Checks - Breloom and Scarf Keldeo
Counters - Quagsire and Pyukumuku
Counters - Quagsire and Pyukumuku
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Project USUM OU Victim of the Week [Week 49: Dragon Dance Gyarados]
- Thread starter Random Passerby
- Start date
- Status
Voting time is up. The winners for last week are
Checks: Choice Scarf Keldeo(Randomnick ) / Breloom (Martin )
Counters: Quagsire (TURBODERP )/ Mega Slowbro (AGuyWithPants )
New victim: Mega Charizard-Y
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice
- Roost
Mega Charizard Y brings Drought to the battlefield, allowing its Fire STAB to 2HKO virtually everything it hits neutrally, making it very difficult to handle for teams without Chansey and Toxapex. Drought also allows Zard to use Solar Beam to take care of Water-types and Rock-types that switches in on its Fire STAB. Focus Blast allows Charizard to hit Tyranitar and Heatran super effectively. However, if the Zard user has something to handle those (read: Dugtrio) then it can run Hidden Power Ice to hit Zygarde and Garchomp. When discussing checks / counters to this, you should remember that virtually all Zard teams carry Dugtrio and sometimes Tyranitar.
Checks: Choice Scarf Keldeo(Randomnick ) / Breloom (Martin )
Counters: Quagsire (TURBODERP )/ Mega Slowbro (AGuyWithPants )
New victim: Mega Charizard-Y
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice
- Roost
Mega Charizard Y brings Drought to the battlefield, allowing its Fire STAB to 2HKO virtually everything it hits neutrally, making it very difficult to handle for teams without Chansey and Toxapex. Drought also allows Zard to use Solar Beam to take care of Water-types and Rock-types that switches in on its Fire STAB. Focus Blast allows Charizard to hit Tyranitar and Heatran super effectively. However, if the Zard user has something to handle those (read: Dugtrio) then it can run Hidden Power Ice to hit Zygarde and Garchomp. When discussing checks / counters to this, you should remember that virtually all Zard teams carry Dugtrio and sometimes Tyranitar.
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Toxapex @ Shed Shell
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic
Toxapex serves it's role as a Counter to Zard-Y, with its typing that resists Fire Blast and is neutral to Solar Beam, and its natural bulk that allows it to eat up Zard-Y's attacks fairly easily, only being 3HKOed by Zard-Y's nuclear-powered Fire Blasts after Stealth Rock. Toxapex's combination of Recover and Regenerator allows it to come in consistently on Zard-Y's attacks, and either use Scald to wear it down bit by bit, Recover to heal itself up and stall out Sun turns, TSpikes to set up TSpikes (duh), or if it has it, Toxic can be used to cripple Zard-Y and wear it down faster. Shed Shell is in my opinion the best item for Pex at the moment, as it allows Pex to escape potential Dugtrio trappings, which would stop it from checking Zard-Y as easily. As for Tyranitar on some Zard-Y teams, you can't really switch into CB variants very easily, as Stone Edge 2HKOs after Sand damage. But, overall, for most Zard-Y teams, Shed Shell Toxapex does a very good job at countering Zard-Y consistently during the match, which is very valuable for a ton of teams atm.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
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Keldeo-Resolute @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Stone Edge
- Scald
- Focus Blast
Keldeo cant safely switch in on a Charizard due to the threat of Solarbeam but does a good job of killing it after rocks with Scald or ohkoing with stone edge if yoou want to risk it. I like Keldeo against Zard Y because it also isnt threatened by either of Dugtrio or Tyranitar as it can safely kill both of them. If you want to play uber safe, you can use Rockium Z instead of Fightinium Z which works just fine as Secret Sword still does kill Tyranitar but you miss out on Ferrothorn and stuff which is why I prefer Fight Z.
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Pelipper as a counter
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
Once ZardY mega evolves you can just reset the weather and avoid 2HKO even after Rocks from anything, you can just do a lot with Scald then. If Zard come later you can even Stall Sun with Roost and beat it with Scalds. Can't be trapped by Dugtrio and can take Tyranitar's Pursuit.
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- U-turn
- Roost
- Defog
Once ZardY mega evolves you can just reset the weather and avoid 2HKO even after Rocks from anything, you can just do a lot with Scald then. If Zard come later you can even Stall Sun with Roost and beat it with Scalds. Can't be trapped by Dugtrio and can take Tyranitar's Pursuit.
If Pelipper come in later
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 78-92 (24.1 - 28.4%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Rain: 222-264 (74.7 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Zard Y come in later
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper in Sun: 159-187 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO (you can stall out Sun with Roost)
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 150-176 (50.5 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 78-92 (24.1 - 28.4%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Rain: 222-264 (74.7 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Zard Y come in later
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper in Sun: 159-187 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO (you can stall out Sun with Roost)
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 150-176 (50.5 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Mantine as a counter
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 240 HP / 196 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
Mantine can switch into M-Charizard Y, even with Stealth Rock up, take any move from the listed set, heal off the damage with Roost and cripple ZardY with Toxic, stalling it out. If ZardY decides to switch out, Mantine can get a Defog off, fish for a burn with Scald in the incoming Pokémon, or even, if a predicted switch into something like Tangrowth, dish out a Toxic for other partners to take advantage of it. The only thing Mantine fears from M-Charizard Y is the uncommon HP Electric, which is a clean 2HKO. Also, a great perk from Mantine is the unability for Dugtrio to trap it, virtue of its typing, however, being the core Dugtrio-ZardY-Tyranitar so prevalent, this mon can't switch into Tyranitar without being destroyed by Stone Edge, needing a solid Ttar check such as Lando-T or Ferrothorn as partner. But otherwise, this mon does a really solid job countering M-Charizard Y, being a great mon to include in balanced teams.
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 240 HP / 196 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Scald
- Toxic
- Defog
Mantine can switch into M-Charizard Y, even with Stealth Rock up, take any move from the listed set, heal off the damage with Roost and cripple ZardY with Toxic, stalling it out. If ZardY decides to switch out, Mantine can get a Defog off, fish for a burn with Scald in the incoming Pokémon, or even, if a predicted switch into something like Tangrowth, dish out a Toxic for other partners to take advantage of it. The only thing Mantine fears from M-Charizard Y is the uncommon HP Electric, which is a clean 2HKO. Also, a great perk from Mantine is the unability for Dugtrio to trap it, virtue of its typing, however, being the core Dugtrio-ZardY-Tyranitar so prevalent, this mon can't switch into Tyranitar without being destroyed by Stone Edge, needing a solid Ttar check such as Lando-T or Ferrothorn as partner. But otherwise, this mon does a really solid job countering M-Charizard Y, being a great mon to include in balanced teams.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 82-97 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 101-119 (27.2 - 32%) -- 66.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 98-116 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 34.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 50-59 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Electric vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 200-236 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 49-58 (13.2 - 15.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 101-119 (27.2 - 32%) -- 66.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 98-116 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 34.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 50-59 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Electric vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 200-236 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 49-58 (13.2 - 15.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
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Soft counter: Tank Araquanid.
Araquanid @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Liquidation
- Scald
- Leech Life
- Toxic / Power Split
If you've seen my post about this set over in the underdog thread, then you'll know that it was designed from the ground up to take out Zard-Y and Volcarona (well, at least sets without Flying moves, which aren't good anyway). Zard can't 2HKO Ara with any move without SR on the field and Ara easily OHKOs back with Z-Liquidation, even in sun, and those nuclear Water STABs also dissuade Dugtrio and T-Tar from trying to switch in.
Araquanid @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Liquidation
- Scald
- Leech Life
- Toxic / Power Split
If you've seen my post about this set over in the underdog thread, then you'll know that it was designed from the ground up to take out Zard-Y and Volcarona (well, at least sets without Flying moves, which aren't good anyway). Zard can't 2HKO Ara with any move without SR on the field and Ara easily OHKOs back with Z-Liquidation, even in sun, and those nuclear Water STABs also dissuade Dugtrio and T-Tar from trying to switch in.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Water Bubble Araquanid in Sun: 121-144 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 168-196 (56.5 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 312-372 (105 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio in Sun: 232-276 (109.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 252-300 (73.9 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 168-196 (56.5 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 312-372 (105 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio in Sun: 232-276 (109.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 252-300 (73.9 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Check: Tapu Koko
Tapu Koko @ Magnet
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- U-turn
- Hidden Power Ice
- Taunt
Obviously can't switch into a fire move, but outspeeds and OHKO's Charizard-Y. It also U-Turn's out of non-Scarf Dugtrio, as well as all Tyranitar sets.
Tapu Koko @ Magnet
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- U-turn
- Hidden Power Ice
- Taunt
Obviously can't switch into a fire move, but outspeeds and OHKO's Charizard-Y. It also U-Turn's out of non-Scarf Dugtrio, as well as all Tyranitar sets.
Scarf Landorus-T as a check
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Explosion
Not his best set, but still viable
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 580-684 (195.2 - 230.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Explosion
Not his best set, but still viable
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 580-684 (195.2 - 230.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Zygarde as a check
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 212 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Toxic / Extreme Speed
- Substitute
- Coil
If Mega Charizard Y lacks Hidden Power Ice, Zygarde can come in, take low damage, and either click Thousand Arrows or start setting up; even if it has HP Ice, it can live one after taking a Fire Blast with Leftovers recovery. While the more popular offensive variants of Zygarde can also check Zard Y, they are noticeably worse at it.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde in Sun: 120-142 (28.7 - 34%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 236-280 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 118-141 (39.7 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 236-282 (79.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (post-TArrows/Roost)
Purely for comparison:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Sun: 164-193 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 316-376 (88.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 246-291 (82.8 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 212 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Toxic / Extreme Speed
- Substitute
- Coil
If Mega Charizard Y lacks Hidden Power Ice, Zygarde can come in, take low damage, and either click Thousand Arrows or start setting up; even if it has HP Ice, it can live one after taking a Fire Blast with Leftovers recovery. While the more popular offensive variants of Zygarde can also check Zard Y, they are noticeably worse at it.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde in Sun: 120-142 (28.7 - 34%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 236-280 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 118-141 (39.7 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 236-282 (79.4 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (post-TArrows/Roost)
Purely for comparison:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Sun: 164-193 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 316-376 (88.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 246-291 (82.8 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Camerupt as a Check
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 216 HP / 168 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power / Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega in Sun: 150-177 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 146-172 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Charizard-Mega-Y Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 150-178 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 360-428 (121.2 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 340-404 (114.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pretty straight forward, even with three Spikes layers and Stealth Rock up Zard-Y fails to OHKO while Mega Camerupt just throttles Charizard with its Rock coverage. If you're feeling risky you can even switch Mega Camerupt in (without hazards obviously) and have less than 20% chance to be 2HKO'd (factoring Fire Blast's possible misses).
Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 216 HP / 168 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Ancient Power / Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega in Sun: 150-177 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 146-172 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Charizard-Mega-Y Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 150-178 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 360-428 (121.2 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 340-404 (114.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pretty straight forward, even with three Spikes layers and Stealth Rock up Zard-Y fails to OHKO while Mega Camerupt just throttles Charizard with its Rock coverage. If you're feeling risky you can even switch Mega Camerupt in (without hazards obviously) and have less than 20% chance to be 2HKO'd (factoring Fire Blast's possible misses).
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Latios as a check
Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Defog
Latios is one of the few fire resists that can switch in on any of Zard-Y's attacks (given it is at a reasonable amount of health), has reliable recovery and maintains good offensive pressure. Unlike Toxapex, it doesn't get trapped by Dugtrio.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-169 (48.1 - 56.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 226-267 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A Scarf set with dual STAB, Trick and Recover is also something I've been experimenting with
Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Defog
Latios is one of the few fire resists that can switch in on any of Zard-Y's attacks (given it is at a reasonable amount of health), has reliable recovery and maintains good offensive pressure. Unlike Toxapex, it doesn't get trapped by Dugtrio.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-169 (48.1 - 56.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 192-226 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 226-267 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A Scarf set with dual STAB, Trick and Recover is also something I've been experimenting with
I'm really surprised that noone has taken Chansey yet, especially considering that it is literally mentioned in the round-opener post. However, given the fact that this is a project where it is looking at explicitly dealing with this Pokemon rather than overall effectiveness as a Pokemon, I think I've got a slightly more appropriate response in the context of beating a Pokemon which is generally paired with Duggy:
Blissey @ Shed Shell
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe OR 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Hear me out on this one.
For the most part, utility Blissey is just a worse Chansey. However, given how common it is for Mega Charizard Y to be paired with Dugtrio, Blissey has one key thing over its prevo: it can run Shed Shell viably. While this isn't a realistic option on stall teams, where Chansey is also the key check to a number of physical threats including CB Zygarde, on more balanced and/or offensive builds this can be extremely useful due to the sheer pressure that Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona are able to exert when paired alongside Dugtrio to remove Chansey and Toxapex. As a result, it poses as a more consistent counter to Mega Charizard Y than Chansey does.
In terms of consistency as a special wall, it doesn't really drop that much consistency by comparison due to still completely shutting special attackers down, with the first of the two listed EV spreads taking them on almost as PhysDef Eviolite Chansey, but it is ultimately easier to pressure with Pursuit users like Tyranitar, Weavile etc. so keep that in mind. Its key niche over Mantine in the role of "Zard/Volca wall that isn't trapped by Duggy" comes from its utility options combined with being able to check certain things over it; a lot of Chansey's niches over Mantine carry over to Blissey.
PhysDef also counters both Zard Y and Volcarona, being a little easier for strong special attackers to pressure as a result but making it so that Pursuit doesn't land quite as hard of a BTFO on it. That said, it is still easier to pressure with Pursuit than Chansey is, so bear that in mind.
Blissey @ Shed Shell
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe OR 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock / Heal Bell / Healing Wish
Hear me out on this one.
For the most part, utility Blissey is just a worse Chansey. However, given how common it is for Mega Charizard Y to be paired with Dugtrio, Blissey has one key thing over its prevo: it can run Shed Shell viably. While this isn't a realistic option on stall teams, where Chansey is also the key check to a number of physical threats including CB Zygarde, on more balanced and/or offensive builds this can be extremely useful due to the sheer pressure that Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona are able to exert when paired alongside Dugtrio to remove Chansey and Toxapex. As a result, it poses as a more consistent counter to Mega Charizard Y than Chansey does.
In terms of consistency as a special wall, it doesn't really drop that much consistency by comparison due to still completely shutting special attackers down, with the first of the two listed EV spreads taking them on almost as PhysDef Eviolite Chansey, but it is ultimately easier to pressure with Pursuit users like Tyranitar, Weavile etc. so keep that in mind. Its key niche over Mantine in the role of "Zard/Volca wall that isn't trapped by Duggy" comes from its utility options combined with being able to check certain things over it; a lot of Chansey's niches over Mantine carry over to Blissey.
PhysDef also counters both Zard Y and Volcarona, being a little easier for strong special attackers to pressure as a result but making it so that Pursuit doesn't land quite as hard of a BTFO on it. That said, it is still easier to pressure with Pursuit than Chansey is, so bear that in mind.
VS Zard Y/Volca:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Sun: 202-238 (31 - 36.5%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO (stronger than Focus Blast)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Sun: 241-285 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 199-235 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
Damage ranges overlap for mixed def Blissey variant compared to PhysDef Chansey. PhysDef Blissey's damage range doesn't overlap, but it still takes it on with ease anyway; just be wary of Spikes.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 178-210 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 213-252 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 22.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 177-208 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 297-351 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 358-423 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 297-349 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Once again, damage ranges overlap when comparing mixed def Bliss to PhysDef Chansey, and once again it still takes it on with ease anyway with a PhysDef spread. Spikes are still dumb as shit and should go die in a hole.
Key disadvantage (Pursuit comparisons):
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 399-471 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 399-471 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-345 (41.5 - 49%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Much easier to pressure with TTar, taking a significant chunk from boosted Pursuit and being unable to stall for a bit if it locks into Crunch. Also fwiw SEdge does upwards of 75% to mixed def spreads, meanwhile Chansey takes about 50-60% from it.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 336-396 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 336-396 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Crunch = boosted Pursuit. Deals more than 50% to Bliss, usually deals less than 40% to Chansey. This is very noticable.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey in Sun: 202-238 (31 - 36.5%) -- 65.6% chance to 3HKO (stronger than Focus Blast)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Sun: 241-285 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 199-235 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
Damage ranges overlap for mixed def Blissey variant compared to PhysDef Chansey. PhysDef Blissey's damage range doesn't overlap, but it still takes it on with ease anyway; just be wary of Spikes.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 178-210 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 213-252 (29.8 - 35.3%) -- 22.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 177-208 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 297-351 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 358-423 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 297-349 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Once again, damage ranges overlap when comparing mixed def Bliss to PhysDef Chansey, and once again it still takes it on with ease anyway with a PhysDef spread. Spikes are still dumb as shit and should go die in a hole.
Key disadvantage (Pursuit comparisons):
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 399-471 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 399-471 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-345 (41.5 - 49%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Much easier to pressure with TTar, taking a significant chunk from boosted Pursuit and being unable to stall for a bit if it locks into Crunch. Also fwiw SEdge does upwards of 75% to mixed def spreads, meanwhile Chansey takes about 50-60% from it.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 336-396 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 336-396 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Crunch = boosted Pursuit. Deals more than 50% to Bliss, usually deals less than 40% to Chansey. This is very noticable.
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Check: Scarf Garchomp
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 180-212 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam/Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 175-206 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Simply put, Garchomp enters into the battlefield and punishes the opposing Mega Charizard Y with Stone Edge.
You can even miss once in a 1 vs 1 situation because Garchomp is still quite bulky and Charizard doesn't carry the Dragon STAB, which is orrible in a meta full of Steels and Fairies.
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 180-212 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam/Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 175-206 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
Simply put, Garchomp enters into the battlefield and punishes the opposing Mega Charizard Y with Stone Edge.
You can even miss once in a 1 vs 1 situation because Garchomp is still quite bulky and Charizard doesn't carry the Dragon STAB, which is orrible in a meta full of Steels and Fairies.
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Gonna reserve Scarf Greninja for this one
Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Naïve Nature
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam
- U-Turn
- Filler (whatever your team needs revenged)
Greninja is known to be a good, specialized Scarfer. It can notably revenge Zard Y and Volcarona.
4 Atk Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 384-456 (129.2 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As one can see, Greninja easily revenges Zard Y. It cancome in on a predicted Roost and force it out. However, it's not gonna be taking any hits if they know you're coming in:
252 SpA Charizard Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 340-402 (119.2 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's also gonna be dented pretty badly if you mispredict a roost:
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja in Sun: 176-207 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thus, it's best to wait for a free switch in. If you do have the guts to go for when it roosts, you'll be rewarded for sure.
The rest of the moves are obvious. Ice Beam is imo required on any Greninja thanks to how good Ice is offensively, and U-Turn keeps momentum. Greninja is a highly specialized revenger and thus can fit whatever you need revenged in the last slot; you could go for Gunk Shot if Lele and Koko are bothersome, or Low Kick for Mega T-tar, or even Spikes.
Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Naïve Nature
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam
- U-Turn
- Filler (whatever your team needs revenged)
Greninja is known to be a good, specialized Scarfer. It can notably revenge Zard Y and Volcarona.
4 Atk Protean Greninja Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 384-456 (129.2 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As one can see, Greninja easily revenges Zard Y. It cancome in on a predicted Roost and force it out. However, it's not gonna be taking any hits if they know you're coming in:
252 SpA Charizard Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 340-402 (119.2 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's also gonna be dented pretty badly if you mispredict a roost:
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja in Sun: 176-207 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thus, it's best to wait for a free switch in. If you do have the guts to go for when it roosts, you'll be rewarded for sure.
The rest of the moves are obvious. Ice Beam is imo required on any Greninja thanks to how good Ice is offensively, and U-Turn keeps momentum. Greninja is a highly specialized revenger and thus can fit whatever you need revenged in the last slot; you could go for Gunk Shot if Lele and Koko are bothersome, or Low Kick for Mega T-tar, or even Spikes.
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Check: Assault Vest Goodra
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
Calcs vs Mega Charizard Y
Calcs vs Goodra
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
Calcs vs Mega Charizard Y
8 Atk Goodra Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 268-316 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 170-202 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 184-217 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 170-202 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 184-217 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calcs vs Goodra
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 74-87 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 72-85 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 72-85 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
Hi, time for submission is up. You can now vote for 2 checks and 2 counters. Do not vote for your own set.
Checks:
Keldeo
Waterium Araquanid
Scarf Landorus-T
Tapu Koko
Zygarde
Mega Camerupt
Latios
Garchomp
Greninja
Counters:
Shed Shell Toxapex
Pelipper
Mantine
Shed Shell Blissey
AV Goodra
Note:
Moved Araquanid to checks because it is 2HKOed by Fire Blast in the Sun after Rocks.
Checks:
Keldeo
Waterium Araquanid
Scarf Landorus-T
Tapu Koko
Zygarde
Mega Camerupt
Latios
Garchomp
Greninja
Counters:
Shed Shell Toxapex
Pelipper
Mantine
Shed Shell Blissey
AV Goodra
Note:
Moved Araquanid to checks because it is 2HKOed by Fire Blast in the Sun after Rocks.
Checks:
Latios and Tapu Koko
Counters:
Toxapex and Mantine
Latios and Tapu Koko
That keldeo set looks really jank and bad, trying to do way more things than is practical within teambuilding at the cost of overall effectiveness. Just posting Specs or Scarf would have been way better here. Scarf Lando-T is functional as a check, although I think in the context of checking Zard Y that Garchomp is probably more efficient due to its ability to switch in on it combined with not being forced to run a mostly outdated set to check it due to its speed tier. I think that coil Zygarde is a bad set in the current metagame and doesn't really fit onto that many teams very well anyway, especially when a lot of what it checks is typically checked by common partners anyway.
That leaves Tapu Koko, Araquanid, Mega Camerupt, Latios, Garchomp, and Scarf Greninja. Mega Camerupt isn't great because it is trapped by Dugtrio, and I decided against picking Garchomp both because Groundium Dug can remove it after it takes a little prior damage and because a Scarf set locked into Stone Edge is easy to punish. Araquanid isn't very splashable, hence why I didn't pick it, although being able to patch up this weakness for TR teams is really huge. Greninja is good, but ultimately if it locks into Rock Slide it can be taken advantage of by Dugtrio.
Latios was my check of choice because it can do so repeatedly thanks to Recover. Tapu Koko is also good because Zard Y is typically paired with Groundium Duggy to remove Chansey and Toxapex, meaning it is generally safe from being removed by Dugtrio when revenge killing Zard.
That leaves Tapu Koko, Araquanid, Mega Camerupt, Latios, Garchomp, and Scarf Greninja. Mega Camerupt isn't great because it is trapped by Dugtrio, and I decided against picking Garchomp both because Groundium Dug can remove it after it takes a little prior damage and because a Scarf set locked into Stone Edge is easy to punish. Araquanid isn't very splashable, hence why I didn't pick it, although being able to patch up this weakness for TR teams is really huge. Greninja is good, but ultimately if it locks into Rock Slide it can be taken advantage of by Dugtrio.
Latios was my check of choice because it can do so repeatedly thanks to Recover. Tapu Koko is also good because Zard Y is typically paired with Groundium Duggy to remove Chansey and Toxapex, meaning it is generally safe from being removed by Dugtrio when revenge killing Zard.
Toxapex and Mantine
AV Goodra isn't that great of a 'mon despite the volume of things that it checks due to the fact that it is grounded and vulnerable to poison, meaning that it gets very easily worn down by Spikes and has status inflicted by Toxic Spikes (the latter of which is common alongside Zard Y due to Zard Y+Duggy+CelePex being as good of a team build as it is). I obviously can't vote for my own, although I wouldn't anyway because of the fact that you need to justify it over Chansey when using it.
That leaves Pex, Pelipper, and Mantine. I decided to not vote for Pelipper simply because of the fact that it is only really viable on one type of build, and one which gets put under pressure by Zard Y to boot, and it can be easily pressured between SR and the fact that Zard Y resetting the rain forces it to come out way more often than it is comfortable with doing.
That leaves Pex, Pelipper, and Mantine. I decided to not vote for Pelipper simply because of the fact that it is only really viable on one type of build, and one which gets put under pressure by Zard Y to boot, and it can be easily pressured between SR and the fact that Zard Y resetting the rain forces it to come out way more often than it is comfortable with doing.
Checks: Garchomp and Tapu Koko
Counters: SS Toxapex and Mantine
Counters: SS Toxapex and Mantine
Checks: Koko and Latios
Counters: SS Toxapex and Mantine
Counters: SS Toxapex and Mantine
Check: Lati, Koko
Counter: Pex, Mantine
Counter: Pex, Mantine
- Status