Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

I understand that a lot of people look forward to my post and I hope you'll agree with me that the wait was worth it. My reputation is not always easy to sustain, people have high expectations of me and I want to live up to them. Decide for yourself and me if I lived up to my name. I am going to do this a bit differently this time to make this post more receptive and engaging. You'll figure it out : ) enjoy :celebi:

:dialga origin: This may come as a surprise to you since it's gone under the radar ever since it was introduced. Many of you might not even recognize this Pokemon(Dialga-Origin). A staggering 680 BST with good enough distribution for any tier. Dialga-O has great coverage and useful stab combination that allows it to hit fairies and blow up Pokemon who don't resist Dragon. If you can look past it's strengths, it has major flaws holding it back. As a certified doctor, I feel confident to diagnose this Pokemon with FMSS. Another major flaw, Dialga-O is item restricted., meaning it can't change it's item. Simialr to Ogerpon forms but it's item only boost it's stab moves by 1.2x. Dialga's main role would be a bulky offensive Stealth Rocker. Similar to Mega Tyranitar, Dialga hits very hard and is very tanky which allows him to trade well verses offensive Pokemon that'd normally threaten your defenisve core. Dragon Steel is generally a good typing if it's backed by strong offensive stats, it's not 4x weak to anything, it has a lot of great resist that all teams can appreciate and it's capable of living most unboosted neutral and x2 hits when it's healthy.

*technical difficulties*

These calcs are here for reference to help give you an idea how well it's stats hold up verse relevant meta pokemon.

Longevity? Hazards are the most improtant and easiest way to make progress in most 6v6 singles metagames. dialga-O not only lacks the ability to neutralize hazards by wearing boots or mitigating damage with leftovers, but it also has no reliable recovery to compensate for it's hazard weakness. It is worth noting that Dialga-O is immune to toxic which grants it one form of immunity to chip damage. This attribute doesn't make up for it's lack of recovery and hazard weakness, therefore I am giving it a C for longevity.

Unique Traits? Dialga has a bad ability due to the fact it's longevity is poor, generally you aren't going to be stalling pp as a wincon. It has a Generation1 movepool, no notable signatures. Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Stealth Rocks, Thunderwave, Toxic, Eartquake and Earthpower. However, it's move slots are limited due to Stealth Rock being mandatory, you're forced to sacrifice certain matchups based on what you pick. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt will most likely be dropped unless they're used over flash cannon which makes Draco Meteor less threatening against teams with Fairies. I am not doing + or - for these tiers, just S being the highest and D being the lowest. That being said, B for Unique traits.

Versatility? Dialga-O is not versatile at all. It doesn't have viable setup moves like Calm Mind or Nasty Plot and you can't run items on Dialga which removes Choice sets, Z moves out of the equation. I think it would be fairly effecient at what it does anyways so this isn't as critical as the other categories. This is easily it's worse trait, D tier.

Splashable? This section is more theoretical so it shouldn't be taken serious but a Pokemon's splashability contriubtes to it's viability greatly. I mentioned earlier that this Pokemon is comparable to Mega-Tyranitar without Pursuit. Melmetal is perhaps a better comparison (s/o xurk) with Stealth Rocks. All these Pokemon are very good at trading, primarily used on Bulky Offense and Balance. C tier for splashability.

MetaGamerGRRRR? This section is based off how well this Pokemon matches up verses the metagame. I think I speak for everyone that more Steel types ar always welcomed into the tier. Additional Tapu Lele checks and potentially more options for Balance outside of Ferrothorn is more important now than ever because of the recent suspect test results. Dialga-Origin is capable of checking Wellspring similarlly to Ferrothorn but trades Longevity (and Spikes) for a more aggressive Stealth Rocker. Dialga-Origin matches up well verse every Defogger and Rapid Spinner. It can get Stealth Rocks up for it's team and trade well into Great Tusk, Landorus, (Non Z-Fight Torn)Tornadus-Therian, Zapdos, Corviknight etc. I give it S for this section.

Compatible? The section focuses on overlapping slots and team synergy whereas splashability focuses on which types of teams Dialga-O fits on. Ex; rain, screens, balance, stall. It's never bad to have Stealth Rocks available, more often than I'd like to admit, I find myself trying overly compressing my Stealth Rockers with moves such as Toxic, Thunder Wave, Defog, Taunt and then most of the time thes Pokemon are locked into two slots already which makes it difficult to choose which move I want. Ex: Landorus Earthquake and U-Turn, Tornadus-T Hurricane and U-Turn + Knock or NP + Coverage. Many top tier Pokemon woud appreciate it's presence, freeing up moveslots for them and maintaining an important role on it's team. (S/O gamer but swag) Anonnymous person brought to my attention the potential for Dialga-O + Alomomola. If we look past the obvious, Dialga-O deals with some Pokemon that usually exploit Alomomola which consist of, Wellspring, Ursaluna and generally any strong breaker that Dialga-O can threaten by outspeeding or teraing to eliminate it. Dialga-O has earned another A for this section.

Longevity: C
Unique Traits: B
Versatility: D
Splashability: C
Matchups: S
Compatibility: A

Overall: B+
Brah we get it u hate :ogerpon-wellspring: we do not have to let this demon into the tier (literally only chansey and blissey can switch into draco from this thing what)
 

thebestever543

I COULD BE BANNED!
I'm gonna start with I don't even know what prompted this. We don't exactly have a need for a fat, 150 spatk wallbreaker that can handpick what "checks" it defensively based on coverage. It wouldn't be an offensive rocker, just a wallbreaker that blows shit up. There'd be no reason to waste a moveslot on rocks over coverage. Rocks would neither be mandatory nor would it ever bother with them. Oh and you missed the Adamant Crystal boosts for those calcs. Not versatile? Yeah try guessing what last two moves it would run after stabs. Flamethrower? Tbolt? Icebeam? Earth Power? Let's just not with this and say we did yeah?

Moving onto something more relevant, since Wellspring is remaining in the tier I'd like to shift focus and talk about some pokemon/sets I find underrated in the metagame right now just for fun and hopefully to get some fresh discussion going.

:Skeledirge:
Not a terribly common pokemon right now and I definitely get why, but after having a rough time laddering during the suspect test and finally just trying a Skeledirge Balance team after facing one too many while using Zama, It does bring some useful qualities for Balance, helping against the likes of Volcarona, Iron Valiant, Zamazenta, Mega Scizor (watch for knock on the way in though), Gouging Fire (Tera Fairy helps a lot here), with Tera Fairy also helping vs various other physical threats it can threaten to burn. I think there's some room for exploration with this one too (I saw someone try Encore vs opposing fat which was intereresting), but also Roar, Alluring Voice and even slotting Earth Power to not be helpless vs Heatran.

:Latios-Mega: :Latias-Mega:
Okay not necessarily underrated since they've been slowly climbing up the rankings, but I still just wanted to highlight them and appreciate what they bring to bulkier teams. MLatios in particular feels really solid right now, with the standard Draco/Aura/Luster/Roost set being a wallbreaker that isn't too easy to pivot around. I've seen a few substitute MLatios on ladder which was unexpectedly awkward to play around.

:Darkrai:
No Darkrai is not underrated at all, it's really strong right now but I've been seeing so many on ladder just throwing specs out or using Hypnosis sets and it's a shame because there's room I feel for utility focused roles too. Knock Off I think is genuinely a usable option that can help soften up would be switch ins like Zama or Garg and make them easier to get around later. I also think Wisp is a cool tech for luring similar checks and making some progress.

:Slowking-Galar:
Just wanted to highlight that this mon's movepool is beyond big and it just feels super versatile. Trick+Black Sludge was a fun option last gen that still is pretty okay, but I also think AV sets aren't used enough. Only ran into one during suspect laddering but it proved surprisingly annoying just because four attacks is more annoying to switch around.
Your definition of versatility is definitely skewed. Prime examples of versatile pokemon, look at Landorus-Therian in any generation, gen 7 magearna, Tornadus-Therian historically has been pretty versatile. When I say versatile, it means set variety, and different functions. If you want to rethink your answer and admit you didn’t give this response any thought than I’m happy to continue this on good terms, you can remove the condescending tone while you’re at it.

I removed the calcs, a couple of people pointed that out to me. Thank you and I apologize for the confusion on that part.
 
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Your definition of versatility is definitely skewed. Prime examples of versatile pokemon, look at Landorus-Therian in any generation, gen 7 magearna, Tornadus-Therian historically has been pretty versatile. When I say versatile, it means set variety, and different functions. If you want to rethink your answer and admit you didn’t give this response any thought than I’m happy to continue this on good terms, you can remove the condescending tone while you’re at it. I made my post simple and easy to comprehend for people like you, I’m not going to be lectured by one of them.
I mean, if we look at Dialga Origin it can be pretty versatile. From what I could see, there are multiple different sets it could run. (TBH, only really the last part of the sentence is condescending at all, and its only a little, I think that was a little bit of an overreaction)
Set-up? Iron defense and Body press are there, or you could use bulk up sets if needed (100 base attack is more than enough).
Defensive set with toxic, stealth rock, dragon tail and a stab move.
Full out special attacker with 4 attacks.
Mixed set to abuse mons such blissey or AV Iron Crown that try to wall it on the special side.
Offensive stealth rock lead with steel beam to set fast tempo if needed.

And don't even get me started on the special coverage.
Aura Sphere
Dragon Stab
Steel Stab
Earth power
Flamethrower
Hidden Power (obviously)
Ice Beam
Power Gem
Thunderbolt
I'm sorry, but even if we go with just the special attacker moveset, Dialga Origin is so versatile. Versatility covers how different its checks can be, not just how many sets that do different things does it have. You are thinking about its role from a Ubers perspective, where it is outclassed by so many mons. However, in an OU context, 150 base special attack with amazing bulk, decent speed and wide coverage (also, stabs are boosted 1.2x, so even more powerful) is insane. Dialga Origin is a bad Uber, but that doesn't necessarily mean its a good drop for OU.
 

thebestever543

I COULD BE BANNED!
I mean, if we look at Dialga Origin it can be pretty versatile. From what I could see, there are multiple different sets it could run. (TBH, only really the last part of the sentence is condescending at all, and its only a little, I think that was a little bit of an overreaction)
Set-up? Iron defense and Body press are there, or you could use bulk up sets if needed (100 base attack is more than enough).
Defensive set with toxic, stealth rock, dragon tail and a stab move.
Full out special attacker with 4 attacks.
Mixed set to abuse mons such blissey or AV Iron Crown that try to wall it on the special side.
Offensive stealth rock lead with steel beam to set fast tempo if needed.

And don't even get me started on the special coverage.
Aura Sphere
Dragon Stab
Steel Stab
Earth power
Flamethrower
Hidden Power (obviously)
Ice Beam
Power Gem
Thunderbolt
I'm sorry, but even if we go with just the special attacker moveset, Dialga Origin is so versatile. Versatility covers how different its checks can be, not just how many sets that do different things does it have. You are thinking about its role from a Ubers perspective, where it is outclassed by so many mons. However, in an OU context, 150 base special attack with amazing bulk, decent speed and wide coverage (also, stabs are boosted 1.2x, so even more powerful) is insane. Dialga Origin is a bad Uber, but that doesn't necessarily mean its a good drop for OU.
I don’t see the value in running ID press personally. It’s not just outclassed but there’s some major flaws in that set.
I’ll admit bulk up is not something I was impressed with at first but I could see its value behind screens.
It could definitely use heavy slam or earthquake but it’s function practically remains the same. You’re an offensive stealth rocker, tasked with setting up rocks and denying hazard removers from removing hazards lol. I understand he is capable of more than that, 150 special attack + gen 1 coverage is insane. Choosing that coverage is where it gets tricky, I’d argue you’re locked into your stab for these sets. And I’d also argue stealth rocks makes the most sense on him because of his ability to beat defoggers. However, why not use 4a since he is so strong? That’s a fair question, besides the fact that I think you stand to gain much more if you use rocks, it is immediately threatening and that is it. You can’t boost past fat so you’re not making progress at that point. It sounds great verse balance and perhaps it’s broken, I definitely don’t think offense is incapable of dealing with it. Balance can position or pivot out into attackers like it’s always done. Look at Ursluna, it’s got no actual switch ins. Stab + fire punch is all the coverage it needs and it has access to sd and bulk up. Somehow it is not broken, maybe because of zama. But we have to deal

Seriously no offense, I don’t agree on your definition of versatility or maybe I don’t understand it. Heavy Slam, Draco Meteor, Flamethrower, Earthpower, I tried to be most favorable to your argument. Garg, Ting, Kanto Slowking lol (I recognize this is a bit far fetched), Deoxy-D, Chansey, Clodsire. Maybe I’m missing more relevant mons but these are all capable of switching in to recover the following turn. Offensively theres plenty of checks to keep this thing balanced and enough Pokémon who can pivot in/out. This is best case scenario, otherwise dropping coverage and you’re much less threatening. I feel like we’ve discounted much of what could happen in a real game. It’s especially relevant with this Mon because the calcs don’t tell the full story here. Honestly, we should be looking at what can ohko this Pokemon. Thanks for the response, hope to see a reply when I come back.
 
And I’d also argue stealth rocks makes the most sense on him because of his ability to beat defoggers
It makes no sense to waste a moveslot on something this powerful when you can relegate rocks elsewhere and let it focus on offense. You gain nothing from running rocks on it and lose a moveslot to make it even more stupid to pivot around.

it is immediately threatening and that is it. You can’t boost past fat so you’re not making progress at that point. It sounds great verse balance and perhaps it’s broken, I definitely don’t think offense is incapable of dealing with it. Balance can position or pivot out into attackers like it’s always done. Look at Ursluna, it’s got no actual switch ins. Stab + fire punch is all the coverage it needs and it has access to sd and bulk up. Somehow it is not broken, maybe because of zama. But we have to deal
Balance and BO would severely struggle with it, and BO would have to make awkward trads to try and contain it. It doesn't need to boost past fat because what does fat do vs it? Unless you wanna run junk like Clodsire/Chansey there really isn't much an option beyond pivoting and hoping to bait the right move. Adamant Crystal Draco straight 2HKOs Clod with a spike up and Chansey sucks. Balance isn't pivoting around it comfortably as it outruns majority defensive pokes on those teams and they have to hope they guess right when switching around. Offense can "handle" it, but they still will be forced to trade at least one mon to weaken it and if Dia-O has something like a Mola in the back then it can just get healed back up.

The comparisons to Luna are flawed and always will be with all due respect. Luna is not broken because it is hindered and held back by a miserable speed stat, poor longevity and a typing that doesn't give it easy entry, thus requiring aggressive play and switch support.

Seriously no offense, I don’t agree on your definition of versatility or maybe I don’t understand it. Heavy Slam, Draco Meteor, Flamethrower, Earthpower, I tried to be most favorable to your argument. Garg, Ting, Kanto Slowking lol (I recognize this is a bit far fetched), Deoxy-D, Chansey, Clodsire. Maybe I’m missing more relevant mons but these are all capable of switching in to recover the following turn.
Versatility isn't just about entire sets, but varations on sets. Like for example a standard set like Draco/Flash/Icebeam/Flamethrower, then Draco/Flash/Flamethrower/Tbolt, or Draco/Flash/EPower/IceBeam and so on. And that's just standard. Stuff like dragon tail on hazard stack teams to knock around switch ins and rack up chip over and over, or offensive TR to destroy offense.

Garg is not an answer at all what. Kanto-Slowking is flat out bad and not worth using over Galar Slowking, Ting-Lu is abusable by knock spamming teammates such as Torn-T or toxic users. Deo-D is not viable nor can it answer it, Chansey is awful, Clodsire gets 2HKOd by Crystal boosted Draco with spikes up (and is also bad).

More than any of this, there simply is no reason to consider dropping this mon at all. It adds nothing to the tier, it's too powerful in its own right and we have enough big hitters to handle as is. The tier, aside from one or maybe two mons, is in a nice spot and we don't need to add something like this.

If you want to rethink your answer and admit you didn’t give this response any thought
Excuse you...?
 
Seriously, why is anyone talking about Dialga-Origin?

Look at this calc:

252 SpA Adamant Crystal Dialga-Origin Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 204-241 (44 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

It's a mon that 2HKOes Clodsire with a bit of chip, so basically, the only remotely serviceable switch-ins are Chansey (a bad mon), Ting-Lu, Primarina (which has very low usage in NatDex), and Assault Vest Slowking-Galar since its STABs alone nuke most of the tier. Unlike Archaludon, Dialga-Origin is faster than Great Tusk and one-shots it unless Tusk Teras. Stealth Rock on Dialga-Origin is just bad. Using it purely as a wallbreaker is where it's at.

Anything can look balanced if you use its worst set.
 
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Oculars

I CANT BE FADED
is a Tiering Contributor
Hey heres some mons I think are criminally underrated right now.

:sv/iron-treads:

I started off as a huge treads hater but came to realize this guy is crucial on most rain teams right now as typically one of the biggest problems facing rain is that they start out with bad momentum and need to play around the opponents lead, the eject button sets on iron treads gives you a great switchin to common leads vs pelliper such as :tapu-koko: :tapu-lele: :zapdos: :raging-bolt: and almost guarantees you take back momentum right away on turn 2.

:sv/hoopa-unbound:

Another rediculously hard to switch in to mon, people have often considered it a noob trap,there are more sets than just braindead band however and a bulk mixed assault vest set can serve as a great check to special attackers while forcing progress against everything using psychic noise, knock off and coverage moves.

:sv/enamorus:
Another set that fell off as soon as it dropped was stellar enamorus, this mon can serve as a breaker against any terastalized wall using choice specs and tera blast stellar offering a catch all counter to different cheese tera types on AIDS mons like electric and ghost :garganacl: and any off meta choices that catch your team by suprise. Tera is a trash mechanic that should have been banned and this serves to counter a lot of the variance that can easily cheese a game you deserved to win.

:sv/Ogerpon-cornerstone:
Basically does what :ogerpon-wellspring: does with the added benefit of avoiding the dragon tera spam that people use to counter :ogerpon-wellspring:

:sv/kleavor:
bad typing may hold it back however band sets especially tera psychic with psycho cut can catch off guard many would be checks like :great-tusk:and kleavor has a huge variety of very strong coverage moves coming off an insane 135 base attack, and getting up rocks while attacking will never not be good.
:sv/quaquaval:
another mon thats overlooked due to its similarities to :urshifu-rapid-strike:specifically a psychic seed tera flying set can be lethal with a combination of sd aqua step cc and acrobatics, its basically like a stronger slow hawlucha that can snowball with moxie
 

Nashrock

peaceful death
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Moderator
I started off as a huge treads hater but came to realize this guy is crucial on most rain teams right now as typically one of the biggest problems facing rain is that they start out with bad momentum and need to play around the opponents lead,
I want to mention that treads can actually work in non-rain offense as a good pivot against common threats like lele koko and rbolt. It sort of suffers from 4MSS, which is another way to say it has many viable tools to load, from knock, spin, vs, rock, to even ice z for lando and glisc
 
Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Rising Voltage
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psyshock
my only purpose playing this tier is to use aloraichu
the most batshit insane wallbreaker when paired with koko imo
don't believe me?here are some mad calcs
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 702-827 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Raichu-Alola Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 525-619 (148.3 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Raichu-Alola Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Unaware Clodsire: 447-530 (96.5 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Clefable in Electric Terrain: 499-588 (126.6 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Electric Terrain: 512-603 (129.9 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 334-394 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
raw damage is not the only thing this fella has
with surge surfer this guy reaches 618 speed,outspeeding everything even at +1 i think

the future is now
use kokoraichu
 

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