Resource OU No Mega Viability Ranking Thread

[Celticpride]

Approved by AM

Image by Kugawattan
Credit to PK Gaming for the format​

Welcome to the official OU No Mega Viability Ranking topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU No Mega ladder and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

• EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.

Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

• Myself
• -Clone-

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in OU:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

Here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next days:

Initial proposed changes

Reuniclus to B
Venu getting ranked
Potentially unranked candidates for ranking

OU No Mega Ladder Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

S Rank

Azumarill
Bisharp

Keldeo

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

A+ Rank

Clefable
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor

Heatran
Landorus-T
Latios

Talonflame
Thundurus
Weavile

A Rank

Excadrill

Ferrothorn
Gyarados

Hippowdon
Klefki
Kyurem-B

Latias
Mamoswine

Manaphy
Raikou

Rotom-W

Scizor

Slowbro

Starmie
Terrakion
Tornadus-T
Tyranitar

A- Rank

Chesnaught
Dragonite

Jirachi
Mew

Politoed

Serperior

Volcarona

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

B+ Rank

Amoonguss

Breloom
Celebi

Crawdaunt

Diggersby

Dragalge

Hydreigon

Kabutops
Kingdra

Magnezone
Skarmory
Suicune

Tentacruel
Togekiss
Victini

B Rank

Alakazam

Azelf
Chansey
Cobalion
Conkeldurr
Cresselia

Feraligatr
Gothitelle
Hawlucha

Mandibuzz
Quagsire
Omastar
Toxicroak

B- Rank

Alomomola

Empoleon

Heracross
Infernape
Lucario

Reuniclus
Scolipede
Slowking

Sylveon
Tangrowth

Tyrantrum
Zapdos

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

C+ Rank

Blissey

Bronzong

Gastrodon
Magneton

Pangoro
Rhyperior
Seismitoad
Staraptor

Thundurus-T
Wobbuffet

C Rank

Entei
Goodra

Porygon2
Shuckle

C- Rank

Ditto

Dugtrio

Emboar

Gourgeist-XL

Kyurem

Noivern

Salamence

Whimsicott
Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

Chandelure

Cloyster

Cofagrigus

Diancie

Exploud

Haxorus

Honchkrow
Froslass

Ludicolo

Metagross

Mienshao

Ninetales

Rotom-H
Sableye

Shaymin

Venusaur


SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/preliminary-pokedex.304/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.255/

''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

• None yet

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in OU, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.
Rules

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
• No flaming
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.
• PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.

Happy posting ♪♪

 

[Celticpride]

Ok, so to start I’m not going to change anything, I’m just going to put up a fairly lengthy list of noms and hear some input from the community. The reason being my experience and intuition isn’t perfect (and I can only test so much myself). I also feel this will generate good initial discussion, by talking about some of the more obvious trends and noms.

Also, if you’ve played this ladder a lot and have decent forum presence, VM/PM me if you are interested in the council. I’d like to get to 3-4 people if possible. I reserve the right to reject anybody, hopefully I won’t have to use it. Also, I’d like to focus on B rank and higher to start if possible, just to keep this more centered and focused.

In general this thread will be updated weekly, probably around the Friday to Sunday range.

Initial proposed changes

Bisharp to S: Does Knock Off spam define the meta enough for this to be S Rank? It has many checks but is also fairly low opportunity cost.

Talonflame to S: Huge spike in usage, offensive teams lost some great checks to it (Aero and Mane primarily)

Garchomp to A+: Tank set is a good KO (Knock Off) absorber with Rough Skin punishing contact

Raikou to A: Manectric was huge competition, and now it is gone

Gyarados to A: Mega Gyara is gone, and vanilla Gyara offers similar benefits

Terrakion to A-: Loss of checks in Metagross, Diancie, Mega Scizor, and Sableye, as well as speed deflation make Terra better

Dragonite to A-: Loss of many DDers in the tier, also was checked by many of the same things Terrakion was

Weavile to A-: Outstanding speed tier, Knock Off, loss of a few bulky checks makes it overall better

Serperior to B+: Speed deflation and notable loss of checks, although Talon being everywhere doesn’t help it much

Scizor to B+: Absence of Mega Scizor makes non-CB sets way less outclassed, overall just plays better

Togekiss to B: Might have seen a loss in effectiveness, seeing as its rise correlated with the height of MSableye stall; still pretty good though

** Side note ** A lot of threats lost checks, but some lost more than others. Having your biggest checks in the regular OU meta be Metagross and Venusaur is larger grounds for a rise than having your largest checks be Rotom, Lando-T and Mega Slowbro in the regular OU meta, for example.

There’s obviously other stuff outside of that (Volcarona and Politoed I guess?) so feel free to talk about other things if you want, within the B or higher restriction.

Also, don’t use this as a platform for getting things raised in the other thread that eventually didn’t happen. I read that thread pretty frequently so I’ll know if you’ve been pushing for whatever Pokemon you fanboy. Also nothing in this thread should be used as evidence in the trc/AM thread because this meta is so functionally different (basically no “but Celtic raised it in the other viability thread blah blah blah”).

 

[AM]

I think I would like to see some discussion on Azumarill as well. Azumarills only real consistent checks were megas, M-Venusaur and M-Scizor, and now it seems like it can really just hit anything in the tier with very little opportunity cost.

I'd probably consider Clefable moving up as well considering it's one of the better non mega knock off absorbers that lost one of the biggest burdens to it in M-Metagross among a handful of megas it doesn't have to worry about. I'm more iffy on this than Azumarill though as Azumarill seems like a more cut and dry case unless I'm missing something big.

Maybe some discussion on Regenerator users like Amoonguss and Slowbro? Amoonguss seems like it fits the void of a grass type in terms of defensive traits that M-Venusaur could've provided. If spike usage is even more so dominant here I'd probably put emphasis on defensive components of the meta to be more looked at.

 

[Clone]

pls move cobalion up, to B at the very least (id even push for B+ rn). ik u said that you want to focus on mainly the b ranks and up, but cobalion is incredibly consistent in its job of being a great sr setter and knock off absorber. it is also the best bisharp counter in the tier and anyone whos played on the ladder knows that bisharp is probably the biggest threat out there. it also has a fun offensive set of SD, CC, Iron Head, & Stone Edge that works exceptionally well as a late game sweeper thanks to its bulk + typing, despite its measly base 90 attack stat. it is also really good at abusing its justified ability to take advantage of all the knock off spam.

tl;dr move cobalion up. C+ is way too low for it with all of the things it can do.

 

[SketchUp]

Volcarona to B+ or B
Volcarona doesn't fit that well in the metagame compared to the Mega Metagame. Azumarill, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Heatran, Talonflame and Sand Rush Excadrill are a few things that are very common and they are all issues for Volcarona. Volcarona gets so few setup opportunities compared to the ORAS metagame because there are many bulky or fast pokemon that can force it out. If you add up the weakness to Stealth Rocks (combined with the popularity of Pursuit users) it is very difficult for Volcarona to set up (let alone sweep)

Other things I think should happen when I look at the rankings quickly:
Azumarill A+ -> S
Kyurem-B A- -> A
Toxicroak B- -> B
Mamoswine A- -> A
Rhyperior C+ -> B-
Celebi A -> A-

Will add a more detailed reasoning later for these changes.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

On my phone, so I'll try to keep this short, but Terrakion for A, if not A+. It was A+ in late XY IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong), and even then, that was a metagame with Landorus-T everywhere and with a couple of Mega checks like Mega Venusaur and Mega Alakazam that don't exist here. Terrakion's base 108 speed tier is a lot better now with these fast Megas gone, it's once again a great Stealth Rock lead with the Magic Bouncers gone, and it's once again one of the most terrifying wallbreakers in the tier. Definitely a huge step forward from ORAS.

That is all.

 

[Tymano]

Yes I have been waiting for this to happen!
Thoughts on the current slate

Bisharp to S Support:
Talonflame to S Support
Garchomp to A+ Support
Raikou to A Support
Gyarados to A Support
Terrakion to A- Support
Dragonite to A- Do not support
Weavile to A- Support
Serperior to B+ Do not support
Scizor to B+ Support
Togekiss to B Support

Time to make my own nom.
Pangoro C- to B-: Like Bisharp, Pangoro is a very good Knock Off spammer that can heal itself up with Drain Punch and hit Fairies hard with a Gunk Shot, plus it has great coverage like Ice Punch to take care of the Lando's, Thunder punch takes care of Talonflame switch ins, and swords dance to boost it's already high attack, and Parting shot is a great move if you want to switch in a sweeper.

Edit; fixed spelling mistakes.

 

[Jaguar360]

Supporting Weavile to A-. Knock Off having max power on everything is a huge deal and it is one of the fastest Pokemon in the meta. Ice is great as an offensive typing in this meta, being useful for things like Lando-T, Lando-I, Garchomp, Breloom, Latios, Serperior and others that are so great and common in this. Access to a strong, fast Ice Shard is also huge because of this. It's also a solid revenge killer for Bisharp, who has also improved in this metagame, when it carries Low Kick. Weavile definitely improved here an deserves to move up.

Supporting Bisharp to S. Bisharp is the first threat that comes to mind whenever I start teambuilding for the No Mega ladder. Like with Weavile, its Knock Offs are more dangerous than ever and its presence in the ladder is huge. After a Swords Dance or Defiant boost, it sweeps pretty easily against all sorts of teams and if it fails, it will usually eliminate more than one Pokemon. Definitely S rank material in my eyes.

Supporting Garchomp to A+. I've mainly used the bulky rocks setter variant and it probably needs to move up for that alone. This thing is just so good at getting up Rocks and is a very effective lead. Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin and great physical bulk allow it to check a lot of physical attackers well and it is one of the better switch-ins to Knock Off in the tier. Dragon Tail phazing is super useful for getting chip damage with hazards and getting rid of boosts on setup sweepers. It deserves A+.

Against Serperior to B+: Serperior is fine where it is tbh. While it appreciates Mega Venusaur, Mega Alt, MegaZardY and the speedy Megas being gone, checks and counters like Heatran, Talonflame, Bisharp, Scizor, Weavile, Volcarona and Scarf Kyurem-B are very common here. It fares pretty well against Stall, but that playstyle has taken a slight decrease in commonness. It's still great, but shouldn't move up just yet.

Nomming Hawlucha to B+: While Talonflame is more common now, Hawlucha still finds a lot of setup opportunities in the No Mega ladder and might be worthy of moving up. The commonness of Bisharp and Lando-T on the ladder gives Lucha plenty of chances to set up a Sub mid or late game and then start its sweep from there. Its speed pre-Unburden is also very useful, allowing it to control when it gets to activate its Berry and allowing it to get a few HJKs in when it's not appropriate for it to start a sweep. It really appreciates Mega Alt and Mega Bro being gone and one of its better offensive checks in Thundurus is less common than on the normal OU ladder. I think it's worthy of rising a bit, but no further than this.

EDIT:
Supporting the Pangoro nomination as well. Life Orb/Choice Band Pangoro hits super hard and its switchins are very few in number, especially now that Mega Venu and Mega Alt are gone and everything gets affected by Knock Off in some way now. The less common bulky pivot set has also improved in this meta since it's a decent check to Bisharp (fears Low Kick though) and does a great job at providing setup opportunities with Parting Shot as well as spreading Toxics and knocking off items. Its utility and physical bulk are very good. It should move up to B- or C+.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Chestnaught to A- it is one of the best knock off absorbs in the tier.
It counters bisharp, lando-T, excadrill
Checks landrous Keldeo amongst many more things

Mew > A it is one hard wall to break. Even landorous can't break the SPD set and it just burns physical attackers. It is much better w/o being a complete liability vs megadianice, sabeleye, or zard.

 

[RonaldMcdonald]

Bisharp to S:Support. Defining metagame factor I definitely think it should be S because he is the best knock off user in the tier and decimates unprepared squads. The lack of things like megasableye and others make it much easier for Bisharp to wreck.

Talonflame to S: Support It's so scary inn the metagame and hazard removal is easier without mega sableye everywhere though I don't know if any one of its sets individually is S rank. It's more the combination of all its sets including choice band, specially defensive bulk-up, stallbreaker, sharp-beak + Roost etc. Easily the best pokemon in the game when rocks aren't up and even when they are talonflame can still threaten teams if the opponent isn't careful.

Garchomp to A+: On the Fence. I have used bulky SR Chomp on a team that has reached #1 on the ladder and I have to say it's really good. However, I don't think the No-Mega meta has been kind to enough to Garchomp that would make it a sure A+. The offensive set has gotten better in my opinion with the slower speed tier but there are a lot of pokemon that threaten it at the moment that make the Tank set not as good as in Regular overused (Clefable, Azumarill). That said the Tank set is a great Talonflame stop and is really good on hazard stacking teams (which are amazing in this meta) like the one I use on the ladder so I'm not really sure overall. I think it's about as good as in regular Overused (despite its lower usage in no-mega) so I think it all comes down to whether one sees Garchomp as an A+ threat in regular Overused or not.

Gyrados to A: No opinion

Raikou to A: Support. Good electric type that provides different benefits than Thundurus including being a nice bulky pivot on balanced and bulky offense. With no competition from Mega Man A is the correct rank for this guy, especially with so few good electrics in the tier.

Dragonite to A-: Support. No-brainer. Really should be A and not A- at the end of the day. It's band and dragon dance sets are both really good in this mega and priority especially +4 priority is invaluable especially in a meta where talonflame is everywhere.

Weaville to A-: Support. Scary speed tier and hits really hard. It's frailty and the popularity of Keldeo and Azumarill hold it back but it's much stronger in this metagame.

Serperior to B+: Not sure. Don't see it as having gotten particularly better so don't really feel it warrants a rise. Is a pretty good pokemon but it has an underwhelming movepool and doesn't have a great offensive typing. Great on some teams though that need bulky waters removed.

Scizor to B+: Support. Probably an A- threat in the tier so I support a rise to B+ I've used the band set and it's awesome though missing out on Roost stinks. Great Pursuit trapper and priority user that can also function as a wallbreaker. Can be taken advantage of however.Offensive and Bulky Swords Dance are usable though it lacks bulk compared to Mega-Scizor making these sets not as effective.

Azumarill to S: Not sure. Have not had much success using it but is very scary to face. Belly Drum can tear teams apart lacking something faster that resists aqua jet or an unaware user. Definetly got better than in regular OU and its Choice Band set is also good but not sure if its good enough to be S. I may be biased however because I have never had good success using it. i would not say it is as defining as Landorus, Talonflame or Bisharp. I think it's about on Keldeo's level in the meta so on the edge of A+/S.

Togekiss to B: Disagree. In a meta with so few good fairy types Togekiss stands out as an excellent Nasty Pass user and wishpasser. I would say it should stay B+ not rise or fall.

Tornadus-T to A- is something I disagree with as I feel it's really strong against prominent threats like Landorus and Keldeo and its speed tier is invaluable though I would like to see some reasoning before I dismiss it out of hand.

 

[Celticpride]

I thought I already did this but I guess I didn't, -Clone- offered to help me out on this project and I guess that makes him co-leader at this point. Small announcement but still an announcement nonetheless.

 

[UnicornDemon2]

Happy to see this thread is out! I never play the standard ladder, so my comments won't really draw comparisons. Now, in response to the proposed changes:

• Bisharp to S: Support. He has good counters like Keldeo, but they will lose their item and be permanently crippled. There are only 3 Pokemon in the entire tier that can deal with its knock off shenanigans: Lucario, Gliscor (after toxic orb activates), and Garchomp -> physically defensive, rocky helmet only... all other sets are usually killed by a combination of Knock Off and sucker punch.
• Talonflame to S: Support. Not easy to deal with and a strain on team-building. Heatran and Hippowdon need a rock-type moves or else they lose to taunt + bulk up sets. Tyranitar takes a decent amount from choice band u-turns. Landorus-T, bulky Garchomp, and Rotom-W each do a decent job of countering Talonflame, although they all lack a form of recovery. T-flame is also pretty difficult to revenge kill for obvious reasons, which means the only way to deal with it is through defensive Pokemon. On that note, it's fairly effective to pair T-flame up w/ a wallbreaker like SD Diggersby that can draw out and bludgeon these defensive checks.
• Garchomp to A+: Support. Easy. Counters T-flame and Bisharp w/ rocky helm, as well as a bunch of other nonsense - particularly u-turn spam. I know it lacks recovery, but I've found it to pair very well with Sylveon as its wish-passer.
• Raikou to A: Support. Outspeeds Latis, Gengar, and Keldeo, and can switch in moderately well with an assault vest. Also checks the Bravest of Birds. It's a very good choice for any Hyper Offense team.
• Weavile to A-: Support. Great Pokemon. It is difficult to switch in due to shit-typing, bulk, and stealth rock weakness, but if placed on the right team he can accomplish a lot.
• Serperior to B+: Indifferent. I'd have to play a bit more before I can form an opinion. It's never given me much trouble except for this one time late game when it surprised me by killing my T-tar with Giga Drain, bringing its hp from around half to full. I expected to revenge kill with Excadrill afterwards, but that didn't work out.
• Dragonite, Scizor, and Togekiss I have no opinion on.

Now, here are some nominations I'd like to make:

• Excadrill to A+ (possibly S): The sand rush set is really good. Ground/Steel STAB combo has incredible coverage -> there's only 6 viable Pokemon in the tier which resist it, and four of them are 2HKO'd by rock slide even without stealth rock up. Thanks to Exca's very high attack stat, a lot of Exca's would-be counters are 2HKO'd if stealth rock and a layer of spikes are up. To illustrate:
• 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
• Getting up spikes isn't difficult, as Ferrothorn is an amazing Pokemon to use on sand teams. Ferrothorn also can easily switch into many of Exca's checks like Lando-T, Gliscor, Azumarill, Hippowdon, etc. and start hurling out layers of spikes. Excadrill also just so happens to be immune to toxic and thunder wave. Plus it can run either swords dance or rapid spin, whatever tickles your fancy. As far as needing support... it's kind of a stretch to say running T-tar is support. T-tar is already a great Pokemon, and it doesn't even need to do anything to set up sand - it just switches in and boom. Compare this to defog or rapid spin support, which requires a whole turn to accomplish and can be blocked by ghost types/Bisharp.
• Ferrothorn to A+ (possibly S): This thing is extremely difficult to deal with outside of strong STAB fighting or fire type attacks. Apart from Heatran, fire types can't switch in all that often thanks to the stealth rock weakness. And as for fighting types, both Keldeo and Terrakion have to watch out for its STABs. The amount of utility Ferrothorn offers is unbelievable: stealth rock, spikes, leech seed, iron barbs (punishes u-turn shenanigans), thunder wave, two 120 base powered STABs. The only flaw it has really is that it's Heatran bait... in which case just pair it up with something like Starmie or Keldeo and you're g2g.
• Terrakion to A (possibly A+): Agent Gibbs explained why. The suicide lead set is great. It's nice that Terrakion can deal with Tyranitar, unlike Azelf.
• Sylveon to B+: Awesome Pokemon that can keep your team healthy and is difficult to take down. I know Clefable has better abilities, but Sylveon has a lot more bulk and can more easily take hits on both the physical and special side, allowing it to simultaneously check dangerous special attackers like Keldeo, Thundurus, and Latios and also physical attackers like Dragonite, Weavile, and Kyurem-B. Also, pixilate hyper voice is handy.
• Jellicent to C+/B-: Great pokemon for defensive teams: 1. Can't be trapped by Gothitelle, 2. Spin-blocks and is particularly good against Starmie, 3. Walls Keldeo, 4. Will-o-wisp

 

[Albacore]

Haven't played this metagame too much so forgive me if I say something dumb :

Bisharp to S: Agree. From what I've seen this is a meta-defining threat with almost no opportunity cost. The only mark against it is that Keldeo is everywhere but it's still worn down by Knock Off and has a bucnh of good checks and counters.

Talonflame to S: Disagree. Although it's a huge threat, it still has the same flaws it used to have : it's very prone to being worn down, can't break past a lot of physically bulky Pokemon, and the popularity of bulky garchomp is annoying for it. It also lost a bunch of niches with the Megas gone : it used to check Metagross and Lopunny and counter Altaria and Sableye, arguably the 4 best megas, as well as YZard and Scizor. The few Megas that used to beat it were honestly pretty uncommon as a whole. I'd say it's about as good as it used to be, it lost just as much as it gained.

Garchomp to A+: Agree, great Bisharp and Talon killer and doesn't have to worry about Sableye or Altaria anymore.

Raikou to A: Neutral on this one but a raise makes sense, loss of MMan makes it the best offensive Volt Switcher, also its speed tier is a lot better now that it doesn't have to worry about Lopunny. Also lost a couple of counters in Altaria and XZard

Gyarados to A: Agree, this thing handles 2 of the biggest threats in Landorus and Keldeo and has far less competition as a DDer now.

Terrakion to A-/A : Oh look, a good rock setter that's not Azelf or Garchomp and easily fits on offensive teams. Yeah, this defenitely deserves a raise.

Dragonite to A-: Much less competition and fewer Fairies so this one makes sense.

Weavile to A-: Agree, a super fast Knock Off alone makes this a really solid mon.

Serperior to B+: If not A-. Basically lost half its good answers, only leaving Water-weak, hazard-weak mons in Talonflame and Heatran, which in turn makes building round it a lot easier.

Scizor to B+: Agree. Mega is gone, 'nuff said.

Togekiss to B: Disagree. Honestly I'd give this a raise to A- if anything. With the loss of two of its best checks in Metagross and Diancie and competition in the 3 fairy megas, it's a lot better than it used to be imo. Decent check to both Bisharp and Keldeo as well. Loss of Sableye doesn't really affect it too much since it's still a hugely effective stallbreaker even without it to set up on and a pain for slower teams. The only thing that stops me from fully supporting a raise to A- is the fact that it was borderline B rank in the first place, but it's defenitelky at least B+ now.

Azumarill to S : Agree. Lost a bunch of checks as well as its only hard counter, and stands as one of the only offensive Fairies left. Now, It's just as good as it was during its prime in mid-to-laxe XY, if not better.

Clefable to S : This one is more iffy since Bisahrp and Talon are everywhere, but it defenitely has a lot less to worry about now that Metagross is gone. I'd hold out on this one at the moment.

Mew to A/A+ : Agree. Sableye is gone, YZard and XZard are gone, now Mew is free to destroy stall like it did in late XY. The only thing really limiting it is Talonflame but that's really not hard to take advantage of and has lost valuable niches on Stall to the point of not being as good there as it used to.

My own nominations :

Jirachi to B+ : No more Gardevoir or Diancie means Jirachi has a lot more competition from Heatran now. Also Bisharp Bisharp Bisharp. It's still a good Pokemon and a better Lati counter than Heatran but it defenitely lost viability.

Doublade to Unranked : Loss of megas kill any shred of viability this once had. There are way, way better Terrakion counters out there.

Breloom to A- : Lost a bunch of offensive checks, nice check to Bisharp, preforms well against the more popular offensive teams with its Sash set.

 

[MANNAT]

Celticpride, you are a based god for being able to put this together during play off opening weekend. <3 (will put more info on viability ranks later)

Edit: Viability Rank considerations (and my own suggestions):

Rotom-W to A+ - Rotom-W is a great utility mon to use right now, checking many top tier threats such as; Talonflame, Landorus-T, and even Keldeo in some situations without megas like Venusaur ruining its day.

Talonflame & Bisharp to S -

Talonflame is actually just fine sitting in A+ rank right now in my opinion because its best checks/counters (Heatran, Landoge, Rotom-W) are still amazing threats in the tier and its weakness to stealth rock is still as middling as ever. To be honest, many fast megas that offense used Talonflame as an emergency check for are gone like Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile, so it should probably be moving in the direction of A+ - A rather than A - A-.

Bisharp on the other hand, is a prolific offensive threat that has gotten significantly better with the subtraction of megas from the metagame. The first thing that people look at is the fact that people cannot simply switch out to a mega to absorb knock off and it will always be at full strength on the first hit. Also, many of Bisharp's better offensive checks like Megalop, Megagross, and others have left the tier, so it should definitely move up to S rank in spite of Keldeo being a full stop to it.

Garchomp to A+ - This one honestly makes absolutely no sense to me. Most of the megas that garchcomp was used as an emergency check to with its rocky helmet set (most popular set in OU atm) as gone, and the only real merit that Garchomp's rocky helmet set has is that it helps take down Talonflame. Also, the fast megas that the scarf set outsped and killed are now gone as well. I would say that this should go down to A- tbh.

Weavile to A- - This and every other knock off user are better basically because of the new knock off buff in this meta, and many of the best checks to this specifically are now gone. (MegaLop, Megallade, MegaDiancie, etc.) So, I'm fully supporting this one for the reasons listed above. (Crawdaunt should probably move up too tbh)

I haven't had enough experience with the other mons in this tier to say anything about the shifts.

 

[Tymano]

Looking through the rankings I am here to make another nom.

Chansey B+ --> C+

Chansey loses a ton of viability due to its reliance on it's eviolite, so in a meta infested with Knock Off, losing it's item is horrible because it suddenly loses half of it's bulk, rendering it useless for most of the rest of the match.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Looking through the rankings I am here to make another nom.

Chansey B+ --> C+

Chansey loses a ton of viability due to its reliance on it's eviolite, so in a meta infested with Knock Off, losing it's item is horrible because it suddenly loses half of it's bulk, rendering it useless for most of the rest of the match.

I strongly disagree with this as chansey can wall most of the meta and doesn't have to fear powerful megastallbreakers. Just carry knock off absorber and your set.

 

[Froggyboy]

Unrank Cofagrigus imo.
Its only niche in normal OU is being able to wall the -ate users, and seeing as how those are megas, which are removed from this meta, it shouldn't be ranked.

 

[Celticpride]

Shoutout to user Kugawattan for getting us a banner for this topic! He also made a new banner for the other viability thread. Keep up the good work man!

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I'd like to see Chansey drop at least to B, or even B-.

1. Stall archetypes are on a decline. Chansey really only fits on stall, where it provides much-needed clerical support, Wish support, blanket check to special attackers. However, with the rise of new stallbreakers such as Gliscor and Reuniclus, Stall is more and more uncommon, because many more teams are more prepared for the playstyle in general. Mega Sableye is also a Pokemon that has breathed new life into Stall, but with that gone as well, Stall is too. That said, with Chansey's main playstyle gone, it faces a huge drop, both in viability, usefulness, and usage.
2. Knock Off is everywhere. Being pseudo-weak to the most spammable, arguably the best, move in the metagame hardly helps Chansey, as without its Eviolite, it is significantly less bulky.
3. Many special attackers have ways to check it, or lure it in and cripple it. From S -> A rank, these following special attackers have ways to get past Chansey easily: Keldeo (Secret Sword), Landorus (Knock Off/Calm Mind), Clefable (Calm Mind), Gengar (Taunt/SubSplit), Heatran (Taunt), Latios (Calm Mind + Psyshock), Thundurus (Knock Off), Celebi (NastyPass fodder), Manaphy (Tail Glow), Slowbro (Calm Mind + Psychock), Starmie (Analytic Psyshock severely weakens Chansey), and Tornadus-T (Knock Off). Out of S - A rank Pokemon, only AoA Latios, RP non-Knock Off Landorus, Heatran lacking Taunt, Thundurus lacking Knock Off, Latias, Rotom-W, non-Calm Mind Slowbro, and Starmie win against Chansey. Considering that most of the time these Pokemon carry these, it's not safe to assume Chansey can blanket check many special attackers anymore.

 

[Martin]

I'd like to nominate Blissey to B or B- for the reason that Chansey is moving down: stall is significantly less viable. Blissey is capable of fitting on a large number of archetypes that Chansey simply doesn't fit onto (i.e. any format that benefits from a blob not called stall) due to its high versatility when compared to Chansey. Similar (not identical) logic to that in regular OU applies to Blissey here, so I'm just going to quote my post from there, but do take it with a slight pinch of salt due to slightly different metagame trends.

OK. The other day, I said that Blissey should be on par with/one sub rank below chansey. However, having played around with the two a little more, Blissey is simply more splashable than Chansey is and is better than the unevolved blob in the meta's current state.

• With sandstorm being such a popular and effective strategy in the format, that leftovers recovery is really helpful as it isn't worn down as easily as Chansey, and even without sandstorm the difference in longevity is noticable.
• The biggest problem with Chansey is that it kills any momentum that your team has built up, which limits its use to stall teams (and trust me when I say that HO+Chansey is far less effective than it was in the XY meta due to this). While the same is true for Blissey, this is much less prominent due to its ability to lure out threats to its team with its coverage options.
• Blissey's greater versatility when it comes to what it can run also sets it apart hugely from Chansey. Chansey needs Toxic to have any form of presence on the field. However, Blissey's ability to carry coverage (e.g. Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball etc.), which already gives it very good versatility before considering other moves, allows it to carry Thunder Wave - a tool which is far more crippling to most of its common switchins. This means that its sets are far more varied in what they can carry, and means that Blissey needs a lot more scouting for than Chansey due to the latter only needing to reveal one of its status moves aside from Toxic (or I guess Softboiled, but most wish sets carry Protect>Softboiled, making it typically a non-issue) to reveal its entire set.
• While the greater bulk is a neat asset for Chansey, its not like special attackers can touch Blissey anyway, and you shouldn't be switching/keeping either of them in on physical attacks in the first place due to their sub-par defense. Hell: off of the top of my head, the only thing of note that Chansey does that Blissey can not is avoid a 2HKO from Latios' Psyshock after rocks, and this is before considering that it may use Draco anyway, putting it at -2 SpA and hardly denting either of them anyway. If I am missing anything there, please tell me, as my memory may be failing me there.

In my opinion, having done brief text-based evaluation and hours of testing, Chansey's perks aren't really enough to justify its use over Blissey most of the time, and as a result, I feel that Blissey needs to be either on par with Chansey or one sub rank above it. Feel free to argue against me, as I want to keep an open mind, but this is just what I have personally found.

 

[Celticpride]

Update!

Azumarill --> S
Bisharp --> S
Garchomp --> A+
Gyarados --> A
Raikou --> A
Scizor --> A
Terrakion --> A
Dragonite --> A-
Weavile --> A-
Serperior --> B+
Chansey --> B
Cobalion --> B
Doublade --> unranked

Pretty obvious stuff, most of it was talked about above. Doublade got canned because it was only used in a very niche role to handle certain Megas (not very well I might add).

Clone and I were not totally onboard with Mew moving up, so that's up for discussion. Jirachi moving down was also mentioned but I'm not sold at the moment because it still provides a lot of support. Chesnaught moving up to A- is also on my radar because it's a great and consistent Knock Off absorber / Bisharp check. Also, B- and below are now up for discussion. Those were mostly ignored the first time around outside of extremely obvious ones.

 

[Froggyboy]

I still maintain Cofagrigus being unranked, Knock Off spam and not being able to check things like Megagross and Lopunny hurt it.
Plus Noivern should probably move down to D rank, its speed now isn't really needed to outspeed the fast megas since they aren't in this tier.

 

[bludz]

I actually haven't played this meta at all so take this with a grain of salt. I think Hydreigon should move up since it is primarily hurt in the OU (+ Mega) metagame by fairy types, several of which are Mega Evolutions such as Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria. The remaining fairies are Clefable, Sylveon and Azumarill which Hydreigon outspeeds so they are not nearly as threatening to it. It's also a pretty solid check to Bisharp.

 

[AM]

I don't see why you would raise Mew tbh. Mews problems weren't particularly the zards or really any of the megas, it actually benefits in a metagame with megas around because of its ability to have synergy with so many of them because it filled a great role of a stallbreaker. The fact you moved Bisharp and Weavile up a rank I think is a pretty good sign that Mew doesn't like a Knock Off prone meta and is the first cue that it shouldnt' go up. However with that said I don't see why you would drop it either. Mew is like one of the few things that can stare in the face of Landorus with a specially defensive spread while using Knock Off and removing Life Orb or can provide its usual stall-breaker tactics to screw around with balanced and even in a pinch some offensive teams. These megas that are considered to be the hindrance to Mew like Zards and Houndoom are gone. So basically this means the tier is prone to either Knock Off or Will-O-Wisp with the only real consistent switch in to either move is Infernape, probably missing some other stuff but yeah it seems like Mew more or less has gain some advantages while only losing out on certain metatrends that can hinder its performance a bit, i.e. Knock Off spam.

I'd probably raise Infernape for the same reasons as to why Mew is hindered. It's a good offensive check to one of your new S mons and a bunch of other stuff you raised this slate lol so I think it makes sense since it's not like in ORAS where it's facing some huge competition for Fire type when the main competition were from megas and Heatran mostly.

Klefki raise? Two magic bouncers gone, Knock Off Absorber, and pretty much can guarantee you a Spike the moment it comes in while being a support asset to the power houses you see in the S rank without ruining some sort of defensive synergy.

I don't get why you would drop Jirachi. Like think about how good the Latis are in terms of synergy with all the S rank and A rank right now. You have Latios who is a powerhouse where none of the higher ranks can actually comfortably switch in while providing so many tools already and Latias who can just Healing Wish your high ranked mons with Keldeo by itself being a solid knock off absorber and if built correctly can just make end games much easier in this meta as Latias' best checks were megas like Mega Metagross, M-Sableye, and M-Diancie. So the point being is why would you drop the one thing that can reliably pivot into the Latis comfortably with the understanding that Jirachis best partners are all Dark resistance, Fairy and Fighting, which includes what can be legitimate Knock Off absorbers? Then you take into account all the assets Jirachi already has like thinking a Bisharp is safe while revealing a SubToxic set, or Healing Wish for that support for offensive teams.

Idk what else is being discussed but Gourgeists main niche was being an ok M-Gross and Lopunny switch in so I guess what's the real justification for even using it now when almost all of the offensive mons above C+ can beat it.

 

[Jaguar360]

As much as I love to advocate for Gourgeist, I've got to agree with moving it down here. Its main niches are spinblocking Excadrill and bulky Starmie and walling a few things, but it's passive and the presence of Knock Off in this metagame make it hard to perform well.

I find the best EV spread for it in this metagame to be Impish 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD, which allows it to check Keldeo, Landorus, Azumarill, Terrakion and co., but CM Lando beats it and Gourgeist really dislikes Knock Off from Lando and Azu and Band Play Rough 2HKOs with that spread. The prominence of Heatran, Talonflame, Bisharp and Weavile really stinks for it and it's pretty passive, making it a liability against Stall sometimes. Gourgeist should drop to D or unranked.

While we're on B- and below, I'll repost my quick Pangoro nom:

Supporting the Pangoro nomination as well. Life Orb/Choice Band Pangoro hits super hard and its switchins are very few in number, especially now that Mega Venu and Mega Alt are gone and everything gets affected by Knock Off in some way now. The less common bulky pivot set has also improved in this meta since it's a decent check to Bisharp (fears Low Kick though) and does a great job at providing setup opportunities with Parting Shot as well as spreading Toxics and knocking off items. Its utility and physical bulk are very good. It should move up to B- or C+.

Also don't be surprised if I make a Slurpuff nom within the week. I have a feeling BD Slurpuff will do well here.