Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[bludz]

Art by Emrysthemay
Credit to PK Gaming for the format​

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

• EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.

Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Ranking Team:

• Albacore
• bludz
• CrashinBoomBang
• Finchinator
• Gary2346
• TDK

We are alphabetical just like the mons.

SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.255/

Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-sets-viability-rankings-v5.3572209/


ORAS OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank

Clefable

Landorus-T

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Diancie (Mega)

Heatran

Keldeo

Latios

Lopunny (Mega)

Medicham (Mega)

Rotom-W

Scizor (Mega)

Tornadus-T

Tyranitar

A Rank

Charizard (Mega-X)

Excadrill

Ferrothorn

Garchomp

Heracross (Mega)

Jirachi

Manaphy

Slowbro

Talonflame

Thundurus

Weavile

A- Rank

Alakazam (Mega)

Azumarill

Bisharp

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Gardevoir (Mega)

Gliscor

Metagross (Mega)

Pinsir (Mega)

Serperior

Skarmory

Starmie

Tangrowth

Terrakion

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Amoonguss

Chansey

Crawdaunt

Gengar

Gyarados (Mega)

Hippowdon

Kyurem-B

Latias

Latias (Mega)

Magnezone

Manectric (Mega)

Mew

Nidoking

Slowbro (Mega)

Suicune

Venusaur (Mega)

Volcanion

B Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Alakazam

Alomomola

Altaria (Mega)

Breloom

Dragonite

Gastrodon

Gyarados

Hydreigon

Klefki

Quagsire

Reuniclus

Slowking

Volcarona

Zapdos

B- Rank

Celebi

Diggersby

Dugtrio

Kabutops

Kingdra

Kyurem

Mamoswine

Metagross

Politoed

Raikou

Scizor

Togekiss

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Dragalge

Empoleon

Gallade (Mega)

Garchomp (Mega)

Infernape

Lucario

Mandibuzz

Omastar

Sceptile (Mega)

Scolipede

Sharpedo (Mega)

Swampert (Mega)

Thundurus-T

Victini

Zygarde

C Rank

Azelf

Entei

Feraligatr

Hawlucha

Jellicent

Magneton

Pidgeot (Mega)

Seismitoad

Tentacruel

Toxicroak

Tyranitar (Mega)

C- Rank

Aggron (Mega)

Beedrill (Mega)

Blastoise (Mega)

Chesnaught

Cobalion

Cofagrigus

Conkeldurr

Goodra

Hoopa

Rotom-H

Staraptor

D Rank:

Ampharos (Mega)

Blissey

Bronzong

Cresselia

Houndoom (Mega)

Porygon2

Rhyperior

Sylveon

Roserade

Sableye

Shedinja

Tyrantrum

Whimsicott

Rules - Now updated 8/18/2015

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
• No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
• AM celticpride is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.
• See bludz' signature for how to not get your posts deleted.
• POST REPLAYS FOR NOMINATIONS FROM UNRANKED TO RANKED OR YOUR POST WILL BE DELETED!!!

Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these pokemon will be deleted.

• Mega Latios

Happy posting ♪♪

Current Discussion Points:
who reads this lol

 

[bludz]

Welcome back to the VR thread, version 5 this time.

First up I want to touch on what the rankings mean. It’s really important to understand that ranks like A+ and B are really just arbitrary labels that have no meaning other than what we give them. This means within a certain ranking thread they refer to a certain level of viability, and in another they represent a different level of viability. In other words, stuff that was A rank in the last ranking may find itself in a rank like B+ now. This doesn’t mean these things got significantly worse – it just means the ranking definitions have changed due to the decrease in number of pokemon on the rankings overall. Of course, there have been some other shifts that we’ve taken into account.

The ranking team has chosen to remove a lot of things from the OP. Honestly most of D rank in the old thread was pretty garbage stuff. There’s been a lot of discussion about this kind of thing but basically most of these mons were bad enough that they aren’t really worth considering within the larger lens of the metagame. I don’t really want to get into specific examples – anyone who has experience in OU can tell what unranked mons are good enough to put on teams and fill specific niches. This resource is primarily to rank and discuss relevant threats in the metagame, and ranking mons such as these can be a bit misleading to newer players.

OU is a bit of a unique case since fewer things are banned here than in lower ranks, so there are more options and thus people want to discuss the viability of lower rank stuff. I have put a plan into motion for revamping the OU Underdog thread so you guys can talk about all the new stuff that has dropped off the VR thread, so wait on that if you really wanna talk about these things. We probably aren’t going to entertain adding them back.

Next thing is the new ranking slate. Familiarize yourself with the new rankings first and then feel free to jump right in. Here’s the slate:
Terrakion B+ -> A-
Mew B+ -> B
Nidoking B -> B+
Slowking B -> B+
Alakazam B -> B+
Hippowdon B -> B+
Mamoswine B- -> B
Metagross B- -> B
Raikou B -> B-
Mega Beedrill C+ -> C
Feraligatr C -> C+

Lastly, I would like you all to welcome CrashinBoomBang and Finchinator to the ranking team. We’re glad to have these guys on board!

 

[Taliheim]

Can't help but notice you say the "ranking definitions have changed", yet give no hint as to how said definitions changed. Could you please elaborate on how you view each tier and what defines where a Pokemon stands?

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Can't help but notice you say the "ranking definitions have changed", yet give no hint as to how said definitions changed. Could you please elaborate on how you view each tier and what defines where a Pokemon stands?

Rank definitions have changed in a sense that the value placed on ranks changed. As Bludz said in his post, the rankings have only the value we give to them. It's clear to see that these values have changed quite some bit, with the S rank being reduced, and most of the bordering mons dropped into lower ranks. It's not cut and dry to "define" these ranks, as the whole idea of a Viability Ranking is to get an idea of whats good in the metagame, not what meets x criteria. Good is subjective, and therefor so are these rankings and the rank definitions.

 

[bludz]

Can't help but notice you say the "ranking definitions have changed", yet give no hint as to how said definitions changed. Could you please elaborate on how you view each tier and what defines where a Pokemon stands?

Peef basically summed it up honestly but I'll just give my quick answer as well.

It's basically the same premise but we can spread things out more now that we cleaned out all the nonsense in the bottom ranks. The basic idea of any ranking is that anything that share a rank have similar viability, and anything in a separate rank from that has a different level of viability.

Specific definitions just weigh down the whole subjective aspect of the difficult task of ranking things anyway. If you want a basic outline it's something like this:

S = best mons in the meta

A+ = extremely meta defining / splashable / threatening

A = very solid but not quite as good

A- = quite strong but need more support / come with opportunity cost

and so on down all the way

D is basically niche but good enough to actually consider on a competitive team where the basis of the team isn't based on building around it to the point where it offers some type of support rather than being a hindrance / dead weight a large majority of the time

 

[Of Moose & Men]

So no move of MegaCham? I'd argue he's definitely a meta threatening Pokemon. I don't want to steer too far from the current slate, but I feel as though MegaCham should definitely be A+, or at least discussed.

EDIT: I agree with most of these placements though. Can't complain outside of cham lol.

 

[Eclipse]

I do like the way the revamped VR looks, it'll take me a while to get used to it, I think the one true disagreement I have is Tyranitar in A as opposed to A+, but that's an argument for another day.

Mew: B+ --> B
I was thinking about this mon not too long ago, and I was honestly baffled about why it was sitting in A- rank. Honestly, even being in B+ rank is too generous for it; as a stallbreaker, it just gets stopped cold by Sab and is simply just nowhere near the level of other stallbreakers. As a Defogger, it's alright, but justifying this mon on any team is just REALLY difficult. I will give it the benefit of the doubt by saying that Medicham's popularity of late is good for Mew as it can stomach Medi's hits harder than most mons in the tier and then make it useless with a good old Will-O. I would honestly say that maybe even B- rank might be appropriate. But Mew is very versatile, that can't be taken away from it. However, any surprise value that other sets may have is taken away from the fact that you can simply make your team better by using many other available mons in the tier, so I just find it difficult to justify using Mew in general, despite it being a very solid mon overall. Especially when you compare it to mons with actual value to a team like Starmie or Magnezone in B+, or even an actual effective stallbreaker in Togekiss in B, Mew is the odd man out. So therefore, a drop to B / maybe B- rank would be very appropriate for Mew.

 

[MANNAT]

Love the fact that Clefable is alone in S since nothing is really on the same level as the thing and I'm pretty happy with most of the movements overall. A+ is a lot more exclusive than it was before, so I can understand some things like mgross dropping (although I think meta should be A rank) that I argued for A+ before. A+ is now truly the most splashable and versatile mons in the metagame that aren't quite good enough to be "the best of the best"", which I really like (although chomp with its insane versatility and splashablility deserves a nod imo having so many viable sets along with talon who is a really fucking good mon in general). I really like the way that this looks overall and appreciate how the higher ranks aren't nearly as densely populated as they were before. Overall I really like the way that this looks, but I'll have too give a piece of my mind with Raikou dropping so far down sometime soon.

Now, here's my own nom so that this post isn't just oodling at how much i like the new VR setup.

Mega Sab should probably go to A+ rank though since it is such a meta defining pokemon and is splashable enough, being able to be used on stall/semi-stall/balance pretty well, and it is so threatening that you really need to account for it in teambuilding. If you don't specifically add multiple sableye answers to your teams, then you can end up losing to it quite easily. An example of this is heatran, sableye can knock off its lefties and wear it down in between forcing it to take rocks damage and chansey's seismic tosses that it can go out of commission pretty easily, and if this is your only good sab answer that you decided to put on your build, then you straight up lose to the thing or have to pray for hax. Obviously this is applicable to multiple mons, but this applies so much more to sableye since its useful utility move in knock off and ability to shut down so many hazard setters in the tier is really nice and is more than deserving of A+ rank. Obviously sableye still suffers from the same flaws that it always has, but I feel like it is really good in this fat meta with offensive titans that usually pressure it a shitton being a lot less common than they were a while ago.

 

[Reiddos]

Mew B+ > B Disagree
Usually I'm not one to defend the viability of mons that are generally used to help the semi stall, balance or stall archetype but I feel like in this instance I can.

Mew is actually a really versatile pokemon in the meta and I would like to point this out. It has access to every TM and HM in the game which obviously allows it to use a thousand different sets which can be used to surprise opponents. Mew can be used as a baton passer, offensively with a life orb and probably most importantly it is a really good knock off and will o wisp user with access to defog.
I will acknowledge that Mew does get beaten by strong special attackers I still think it deserves B+ as it can tank a large majority of popular physical attackers and cripple them with burns and it can knock off essential items of common switch ins such as clefable, heatran (knocking off a trans leftiez is huge imo) and knocking off eviolites from chansey.

As the above mentioned post has stated stallbreaker mew does lose to Mega Sableye but with team support it can be dealt with and I think losing to Mega Sab doesn't justify it's drop as most thigns in B+ require team support in order to function correctly.

Combined with the fact it can also surprise baton pass stats such as nasty plot, sd and even rock polish or do large chunks of damage to offensive switch ins with Life ORb.

Overall from my point of view a drop for mew is unwarranted as it could be dropped if it onlu performed one defensive role however it can perform several offensive, defensive and team supported roles.

 

[AM]

Yo are you guys being serious with M-Cham to A+ (non sarcastically speaking, I've been known to hurt feelings apparently)? I've been lurking as always and the credit you give M-Cham is a bit much :/. I haven't seen a good reason to make it rise and this point other than dudes realized after like two years it has access to Thunderpunch and we're past the initial ORAS hype.

So no move of MegaCham? I'd argue he's definitely a meta threatening Pokemon. I don't want to steer too far from the current slate, but I feel as though MegaCham should definitely be A+, or at least discussed.

EDIT: I agree with most of these placements though. Can't complain outside of cham lol.

Is a stretch in establishing it's defining presence in the tier when things like Tyranitar have a much higher overall presence in the tier than M-Cham does. Half the A's are actually more defining than M-Cham to me at least.

No comment on slate other than they're pretty good discussion points.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Yo are you guys being serious with M-Cham to A+ (non sarcastically speaking, I've been known to hurt feelings apparently)? I've been lurking as always and the credit you give M-Cham is a bit much :/. I haven't seen a good reason to make it rise and this point other than dudes realized after like two years it has access to Thunderpunch and we're past the initial ORAS hype.
Is a stretch in establishing it's defining presence in the tier when things like Tyranitar have a much higher overall presence in the tier than M-Cham does. Half the A's are actually more defining than M-Cham to me at least.

No comment on slate other than they're pretty good discussion points.

Well, the surge in balance helps too. But I guess I can see your point that a lot of A mons can be seen as more influential I suppose. I do tend to have kicks on certain 'mons and it results in me nomming them. I just think that, with how much it's used now, and how near impossible it is to switch into is pretty big right now.

But yea, with things like TFlame, TTar, Chomp, and Weavile also in A, I can see it staying. I just wanted to see it under that A+ classification.

I'd argue TTar should rise, but I'll let this sort of settle down first.

 

[Infernal]

I think Tar should be A+

In terms of metagame influence, I think few things are on Tar's level right now. This is mainly because of the immense and diverse support it provides for many teams at such a consistent and high level compared to most Pokemon in the tier. Starting with Pursuit, it's around every corner of OU and has always been in high demand. The ability to trap and remove something from a match is really invaluable. When it comes to providing this, Tar is unrivaled and definitely the most used Pokemon for the role. It's able to trap a high number of Pokemon using several sets, all of which provide a team with an equally useful amount of other support outside of trapping. For example:

• Band - With this, Tar is able to trap or pressure Pokemon like Mega Latias, Slowbro, and other defensive psychics better than its other sets. Other Pokemon like Mega Manec and Raikou are also trapped better by CB due to the higher power behind Pursuit. Outside of providing Pursuit, CB Tar contributes further support by serving as a strong wall breaker that is very hard for many builds to stomach hits from, demonstrating its offensive prowess.
  
• Scarf - In exchange for CB's higher power, Scarf allows Tar to trap Pokemon like Gengar better while still being able to pressure many of the Pokemon mentioned above. The added speed is very useful for checking threats like Thund-I, Mega Pinsir, and Bisharp better than CB ever could and to avoid being burned by the likes of Talon before having the chance to attack. This all further demonstrates Tar's flexibility and ability to use several sets to perform the trapper role well, all while providing other useful support for a team outside of said role.
  
• Chople - Running this allows Tar to now trap things like Mega Zam better, all while still being able to pressure or kill Pokemon like Gengar and Thund-I just as effectively. Aside from this role, these sets can also provide SR for teams and a check to threats like DD Zard-X due to the higher defensive investment that sets with Chople tend to run, further showing Tar's flexibility with the support it provides.

I could go on forever, but the point is that Tar can provide invaluable Pursuit support for teams with a number of different sets, all of which bring other unique and useful traits (wall breaking, revenge killing relevant offensive threats, SR, and so on). These sets can all fit on various team styles, with each of them benefiting greatly from Tar's presence. Prime examples are Exca sand offense and spikes balance. The former is mainly possible because of Tar's existence alone, while the latter loves Tar's ability to trap or pressure the most common users of Defog and Spin to help control the hazard game. Even stall benefits from having breakers like Toge checked by Scarf Tar, showing how it can fit excellently on many builds.

With this said, there's one other thing worth mentioning to expand on how defining and influential Tar is: the sheer number of Pokemon that benefit from the support it provides. Threats like Keld, Volcanion, Zard-Y, Manaphy, Exca, and many more all benefit immensely from having Tar as a partner. For example, with Pokemon like Mega Latias and Slowking eliminated by Tar, Keld and Volcanion become much more threatening. With sand up, which can have its turns lengthened by Smooth Rock, Exca gets that much needed speed boost under sand that truly makes it threatening. Tar's ability to benefit so many other Pokemon just from the support it brings to the table is something very few other Pokemon can rival.

Overall, I think Tar is worthy of moving up. It isn't without cons, but its pros largely outweigh them. It's a very threatening Pokemon with plenty of influence on the metagame, and there's a reason it's all over the place right now. The amount of support Tar provides teams with is nearly unmatched I'd say, with the number of Pokemon benefiting from having it as a partner being really impressive. It handles a large number of relevant threats and performs its role very well and consistently. I think all of this combined puts Tar above everything else sitting in A in terms of metagame impact and effectiveness. It's hard to say it isn't on par with what's currently in A+, and I think it should be strongly considered for a rise at some point.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

ROFL clefable is the only S rank again and diancie is the top of A+. Me and my fairies approve of this new system and thread revamp :).

Anyway I want to ask why terrakion is being considered for a rise?. might just be me but Not much has changed for it. Sableye, clef, lando and garchomp are all still very common. That's not including monsters like diancie or fake out lop who utterly destroy lead sets. sure there's offencive sets but are they really that good? Really leaning on keeping it in B+ for now.

I'll post more on the rest later but I'm at work

 

[HailFall]

Can quag rise to b+? It's basically mandatory on stall and it's typing, movepool, and most of all it's ability allow it to wall tons of boosting mons that otherwise decimate stall like bish. It's a great safety net and I would argue that it provides even more to the stall archetype than The Premier Physical Wall Skarmory and most other stallmons tbh. It's nearly on par with chansey as far as what it brings to the table for stall teams, and I really don't think it should be ranked alongside stuff like hippo and normal zam.

 

[Random Passerby]

Anyway I want to ask why terrakion is being considered for a rise?. might just be me but Not much has changed for it. Sableye, clef, lando and garchomp are all still very common. That's not including monsters like diancie or fake out lop who utterly destroy lead sets. sure there's offencive sets but are they really that good? Really leaning on keeping it in B+ for now.

I'll post more on the rest later but I'm at work

Just my opinion but I think Terrakion is being nominated based on its Choice Band set which can 2HKO switch-ins like Clef, non-fully Def-invested Lando-T (most run Atk investment with Speed) and Garchomp (most Garchomp runs Offensive spreads anyway). Sure, Sab is a problem but it can't switch in recklessly either or Stone Edge 2HKOes.

The fact that Ttar, Bisharp and Kyu-B are still used a lot doesn't hurt either.

 

[Sylveon.]

​

Current Discussion Points:
Terrakion B+ -> A-
Mew B+ -> B
Nidoking B -> B+
Slowking B -> B+
Alakazam B -> B+
Hippowdon B -> B+
Mamoswine B- -> B
Metagross B- -> B
Raikou B -> B-
Mega Beedrill C+ -> C
Feraligatr C -> C+

-Terrakion for me deserves A- just due to its banded set which has almost no switch-ins(basically a fast band ttar without pursuit trapping perks), scarf has its niche but generally gets blocked by anything that has little defense and isn't weak to it. But still banded set is pretty good as far as I have used it.
-Mew is good at B+ just due to sheer unpredictability it brings, regular stallbreaker set is cute, but what basically makes it dangerous is its lure sets due to its vast coverage.
-Nidoking, I haven't used it in OU so can't comment.
-Slowking will always be inferior to slowbro in OU due to slowbro's ability to take pursuits better from the numerous strong pursuit trappers in OU. It checks keldeo better though due to its good spl def, but still B is more than good enough for it.
-Metagross, why would you use this thing ever when you can use its mega, it doesn't have any perks over mega metagross. Moreover its assault vest set is pretty meh as it fails to do anything substantial to most special attackers in OU. Also no need to say, it is outclassed as a stealth rocker. Shift it to C, I say.
-Hippowdon easily deserves a mention for B+ just due to its sheer bulk on both sides and being able to check lopunny and char-x effectively and not fearing random ice-hits unlike lando-t.
-Alakazam's only niche is to be able to take a hit using sash and maybe revenge kill. Life orb one has power but still its too frail and fails to gain any significant 1HKOes except STAB super-effectives.
-Raikou, man don't do that to raikou, apart from torn-t its most probably the best AV user in the tier, being able to check mega-mane and so many electrics. I understand its power is underwhelming but really you shouldn't be using raikou for powerful hits just as a decent pivot being able to scare away mons like keldeo due to that excellent speed tier.
-Mega Beedrill is strong and fast but its STAB coverage is piss poor, most walls laugh at its poison jab and not to mention its dies to anything and is weak to rocks, so a fast u-turn is cute but I nominate it for C(really you shouldn't be using mega-bee as your mega unless you really like bees)
-Feraligatr is cool and threatens quite a large amount of mons, but I have always felt crawdaunt is better at what it does despite of its inferior speed stat. That's just my opinion though. So C for me.

 

[QuickBH]

Can someone please tell me what makes Mega Manectric worse than all of the megas in A-? I can get M-Alakazam and M-Latias (kind of), but M-Manectric is one of the best offensive megas simply because of the amazing speedtier. Outspeeds Torn-T and outspeeds about every other mega. Can read the Chomp switch-in and Lando-T switch-in (and if you're really desperate, you can take a -1 EQ and 2 shot defensive varients of them, but generally you should have a gameplan to beat them beforehand) and provides a lot of momentum with volt-turn and can fit on a lot of teams thanks to it. It really makes no sense to me but I'd like to see the reasoning.

 

[eden]

-Mega Venusaur down to B+ - Mega Venusaur in general is solid and secures team versus a bunch of threats even if you decide to use the offensive set, but thing is the offensive set, outside of the few things it hard checks/counters has much less durability than expected and in a sand infested metagame doesn't have very reliable recovery(the same problem goes for a defensive set as well), while the defensive set leaves much to be desired at times with its lack of recovery and the fact that on the only play style defensive Mega Venusaur would be seen(i.e. stall) other Megas comete with it most notably Mega Sableye. Defensive Venusaur is spike bait, and checks only a few things that for the most part are already checked on Stall, while making teams basically lose to opposing hazard stacking stall via match up(so a bit of opportunity cost/not a very useful niche). However all things aside it is bulky,and reasonably powerful which is why I'm suggesting a drop any lower than B+, or at worst B.

 

[SaberSeven]

I've used Nidoking in OU and I see it as a pretty fearsome wall breaker with some crazy coverage to handle a good portion of the OU metagame. Sludge Wave nails Fairies like Clefable, Earth Power takes care of steel types not named Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or (Mega) Scizor which can be handled with Flamethrower. Ice Beam hits slower Landorus, Garchomp, and various dragons & flying types. Thunderbolt nails the bulky waters like Slowbro. From what I've seen, the meta has become a bit more in favor of balance which helps Nidoking a bit with its lacking speed to pick off or break a few walls for a partner to clean house. All in all, Nidoking should fit just fine in B+.

 

[Giagantic]

Can someone please tell me what makes Mega Manectric worse than all of the megas in A-? I can get M-Alakazam and M-Latias (kind of), but M-Manectric is one of the best offensive megas simply because of the amazing speedtier. Outspeeds Torn-T and outspeeds about every other mega. Can read the Chomp switch-in and Lando-T switch-in (and if you're really desperate, you can take a -1 EQ and 2 shot defensive varients of them, but generally you should have a gameplan to beat them beforehand) and provides a lot of momentum with volt-turn and can fit on a lot of teams thanks to it. It really makes no sense to me but I'd like to see the reasoning.

Okay, I don't write much in these threads but I am feeling irked by peoples feelings regarding how the viability has been run and should be run especially in regards to comparisons as a justification of their viability ranking.

First off, the viability ranking is a tool meant to primarily represent what is strong in the current metagame, as such comparing pokemon with vastly different roles, different attributes and ultimately those that perform differently is nearly pointless. Comparing Mega-Manectric to all of the higher megas in A- is fairly silly as that doesn't depict how it performs within the metagame which is what actually matters. You are simply making statistical comparisons that in theory should hold correct while in reality depict a vastly different truth, Mega-Manectric is just not that good in the current metagame, the prominence of bulkier Pokemon like T-tar, Heatran, Clefable have hurt M-Mane viability heavily and this aint a new trend rather this has held true for many months now which is why it initially fell from A to A- in the first place.

Second, for everyone following this don't use the viability thread as a means to boost a pokemon you like to a higher rank. There should be a reason why a pokemon is high ranking as the viability thread is a representation of what is strong and prominent within the given metagame! It is a tool for newer players to be referred to, not some egotistic representation of what you like to use and find good on your niche team. Don't just bring in copy pasta data calcs that poorly represents how a pokemon performs, bring replays, show results through actual battle or else anyone could make up BS arguments (as many have).

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

It is crazy how Clefable is the only mon ranked S.
Latios has always been top tier, and for good reasons we all know. So why did he drop to A+? I know Pursuit trapping is crazy rn, CB Ttar with that, but it cant be the only reason he dropped, right? He has everything you want in a mon: he has good typing, both defensively and offensively its only resisted by steels and the most common steels in the tier are burned by HP, he provides utility in being the best Deffoger in the tier, he hits hard and he lies in a great 110 speed tier, so what happened?

Edit: Forgot editing was a thing. Please forgive me for how I deleted my previous message.

 

[Sweep]

Hippowdon to B+ please. That thing is an awesome soft check for a variety of Pokemon, particularly electrics like Raikou and Maneater, and has a nice match up vs sand teams. I wish it had a better chance of keeping sr up against some common Defog users / didn't despise Sableye so much, but it isn't something that should keep Hippo all the way down in B. STAB earthquake ensures that it isn't super passive either.

Also LOL at mega swampert being ranked above omastar. As someone who has played rain a lot that is unbelievably inaccurate.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Hippowdon to B+ please. That thing is an awesome soft check for a variety of Pokemon, particularly electrics like Raikou and Maneater, and has a nice match up vs sand teams. I wish it had a better chance of keeping sr up against some common Defog users / didn't despise Sableye so much, but it isn't something that should keep Hippo all the way down in B. STAB earthquake ensures that it isn't super passive either.

Also LOL at mega swampert being ranked above omastar. As someone who has played rain a lot that is unbelievably inaccurate.

Hippo dropped because nobody now ask themselves how theyre going to deal with him when teambuilding, when the best Ground types in the tier are Chomper and Lando. Sure Hippo is super fat, but Chomp and Lando are much more versatile, both can set up Rocks, and both have great abilities to ensure they mess up the opposing Physical attackers. At least thats my guessing on why he dropped.

 

[HailFall]

It is crazy how Clefable is the only mon ranked S.
Latios has always been top tier, and for good reasons we all know. So why did he drop to A+? I know Pursuit trapping is crazy rn, CB Ttar with that, but it cant be the only reason he dropped, right? He has everything you want in a mon: he has good typing, both defensively and offensively its only resisted by steels and the most common steels in the tier are burned by HP, he provides utility in being the best Deffoger in the tier, he hits hard and he lies in a great 110 speed tier, so what happened?

Edit: Forgot editing was a thing. Please forgive me for how I deleted my previous message.

Latios counters are on literally every team and for good reason. It's very splashable, and it certainly deserves its position in a+, but ranking it the same as a Mon that spreads para easily and walls almost anything that isn't a wallbreaker isnt really justified imo. Latios doesn't have the advantage of crippling all its common switch's like clef does, and it drops to pursuit trapping. -2 latios is also setop fodder for a lot, but almost nothing that could set up on clef appreciates a para. These are the reasons I really think latios should stay A+.

 

[Analytic]

I think the metagame isn't kind at all to Hippowdon atm. A rise in mons like Grass-types and Rotom-W made popular due to prevelance of Sand Offense in the tier, the introduction of Volcanion, and the very fact that it's a very bad sapper of mometum due to its passiveness being easily exploited by being set up on, makes you question the choice of picking the pokemon over something like a Landorus or a Garchomp. Yes it checks Electric-types solidly, checking pretty much any physically oriented threat in the tier is a very nice quality to have. However, a Ground-type on a team introduces a weakness to water-types like Keldeo, Manaphy, Volcanion, so adding something like AV Tornadus-T or either Lati twins becomes pretty much mandatory. The latter provide good checks to electric-types regardless so it makes Hippowdon kinda redundant. Hippowdon also provides balance breakers like TG Manaphy, BU Talonflame, SD Landorus, SD Gliscor, SD M-Scizor, and a few others a plethora of opportunities to come in and just excerbate the team's matchup vs these aforementioned threats. Hence, I think Hippowdon should stay B