Time for Satan's favorite infidel's opinions on lots of stuff. He's still lost in slump city so please forgive him for any opinions that may seem like they were formed in la-la land
Also never used gallade but just one thing to say is now most of machamp are focus sash and aero are power herb and sometimes azelf is colbur berry to handle machamp in some offensives teams and for the sd late game sweeper lucario is definitively better for this so i think he should drop to C+
Gallade beats Sash Champ, Payback doesn't kill. You might even flinch with Zen Headbutt. Power Herb Aero is fair enough but you can't really take that into account. Azelf loses to CC + Shadow Sneak, it's the CB variants you have to watch out for.
for your consideration: Spiritomb for C rank in lead
Tomb isn't the greatest lead in the world but Shadow Ball/Sneak/WoW/HP Fighting modest with Lum/Spell Tag dents most leads out there, lets Zelf only get up rocks, beats Machamp, WoWs loom if you run lum, limits fros to a layer of spikes and it can't dbond you at all, WoWs ttar, forces Starmie out, etc.
A la UU! It sounds fun. I'd be more tempted to pull an august and use HP Ground though since like you said you'd rather burn Ttar. I'll give it a shot and probably add it at some point. Aerodactyl Legend makes good points and a lot of leads send it scurrying - Empoleon, Zapdos, 4 attack Lum Gross (not to mention even if it's SR Lum you have to hit WoW twice and are taking damage from Meteor Mash you don't get back, yuck) - but I think it deserves a spot. Against Azelf it's probably not too hard to predict the switch out from Sneak (and they might suspect Pursuit).
I don't think Zapdos belongs to the S-rank at all. It's much less versatile than the current S-rank Pokemons and doesn't serve an unique purpose like Starmie (spinning) or Rotom (spinblocking). I'd even consider putting Rotom over Zapdos because it represents the metagame that much more to me (one of the most common scarfer and most used spinblocker).
I think Zap is a lot more versatile than people give it credit for. Its offensive sets already have a lot of ways they can swing, and then you get into its supporting capabilities, which includes being able to run a defensive set on either side of the spectrum with a ton of great options. I remember Snype using Sub Roost with BP over Toxic/HP Ice, and it was great. Not that it's suddenly going to be OHKOing Blisseys and Hippowdons, but it isn't nearly as limited as most people think.
Rotom might be more iconic but overall it doesn't quite perform at the same level. I think the second A+ is fine for it.
Gengar is more suited to A than A+ to me. ScarfTtar is just too present in DPP to make Gengar as reliable as you want it to be. Jirachi is everywhere too and it always checks Gengar in a pinch. SpDef Skarm, another tier favorite, checks all the Tbolt/Taunt-less variants, and these variants have troubles staying healthy throughout the battle. It's also rather frail and doesn't get a lot of OHKO. Still a great Pokemon, don't get me wrong, but these flaws prevent it to be A+ in my book.
I grudgingly agree, although I must point out that while facing Scarftar (the only Tar variant that can safely get rid of Gar! all the DD/CB/mix/whatever other funky sets are dead in the water) isn't exactly what the Gar user wants, it's something they have in mind and will take advantage of - not to mention getting it in isn't exactly easy. Getting Gar Pursuited by Scarftar and then getting swept right back by Luke is the oldest trick in the book. Also, I fucking love when Gengar switches into Scarftar EQ/Superpower because that's 2 kills before they even have another shot at revenging it.
On the subject of SDef Skarm: it can't even switch safely into LO Focus Blast with SR up, discounting accuracy it's a ~98% chance to get 2HKOed after Leftovers. Switching into anything else for a one-on-one, yeah it wins unless Gar gets very lucky, it's an ~8% chance to 2HKO from full through Lefties. Nitpicking though, Skarm is one of the better checks for sure, just realizing that a lot of people (myself included) are weaker to Gar than they realize and some smart users (like am, he always got a ton of mileage out of it) take advantage. Anyway yes, Will-o-Wisp completely cripples it and I've never been too bothered about not healing because while it isn't great although I've never found those sets' being worn down as an issue, not as much as being wary of Scarf Pursuit or hitting attacks at least (almost nothing scarier than an accurate Hypnosis Gar). Gar remains in A
.
Celebi has a lot of flaws that would make me drop it to A-. Taking full damages from every hazards, being Pursuit weak, quad U-turn weak and Spikes bait for Skarmory (and Roserade) is huge. The big problem with these flaws is that they put you in such a bad position for the whole game.
Having to switch out of U-turn gives momentum to your opponent and God knows how much momentum is important in DPP. Allowing Skarmory to Spikes on your face puts you on a timer for the rest of your game/force you to Spin. I think these downsides are too important for Celebi to remain in A.
I think if you drop Cele, you drop Shay. Seed Flare, no Pursuit weak, no Shadow Ball weak, U-turn weak isn't as bad, yes yes I know and of course Shay is overall better. However, Cele has a lot of tools over it - Fight resist, Psychic resist (Superachi), Recover, U-turn, Calm Mind is a much better sweeper than GrowthMin, Trick for the Scarf set,
Thunder Wave which no Ground-type wants to switch in on when paired with HP Ice. That's not even my main argument though, it's that the same things that beat Cele tend to be similarly effective against Shay. In fact, I've seen Celebi deal with U-turns more effectively than Shaymin because the latter can't heal up as fast and thus the hit leaves a more lasting impact. Cele is also not exactly easy to Pursuit, I think I've seen more Scarftar snipe fleeing ~half-health offensive Shaymin (and defensive doesn't love taking hits either because again, recovery issues - Rest is alright, but...) than most Cele (who tend to be bulked out). That said, I think they're both fine where they are, but I think they go together with Shay slightly above it.
Gyarados higher in the A rank, right above or below Lucario. Such a terrifying sweeper with a ton of coverage options to play around its checks. It also pairs ridiculously well with Pursuit Ttar to play around the most common of them (Starmie/Rotom).
Gyara is terrifying and I've been feeling the old ResTalker again lately, but its SR weakness means that in sand you can chip away at it pretty easily to finish it off with priority or your Scarfer (obv doesn't apply if their fastest dude is Scarftar, in which case Gyara is usually extremely dangerous if it's got Taunt which unfortunately is rarer now). No denying how dangerous it is especially early game with SR on the opponent's side and Wacan, but I don't think it's quite there, it just barely falls short.
I'd reorganize the A- rank a little bit. Roserade or Cune below Aerodactyl as 2nd/3rd (Roserade in particular is pretty much the best TSpiker of the tier and an OK Spiker too). Empoleon following these two, above Machamp (Empoleon is almost as good of an anti-lead and can provide SR/makes a deadly finisher on top of that). I have a hard time ranking Kingdra because I think DD is B-worthy while the RD sets are incredibly more dangerous and borderline A worthy. Agree with M Dragon on B+ for Forretress, the only thing I like about it is its ability to fuck with fat builds who rely on Ttar to "pseudo-spinblock" by killing Starmie and thus don't use a Rotom.
I agree about all those guys being strong but the reason I don't want to move them up is because of Machamp's incredible ability to put the fear of the devil in anyone not running Spiritomb/a Slow twin. I can't emphasize enough how much of a fucker he is. As much as I like it, I wouldn't rank Rose
that high. I wish we could transfer its defense boost from gen 6 back by 2 gens...
Forretress I could maybe get behind, but all the Swampert/Hippo + Skarm shit I see is begging Forret to sit on it. After picking it up again recently, I think it's just good enough to be the last A- poke, although putting it in B+ wouldn't kill anyone if it comes to that. I ragged on it as much as anyone but it really puts pressure on those semistalls like little else can and as you said with Rade, TS are amazing - plus, he gets way easier setup than Rose against the bulky ground dudes cause she's 2HKOed and he sits in all day (I do think a +Def nature is required though so they can't just hit you a few times and call it a day). Explosion is underrated on it as well, makes it a nice way for defensive teams to deal with Gyara/Kingdra/Nite/Ape/Gon. It'd be really funny to get 5 layers of spikes on CM Clef and then bomb it. For now, it'll stay.
I'd move down Mamoswine and Jolteon to B.
Mamo has a lot of issues, there's no denying that... but
fuck he's so strong. LO (preferably Adamant although sometimes you will need Jolly unfortunately) Shard / EQ / SE / Superpower crushes everything besides Skarm, whose SDef set doesn't want to take the latter two attacks when at low health. Mag's shooting up in popularity because of Glis but I think it helps Mamo out a hell of a lot as well. That said its issues are pretty big but it's got so much wrecking potential that I don't have the heart to drop it just yet. I'll play around with it.
On Jolteon, I am definitely more adamant about it staying. It'll blow up a lot of teams by virtue of strong STAB TBolt like our pal Zapdos does, I daresay possibly even more because of its incredible speed putting it ahead of a lot of pokes that try to revenge Zapdos - Scarftar, Starmie, Gengar, Infernape. It even outruns Adamant +1 Gyara/Nite! Okay, it's a good deal weaker, not nearly as bulky, doesn't have ground immune, yadda yadda. However, what it does have is Volt Absorb, and thus the ability to check Zapdos. That's a big deal. It doesn't even have to go Specs/LO (Magnet?), my favorite sets have been Wish variants. Of course, Specs TBolt never gets old. Oh and Baton Pass means it can avoid every Pursuit in OU unlike big bird and another guy, Rotom. Nothing like Subbing on the Tar switch and BPing to Luc.
I'd move down Vaporeon to B- (there are a lot of reasons that explains why it's almost not used at all these days).
I agree that Vap was the poke possibly hit hardest by the Breloom/bulky Starmie surge, but it still has its way with a lot of offense like no other. Being one of the hardest counters to Empoleon, RD Kingdra and DD Gyara is amazing. I don't think it quite deserves B- but I'm open to this for sure.
I'd move up Weavile to B (coverage and speed are killers vs a lot of teams, especially with Mag support).
I will probably do this after I play around with it some more. My only issue is I wish it could fit 5 moves - it wants all of Shard, Ice Punch, Low Kick, Night Slash and Pursuit.
Finally, I'd argue Jirachi has a case for being the tier's best Pokemon over Tyranitar, but I'm not very opiniated on the matter. While Tyranitar shapes the tier like no other, Jirachi's weaknesses are harder to abuse and it has literally 0 sure-fire counters (unlike Tyranitar with Hippowdon).
Even Hippo dies to two CB Aqua Tails!
I'm a Tar guy but I would like to see more on this.
man it just seems flat out wrong to have kingdra juxtaposed to suicune tbh. i rly dislike cune in general but kingdra ain't rly cuttin the a- bill for me. dd sets r bad b.c. they invite the omnipresent skarm in and allow it to ww or even spike+ww.. it's generally weak af. rd sets are cooler but it requires way more support and is way more linear than shit like machamp and roserade imo.
Don't forget Specs! Your average non-Bliss defensive team (which still isn't usually the first switch) gets absolutely shredded by it without the need to set up and then still be annoyed by dumb Tar. The choice between Timid and Modest makes me cry but it's still really strong. Anyway these two sets, along with having to respect DD (which isn't terrible alongside RD), makes it fine in the versatility department, similar to other pokes in the rank. Plus its RD set is just... destructive beyond words.
aero ain't better than azelf since u choose ur suicide leads based on a variety of factors..... i'd say they're pretty equal and the better machamp matchup factor + fast boom ain't nothing to trifle with.. i mean aero gets the jump on azelf, but being better... ? big logical leaps goin on. i'd def rate azelf higher since it's way more versatile.. u never kno what it's gonna be running (it can even run 4 atks in the back) and u already kno aerodactyl is gonna be sash or a random ass white herb. not to mention band azelf which is p good esp in a tour environment.
I think Azelf's best attribute is that it doesn't invite Starmie in for immediate Spin mindgames. As a lead, it's better (it can even fuck Aero over with TrickScarf!), as a non-lead Aero is way better but also has issues. So yes I agree that they're ranked correct-ish.
blissey ain't a- either tho marinara. no idea what u smokin. it's the most reliable sr'r in the tier and can hard wall a shitton of squads.. i remember bab usin it in tour and it owned the fuckin standard azelf/gyara/luc/meta/ttar/dnite squad soge loves reppin wit a few proper switches and twaves.
I don't think it's the best SRer and there are so many games I use Bliss in where I feel it's chipped at/taken advantage of so damn easily (and makes me wish I were running Clef with the same set), but it shuts down so much shit that I agree it pretty much has to stay in A because who doesn't enjoy free wins against RD Kingdra + Empoleon teams.
Same goes for Starmie regarding the Scarf Tyranitar weakness,
McMeghan . Some of you may know that I usually bring no water resistances in DPP and probably wonder why I do so. First of all, Starmie is a really good Pokémon I wont deny that but it is
extremely overrated. I am 10 times more scared by Kingdra, Empoleon and Suicune than a stupid Starmie that most of the times lacks either Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. I'd rather have a Tyranitar (Scarf or Passho) or a tanky Jirachi than a Shaymin or Suicune that both are 2HKO'd by IBeam/Thunderbolt from a LO Starmie. Just my point of view, and I'd say my recent performances in DPP proved me right. Second thing, Starmie is weak to U-Turn which actually makes it "weak to Infernape" in a certain way. This will lead to my next point. To make it short,
Starmie A+, definitely not S.
I think the bulky sets are overrated because people are incapable of playing with hazards on their side of the field and thus switch it willy-nilly into Skarm, Pert, everything, I see Starmies sac themselves against others just to get a spin off on turn 10. If they were played with more restraint and not in a "get rid of hazards at all costs" mindset, they would be a lot better at both spinning and at Star's forgotten talents, breaking open holes and/or taking people to the cleaners lategame. LO is simply terrifying still, I agree that a lot of people are in for unpleasant surprises when switching Rose/Shay/Tar in when it pops up again. Overall Star's impact on the meta is so huge and I don't think I can drop it because people play it like morons, especially switching it into Infernape willy-nilly as you said.
Infernape S Rank, all day. Infernape is the deadliest sweeper of the tier. I'm still amazed that a lot of people still haven't realized that Infernape is a guaranteed win 90% of the times. If you look closely to my DPP Cup games or Go10's SPL/Tour/WCop games, he and I won pretty much everytime with Infernape because no one brings real counters to it. What makes it so scary? Its Speed, Double Stab, and U-Turn. People think that Starmie is a safe counter to Infernape until they have their Heatran in front of an Infernape and take 200 seconds to stay in or send in Starmie on the possible U-Turn. Always hilarious to watch. I could also argue on the fact that most of the current Stall Teams (Heist's) are weak to NPlot Infernape. Infernape's only flaw is its weakness to all hazards, but I suppose that you're allowed to pair it up with a Spinner. Oh also, Rotom-W and Gengar are good checks if you want to RK it but because of U-Turn (yo Pursuiter behind) and because they are both OHKO'd by FireBlast/Flare Blitz, I'm not sure if you really want to consider these as "counters".
The Heatran v. Infernape scenario you described is why I like to use Chople on Tran. Anyway I agree Ape is terrifying with the right support (which is very little and nothing out of the ordinary), his checks bar Nidoqueen, Hippowdon, Swampert and Gliscor have the same issues Loom's do: SR, Pursuit, U-turn (which Ape uses himself!) and being annoyed by sand. You'll notice that the the latter three aren't really great checks since special mix just unloads on them and I agree, however that set forgoes U-turn which makes it so dangerous (and Mach has a lot of nice utility checking dangerous sweepers) and makes Starmie not a great switchin (not that throwing out GK immediately is bad because people will go to Pert/Hippo a lot too, but it's just not the same).
I'm not a fan of setup Ape but I agree that a lot of teams would get run through should it grab a boost. Sometimes I like to use Tenta alongside Ape instead of Starmie to make sure TS don't rain on my parade. I've also been thinking about not using LO because those stalls you mentioned are often just gonna try to switch around, wearing it down that way.
So to the part where I don't think it's quite S although I'm definitely considering it higher in A+ now... it's not even that it's frail, Ape switches in a lot more easily than you'd think, surprisingly. However, it isn't exactly shrugging off resisted hits with impunity, it sometimes has to predict a hell of a lot to get things done, and can't pack all the moves that it wants in addition to getting worn down really quickly. It's why I like EBelt on special Mixape a lot. This isn't to say it's not an incredible poke, it is and is pretty defining, but it just doesn't have those game-in game-out performances that the S rank does, although it can certainly match any of them in terms of being explosive.
Gengar A+ and I would even argue about S Rank if you want my deepest opinion. ... Gengar has no real counters and don't even try to argue about that because ScarfTyranitar is a thing. First of all, if you really want to revenge kill it with Ttar you pretty much have to sacrifice something because we all know you don't have the balls to send in your only real answer to Gengar on a Shadow Ball because your opponent could be smarter than belgian people and predict you with a Focus Blast. What if your opponent ... decide to click Substitute on the switch when you brought your death fodder? What do you click? Forfeit. Gengar is also one of the best stallbreakers of the metagame thanks to Pain Split/Taunt and its resistances/immunities. Gengar also has access to Hypnomiss and Will O Wisp to get past its main counters/checks aka Scizor/Jirachi.
S is kind of a stretch but yeah this explains why Gengar is amazing pretty well. If your offensive team has a Tar like it tends to and it isn't Scarf, odds are Gar is gonna bust you up a good amount and even Scarftar isn't the end-all be-all.
Skarmory, Breloom -> A Rank. I'm already bored of writing, but as much as I love those 2 I really don't think they are A+ Rank. They can either be extremely good or dead weights (mainly Breloom) which is why it bothers me to put them A+.
I'll just c/p my Breloom argument from the end of the old thread
Breloom needs to stay in A+, it is not hit or miss at all. There is nothing that so easily and consistently threatens defensive teams while still giving you a buffer against dangerous offensive pokes like oh I don't know, Tyranitar's STABs... and the LO Aero that 6-0es everyone. Not to mention Mach Punch checks a fuckload of threatening guys, like DDtar, Emp, AgiliLuc, ScarfTran). Plus, a lot of offense falls back on Swampert as a glue for Zap/ScarfTran/Tar/etc and there's Loom's free entry. You're still effective against offense, just not as much as against slower dudes obviously. For the later gen guys, liken it to BW2/ORAS Landorus against offense, except Loom's a decent bit better. Against a bulky team it comes in so easily, it's SR resistant and heals in sand despite being affected by it. This is so big - you cannot rely on mostly passive damage to play around it like you do a lot of pokes, and you can't even revenge it with Scarftar reliably because of Mach. All its defensive checks have crippling issues - SR, Pursuit, and U-turn. None of them are sand immune either. The only exception to this is Aerial Ace/Impish Ice Fang Gliscor, but that's pretty niche and you still have to sac something to sleep before sending it in - plus, no Restalker is a good response to Loom. Please keep it in A+, he's one of a kind.
As for Skarm; some players/teams overwhelm him with little effort, but he's just so good that even when he's a "dead weight" he's still got use. Plus when he's on, little is more annoying to deal with. I think he should stay but more opinions are welcome
Empoleon -> A+. No seriously lol. If there's a Pokémon I'd bring a water resist for, it is definitely Empoleon.
Emp tears a lot of common water resists up too! I love penguin but he has a few issues.
First, the lead set. I don't think Aqua Jet is necessary cause it's terribly weak and any good player will switch their low HP poke out of it, and Emp really likes the coverage brought by IB + GK. I tried 4 attack Emp a lot, forgoing SR, but it does not have good synergy with the best SR pokes, and Aqua Jet was just not that good, plus there were a lot of games where I'd have really liked the turn 1 SR. What I did like about it was that I didn't have to decide between getting SR and being pretty much 6-5 down or basically 5-5 with no SR. I think the best way to do it is to run SR 3 attacks with another poke having SR so in those SR-or-kill scenarios you take the KO knowing you can still SR later while being free to SR against Hippo and Pert turn 1, but you're not always going to be able to fit it, and there's still the whole synergy ordeal.
Then there's Agility. Obviously this dude is amazing but too often he gets played around by non-water resists. He can't outrun Scarf Rotom unless he goes Timid, in which case he has even more issues getting played around. Resist berries are cool but he can't have all of them, LO makes him die a lot although SDef Skarm stalling him is now a thing of the past. SubPetaya is super good, I like him the most, but sometimes the lack of coverage will bite. This makes it sound like I don't think Empoleon is a gg machine, which is totally is, but I don't think he's out-and-out consistent enough to hang in A.
I don't think anybody considers Starmie as S-rank for its offensive capabilities, but because it's pretty much the only reliable Spinner of the tier, on top of having good offensive abilities. ScarfTtar (and PasshoTtar) is so popular because of Starmie. It has such a big importance in the hazard game that it's been the second most used Pokemon in DPP for all of Smogon Tour 19 (except the last week where it was 3rd) and it's currently 2nd in Smogon Tour 20's usage (3rd overall for Season 18). It's thanks to Starmie that you can make some set-up sweepers so much more threatening just because of a one-time Spin. While Starmie might only be A+ for the reasons you listed (aka an overrated sweeper, which I totally agree with), it has a case to stay in S for its support's prowess.
If you don't want it in S, you should make arguments as to why it's an unreliable spinner.
I agree with the spinning points but I don't think it's an overrated sweeper because no one actually tries to sweep with it since they're so anal about hazards going up. Hold your Starmie back and let it loose lategame, it'll rip shit apart, or if you send it out midgame focus on blasting shit rather than spinning at all costs. The lategame thing goes for Suicune as well who gets misused quite a bit.
Gengar's main offensive option outside of Shadow Ball is the ever so unreliable Focus Blast. I remember the bab saying about an Hypnosis Gengar squad: "When Hypnosis hits, I usually win, when it doesn't, I lose." and that pretty much sums up Gengar. You mention WoW/Hypnosis as great ways to play around its checks, and I'm starting to see a trend here, all of Gengar's options are just not reliable.
When you think about it, let's say you play perfectly with your Gengar and has to rely on Hypnosis or Focus Blast to win the game. You will lose 1 game out of 3 (roughly) because statistically speaking, you will miss Focus Blast 30% of the time and Hypnosis 40% of the time (and who doesn't have stories about missing these moves like 4 times in a row lol).
Unfortunately, this is accurate, unlike Gengar.
Add to that the natural frailty of Gengar coupled with the fact that it struggles with the best Pokemon of the tier (Jirachi*) and you have the reasons why I think it's A rank. Definitly has a case for A+, but certainly not obvious either.
*Talking about Jirachi, SpDef Jirachi is an hard counter to Sub PainSplit Gengar, and if Gengar lacks Sub or Pain Split to play around Jirachi with WoW, then it will lack the move to protect itself from ScarfTar (Sub) or the one that'll allow it to play around residual damages from Sand and LO (Pain Split).
Well WispGar runs Black Sludge/Leftovers and I don't think I've ever seen that Gar dealt with by forcing it to take SR in sand a bunch of times. Split is definitely not necessary, Taunt's the other move you might give up on. But overall yeah.
Good discussions, lol :P
