M&M Mix and Mega

[xavgb]

Previously led by FlameUser64, Ghoul King, Grains of Salt & Chloe

Banner graciously provided by Jackii ​

Rules:
Mix and Mega is an Ubers-based metagame that allows you to use any Mega Stone (or Orb) on any fully-evolved Pokémon, with the usual limit of one Mega Evolution removed. When that Pokémon then Mega Evolves or undergoes Primal Reversion, it undergoes the same stat modifications that the original user of that Mega Stone or Orb does, along with its ability and any type changes that the Mega Evolved or Primal Reversion form has compared to the base species.

For example:

Mega Stones:

List of Stones

Banned Stones

Beedrillite (+60 Attack, -30 Special Attack, +70 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | 11 Kg)

Blazikenite (+40 Attack, +10 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Speed Boost | N/A | N/A)

Gengarite (+20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Shadow Tag | N/A | N/A)

Kangaskanite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Parental Bond | N/A | +20 Kg)

Mawilite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +40 Special Defense | Huge Power | N/A | +12 Kg)

Medichamite (+40 Attack, +10 Defense, + 20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Pure Power | N/A | N/A)

Pidgeotite (+5 Defense, +65 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | No Guard | N/A | +11 Kg)

Allowed Stones

Abomasite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, -30 Speed | Snow Warning | N/A | +49.5 Kg)

Absolite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +40 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +2 Kg)

Aerodactylite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +20 Kg)

Aggronite (+30 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Defense | Filter | +

| +35 Kg)

Alakazite (+20 Defense,+40 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +30 Speed | Trace | N/A | N/A)

Altarianite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack | Pixilate | +

| N/A)

Ampharosite (+20 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Mold Breaker | +

| N/A)

Audinite (+40 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +40 Special Defense | Healer | +

| +1 Kg)

Banettite (+50 Attack, +10 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Prankster | N/A | +0.5 Kg )

Blastoisinite (+20 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense | Mega Launcher | N/A | +15.6 Kg)

Cameruptite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense, -20 Speed | Sheer Force | N/A | +100.5 Kg)

Charizardite X (+46 Attack, +33 Defense, +21 Special Attack | Tough Claws | +

| +20 Kg)

Charizardite Y (+20 Attack, +50 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Drought | N/A | +10 Kg)

Diancite (+60 Attack, -40 Defense, +60 Special Attack, -40 Special Defense, +60 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +19 Kg)

Galladite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Speed | Inner Focus | N/A | +4.4Kg)

Garchompite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Sand Force | N/A | N/A)

Gardevoirite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Pixilate | N/A | N/A)

Glalitite (+40 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Speed | Refrigerate | N/A | +93.7 Kg)

Gyaradosite (+30 Attack, +30 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Mold Breaker | +

| +70 Kg)

Heracronite (+60 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Skill Link | N/A | +8.5 Kg)

Houndoominite (+40 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Solar Power | N/A | +14.5 Kg)

Latiasite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Levitate | N/A | +12 Kg)

Latiosite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense | Levitate | N/A | +10 Kg)

Lopunnite (+60 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Speed | Scrappy | +

| -5 Kg)

Lucarionite (+35 Attack, +18 Defense, +25 Special Attack, +22 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | +3.5 Kg)

Manectite (+20 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +30 Speed | Intimidate | N/A | +3.8 Kg)

Metagrossite (+10 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +40 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +392.9 Kg)

Mewtwonite X (+80 Attack, +10 Defense, +10 Special Defense | Steadfast | +

| +5 Kg)

Mewtwonite Y (+40 Attack, -20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Insomnia | N/A | -89 Kg)

Pinsirite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | +

| +4 Kg)

Sablenite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +50 Special Defense, -30 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +150 Kg)

Salamencite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | N/A | +10 Kg)

Sceptilite (+25 Attack, +10 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +25 Speed | Lightning Rod | +

| +3 Kg)

Scizorite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Technician | N/A | +7 Kg)

Sharpedonite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +15 Special Attack, +25 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Strong Jaw | N/A | +41.5 Kg)

Slowbronite (+70 Defense, +30 Special Attack | Shell Armor | N/A | +31.5 Kg)

Steelixite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Special Defense | Sand Force | N/A | +340 Kg)

Swampertite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Swift Swim | N/A | +20.1 Kg)

Tyranitarite (+30 Attack, +40 Defense, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Sand Stream | N/A | +53 Kg)

Venusaurite (+18 Attack, +40 Defense, +22 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Thick Fat | N/A | +55.5 Kg)

Blue Orb (+50 Attack, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Primordial Sea | N/A | +78 Kg)

Red Orb (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack | Desolate Land | +

| +49.7 Kg)

Dragon Ascent (+30 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Delta Stream | N/A | +185.5 Kg)

Banlist:
Clauses: Ubers Clauses, Mega Stone / Orb Clause (only one of each stone on a team)
General Bans: Baton Pass, Electrify, Shadow Tag
Banned Stones: Beedrillite, Blazikenite, Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Mawilite, Medichamite, Pidgeotite
Pokemon that can't Mega Evolve: Arceus, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N, Deoxys-S, Dialga, Dragonite, Giratina, Groudon*, Ho-Oh, Kyogre*, Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Lugia, Lunala, Marshadow, Mewtwo*, Naganadel, Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Palkia, Pheromosa, Rayquaza, Regigigas, Reshiram, Slaking, Solgaleo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Zygarde with Power Construct.

* indicates that this Pokémon is still permitted to hold native Mega Stones.

FAQ:
Q: How many Pokémon may I mega evolve on a team?
A: You may Mega Evolve any number of Pokemon on the same team.

Q: Do Orbs activate instantly on switch-in?
A: Yes, if you use Red Orb or Blue Orb, the transformation occurs instantly upon switch-in.

Q: How do Mega Stones that add types function on Pokémon that are given a secondary type equivalent to their primary type?
A: If you use a Mega Stone or Orb that gives you a secondary typing that's the same as your primary typing, you no longer have a secondary typing (ie: Red Orb Charizard).

Q: Why does my Ash Greninja / Meloetta-Pirouette revert to its base form upon Mega Evolution?
A: Mega Evolutions cannot be based off of alternate in-game form changes, and hence they revert to their original forme.

Q: Can Knock Off, Trick, e.t.c. be used to remove a Mega Stone from its holder?
A: A Mega Stone or Orb cannot in any way removed from its holder if the holder can Mega Evolve / Primal Revert with it, regardless of whether the holder is the "correct" species or not.

Resources:
- Sample Teams
- Resources Thread

- Viability Rankings​

- Set Viability Rankings​

- Role Compendium​

- Checks Compendium​

- Speed Tiers​

- Threatlist​

- Ban and Suspect Archive​

- Mix and Mega Damage Calculator by Kris
- ORAS Mix and Mega

- Official Mix and Mega Discord

Council:

Chazm

In The Hills

Stresh (Leader)

 

[xavgb]

SAMPLE TEAMS

Rules for Posting:

• Be sure to test the team you post in tournaments and on the ladder. This isn't an absolute rule, but teams should have reached at least top 20 in the ladder, and a GXE of 70+ shouldn't be too much to ask for.
• Be sure this team is easy to pick up on and newer players can still use it and learn. Your team could be amazing, the best ever, but if it's too hard to play with unless you're experienced, it's not going to be allowed.
• Posting replays also will help people see how to play with your team (not required, but is recommended.)
• Follow the proper format when posting. I'll fix minor errors, but don't make me completely rewrite it.

Format for posting:

Playstyle (offense, stall, etc)
Team export (in hide tags)
Short description on how the team works.


Sample Teams:

-Zygarde + Entei Bulky Offense by Chazm


-Tapu Koko Bulky Offense by xavgb


-Mamoswine Offense by xavgb and Catalystic


-Blissey Balance by In The Hills


-Palossand Stall by Pigeons

 

[Patrick Rice]

Just wondering what's the idea behind unbanning regigigas? Base 160 attack without a mega stone and using any stone gets rid of its crap ability. Absolite with 180 attack 140 speed and magic bounce makes it a really really annoying pain train that can't be stopped by status and has the 110/110/110 bulk to shrug of an espeed. Loopunite stab on drain punch with a stupid high 210 attack and a totally useable 130 base speed. The only things it's missing are reliable recovery and a boosting move. It's got all the coverage it needs to make a huge impact in mnm

 

[Jajoken]

Pidgeotite Darkrai is going to be...terrifying. Probably would've been the best stone for it anyway, if it was legal in Gen 6, but completely negating the precipitous accuracy drop for Dark Void in Gen 7 is impossible to pass up. Add an accurate Focus Blast, Nasty Plot, blazing base 145 Speed and a disgusting base 200 Special Attack and you've got a threat on your hands.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Honestly, I think Darkrai is definitely worth a quick ban. It's a better Gengar in pretty much all regards, and that's a mon that's already in the top rung of the meta.
A Zygarde or Thousand Arrows suspect is pretty likely now, considering using a Steel mon as a wall is less appealing, now that it can hit the levitating ones for at least neutral. Easily the scariest setup sweeper in the current meta.
There's probably a ton more broken threats, but I'll wait until the banlist here settles down a little (which it probably will very quickly), at which point I'll go over every single mega stone. Until then, let me speak about the Ultra Beasts a little.

Nihilego sounds like the easiest Latiasite of our lives to slap on. Then the type becomes pretty solid, actually, resisting the two most popular -ates and granting an EQ immunity. Though Slowbronite would make the physical bulk far more serviceable.

Guzzlord sounds pretty nice with this whole idea, given its gargantuan HP stat. Sablenite is a fantastic option, though Aggronite and Altarianite are worth looks as it changes that double Pixispeed weakness into a neutral hit with the former, and gives it a hard hitting STAB option with the latter. Also, that movepool is huge.

Celesteel simply wants a Blue Orb. It wishes it has Regenerator for this meta, but alas, no healing for you(besides Rest). That physical movepool is incredibly nice, but losing lefties really hurts this mon, even more than it hurts Ferrothorn. It's certainly still usable, but Wish support is mandatory in order to use this well now.

Buzzwole (shoutouts to your avatar, Jajoken) has a few options. It could go for a Blue Orb to round out its bulk and make it hit really hard physically, Aggronite in order to give this an actually good typing, or an -ate stone for sheer wallbreaking potential, Buzzwole can do a lot... in the physical department. It's not going to be taking on Red Orb Raikou in its lifetime.

Pheromosa is painfully obvious. Lopunnite. DONE. Screw missing HJK with Ghost switch-ins. Hit them hard instead. This might be even nastier offensively than Terrakion.

Katarna desperately wants to keep that typing for the sake of defense. Blue Orb is good for the same reason it is on Scizor, Lucarionite is always a good option on these offensive mons, and Lopunnite does change the typing so you are -ate weak (bad), but it also grants a terrifying offensive boost to Sacred Sword and that crazy offense (good).

Xurkitree... is in a really awkward spot. It has tools to use several incredibly potent combinations, but its movepool is very strange to work around here. Its best special Normal move is Round, which is simply heartbreaking. Tri Attack, which does open it up for -ate sets, which are pretty good. Nontherless, it has a few other options. It learns Zap Cannon, so Pidgeotite is a good option for just nuking things with paralysis. Absolite allows it to outspeed a few slower threats better, Diancite does that even better (but I wouldn't recommend it, due to the awful bulk you have remaining) and then the one I personally recommend... Audinite. Yes, Audinite. Xurkitree actually appreciates these boosts greatly, and gives it Dazzling Gleam STAB and a nice defensive type. It works best as a wallbreaker, and Tail Glow even lets it make Blissey cry tears of pain with this or the Pidgeotite set.

 

[Patrick Rice]

I'm 1000% percent ok with a zygarde suspectA pixelate setup sweeper with espeed is already pretty scary. When it's got thousand arrows to butt rape any steel that thinks they can wall it that's not ok. Darkrai and gigas should be quick banned before the ladder gets up or as soon as it does. Darkrai for no guard void bullshittery and a boostable huge special attack and it has chances to boost off the switches it makes with void and gigas because it's fucking regigigas without the crap slow start

 

[thdhted]

I'm honestly surprised that we haven't been discussing Banetite at all since SuMo came out. I see it jumping at LEAST one tier in overall viability, with it potentially jumping up to A+/S.

Let's look at what it does(yes, most of this is obvious, but this is for newcomers): A large boost of 50 to attack, with modest boosts of 10 to all other stats bar Sp. Def, which is +20. Grants the ability Prankster, which grants priority to all status moves, but now fails when prankster status moves are aimed at a dark type.
What really, massively buffs this stone is the fact that Prankster now activates turn one, meaning pokemon are no longer forced to run protect in order to use the stone effectively, meaning that Sleep/status-inducers, Parting shot users(pretty much pangoro, but now includes Alolan Persian and Silvally.), and support 'mons get far more effective now that they're not affected by their base speed when using prankster. Dark types/Gyradosite users may end up becoming more popular as a result of this, but Fighting-type coverage can be used on more offensively inclined sets, and Loppunite users can also be run as a counter to said dark types.

Looking at this new buff, I've devised some sets based around this stone that get more effective now:

Breloom @ Banettite
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Spore
- Leech Seed/Seed Bomb/Drain Punch

Everyone's favorite Boxing Shroom/Sleep spreader gets even more annoying now, able to force something to nap, or Sub up on the switch, allowing it to start Focus Punching anything that dares to face it behind a sub. Or you could run a sweeper set using Bulk Up/Swords Dance, though priority users are sure to be a problem.

Mew @ Banettite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- U-turn/Zen Headbutt
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

Stallbreaker/Support Mew gets a new lease on life with the upgraded banetite, allowing Mew to shut down set up sweepers and walls alike. Mew has all kinds of tools, so more offensive sets can also be used effectively as well.

Pangoro @ Banettite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Earthquake/Gunk Shot/Superpower/Taunt

Banetite Pangoro has always been something of a gimmick in MnM. A great idea, but the forced protect slot has always let it down. Now, Pangoro gets to truly shine like it wants to. It has Parting Shot to pivot around, allowing teammates to switch in and set up, or force something else out, as well as taunt to shut down sweepers/sleepers/Pidgeotenite Gengar. It can also run a Bulk Up/SD set, but has to rely on drain punch for recovery, and has to run from most -ate users. It has a great set of STABs, incuding access to Fighting STAB, meaning Dark types cannot switch in freely, and solid overall bulk. Definitely neat.


That's all I can think of offhand, but I'm sure there's more stuff to consider. We've got plenty of new stuff to try out, so go out there and experiment folks!

 

[Darth Manaphy]

The only negative though, you got to remember that Dark types are immune to Prankster so like you have all Dark types as well as all Gyradosite users just totally laugh at attempts to status them or even do anything to them with Prankster.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I think I mentioned this before...

SCREW -ATESPEED (Tapu Lele) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast / Thunder / Energy Ball (depending on needs)

Stats: 70 / 120 / 93 / 155 / 115 / 117

Psychic Surge is a great Ability that prevents you from being hit by pesky -atespeeds and Prankster shenanigans. Because of this, Tapu Lele can be a great sweeper because of the Ability to immune to priorities AND have a very powerful Psychic + Psyshock. Proof of power:

252 SpA Adaptability Lucarionite Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 294-348 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Needs Modest to deal more than 50%)

252 SpA Adaptability Lucarionite Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon in Psychic Terrain: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The drawback is, if you mega, your Psychic Surge Ability is gone, but the Psychic terrain stays for 5 turns. So you only have 5 turns to sweep while being immune to priority and have a boosted Psychic + Psyshock.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm going to be requesting two things:

1) An immediate re-ban of Dynamic Punch.
2) At least a suspect on Zap Cannon, if not a ban.

Dynamic Punch in combination with Pidgeotnite will become super chatter. The 100% confusion and 100% accuracy with 100 base power gives incredible power plus access to hax turns it into an even more broken chatter.

Zap Cannon is literally uber twave with No Guard, and especially with para and confusion from Dynamic Punch leaves battle to hax instead of skill. Crazy damage and confusion and para means all you need is a little luck and you can win any battle.

Both confusion and paralysis suffered nerfs this generation. Electric only halves speed now, this is important. Dynamic Punch is far less effective now that you went from a 50% chance to hit yourself to only a 30% chance. We'll see how it goes, for now the answer is no on both. The RNG argument only goes as far because it collies with the metagames desire to be as open as possible.

 

[Niadev]

Why are Cress, Kyube and Regi unbanned lmao? The latter two I can understand but why Cress? If anything it's better because the -ates got nerfed, meaning that it can be harder to break. Regi is now on the level of Slaking because of the Mega buff meaning Slow Start doesn't affect it whatsoever, and the only nerf to Kyube is the -ate nerf. It's still got a 170 base attak stat backed 122 base power STAB attack and that's going to sting anything not named physdef Sablenite Cress (yes it is that filthy bulky).

Speaking of unbans, Darkrai? Pidgeotite Darkrai doesn't give a damn about the dark void nerf, and can gain style points for using Hypnosis too, as well as boasting Nasty Plot and great coverage. Why use Gengar, an already ridiculous Pokemon, when this exists lmao. Fortunately, that's the only set I see being broken (though Sablenite Bliss probably handles Pidgeotite Darkrai dandily and Pixispeed drops it), as no other set can adequately use sleep moves. It's still a great NP sweeper regardless of set due to pretty great coverage.

The -ate nerf has definitely neutered -atespeeders. Not to the point of unviability, not by a long shot, but it'll probably be a lot easier on sweepers like Blazikenite Lando-T, who was often checked by -atespeed after a bit of weakening, not to mention Blazikenite Excadrill's niche has been reduced minorly. Genesect got hit by it, as it's Techno Blast and -atespeeds hit marginally weaker. Hoopa-U LOVES the mega buff, as it no longer needs Protect on Diancite sets so it can run something a bit more useful, like extra coverage. While Altarianite Zygarde lost a bit of oomph to it's Extreme Speed, it gained Thousand Arrows, enabling it to circumvent Blue Orb Skarm, one of it's better answers in ORAS.

Pheromosa might be ok in terms of balance, actually. Pixilate and Aerilate Extreme Speed just vaporises it and we already have Diancite Hoopa-U so it should be fine lmao. -ate stones are mediocre at best as ones that change the second typing remove it's actually good fighting type. Lopunnite could be great on this in order to bop ghosts that are used to check it. Absolite could be nice on specially biased mixed sets, while I see Pidgeotite being used on fully special sets. Mewtwonite X looks filthy though, it's already stupidly fast, edging out base 150 speed megas and the attack boost it gains is ridiculous, putting it at base 217, only really being exceeded by Diancite Hoopa-U/KyuB (if people run that) and a few of the ultra beasts I'll go into soon on raw offensive stats. Aerodactylite also looks kind of good though, Tough Claws HJK and U-turn + 30 attack boost is filth.

Blue Orb Celesteela looks a lot more splashable on offense than Blue Orb Skarm, but lacks the recovery of Skarm, not to mention it loses Flamethrower's ability to bop the common grass immunities to it's only recovery.

Kartana looks to be a good -atespeed check. Blue Orb might be it's best set for this reason, as it also gives Kartana an extremely tasty +50 atk boost, putting it at a mind numbing 231 base attack stat, only exceeded by potential Diancite/Mewtwonite X sets. Pinsirite sets, though, look to be absolutely filthy powerful from a wallbreaking standpoint, boosting it's speed to boot, and enabling SD sets to rip holes in balance, though a quad weakness to Glaciate Weavile sucks. Lopunnite gives it a STAB Sacred Sword with 139 base speed and a ridiculous 241 base attack, rivalling the power of Mega Mawile, though it loses to Aerispeed.

Buzzwole could be a swole Aggronite user, boasting amazing physical bulk post mega and only one weakness. Unfortunately, Aggronite loses it access to it's only strong STAB, and it lacks recovery. Non type changing sets are great answers to Blazikenite Lando-T and Exca. Salamencite could be a great set, ramping up it's already insane physical bulk while giving it an even better STAB in Return/Frustration, with Return being about as strong as Superpower after Aerilate while (EDIT: Salamencite doesn't change typing you numpty) keeping the type that enables it to beat the two most common Blazikeniters, not to mention Salamencite gives it the same defense increase as Aggronite. EDIT 2: actually maybe Sablenite is better than Salamencite for keeping typing

Guzzlord looks like a more offensively splashable Sablenite/Slowbronite/Aggronite super bulky tank than Bliss. Aggronite gives it a semi decent typing in Dark Steel, but it looks like it's biggest issue will be Altarianite Entei regardless of set. Why couldn't dark be it's secondary typing smh.

Xurkitree with Pidgeotite is absolutely nasty filth vs bulky builds, boosting it's speed to a respectable 103 and giving it 100% accurate Hypnosis/Thunder (Zap cannon while still legal) and 238 special attack, letting it set up TG and start tearing slow shit up. Unlike Gengar, however, it can TG to +6 and 2hko Blissey super easily, being able to OHKO after rocks

Calc

+6 252 SpA Xurkitree Thunder vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 579-682 (88.9 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

(vs Sablenite Bliss btw)
While Zap Cannon is legal, it also lets it skill it's way past faster checks and vaporise anything slower than it, even vs a resist. Blue Orb also gives it perfectly accurate Thunders which also bop everything at +3 due to how powerful it is, as well as 203 special attack and a little more special bulk, making it a good alternative if Pidgeotite is already taken. Thank god it's slow though.

Speaking of God, Arc-Normal now has the strongest Extreme Speed in MnM that I can think of with a Life Orb.

Mega Tapus don't look too great tbh. Though, lategame, Tapu Koko looks pretty good actually. Electric Terrain + Pidgeotite Thunder looks nasty as hell, giving it a 160 base special attack stat and a 1.5x boost, propelling it's Thunder to levels not really rivalled by anything else in the unboosted meta. With rocks and Spikes up, probs from Deo-S (who will still probably be on all my teams haha), it can be scary looking.

Wishiwashi looks yum af if it can mega while schooled and stay that way. Give that thing a Cameruptite good lord. Unfortunately, it's only useable SF boosted coverage is Scald and Ice Beam so RIP.

Also Agility Pidgeotite Zap Cannon Zapdos let's GOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Alright, new generation hype. I'm worried some bans may be really broken, like Darkrai, Dragonite, or Genesect, but lets see how it comes out. I'm also really excited for terrain - maybe some of the Guardians will end up being good?

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

As a note, Buzzwole does get Roost and Lunge/Leech Life, meaning it can pull off a very good bulky set. No Steel STAB to speak of, though. Bug/Flying is a terrible type, and is why Altarianite is a superior option for going down the -ate route on Buzzwole. (EDIT: I forgot that detail of Salamancite. I guess this is the rare non-flying user of it)

Out of all the new mons introduced (besides Solgaleo/Lunala, put those mons in the OP as well for Mega Stone bans), Pheromosa sounds like the likeliest to be on the Mega Stone banlist. While it can (sort of) be handled in standard play by some good resists, Lopunnite just gives it too much power and speed, even allowing it to revenge most Diancite mons. It just sounds ridiculously unhealthy, even if -ate speed splats it several times over.

I disagree about the Tapus (except Tapu Fini, who isn't strong enough to follow suit) not being powerful. They can run Lucarionite, and start smashing stuff with either Terrain boosted attacks, or -ate boosted Returns. I'm pretty sure we'll see them around a fair bit to abuse/block incredibly powerful sweepers.

Slaking's... probably not going to be fine. That attack + bulk is very worrying.
Cress might be fine this time, solely due to the incredibly powerful stallbreakers we have now. We'll see if that's enough, though. (Probably not, actually)

 

[Niadev]

As a note, Buzzwole does get Roost and Lunge/Leech Life, meaning it can pull off a very good bulky set. No Steel STAB to speak of, though. Bug/Flying is a terrible type, and is why Altarianite is a superior option for going down the -ate route on Buzzwole.

Out of all the new mons introduced (besides Solgaleo/Lunala, put those mons in the OP as well for Mega Stone bans), Pheromosa sounds like the likeliest to be on the Mega Stone banlist. While it can (sort of) be handled in standard play by some good resists, Lopunnite just gives it too much power and speed, even allowing it to revenge most Diancite mons. It just sounds ridiculously unhealthy, even if -ate speed splats it several times over.

I disagree about the Tapus (except Tapu Fini, who isn't strong enough to follow suit) not being powerful. They can run Lucarionite, and start smashing stuff with either Terrain boosted attacks, or -ate boosted Returns. I'm pretty sure we'll see them around a fair bit to abuse/block incredibly powerful sweepers.

Slaking's... probably not going to be fine. That attack + bulk is very worrying.
Cress might be fine this time, solely due to the incredibly powerful stallbreakers we have now. We'll see if that's enough, though. (Probably not, actually)

Salamencite doesn't change Buzzwole's type while giving the Aggronite level defense boost while keeping a typing that lets it take on ground blazikeniters, hence why I noted it over Pinsirite. oh wait damnit I forgot that when I made the post didn't I (EDIT: Fixed). Also it gets Roost? Swole I won't stop making swole puns about buzzwole never ever

I thought Slaking remained banned, at least, that's what it says in the OP. Regigigas was the only nerfed legend normal unbanned afaik

 

[Laughing X-Naut]

Tapus look very scary the first time they come in. Disregarding Lucarionite (which is incredible on most of them)...

Tapu Koko @ Pidgeotite
Electric/Fairy, No Guard
70 HP / 115 Atk / 90 Def / 160 SpAtk / 85 SpDef / 150 Spd

Tapu Koko @ Gardevoirite
Electric/Fairy, Pixilate
70 HP / 135 Atk / 85 Def / 135 SpAtk / 95 SpDef / 150 Spd

Tapu Lele @ Pidgeotite
Psychic/Fairy, No Guard
70 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 195 SpAtk / 125 SpDef / 115 Spd

Tapu Lele @ Manectite
Psychic/Fairy, Intimidate
70 HP / 85 Atk / 95 Def / 160 SpAtk / 135 SpDef / 125 Spd

Tapu Bulu @ Lopunnite
Grass/Fighting, Scrappy
70 HP / 190 Atk / 125 Def / 85 SpAtk / 95 SpDef / 105 Spd

Tapu Bulu @ Altarianite
Grass/Fairy, Pixilate
70 HP / 170 Atk / 135 Def / 125 SpAtk / 95 SpDef / 75 Spd

Tapu Fini @ Absolite
Water/Fairy, Magic Bounce
70 HP / 95 Atk / 115 Def / 135 SpAtk / 130 SpDef / 125 Spd

Tapu Fini @ Cameruptite
Water/Fairy, Sheer Force
70 HP / 95 Atk / 145 Def / 135 SpAtk / 130 SpDef / 65 Spd

Another miscellaneous idea I had was Pinsirite Tapu Koko/Bulu, which lose their terrain benefits but gain a more beneficial secondary typing once your five turns expire. The former gets U-turn out to a terrain abuser and can Roost off Wild Charge damage, while the latter has Swords Dance and a STAB that complements Aerilate Returns.

 

[Jerry311]

Everybody is talking about tapus and ultra beasts, but what about zygarde? yes yes i know zygarde complete is banned, but what about 10%? you trade the bulk of 50% for speed. plenty of speed. not saying its AMAZING or anything, but could potentially. Man, I always have to stress how much im not saying something is op because if i just come in here and say "this thing is good" everybody will get all over my case and try and tell me it sucks and im an idiot and i should die, and im like, wow i never said it was the new meta or anything, chill bro. this went from an actual post to just me rambling lol.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Everybody is talking about tapus and ultra beasts, but what about zygarde? yes yes i know zygarde complete is banned, but what about 10%? you trade the bulk of 50% for speed. plenty of speed. not saying its AMAZING or anything, but could potentially. Man, I always have to stress how much im not saying something is op because if i just come in here and say "this thing is good" everybody will get all over my case and try and tell me it sucks and im an idiot and i should die, and im like, wow i never said it was the new meta or anything, chill bro. this went from an actual post to just me rambling lol.

Thanks for bringing up the 10% Zygarde. (I simply brought up the Ultra Beasts because I didn't know where else to start)
First of all, it isn't bad, and you definitely don't need to die. BUT, there's not terribly much reason to use it when 50% Zygarde exists in a meta where bulky offense reigns supreme. I suppose you can use Lucarionite 10% and speed creep some potent threats, and Thousand Arrows them... though I personally don't think that's too much of a justification, unless you really hate Terrakion.

Now... something I do feel is going to be great is Decidueye. (I'll just be going over one stone now; there's probably a handful it can use effectively) While I mentioned Blue Orb Gourgiest earlier, it doesn't have the movepool to really abuse it to its fullest. On the other hand....

Decidueye @ Blue Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Speed OR 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Speed
Nature: Impish/Careful
Spirit Shackle
Roost
Toxic/U-Turn/Defog/Leaf Blade
Toxic/U-turn/Defog/Leaf Blade

...This has all the tools it needs, and more.
As you can see, this can be a pest, especially to Primal Groudon. Unfortunately, the physical bulk isn't ideal, leaving it unable to hard check -ate speed, and Red Orb mons force this out, but that's where the negatives end. Spirit Shackle is simply terrifying in the right hands, and traps the target to you. While you're not likely to get a great target to you, it still deals good damage off 150 base attack. This might be worth investing attack in, actually, and is also why Leaf Blade's an option. Toxic enables you to truly stall out very large threats to the rest of the team, including Thundurus, Zapdos, Primal Groudon, and even Altarinite -ate speeders, if you play your cards right (simply Roost on them until they run out of Extreme Speed or the will to stay in/alive; you'll need two switch-ins to actually pull this off). Watch out for boosting when doing this, though. In addition, it's a very capable Defogger and momentum tool. There's likely options I'm forgetting, but I'm excited to try this out and further refine it into greatness.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I've said this before, but lets get this out in a complete, easy to read format: I'd like to propose some quickbans on mons that shouldn't be allowed to roam, starting with Darkrai.
Darkrai is incredibly potent. A better Pidgeotite Gengar, it has an excellent 125 speed and 135 Spa. This makes it both stronger and faster than the previously S-Rank threat, and it only gets worse from there. Darkrai has a movepool that would make Gengar cry, containing gems such Dark Void (a better hypnosis on pidgeotite sets), Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Spacial Rend, Thunder, Focus Blast, Blizzard, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Taunt, and Substitute.

Darkrai @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Void
- Nasty Plot / Substitute
- Dark Pulse / Thunder / Blizzard
- Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb / Thunder
Even the four main moves are ridiculous, but the set in general has all of 1 switchin - Sablenite Magearna. Magearna, however, is far from an ideal answer. Not only is it easy to trap, being vulnerable to all possible trappers (Magnezone, Mega Gengar, Dugtrio, Gothitelle), it also lacks reliable recovery. Rest is easy to exploit, allowing a skilled darkrai user to set up and KO a sleeping Magearna with only a little bit of luck, while Pain Split is abusable when Darkrai is combined with a low HP Pokemon. Furthermore, Magearna has to stay extremely healthy, or it falls prey to
+2 252 SpA Pidgeotite Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Magearna: 182-215 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and dies.
It also has very few checks, notably surviving a Pinsirite Dragonite Extreme Speed: 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeotite Darkrai: 211-249 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, which leaves it revenged by Choice Scarf, Altarianite/Blazikenite, and Pokemon with more than 145 base speed. It outspeeds notable speedsters like Salamencite Noivern, Manectite Thundurus, and Diancite Hoopa-U, only losing out to specialized answers, Glalitite Weavile (tie), and Manectite/Lucarionite Tapu Koku.

random calcs

For obvious reasons, only mons that can deal with sleep are used.
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 442-520 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Blissey: 334-394 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sablenite Suicune: 430-506 (106.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Zapdos: 207-244 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 368-434 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 368-434 (87.4 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Thanks to the Speed Tier and Spa, it also isn't dead weight vs offense or balance. Not only can it tear through -ateless mons, it also can abuse Psychic Terrain from Tapu Lele to defeat even that. If stall had trouble switching in, difficult doesn't even begin to cover offense' struggle. Every time Darkrai comes in, it's a 50-50 heavily in Darkrai's favor to see if you lose a mon, and if win, well, Darkrai's checks are easily walled, so they haven't lost much.
To make matters worse, Dark Void was buffed this generation. While this may seem strange, the fact that only Darkrai can use Dark Void is actually huge. Versus Gengar, if you brought in a magic bouncer against Hypnosis, you slept their Gengar and crippled it. If you do that to Dark Void, all you get is a free switch.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46124

Darkrai, however, isn't limited to pidgeotite- that's just it's best set. Gyaradosite and Ampharosite can lure in Magic Bouncers for Pokemon such as Gengar, while still breaking stall with Taunt - the latter even gives Spa and STAB Spacial Rend. Bannetite gives Prankster and lets Darkrai defeat faster Pokemon, Sceptilite makes it a still faster offensive sweeper and a decent check to Red Orb Raikou, and Alakazite lets you copy their No-Guard and get a faster Darkrai.

replays: More to Come

I don't have many right now, as I'm missing some of my best ones, but here's some to give you an idea of what it does, both in destroying stall and in how it's an otherwise-decent offensive pokemon.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46097 Breaking stall w/ magearna IT11
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46056 Doing decently vs offense Durza
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46141 Darkrai reks stall, but ends up long due to hax+missplay on my part IT11
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46146 Darkrai does some work vs offense Durzaofftopic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46148 Takes on 1 1/2 foes and buying a switch, paying nearly twice it's weight. Durza
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7mixandmega-46298 Rai does 2+ for 1 trade vs Funbot

TL; DR: Darkrai is insanely powerful, nearly singlehandedly invalidating stall while still doing excellently vs offense. It has no reliable counters, few checks, and can pick and choose coverage to defeat what answers it does have. It's stats are also great, leaving their basically no reason to not run Darkrai on pretty much every team.

Grains of Salt is this what you're looking for?

 

[Imperator Romanum]

This isn't going to be what you want to hear, so let me start of by saying this. Lets keep the back and forward on smogon to a minimum, I know your points, I know what is good about Darkrai, listing it all isn't anything new to me and neither is huge arguments. :)

Your post does articulate well why Darkrai will be an effective and prominent threat, but I still have some issues with it. You don't mention any of its downsides, it has a couple. Pidgeotite has competition and an opportunity cost(Especially with Dpunch/Zap unbanned), it has hardcore 4mss always leaving it wanting, there's plenty of checks, even more revenge killers and a couple counters (Choice Scarf Xerneas, Sablenite Magearna, Sablenite Blissey, Sablenite Florges, Altarianite Entei/Lucario/Zygarde/Dragonite/Genesect/Mienshaou, Tyranitar, Terrakion ect. all check one set or counter a couple), there are plenty of Magic bouncers that stop Dark void dead, it's frail and can't switch into anything.

Honestly, a ton of your TL;DR I just blatently wrong or is half-true at best. Darkrai doesn't invalidate stall, stall was never valid in the first place. Literally never seen a successful stall in MnM, the closest thing is NVs team. You can't say Darkrai does excellently versus offence when it did decently in your replays, at best. Not to mention those replays are hardly valid because you're just three people, you don't represent the MnM community. Darkrai has two reliable counters that I've thought of personally, Sablenite Magearna og Sablenite Florges. Strong checks include, but aren't limited to, Ho-oh, Xerneas or any Pixilate Extreme Speed users. Darkrai isn't running 13 moves at once, one of them work. Darkrais stats are decent lol, only notable stats are Speed and Special attacks. And no, there's still plenty of No guard abusers to use over Darkrai - like Mew, Thundurus, Tornadus ect.

You missed the entire point of the conversation we had on showdown. I know all of this, most people do. Darkrai has existed for years and we all know what it does. Here's what we don't know, how it will effect the Mix and Mega Metagame. And you might think or I might think, but in reality we don't know. When I urged you to make this post I specificed multiple times that you should wait until the metagame has a ladder on the main server, because then we have actual proof of its effectivenesse. Might be great on paper but not in practise.

Secondly, we also get an actual ban history. Darkrai is uncertanity, so is Regigigas, Cresselia, Kyurem-B and any of the other unbans. Mix and Mega will exist for a while now, probably two years atleast. I'd like to spend this unique opportunity to establish a ban list where we actually know without a doubt that something was deemed broken in an established metagame. That includes resources that show replays, arguments and the communities opinion via a voting system.

When there is uncertainty I'd rather base my decision on votes, replays in established metagames and two-sided arguments from respectable users (not that you aren't qt), than pure speculations, subpar replays and arguments I've heard before. Darkrai isn't getting quick-banned before the ladder is up.

Have a nice day!

 

[RedSabre]

From what I can see, a big threat is Blue Orb Golisopod. 75/175/140/90/110/40 stats, and Perma-Rain. It has access to a +2 priority, 90 BP Fake out that doesn't flinch in First Impression, giving it an easy way to land a large amount of damage whenever it switches in. It also has Aqua Jet, which, when boosted by rain, approaches a high level of damage. It can handle -Ate Speed with 252 HP/252+ Attack, and hit them VERY hard back. The most viable set I can see is 252 HP/252+ Attack/4 SpDef, with Liquidation/Aqua Jet/Leech Life/Swords Dance. Leech Life is more of a coverage move, since Liquidation out-damages First Impression due to the rain. Swords dance allows it to muscle past its checks. A set-up set of 252 HP/252+ SpDef/4 Attack with Bulk Up/Leech Life/Liquidation/Aqua Jet might work, as it can take a large amount of attacks this way, and slowly set up and force its way to victory. The main issue with this Pokémon, however, is the inability to handle Fire types holding a Red Orb. However, its STAB combo has amazing coverage, hitting a large amount of Pokémon at least neutrally. The only regret here is the lack of U-turn with the Speed stat of 40, which would make an amazing pivot. Here are some damage calculations to help show off its damage and bulk:

Power:
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey in Heavy Rain: 562-663 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 4 Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Blissey in Heavy Rain: 331-391 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Sablenite Registeel in Heavy Rain: 160-189 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Yes, Sablenite Registeel is not a thing. But it DOES have 80/200/200 bulk)
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Sablenite Registeel in Heavy Rain: 268-316 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 64+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Heavy Rain: 417-492 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 Atk Golisopod Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 64+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Heavy Rain: 247-292 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Bulk:
252 SpA Pixilate Altarianite Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Golisopod: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Altarianite Noivern Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golisopod: 156-184 (44 - 51.9%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Entei Extreme Speed vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 186-218 (52.5 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Altarianite Entei Extreme Speed vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Regigigas Return vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 318-374 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Yes, I know, 37.5% chance to OHKO, but you have to remember: This is a Super effective, STAB, Aerilate-Boosted Return off of 190 base attack. And it has a higher chance of living than dying.)
252+ Atk Pixilate Altarianite Regigigas Return vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO (Once again, Pixilate Boosted STAB Return off of 200 Attack. Ban Regigigas from Mix and Mega!)


Side note: Yes, I DID raise the stats for each Mega Stone, for both sides. I did also changed the type of each Pokémon when the Mega Stone changed the stats.

In conclusion, I believe Golisopod to be a threat that needs to be prepared for, as it will be common. Who knows, it could become the prime Entei check in the game and make a much more balanced metagame. His inability to handle Fire types with a Red Orb is more than put off by his amazing bulk and power.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

This isn't going to be what you want to hear, so let me start of by saying this. Lets keep the back and forward on smogon to a minimum, I know your points, I know what is good about Darkrai, listing it all isn't anything new to me and neither is huge arguments. :)



You missed the entire point of the conversation we had on showdown. I know all of this, most people do. Darkrai has existed for years and we all know what it does. Here's what we don't know, how it will effect the Mix and Mega Metagame. And you might think or I might think, but in reality we don't know. When I urged you to make this post I specificed multiple times that you should wait until the metagame has a ladder on the main server, because then we have actual proof of its effectivenesse. Might be great on paper but not in practise.

Secondly, we also get an actual ban history. Darkrai is uncertanity, so is Regigigas, Cresselia, Kyurem-B and any of the other unbans. Mix and Mega will exist for a while now, probably two years atleast. I'd like to spend this unique opportunity to establish a ban list where we actually know without a doubt that something was deemed broken in an established metagame. That includes resources that show replays, arguments and the communities opinion via a voting system.

When there is uncertainty I'd rather base my decision on votes, replays in established metagames and two-sided arguments from respectable users (not that you aren't qt), than pure speculations, subpar replays and arguments I've heard before. Darkrai isn't getting quick-banned before the ladder is up.

Have a nice day!

View attachment 74253

I'm sorry, but this needs to be said:

Some things can't be proved simply by replays - You can't simulate low ladder play. High ladder play is not the only thing that needs to be worried about because low ladder will obviously determine high ladder. I'm not saying that replays don't help or don't prove things, but often you need to think about things other than high ladder play.

You need to use common sense.

Will anybody low ladder be able to counter Darkrai? Probably not.

Does Darkrai allow players with little to no skill to better players by button spamming? Absolutely.

I'm not saying that players who use Darkrai are unskilled, but Darkrai in itself requires little skill and at most a bit of luck.

TL;DR Darkrai breaks the skill curve, especially the low ladder of Mix and Mega.

 

[RedSabre]

I'm sorry, but this needs to be said:

Some things can't be proved simply by replays - You can't simulate low ladder play. High ladder play is not the only thing that needs to be worried about because low ladder will obviously determine high ladder. I'm not saying that replays don't help or don't prove things, but often you need to think about things other than high ladder play.

You need to use common sense.

Will anybody low ladder be able to counter Darkrai? Probably not.

Does Darkrai allow players with little to no skill to better players by button spamming? Absolutely.

I'm not saying that players who use Darkrai are unskilled, but Darkrai in itself requires little skill and at most a bit of luck.

TL;DR Darkrai breaks the skill curve, especially the low ladder of Mix and Mega.

I tend to agree with you, Durza. This is especially complemented by the fact that Darkrai's Dark Void is now hardcoded to it, and if it gets bounced back at you by a Sablenite or Diancite Pokémon, you don't fall asleep, as it says "Only Darkrai can use this attack". This means Darkrai can spam Dark Void until he gets an enemy Pokémon asleep without having to fear that his Dark Void will be bounced back and put him to sleep instead. But the fact does remain that we have special walls. Most of the walls in this game *Cough* Blissey *Cough* hold Sablenite and can handle Darkrai fairly well. People with the MM2Y stone that aren't weak to Dark type can also kill Darkrai. Each team will likely have 1 or 2 ways to beat Darkrai, just naturally, without having to purposefully put it there to counter Darkrai. It can't sweep totally without that/those Pokémon being removed. However, once -Atespeed and the Sablenite Pokémon have been removed, the only thing that is left is the very frail Diancite Pokémon, and most teams do not carry Diancite Pokémon. This means that you can tackle the enemies Darkrai checks, then have Darkrai sweep with impunity. In my opinion, Darkrai should be left to sit unbanned for a day or 3, and depending on his usage in the latter part of the time he is sitting there (Everyone will be hyped and use him, likely, in the beginning), we can suspect test him.

 

[M'joe'ra]

When even is the gen 7 ladder going to be up anyways?

 

[RedSabre]

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 422-498 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Enough said.

A: +2. You Dark Void while Blissey switches in. While you Nasty Plot, Blissey attacks or something B: Do both sides have the Mega Stone added to them (I just checked in calc myself, so it is with the stats added.)? C: WHO USES 252 HP/4 SPECIAL DEFENSE BLISSEY? Use 4 HP/252 Special Defense. C: 0 SpA Sablenite Blissey Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeottite Darkrai: 166-196 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, don't dare say "Oh, I nasty plotted on the switch-in", because we all know that the safest move for Darkrai whenever the Sleep Clause isn't on is Dark Void. Nasty Plot could lead to death if they stay in. Dark Pulse=Death if they stay in. Dark Void will save you if they stay in, and if not, oh well. You live, you have a chance to beat the opponents Sablenite Blissey (A low chance, though. They would have to miss 2 Focus Blasts). If the Sleep Clause is on and the opponent has a sleeping Pokémon, their Pokémon will just attack anyways, as Dark Void won't sleep them.

 

[Pika Xreme]

Honestly, I think Darkrai is definitely worth a quick ban. It's a better Gengar in pretty much all regards, and that's a mon that's already in the top rung of the meta.
A Zygarde or Thousand Arrows suspect is pretty likely now, considering using a Steel mon as a wall is less appealing, now that it can hit the levitating ones for at least neutral. Easily the scariest setup sweeper in the current meta.
There's probably a ton more broken threats, but I'll wait until the banlist here settles down a little (which it probably will very quickly), at which point I'll go over every single mega stone. Until then, let me speak about the Ultra Beasts a little.

Nihilego sounds like the easiest Latiasite of our lives to slap on. Then the type becomes pretty solid, actually, resisting the two most popular -ates and granting an EQ immunity. Though Slowbronite would make the physical bulk far more serviceable.

Guzzlord sounds pretty nice with this whole idea, given its gargantuan HP stat. Sablenite is a fantastic option, though Aggronite and Altarianite are worth looks as it changes that double Pixispeed weakness into a neutral hit with the former, and gives it a hard hitting STAB option with the latter. Also, that movepool is huge.

Celesteel simply wants a Blue Orb. It wishes it has Regenerator for this meta, but alas, no healing for you(besides Rest). That physical movepool is incredibly nice, but losing lefties really hurts this mon, even more than it hurts Ferrothorn. It's certainly still usable, but Wish support is mandatory in order to use this well now.

Buzzwole (shoutouts to your avatar, Jajoken) has a few options. It could go for a Blue Orb to round out its bulk and make it hit really hard physically, Aggronite in order to give this an actually good typing, or an -ate stone for sheer wallbreaking potential, Buzzwole can do a lot... in the physical department. It's not going to be taking on Red Orb Raikou in its lifetime.

Pheromosa is painfully obvious. Lopunnite. DONE. Screw missing HJK with Ghost switch-ins. Hit them hard instead. This might be even nastier offensively than Terrakion.

Katarna desperately wants to keep that typing for the sake of defense. Blue Orb is good for the same reason it is on Scizor, Lucarionite is always a good option on these offensive mons, and Lopunnite does change the typing so you are -ate weak (bad), but it also grants a terrifying offensive boost to Sacred Sword and that crazy offense (good).

Xurkitree... is in a really awkward spot. It has tools to use several incredibly potent combinations, but its movepool is very strange to work around here. Its best special Normal move is Round, which is simply heartbreaking. Tri Attack, which does open it up for -ate sets, which are pretty good. Nontherless, it has a few other options. It learns Zap Cannon, so Pidgeotite is a good option for just nuking things with paralysis. Absolite allows it to outspeed a few slower threats better, Diancite does that even better (but I wouldn't recommend it, due to the awful bulk you have remaining) and then the one I personally recommend... Audinite. Yes, Audinite. Xurkitree actually appreciates these boosts greatly, and gives it Dazzling Gleam STAB and a nice defensive type. It works best as a wallbreaker, and Tail Glow even lets it make Blissey cry tears of pain with this or the Pidgeotite set.

why even run mixed Pheromosa when you can do this:

Pheromosa @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Bug Buzz
- Focus Blast
- filler

EVs and nature might not be fully optimal but you get the point