

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

Greninjas don't usually run Extrasensory. Beaten by Scarfed variants nonetheless.

Same as Diggersby. Only worse.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. kek.

252 HP variants 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Assault Vest variants 2HKOed by Specs Secret Sword.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

Some pivots below A Rank:

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

3HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Completely beaten by SubCM variants.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Narrowly 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Guaranteed 2HKO after SR.

My main concern is the user of Keldeo needs not predict anything and just click Water Spout and watch things either die or get dented (Secret Sword is necessary only for Chansey), while the opponent has to either predict very correctly or simply lose a Pokemon in the process if he doesn't. This, I think is highly uncompetitive. While not as uncompetitive as King's Rock Cloyster or Chatter cancer, this one deserve the hammer too.

Discuss.

 

[Mr155551]

I kind of agree on a keldeo ban this thing is worse than gen 5 stabmons keldeo and aaa keldeo combined and very little counters check it as seen in the calcs we all know what happened to aaa keldeo so i say ban him

 

[Throbulator36]

#JustUseWaterAbsorbJellicent

Well, I've never seen nor used specs keld but I can see how it might be borked. It'd suck to have to lose my origin pulse keld tho.

 

[skies]

I'd like to call for a Suspect on Keldeo.​

The first and foremost reason I call for a suspect is that there are no safe switch-ins into Keldeo except the odd Specially Defensive Gyarados (Which once again, has no other reason to invest in Special Defense than to specifically counter Keldeo). To allow no room for speculation, I will do calcs for the entire S, A+ and A Ranks (And some "resisting" pivots below A Rank):

S Rank

0HKOed on switch. SubCM Keldeo beats FakeSpeeding variants.

Even Specially Defensive variants are 0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation.

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

A+ Rank

Even Specially Defensive variants are 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

252 HP / 0 SDef variant 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

2HKOed. No explanation needed.

OHKOed after SR. No explanation needed.

252 HP / 0 SDef variant 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

A Rank

Outspeeds Keldeo, but beaten by Scarfed variants. Certainly cannot switch into Keldeo.

2HKOed by Specs Secret Sword.

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

Greninjas don't usually run Extrasensory. Beaten by Scarfed variants nonetheless.

Same as Diggersby. Only worse.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. kek.

252 HP variants 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Assault Vest variants 2HKOed by Specs Secret Sword.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

0HKOed. No explanation needed.

Some pivots below A Rank:

0HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

3HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Completely beaten by SubCM variants.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Narrowly 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Guaranteed 2HKO after SR.

My main concern is the user of Keldeo needs not predict anything and just click Water Spout and watch things either die or get dented (Secret Sword is necessary only for Chansey), while the opponent has to either predict very correctly or simply lose a Pokemon in the process if he doesn't. This, I think is highly uncompetitive. While not as uncompetitive as King's Rock Cloyster or Chatter cancer, this one deserve the hammer too.

Discuss.

How does posting a wall of calcs prove anything? Nonetheless from a Pokemon with 129 SpA and a base 150 power STAB move? Against Pokemon that are weak to it? It doesn't make sense to me. Water Spout is good, sure, but it's so hard to use effectively when it's worn down so quickly. Sure, you can just click Water Spout and things get hurt, but you can just click Hurricane on Landorus and know something will be dent and that doesn't make it broken. For me, the biggest issue is Water Spout's power dropping so easily. After entry hazards, it's already dropped a bit! Origin Pulse is the next best thing, and it's certainly not broken. Keldeo is just really good right now, but it's not broken.

 

[canno]

I'd wait to call Keldeo broken when we get Steam Eruption - that's going to be fun!

Anyways Keldeo has problems with priority - even the SubCM one (which is hugely underrated btw), and the fact that its most common set has problems with being worn down. It' still very good and I can see why someone might think its borked, so I'll play around with the SubCM set a bit more before I make any decision myself. I will say though that Water Spout really does nuke shit, and even stall has troubles switching into a full health Water Spout / potential Secret Sword.

 

[Lcass4919]

Now here's a little anti-meta.

Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Modest Ability
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Trick / Magic Coat (without Specs)
- Filler

This set still needs work, but it's a bit of theorymon to beat common leads. Modest Specs is necessary to OHKO Mega Aero with Psycho Boost, which you handily outspeed in any scenario with 252 Speed. Ice Beam sends Landorus-T packing, even without Specs so long as you're Modest. Trick says lol to Chansey (not a lead I know but it stops Deoxys otherwise.) Sableye, well, a Specs set can't really handle Sableye, which is why you can forgo that item and run Magic Bounce to rebound its Taunt/DV/WOW/etc. Non-Specs sets can also run Taunt and hazards and will keep some Defoggers at bay with the threat of Ice Beam.

Begin rant:
Essentially, Deoxys-Speed is very customizable. I don't think I've ever seen it. We have this tendency in STABmons to focus on what each Pokemon gains rather than what's already good. I often find standard OU sets outperforming common STABmon sets, like Sableye for example. Lately I've been running all standard moves to great success, mostly because DV and PS are so predictable. Heatran is still a good stallbreaker. Tyranitar is still a good Pursuit trapper. Keldeo is still a good Calm Minder. Obviously there are roles that this metagame has that standard OU could only dream about (Diggersby or Landorus-T with flying STAB), but at the same time, there are archetypes that do well in any meta. Deoxys-Speed is versatile and good at what it does. Let's see how good it can be in STABmons now.
/end rant

WAIT. DEOXYS SPEED IS LEGAL IN STABMONS?!?!?!?! MY LORD WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME. ID BE ABUSING THE FUCK OUT OF IT.

 

[EV]

How does posting a wall of calcs prove anything? Nonetheless from a Pokemon with 129 SpA and a base 150 power STAB move? Against Pokemon that are weak to it? It doesn't make sense to me.

Because it 2HKO's its supposed checks?

Water Spout is good, sure, but it's so hard to use effectively when it's worn down so quickly. Sure, you can just click Water Spout and things get hurt, but you can just click Hurricane on Landorus and know something will be dent and that doesn't make it broken. For me, the biggest issue is Water Spout's power dropping so easily. After entry hazards, it's already dropped a bit! Origin Pulse is the next best thing, and it's certainly not broken. Keldeo is just really good right now, but it's not broken.

You use Water Spout at high health and then switch to Origin Pulse. You keep it healthy by passing Wish and Spinning hazards.

I was waffling over Keldeo recently, mostly because there are a lot of Pokemon that resist its STABs (Psychic/Water, Grass/Poison, Grass/Psychic, Water/Flying, Water/Fairy, Water/Ghost, etc) and it's easy to revenge/threaten and gain momentum with U-turn or Volt Switch (Diggersby and Thundurus mainly). However, Sub+Calm Mind scares me. Specs scares me because now its checks have to devote even more to bulk, but can't always cover Defense and Special Defense equally due to the threat of a special or physical hit thanks to Secret Sword's mechanics. Scald is weaker but that burn wears down walls without recovery or forces them to heal prematurely/use Heal Bell, buying Keldeo another turn.

Its coverage is jack yet it still threatens the entire meta with its STAB. Jellicent is the only hard counter, but who uses it?

Another note: If people complain that STABmons is so offensive, why do we fail to ban so many of them? This isn't a call for indiscriminate bans all of the sudden, but I am considering reassembling a council. I thought I could run suspects myself, but I'm thinking a smaller group this time will be more effective.

 

[skies]

Because it 2HKO's its supposed checks?

How are these Pokemon checks? On this list, only maybe Meloetta, Togekiss, Chansey, and the Grass-types at the bottom are checks.

You use Water Spout at high health and then switch to Origin Pulse. You keep it healthy by passing Wish and Spinning hazards.

Yeah, but it's not as easy to spam later in the match is my point. I'm not denying how good it is, it's just not reliable.

I was waffling over Keldeo recently, mostly because there are a lot of Pokemon that resist its STABs (Psychic/Water, Grass/Poison, Grass/Psychic, Water/Flying, Water/Fairy, Water/Ghost, etc) and it's easy to revenge/threaten and gain momentum with U-turn or Volt Switch (Diggersby and Thundurus mainly). However, Sub+Calm Mind scares me. Specs scares me because now its checks have to devote even more to bulk, but can't always cover Defense and Special Defense equally due to the threat of a special or physical hit thanks to Secret Sword's mechanics. Scald is weaker but that burn wears down walls without recovery or forces them to heal prematurely/use Heal Bell, buying Keldeo another turn.

SubCM is scary indeed x_x.

Its coverage is jack yet it still threatens the entire meta with its STAB. Jellicent is the only hard counter, but who uses it?

Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur are as well ;_;. Tentacruel is my latest experiment. We shall see.

 

[EV]

How are these Pokemon checks? On this list, only maybe Meloetta, Togekiss, Chansey, and the Grass-types at the bottom are checks.

My point exactly. Obviously I don't think Diggersby can switch into Keldeo, but there are Pokemon listed on there that are supposed to check it like your examples, which are 2HKO'd.

Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur are as well ;_;. Tentacruel is my latest experiment. We shall see.

All of which aren't very effective outside countering Keldeo. Mega Venu has merits elsewhere and Amoonguss can offer some nice utility also, but Grass is exploited easily, mainly with how popular Ferrothorn, Thundurus, Landorus, and Aerodactyl are right now. The Amoonguss/Bro Regencore was good and could reliably handle Keldeo, but since Thundurus rips it to shreds, it has fallen into disuse.[/quote]

 

[xJownage]

As much as I want it banned, I can't think of a justifyable reason to ban Keldeo besides "it has no switch-ins on most teams". There are actually several ways of beating it that are reliable and consistent, and I find that using checks that put pressure on it are a great way to counter sweep or cause some severe damage to the opponents team. While I am an avid user of Keldeo, I really dislike the opportunity cost just bringing it in causes. Keldeo requires you to have reliable switch-ins to many different mons for the sole purpose of preventing opponents from taking advantage of a revenge kill opportunity. If you build around keldeo, you need it as a part of your team, and the pressure just bringing it out places on your own team can be very costly. Keldeo requires quite a bit of support to function properly, and forces you to build around it, limiting the overall brokenness of the mon.

Saying its anything close to AAA Keldeo is absolutely laughable.

 

[Kit Kasai]

Slowbro/King, Lati@s, Celebi, Jellicent, Alomomola, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Azumarill, Gyarados, Dragonite...

 

[EV]

Slowbro/King, Lati@s, Celebi, Jellicent, Alomomola, Venusaur, Amoonguss, Azumarill, Gyarados, Dragonite...

Don't remember the last time I saw Celebi, Jellicent, Alo (except once on your team), Amoonguss, or Dragonite. Don't even think I've ever seen Dragonite.

And we already know some of those can be 2HKO'd besides Jellicent, so what's the point of this post?

 

[canno]

I wouldn't call Alomomola an answer to Keldeo, seeing as its prime set-up fodder for SubCM. Also it takes a lot from Water Spout / Secret Sword, although if you run 4/252/252+ you can take both

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 207-245 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Water Spout (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 194-228 (41.1 - 48.3%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Keldeo taking rocks damage if I did the math correctly)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Alomomola: 189-223 (40 - 47.2%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile Alo Wishs and then Toxics or whatever, which weakens Water Spout and makes it safer.

full SpDef gets 2HKO'd by Secret Sword

 

[DinaIsha]

Other Special Attackers are walled by Chansey. Even Mixed Attacking Landorus can be dealt with by Physically Defensive Chansey, but Keldeo simply walks all over them. So, to be frank, the calculations do prove something.

Let's not complicate this - name one STABmons-worthy Pokémon that can counter, no check Keldeo. And remember, their role must not be to solely limited to checking Keldeo (Like Jellicent, or Specially Defensive Gyarados). Unlike other suspects where numerous possible sets were taken into account, I give you only two sets: Specs and SubCM.

 

[skies]

Other Special Attackers are walled by Chansey. Even Mixed Attacking Landorus can be dealt with by Physically Defensive Chansey, but Keldeo simply walks all over them. So, to be frank, the calculations do prove something.

No, it shows that the calc against Chansey is the only one that is worthwhile.

Let's not complicate this - name one STABmons-worthy Pokémon that can counter, no check Keldeo. And remember, their role must not be to solely limited to checking Keldeo (Like Jellicent, or Specially Defensive Gyarados). Unlike other suspects where numerous possible sets were taken into account, I give you only two sets: Specs and SubCM.

Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Tentacruel, Azumarill, and Slowking are all counters (or checks, if you count a ton of prior damage) and fulfill other roles. Grass- and Water-types are Keldeo's worst enemy, and they're incredibly easy to come by.

 

[DinaIsha]

No, it shows that the calc against Chansey is the only one that is worthwhile.



Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Tentacruel, Azumarill, and Slowking are all counters (or checks, if you count a ton of prior damage) and fulfill other roles. Grass- and Water-types are Keldeo's worst enemy, and they're incredibly easy to come by.

Tangrowth is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Amoonguss is 3HKOed, but can't deal with SubCM.

Physically Defensive Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout. Specially Defensive Mega Venusaur can't deal with SubCM.

Tentacruel is 3HKOed. And of course, cannot handle SubCM.

Azumarill is 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Slowking is a 3HKOed, but hates Scald from SubCM sets.

Most of these are in the 'useless' calcs, which I assume you've actually looked at before commenting. Only Slowking is the most viable check and I've pretty much never seen Slowking in STABmons except on word's team in one battle. Slowbro is 2HKOed.

 

[Kit Kasai]

Slowking and Azumarill are two counters that are also extremely viable otherwise in STABmons

 

[DinaIsha]

252 HP / 0 SDef variant 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout.

Not only it is not a Counter. It is not even a Check. Unless, you somehow want to run a 252 HP / 252+ SDef Assault Vest set.

 

[Kit Kasai]

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 144-169 (35.9 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Azumarill: 152-179 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

is also a thing