Hey! I've gotten into VGC again after a pretty long break from it. I used to play back in the 2016-2018 VGC formats (but never very well lol) and I'm trying to get back to being competitive this year. Ironically, the lack of Primals has forced me to get more creative, which I appreciate. If not for that I probably would have made a horrible double Primals team and gotten zero mileage on it.
I've always had a sentimental love for Yveltal and Kyogre (as Alpha Sapphire and Y were my first two games from the series) and I wanted to build a team around them that fit my playstyle - that is, hyper-offense and read-heavy. (Call me crazy if you want, but that adrenaline is only second to the insomniac feeling of needing to get to bed or falling asleep exactly where I was.) Most of these Pokemon, as a result, are offensively focused and aim to simply obliterate the opposing team before they can obliterate mine. The team is as follows:
Kyogre @ Wave Incense
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 20 HP / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunder
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
(edits: 16 HP / 240 Spe --> 20 HP / 236 Spe)
Kyogre has the best value in this team by setting up rain. Yveltal, Kyogre, and Tornadus all run either Thunder or Hurricane, and it can also help shut down Sun teams by, y'know, turning off the sun. Protect to conserve HP, Thunder to counter opposing Flying- and Water-types, including opposing Kyogre. Ice Beam is for coverage if Darmanitan didn't get the chance to hit other threats, though Ice Beam really doesn't see that scenario very often. What it has saved me from, however, is opposing Gastrodon, as Ice Beam is the only move Kyogre can use to 1v1 it. Ice Beam does roughly 26% to Gastrodon, so while it loses the 1v1 to Yawn or Earth Power, Kyogre can take Gastrodon out if earlier chip damage was dealt (for example, from Foul Play or Hurricane). Origin Pulse is my Water move of choice, as it does similar damage to a Scarf Water Spout (at 138 power after Incense) while not lowering damage due to a defensive switch-in or earlier damage.
Wave Incense was chosen to allow Kyogre to switch moves at will and to boost Max Geyser as well, since Tornadus's Tailwind (and/or Max Airstream from Yveltal, if necessary) can provide speed control. The 240 Spe investment comes from a desire to beat out most fast threats after Tailwind was applied - specifically, my benchmark was max speed Regieleki at 277 speed. Kyogre has 140 base speed, which gets doubled from Prankster Tailwind and allows Kyogre to OHKO/activate Sash Regieleki before it becomes a threat. The rest are invested into SpA for pure damage, and whatever is left just goes into HP for filler, in all honesty.
(I'm realizing that "base speed" can be interpreted different ways than what I intended, and I used a similar term later in the post as well. By "base speed" I'm referring to speed before paralysis, tailwind, bulldoze, etc., not how Kyogre is a base 90 speed pokemon.)
Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- Hurricane
Yveltal is actually run to check most offensive physical attackers via Foul Play, and it was built specifically to take down Zacian if possible. I originally got the idea from Negative Shadow's Kyogre/Yveltal team back from the 2016 season which used Black Glasses Foul Play paired with Swagger Prankster Thundurus. A similar strategy is used here, but I opted to use Choice Scarf to outspeed most physical threats before Tailwind is introduced. Hurricane uses Rain to deal Flying damage without accuracy checks, and Sucker Punch for priority. I'll be honest, Oblivion Wing is mostly filler and I'm looking for a move to replace it.
My benchmark for Yveltal's speed was max speed Zacian at 220 speed. 228 Spe EVs hits a speed of 222 after Scarf is applied, allowing Yveltal to consistently outspeed Zacian and hit a +3 Foul Play (after Swagger and Intrepid Sword) for a 2HKO and a 1/3 confusion roll on Zacian's move. +2 Foul Play (via Swagger) has also allowed me to OHKO Groudon, and it can OHKO/Sash Calyrex-Shadow without Swagger. The rest was invested into SpA to maximize Hurricane damage, and HP investment was really only applied as filler. I went for a Atk- nature because only Sucker Punch calculated off of that stat, and I was willing to take the attack drop there if it meant defenses and Speed weren't affected.
Tornadus (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Swagger
- Taunt
Tornadus is the team's primary support Pokemon, running Tailwind for immediate speed control, Hurricane for damage and confusion rolls, Taunt to stop opposing Whimsicott (of the non-max speed varieties) and the rare Xerneas, and Swagger for Foul Play cheese. Originally I was running Protect over Swagger and instead running Swagger on a separate Thundurus-Incarnate with Prankster, but that gave me a lot of issues with a shared Electric weakness between Yveltal, Kyogre, Thundurus, and Tornadus. I opted to give Tornadus a Sash, swap Protect for Swagger, and remove Thundurus. Unfortunately, the move choice of Swagger left me unable to use Whimsicott (who would otherwise be faster and could use Trick Room instead of Pory2), so I do have unfortunate issues if I come across a max speed Whimsicott who would like to use Taunt or Tailwind turn 1.
No speed benchmark this time around, just wanted to guarantee all status moves to the best of my ability with max Speed. Max SpA for Hurricane damage, HP investment for filler. Focus Sash to be able to live for one extra turn, meaning that unless Max Rockfall or Max Hailstorm are used, I will get at least two moves out (usually Tailwind and one of either Hurricane or Swagger).
Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Superpower
- Giga Impact
- Flare Blitz
(edits: 4 HP --> 60 HP, Fire Punch --> Flare Blitz)
Darmanitan-Galar is the team's burst damage member, using both Band, Gorilla Tactics, and Tailwind to hopefully take out an opposing Restricted or other threat. Double-Band (or would it be Double-Gorilla Tactics?) with max Attack investment allows Darmanitan to OHKO most Restricteds - Groudon and Zekrom, for example, die to Ice Punch. Dialga and White Kyurem to Superpower, Palkia to Giga Impact, etc. Most non-Restricteds just get nuked too. One point of note is that it does not OHKO Necrozma Dusk-Mane, but it does 2HKO (unfortunately activating Weakness Policy in the process, though). In theory I could Swagger my own Darmanitan and roll for confusion, or I could just take the Ice Punch damage and leave the rest to Yveltal.
I wanted the same speed benchmark for Darmanitan as Kyogre (Regieleki's 277+ after Tailwind), and 196 investment lands me at a pleasant 140 base/280 wind. Darmanitan was intentionally given absolutely no defensive investment - I wanted my opponents to see it as a threat, kill it, and give me a free switch-in to either of my back mons.
Incineroar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Darkest Lariat
Incineroar is probably the Pokemon that needs least elaboration. Intimidate, Parting Shot, Fake Out, just the standard set. Darkest Lariat is intended to be used for damage next to Yveltal (for Dark Aura). I'm running Close Combat over Flare Blitz to try to avoid incurring the penalty from Rain. In all honesty I don't intend to use Incineroar very much, since it's really only here for stat drops and the occasional Fake Out. Rocky Helmet over a different item here so I can switch into a Behemoth Blade and get a little bit of chip damage onto Zacian. I'm just terrified of activating Justified or Competitive, so I'm always hesitant to use Incineroar. Not to mention the opportunity cost of Darmanitan's nukes (since I tend to use the three legendaries for most games).
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ally Switch
- Trick Room
- Foul Play
- Thunder
(edits: Trick --> Thunder)
Porygon2 is in every way, shape, or form an oddball pick. Originally this final slot held a G-Max Rillaboom which I never really used, and the rest of the team relied incredibly heavily on being faster than the opponents, so Trick Room was almost always an auto-lose. With the double-genie strategy before, I could get around Fake Outs by simply leading Tornadus + Thundurus and using Taunt twice. However, that isn't possible with them being compressed to a single slot, and it wouldn't have gotten past Follow Me/Rage Powder anyways. Porygon2 is kind of a way around this, but it's incredibly read-heavy (which I personally don't mind). Simply put, if I expect a Turn 1 Trick Room, I will Trick Room in response to reverse it. Of course, there's a ton of counterplay, most notably my opponent just not using Room, meaning I set myself up for a horrible position. But dang, is it funny. Even baiting out a Trick Room-preferring switch like Dialga or Calyrex-Ice on Turn 2 and reversing my Room on Turn 2 is really funny, and I've done it twice already.
Other than that, Ally Switch to mess with my opponents, Thunder to take advantage of Rain, and Foul Play for Yveltal as a duck. Overall just a Pokemon to make me laugh and deal with opposing Trick Room teams. Defensive investment to get the most out of Eviolite, since Foul Play calculates based on the opponent's Attack stat anyways. I'm not too concerned about Thunder damage from Pory2, since I straight-up don't bring it unless Trick Room shenanigans are applicable. A bit of free damage is always nice, though.
Under most circumstances I will lead Darmanitan-Galar and Tornadus for a free OHKO and Tailwind and a switch at the end of the turn. Kyogre and Yveltal would be in the back in those circumstances. If my opponent has Regieleki, Zapdos, or Thundurus, I'll lead with Kyogre and Tornadus, with Yveltal and one other in the back - Max Geyser and Tailwind to shut down Regieleki (or Hailstorm if I think they might be Sashed), followed by whatever shenanigans happen afterwards. Against a team that I think will Trick Room, I'll use Restricted + Pory2 with Restricted in the back and either Tornadus or Darmanitan, depending on what I'm feeling in the situation. Rarely, if ever, do I forego a Restricted.
Kyogre and Yveltal are also usually my Dynamax options, not necessarily for damage, but for the extra effects of the attacks. Kyogre gives me weather and terrain control, while Yveltal gives me Speed boosts and SpD drops. They also provide good bulk, and in the case of Kyogre, a 100% accuracy rate to either do lots of damage with Rain-boosted Geyser, or to reapply Rain for Origin Pulses, Thunders, and Hurricanes galore.
One thing I've noticed with my Dynamax usage is that I see them less as win-conditions or stat boosters, and more as Z-moves without the item dependency. I've been pretty liberal with my Dynamaxing as a result, as I'm willing to Dynamax for a KO or a secondary effect, even if it means I lose the Dynamaxed Pokemon turn 1 or turn 2 of Dynamax.
I'd love any suggestions (obviously to EV spreads and natures), but I'm also curious regarding input for certain things. I've pondered them a little but would like a second opinion if possible. Those certain things being:
- Would Water Spout over Origin Pulse be better for Kyogre? I usually Dynamax anyways if I want damage, and Water Spout has a higher Geyser power (180 over Origin Pulse's 150, both before Incense).
- Would Kyogre or Yveltal benefit from speed-increasing natures and EVs reallocated for defenses?
- As a follow-up to the previous question, is it worth it to just drop SpA investment from Yveltal outright and invest all 252 EVs into survival? I tend to just click Foul Play most of the time, since Tornadus is usually on the field during that choice.
- Would it be worth swapping Pory2 for a faster Trick Room user, like Gengar or Alakazam, to better allow the team to focus on hyper offense?
- Would it be worth swapping Trick on Pory2 for Thunder?
- Would Landorus-Therian be better than Incineroar?
Thank you for your time, for reading, and for your input. I truly appreciate it.
I've always had a sentimental love for Yveltal and Kyogre (as Alpha Sapphire and Y were my first two games from the series) and I wanted to build a team around them that fit my playstyle - that is, hyper-offense and read-heavy. (Call me crazy if you want, but that adrenaline is only second to the insomniac feeling of needing to get to bed or falling asleep exactly where I was.) Most of these Pokemon, as a result, are offensively focused and aim to simply obliterate the opposing team before they can obliterate mine. The team is as follows:
Kyogre @ Wave Incense
Ability: Drizzle
Level: 50
EVs: 20 HP / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Thunder
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
(edits: 16 HP / 240 Spe --> 20 HP / 236 Spe)
Kyogre has the best value in this team by setting up rain. Yveltal, Kyogre, and Tornadus all run either Thunder or Hurricane, and it can also help shut down Sun teams by, y'know, turning off the sun. Protect to conserve HP, Thunder to counter opposing Flying- and Water-types, including opposing Kyogre. Ice Beam is for coverage if Darmanitan didn't get the chance to hit other threats, though Ice Beam really doesn't see that scenario very often. What it has saved me from, however, is opposing Gastrodon, as Ice Beam is the only move Kyogre can use to 1v1 it. Ice Beam does roughly 26% to Gastrodon, so while it loses the 1v1 to Yawn or Earth Power, Kyogre can take Gastrodon out if earlier chip damage was dealt (for example, from Foul Play or Hurricane). Origin Pulse is my Water move of choice, as it does similar damage to a Scarf Water Spout (at 138 power after Incense) while not lowering damage due to a defensive switch-in or earlier damage.
Wave Incense was chosen to allow Kyogre to switch moves at will and to boost Max Geyser as well, since Tornadus's Tailwind (and/or Max Airstream from Yveltal, if necessary) can provide speed control. The 240 Spe investment comes from a desire to beat out most fast threats after Tailwind was applied - specifically, my benchmark was max speed Regieleki at 277 speed. Kyogre has 140 base speed, which gets doubled from Prankster Tailwind and allows Kyogre to OHKO/activate Sash Regieleki before it becomes a threat. The rest are invested into SpA for pure damage, and whatever is left just goes into HP for filler, in all honesty.
(I'm realizing that "base speed" can be interpreted different ways than what I intended, and I used a similar term later in the post as well. By "base speed" I'm referring to speed before paralysis, tailwind, bulldoze, etc., not how Kyogre is a base 90 speed pokemon.)
Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- Hurricane
Yveltal is actually run to check most offensive physical attackers via Foul Play, and it was built specifically to take down Zacian if possible. I originally got the idea from Negative Shadow's Kyogre/Yveltal team back from the 2016 season which used Black Glasses Foul Play paired with Swagger Prankster Thundurus. A similar strategy is used here, but I opted to use Choice Scarf to outspeed most physical threats before Tailwind is introduced. Hurricane uses Rain to deal Flying damage without accuracy checks, and Sucker Punch for priority. I'll be honest, Oblivion Wing is mostly filler and I'm looking for a move to replace it.
My benchmark for Yveltal's speed was max speed Zacian at 220 speed. 228 Spe EVs hits a speed of 222 after Scarf is applied, allowing Yveltal to consistently outspeed Zacian and hit a +3 Foul Play (after Swagger and Intrepid Sword) for a 2HKO and a 1/3 confusion roll on Zacian's move. +2 Foul Play (via Swagger) has also allowed me to OHKO Groudon, and it can OHKO/Sash Calyrex-Shadow without Swagger. The rest was invested into SpA to maximize Hurricane damage, and HP investment was really only applied as filler. I went for a Atk- nature because only Sucker Punch calculated off of that stat, and I was willing to take the attack drop there if it meant defenses and Speed weren't affected.
Tornadus (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Swagger
- Taunt
Tornadus is the team's primary support Pokemon, running Tailwind for immediate speed control, Hurricane for damage and confusion rolls, Taunt to stop opposing Whimsicott (of the non-max speed varieties) and the rare Xerneas, and Swagger for Foul Play cheese. Originally I was running Protect over Swagger and instead running Swagger on a separate Thundurus-Incarnate with Prankster, but that gave me a lot of issues with a shared Electric weakness between Yveltal, Kyogre, Thundurus, and Tornadus. I opted to give Tornadus a Sash, swap Protect for Swagger, and remove Thundurus. Unfortunately, the move choice of Swagger left me unable to use Whimsicott (who would otherwise be faster and could use Trick Room instead of Pory2), so I do have unfortunate issues if I come across a max speed Whimsicott who would like to use Taunt or Tailwind turn 1.
No speed benchmark this time around, just wanted to guarantee all status moves to the best of my ability with max Speed. Max SpA for Hurricane damage, HP investment for filler. Focus Sash to be able to live for one extra turn, meaning that unless Max Rockfall or Max Hailstorm are used, I will get at least two moves out (usually Tailwind and one of either Hurricane or Swagger).
Darmanitan-Galar @ Choice Band
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Superpower
- Giga Impact
- Flare Blitz
(edits: 4 HP --> 60 HP, Fire Punch --> Flare Blitz)
Darmanitan-Galar is the team's burst damage member, using both Band, Gorilla Tactics, and Tailwind to hopefully take out an opposing Restricted or other threat. Double-Band (or would it be Double-Gorilla Tactics?) with max Attack investment allows Darmanitan to OHKO most Restricteds - Groudon and Zekrom, for example, die to Ice Punch. Dialga and White Kyurem to Superpower, Palkia to Giga Impact, etc. Most non-Restricteds just get nuked too. One point of note is that it does not OHKO Necrozma Dusk-Mane, but it does 2HKO (unfortunately activating Weakness Policy in the process, though). In theory I could Swagger my own Darmanitan and roll for confusion, or I could just take the Ice Punch damage and leave the rest to Yveltal.
I wanted the same speed benchmark for Darmanitan as Kyogre (Regieleki's 277+ after Tailwind), and 196 investment lands me at a pleasant 140 base/280 wind. Darmanitan was intentionally given absolutely no defensive investment - I wanted my opponents to see it as a threat, kill it, and give me a free switch-in to either of my back mons.
Incineroar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Darkest Lariat
Incineroar is probably the Pokemon that needs least elaboration. Intimidate, Parting Shot, Fake Out, just the standard set. Darkest Lariat is intended to be used for damage next to Yveltal (for Dark Aura). I'm running Close Combat over Flare Blitz to try to avoid incurring the penalty from Rain. In all honesty I don't intend to use Incineroar very much, since it's really only here for stat drops and the occasional Fake Out. Rocky Helmet over a different item here so I can switch into a Behemoth Blade and get a little bit of chip damage onto Zacian. I'm just terrified of activating Justified or Competitive, so I'm always hesitant to use Incineroar. Not to mention the opportunity cost of Darmanitan's nukes (since I tend to use the three legendaries for most games).
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ally Switch
- Trick Room
- Foul Play
- Thunder
(edits: Trick --> Thunder)
Porygon2 is in every way, shape, or form an oddball pick. Originally this final slot held a G-Max Rillaboom which I never really used, and the rest of the team relied incredibly heavily on being faster than the opponents, so Trick Room was almost always an auto-lose. With the double-genie strategy before, I could get around Fake Outs by simply leading Tornadus + Thundurus and using Taunt twice. However, that isn't possible with them being compressed to a single slot, and it wouldn't have gotten past Follow Me/Rage Powder anyways. Porygon2 is kind of a way around this, but it's incredibly read-heavy (which I personally don't mind). Simply put, if I expect a Turn 1 Trick Room, I will Trick Room in response to reverse it. Of course, there's a ton of counterplay, most notably my opponent just not using Room, meaning I set myself up for a horrible position. But dang, is it funny. Even baiting out a Trick Room-preferring switch like Dialga or Calyrex-Ice on Turn 2 and reversing my Room on Turn 2 is really funny, and I've done it twice already.
Other than that, Ally Switch to mess with my opponents, Thunder to take advantage of Rain, and Foul Play for Yveltal as a duck. Overall just a Pokemon to make me laugh and deal with opposing Trick Room teams. Defensive investment to get the most out of Eviolite, since Foul Play calculates based on the opponent's Attack stat anyways. I'm not too concerned about Thunder damage from Pory2, since I straight-up don't bring it unless Trick Room shenanigans are applicable. A bit of free damage is always nice, though.
Under most circumstances I will lead Darmanitan-Galar and Tornadus for a free OHKO and Tailwind and a switch at the end of the turn. Kyogre and Yveltal would be in the back in those circumstances. If my opponent has Regieleki, Zapdos, or Thundurus, I'll lead with Kyogre and Tornadus, with Yveltal and one other in the back - Max Geyser and Tailwind to shut down Regieleki (or Hailstorm if I think they might be Sashed), followed by whatever shenanigans happen afterwards. Against a team that I think will Trick Room, I'll use Restricted + Pory2 with Restricted in the back and either Tornadus or Darmanitan, depending on what I'm feeling in the situation. Rarely, if ever, do I forego a Restricted.
Kyogre and Yveltal are also usually my Dynamax options, not necessarily for damage, but for the extra effects of the attacks. Kyogre gives me weather and terrain control, while Yveltal gives me Speed boosts and SpD drops. They also provide good bulk, and in the case of Kyogre, a 100% accuracy rate to either do lots of damage with Rain-boosted Geyser, or to reapply Rain for Origin Pulses, Thunders, and Hurricanes galore.
One thing I've noticed with my Dynamax usage is that I see them less as win-conditions or stat boosters, and more as Z-moves without the item dependency. I've been pretty liberal with my Dynamaxing as a result, as I'm willing to Dynamax for a KO or a secondary effect, even if it means I lose the Dynamaxed Pokemon turn 1 or turn 2 of Dynamax.
I'd love any suggestions (obviously to EV spreads and natures), but I'm also curious regarding input for certain things. I've pondered them a little but would like a second opinion if possible. Those certain things being:
- Would Water Spout over Origin Pulse be better for Kyogre? I usually Dynamax anyways if I want damage, and Water Spout has a higher Geyser power (180 over Origin Pulse's 150, both before Incense).
- Would Kyogre or Yveltal benefit from speed-increasing natures and EVs reallocated for defenses?
- As a follow-up to the previous question, is it worth it to just drop SpA investment from Yveltal outright and invest all 252 EVs into survival? I tend to just click Foul Play most of the time, since Tornadus is usually on the field during that choice.
- Would it be worth swapping Pory2 for a faster Trick Room user, like Gengar or Alakazam, to better allow the team to focus on hyper offense?
- Would it be worth swapping Trick on Pory2 for Thunder?
- Would Landorus-Therian be better than Incineroar?
Thank you for your time, for reading, and for your input. I truly appreciate it.
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