Introducing the OU (no Mega) Ladder

[ryan]

Hi folks! As we all know, mega evolutions are the biggest innovation introduced in Gen VI. Certain Pokémon that were barely OU in B/W went straight to Ubers thanks to the boosts provided by their respective mega stone, while others that used to stagnate in lower tiers, became massive threats in our flagship tier after receiving a mega evolution in Gen VI.

According to many players, "team matchup" and "power creep", two expressions that we've gotten used to hearing first in X/Y and again in OR/AS, have been massively exacerbated by the presence of mega evolutions in the tier. While it's safe to say that many mega evolutions are absolutely balanced and on par with other regular Pokémon, we thought it would have been interesting to test an alternative metagame where we're going to pretend that mega evoultions were never introduced in the game.

Basically, in this experimental tier, named "OU (no Mega)", we're going to test the effects of mega evolutions on the metagame in order to address, among other things, the following issues:
1) bearing of mega evolutions on the match up component of the game;
2) restrictions on team building caused by mega evolutions;
3) level of diversity in a metagame without mega evolutions.

The OU (no Mega) ladder, which is being implemented as I type this post, will be open for playtesting for a few weeks. The tier will basically follow the standard OU banlist and rules, with the only exception that mega stones will have no effects. After we get a stable metagame, and according to the level of interest (or lack thereof) it creates in the playerbase, we might start to progressively introduce the mega evolutions that we, as a community, perceive as balanced for the tier.

This thread will serve as a general metagame discussion one, where everyone will be allowed to share their impressions on the new tier. One or more themed tournaments will be organized with the help of Tournament Directors. Do note, however, that this is by no means a Suspect Test and that we're not going to have any vote. Likewise, the OU (no Mega) tier is not going to replace the Standard OU one, which is still going to represent our official OU metagame.

Have fun laddering!

 

[vyomov]

Can't wait to play this, I think this is an outstanding move :)
I think the new meta will be very similar to BW2(although Azumarill, Talon and others will play key roles), but I'm hoping we see a lot more diversity in the metagame and not just the Landorus-Keldeo-Ttar generic builds

 

[haunter]

Lol guys, I realize you're excited and I appreciate it, but please avoid one liners.

Also, the new ladder is up!

 

[ThePipmaster]

ack how replace gallade for ladder
I'm thinking that SD Breloom is the best replacement for Gallade so far...
This will be interesting.
EDIT: Whoops, I got ninja'd by the "no-one-liner" post.
I do think that it will be interesting to see how people fulfill the niches which the megas once held with regular pokemon. Some are obvious, such as MManectric for Raikou, and MScizor for base Scizor, but others, like MSharpedo, will be difficult to find replacements for.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Take that UU and your No Scald Ladder

But seriously, this looks like a pretty interesting metagame. One obvious change is that Knock Off will become even more powerful than it already is right now, making it so that it guarantees the loss of your item. Also, I could see this brining back some of the powerhouses of last generation (Except the ones that relied heavily of weather) like Garchomp. Really curious to see what this has in store

 

[antemortem]

i was real excited to click into this to see another magikarp analysis or something

I don't know how I feel about this, and it'd be interesting to see this ladder with the likes of, say, Aegislash, to get a completely fair measure of how the original ORAS metagame would've been without Megas, but we'll see.

 

[SketchUp]

Very cool experiment and it is very nice to try out a different ladder. The pressure pokemon like Diancie and Metagross put on teambuilding was really annoying when you was trying to innovate. I don't think there is much to say about pokemon that become very popular (Excadrill + TTar, Landorus, Mew, Keldeo) but there are some pokemon that are nice to take a look at because they can check many of these pokemon:

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail / Roar / Thunder Wave

First pokemon I was thinking of when looking at the biggest threats was Gyarados. Gyara is a good switchin to Keldeo, Landorus, Volcarona and Clefable who all look like big threats. I don't know whether SpD Resttalk or Bulky DD is better, but looking at the pokemon that will be common on the ladder, being able to stay healthy with Rest is pretty nice.

+

+

XY Stallbreakers don't have to worry about Mega Sableye anymore, which is pretty awesome because they don't have to run SD (in case of Gliscor and Talonflame) or Bulk Up (in case of Talonflame) to be a good stallbreaker. Gliscor is the one that looks most promising because many there were quiet a few mega's that could stop him (offensive mega venusaur, mega sableye, mega slowbro) and Taunt + Toxic can still be a pain to deal with for balanced cores

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I am for sure looking foward to this ladder and experiment. It was hard to build a team with the pressure of other megas, but those worries are gone. Tho, Knock off will be greaT NOW.

 

[benallaire]

hmm very interesting definitely something ill love to try out. will be very fun to bring me back to the days of bw this lader will basically be bw with no weather wars seeing as we didnt get all that many amazing kalos mons bar ninja

 

[Cresselia92]

I'm actually looking forward to this! I've already built some Mega-less teams (because I love to go against the tide) and I'll surely try this new ladder.

We could consider this a sort of "What if Game Freak never created the Mega Evolution?" metagame. Sounds fun. :)

 

[Red King]

A large amount of OU's winconditions are now gone, as most teams often used a mega pokemon as their winconditions. Teambuilding is also changed, especially on balance and stall as heavy weights like Charizard Y and Gardevoir will no longer be threats. Pokemon like Amoonguss might be seen more as they take over the slots mega venusaur might have held. Lots of pokemon like Bisharp who haven't often be featured as primary winconditions might be used as such. Loss of magic bouncers like Diancie and Sableye will have a large impact on pokemon like Talonflame and Volcorona who appreciated them. Terrakions gonna make a comeback. This changes the meta in such a massive way.

 

[Enki]

This is actually VERY interesting, Mega Evolutions introduced a terrible Power Creep this gen, seeing how the Metagame will fare without them, maybe even if it will be more healthy than the current one will be a very interesting experience, perhaps in the future it can be extended even on Tournaments when we get to see a more "focused" playerbase.

 

[blank]

Considering Mega Evolutions were one of the biggest features added in Gen 6, and (imo) brought more good than bad with their introduction, I don't think this should be sitting next to OU as (for lack of a better term) an "official" alternative. Rather, I think introducing a whole new OM centered around no mega evolutions would be great. Also, it could be a No Mega umbrella that has no mega variants of other tiers too.
but thats just my opinion

 

[jpw234]

I hate to sound like a killjoy, but what is this meant to accomplish? I highly doubt that we're leading in to a "ban all megas in OU" proposal (please just let us know if this is the case), so is this actually just a side-metagame with no planned relevance to the official environments?

As far as my 2 cents, it sounds like a pretty awful metagame to me. Mega evolutions were a really nice jolt to the Gen 6 metagame that I very much enjoyed and I see no appeal in getting rid of them. Ofc it's no skin off my back, I just won't play there.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Wow, the offensive side of the Fairy type took a massive hit. I mean, we've still got Azumarill, Clefable, and I guess Specs Sylveon, but losing the Megas of Gardevoir, Diancie, and Altaria is pretty huge. It basically means that having a sturdy Fairy resist is a lot less mandatory (although still handy, since Clefable and Azumarill are as dangerous as ever).

It's been said before, but Landorus looks really powerful in this metagame. Like I said in another thread, Mega Metagross is probably the one Pokemon in OU that I'd put on Landorus's level right now, and it's absence means that Landorus stands out to me as the best Pokemon in the metagame. Who knows though, this metagame might end up being kinder to things like Lati@s and Gyarados, which means it'll be less kind to Landorus as a result.

Losing Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Mega Venusaur, etc. is a pretty big hit to stall. Megas have always been integral parts of stall teams depending on which one you choose, so that'll change how stall plays. On the flipside, the lack of powerful offensive Megas like the Mega Charizards and Mega Gallade gives stall players a little more breathing room, so it's not a total loss.

My old friend Terrakion looks like he's going to be a lot better off in this metagame. There's no longer Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie to put a stop to its Stealth Rock lead set, and he loses a TON of checks; the Megas of Metagross, Altaria, Lopunny, Sceptile, Alakazam, Diancie, Slowbro, Sableye, Gallade, Venusaur, and maybe some others I'm forgetting could all keep Terrakion in check one way or another, so the loss of all of them really helps it out.

That's all that jumps out at me at the moment. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I hear Charizard crying in a corner somewhere, and I wish to go console him.

 

[mlaw3k]

Wow, the offensive side of the Fairy type took a massive hit. I mean, we've still got Azumarill, Clefable, and I guess Specs Sylveon, but losing the Megas of Gardevoir, Diancie, and Altaria is pretty huge. It basically means that having a sturdy Fairy resist is a lot less mandatory (although still handy, since Clefable and Azumarill are as dangerous as ever).

It's been said before, but Landorus looks really powerful in this metagame. Like I said in another thread, Mega Metagross is probably the one Pokemon in OU that I'd put on Landorus's level right now, and it's absence means that Landorus stands out to me as the best Pokemon in the metagame. Who knows though, this metagame might end up being kinder to things like Lati@s and Gyarados, which means it'll be less kind to Landorus as a result.

Losing Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Mega Altaria, Mega Venusaur, etc. is a pretty big hit to stall. Megas have always been integral parts of stall teams depending on which one you choose, so that'll change how stall plays. On the flipside, the lack of powerful offensive Megas like the Mega Charizards and Mega Gallade gives stall players a little more breathing room, so it's not a total loss.

My old friend Terrakion looks like he's going to be a lot better off in this metagame. There's no longer Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie to put a stop to its Stealth Rock lead set, and he loses a TON of checks; the Megas of Metagross, Altaria, Lopunny, Sceptile, Alakazam, Diancie, Slowbro, Sableye, Gallade, Venusaur, and maybe some others I'm forgetting could all keep Terrakion in check one way or another, so the loss of all of them really helps it out.

That's all that jumps out at me at the moment. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I hear Charizard crying in a corner somewhere, and I wish to go console him.

I don't wan't be a killjoy either but the meta already just sounds like Gen 5 but without the weather wars and gems from this description. Looks like a lot things that were good in Gen 5 are going to have a field day once again. Interesting to see how it actually turns out though.

*goes to look through old pastebins*

 

[Enki]

I don't wan't be a killjoy either but the meta already just sounds like Gen 5 but without the weather wars and gems from this description. Looks like a lot things that were good in Gen 5 are going to have a field day once again. Interesting to see how it actually turns out though.

*goes to look through old pastebins*

That's debatable, to begin with Gen 5 didn't have a boosted Knock off and Dark/Ghost types hitting Steel types for neutral damage, defog was also useless back then, and they were no fairy types (which sure, we lost a bunch of them but Clefable and Azumarill, actually even Sylveon are solid choices.), Talonflame didn't exist just like Assault Vest, and really, Weather, 'nuff said.
Of course maybe these changes won't be enough to make no mega ORAS OU different than BW2 OU, but isn't it better to see this with our own eyes instead of only applyng theorymon on it?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Lets also start more of a discussion, What pokemon do you see being used more often? Personally, I see knock off users flying in usage and stallbreakers like mew also get a huge buff.

 

[Wargreymon]

Considering mega Pokemon that are perceived as "balanced" might eventually be implemented, this almost seems like a metagame with a hidden agenda. You know, for the people who are still upset with Metagross suspect result. Watch as every mega gets introduced eventually except Metagross and maybe Diancie. Secretly banning them from OU when the suspect tests don't go as planned by excluding them from a new OU tier. lol

 

[Bunselpower]

I get it, everyone is free to do what they want. And I really don't want to start any arguments or anything. But why are we still trying to shoehorn the 4th (and 5th) gen metagames into the current one? Or rather, the other way around. I like the tiering system, and it was great when it was invented, it gives a lot of Pokemon a chance to be viable. And, again, you are free to battle how you want. But this reeks of what happened when the Smash community saw Brawl come out. It wasn't to their liking, because they had become VERY used to a certain playstyle, so instead of embracing the new game, they became entirely insulated, and didn't resist changes, they ignored them. Now they are one of the most shut off and unapproachable communities out there, essentially making their barrier to enter so large that they shut off the gates for new members. I don't want to see this happen to Smogon, because I like singles and I believe in the tiering system.

Not trying to insinuate anything, because this metagame does sound interesting, certain lower stat Pokemon that rely on typing may come back now, just making an observation that we need to be careful how much we resist change and not isolate ourselves.

 

[Enki]

Lets also start more of a discussion, What pokemon do you see being used more often? Personally, I see knock off users flying in usage and stallbreakers like mew also get a huge buff.

I'm interested in seeing if U-turn Landorus-Incarnate, paired with Scarf Tyranitar will see an usage rise, hazard removal will be much more important imo now that Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie (especially Mega Sableye) will be banned, so this will bring more demand for Starmie, Latios and Latias, U-turn Lan attracts Lati@s while Scarf Tyranitar can finish them off, and help later Landorus or other stuff like Keldeo.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I have also heard about the duo of Keldeo and Bisharp being pretty good. What do you Guys think about that? Also, how do you think the Kalos pokemon will play in this.

 

[Karxrida]

I personally don't think we should reintroduce any of the Megas as time goes on, since a Mega-less metagame sounds very different and fun on its own.

 

[Holiday]

In the 10 or so battles I've completed, I'm getting the mindset that weather is supposed to be the big thing now, which I don't really understand. One Pokemon I'm using to great effect is this qt3.14

Banded Crawdaunt has a pretty unique ability to threaten all of the weathers pretty well (as well as basically any pokemon) since it nets a 2HKO or OHKO on all setter of weather with a stupidly powerful Knock Off or Crabhammer. Aqua Jet also bones the very common TTar+Exca core, as it is an OHKO on the latter, and depending on the former's spread can be an OHKO. Crawdaunt also benefits from Rain boosting Crabhammer to ridiculous levels. Typical Sun walls like Bronzong get boned by Knock Off, and our BL Ruffian makes a good core with Sharp Beak Talonflame who demolishes Chlorophyll sweepers Crawdaunt only wished he could take on.

I reccommend that you guys experiment with some of the BL pokes. Might surprise you how well the perform in a mega less tier.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I think it is pretty amazing how many people are thinking this meta will be gen 5. There are a lot of changes between 5th and 6th besides Mega Evolution:

1) 5-8 turn weather max-No brainer here.
2) Knock Off Buff-This move will be stupidly strong, when it was a no show in 5th
3) Hidden Power is base 60 instead of 70 max-Weakens coverage of pokemon.
4) Fairy Type-I don't know how people don't think this will have an impact.....
5) Other Type chart changes-Steel is weaker over all, Dark and Ghost are more spamable.
6) New pokemon-Well only 1 is currently OU others may get a chance to shine without Megas
7) Defog-Huge hazard control option
8) No Egg move restriction-Pokemon are not limited in Egg Move combos, meaning more move combos are open for use.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I forgot one, but this meta will be so different than 5th gens, and will be way better. (Screw Perma-rain)

*By how many people, I am not referring to posters on this thread, just opinions I have seen on the internet.

 

[thesecondbest]

Considering mega Pokemon that are perceived as "balanced" might eventually be implemented, this almost seems like a metagame with a hidden agenda. You know, for the people who are still upset with Metagross suspect result. Watch as every mega gets introduced eventually except Metagross and maybe Diancie. Secretly banning them from OU when the suspect tests don't go as planned by making a mega-less OU lol.

Oh god, if that happens.... I think smogon would be butthurt about no ban on meta :(
Also why don't we make a ladder for ubers no twave, ru no cress, nu no hariyama? This is a really stupid way for bannning things. IMO for uu, just suspect suicune, don't ban scald. But this will actually be fun, unless they actually reintroduce every mega except metagross