Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)

[Lolk]

Thanks to Bummer for the new sexy art!

Now that Pokebank is released, it's time to revamp these rankings!​

Welcome to the official Doubles Viability Rankings topic. In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon in the doubles metagame into "tiers". You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in doubles and what tier they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats. If you have a good case to add something to a tier, please provide good reasoning and evidence (although same goes for if you want to move something). Good luck and happy posting! :)

S-RANK

Reserved for the top threats in the Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.

Charizard

Kangaskhan

Landorus-T

A-RANK

Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support Pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank.The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support.

A+ Rank:

Amoonguss

Heatran

Politoed

Rotom-W

Terrakion

Thundurus

Togekiss

A Rank:

Aegislash

Azumarill

Bisharp

Cresselia

Gengar

Gyarados

Hydreigon

Jirachi

Kyurem-Black

Latios

Mawile

Scizor

Shaymin-Sky

Talonflame

Tyranitar

Venusaur

A- Rank:

Breloom

Conkeldurr

Excadrill

Garchomp

Gardevoir

Genesect

Keldeo

Ludicolo

B-RANK

Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the Doubles metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to it's full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.

B+ Rank:

Chandelure

Ferrothorn

Hitmontop

Rotom-H

Scrafty

Suicune

Sylveon

B Rank:

Abomasnow

Aerodactyl

Aromatisse

Darkrai

Deoxys-Attack

Escavalier

Gothitelle

Gourgeist-S

Heracross

Jellicent

Kingdra

Klefki

Lucario

Mamoswine

Manectric

Salamence

Thundurus-Therian

Volcarona

Weavile

Zapdos

B- Rank:

Goodra

Infernape

Landorus

Latias

Mew

Pinsir

Sableye

Tornadus

C-RANK

Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the Doubles metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.

C+ Rank:

Ampharos

Blastoise

Milotic

Raikou

Rhyperior

Staraptor

Victini

Whimsicott
C Rank:

Blaziken

Dragonite

Dusclops

Entei

Gallade

Gastrodon

Greninja

Hariyama

Kyurem

Liepard

Machamp

Manaphy

Medicham

Meowstic-M

Metagross

Musharna

Porygon 2

Reuniclus

Raikou

Rhyperior

Slowbro

Slowking

Trevenant

Virizion

Zygarde

D-Rank

Many niche Pokemon can be squeezed into Doubles teams due to a certain move or ability (niche Wide Guard or Intimidate users, for example). Many Pokemon fit here, but none of them have a place in the metagame solid enough to have a special spot on the rankings.

Examples of D-rank Pokemon

Arcanine
Banette
Celebi
Cloyster
Houndoom
Jumpluff
Mantine
Noivern
Parasect
Rotom-C
Torterra
Vivillon

E-RANK

Either this Pokemon is only used for a gimmick, such as PerishTrap and ShuckleSplit, they are ridiculously and 100% outclassed, such as Deoxys-A > Alakazam and Charizard-Y > Ninetales, or they're only good in a different metagame and don't deserve the usage they get at all.

Examples of E-rank Pokemon

Alakazam
Blissey
Chansey
Clefable
Espeon
Flygon
Hippowdon
Jolteon
Mr. Mime
Ninetales
Shuckle
Everything else.

In the Future:

• We do plan on dividing each tier into sub-ranks and adding descriptions in the future when the rankings are more established and definite.

Recently Discussed Pokemon

High-quality posts that show much thought and depth in a subject earn a spot on this folder. This is a great resource to view examples of how post should look like. Also, use the it to check if a Pokemon has been discussed already so there are no repetitive nominations. Keep in mind, high quality posts make good things happen ;p

Pokemanz

Darkmalice

Golduck, Ludicolo, Abomasnow, Mantine, Ninetales
Skymin, Jolteon, Medicham, Porygon 2, Musharna, Gallade, Abomasnow, Deoxys-A
Bisharp, Zapdos, Victini, Scizor, Flygon

Laga

Rotom-W, Gengar, Volcarona, Amoonguss

Lasagne

Weavile, Blastoise, Ludicolo, Dragonite, Entei, Malamar, Zygarde, Gourgeist-S, Machamp, Goodra

Lolkomori

Sylveon, Togekiss, Houndoom, Infernape, Arcanine, Kingdra

Magcargo2

Aegislash, Rotom-W, Rhperior, Bisharp

Nollan

Lucario, Parasect, Whimsicott, Conkeldurr, Gourgeist, Heracross, Mr. Mime, Jellicent, Virizion, Torterra, Rotom-C

Please no one-liners or useless comments. All posts are subject to moderation. Have Fun! :)

 

[Laga]

Amoonguss from A -> B rank. Look at S rank - Both Heatran and Charizard are there, and they both kill the shit out of Amoonguss. Also somewhat outcalssed by kiss (new typing) and rachi (still good typing) as redirectors. Spore also got nerfed with the whole Grass-types and Overcoat buff.
I don't think I need more expansion on these reasons, and I think it is enough to warrant Amoonguss for B rank.

Gengar from B -> A rank. This is a bit of a sketchy one, since Gengar 1) fucking sucked last gen, and 2) is generally better in singles (esp its MEvo), but I have a few points to justify Gengar moving up.

1) STAB Ghost moves are amazing in gen 6. Idk what gamefreak was thinking when they let ghosts hit steels, but now they are only resisted by dark (and normal-types are immune, but normal-type is not a very good defensive typing).

2) Its mega evolution. Gengar and Mega-Gengar work a bit like Scizor and Mega-Scizor if you have more than one "potentila mega" on your team. You have no fucking clue which one it will be, and adds a lot to the unpredictability of your team (almost like a surprise Choice Scarf). Its MEvo is also really good, since Shadow Tag robs both opposing mons' abilities to switch out, and can help teammates find an optimal setup, and generally easing prediction a LOT.

3) Trick Room is fucking powerful. And Gengar (mostly Mega) does an amazing job at being a dickhead to all its setters. With access to the fantastic combination of STAB Shadow Ball (and Taunt for the really bulky mofos), it can pretty much prevent any TR from being set (at least turn 1). Maybe everything bar Mental Herb Cress, which is ridiculously situational. You may be thinking "but aromatisse", but then Sludge Bomb says hi.

4) Classic 120 BP Fighting / Ghost coverage is good as ever. I am pretty sure nothing resists Focus Blast + Shadow Ball, so it doesn't really have any super safe and consistent counters.

Aegislash from B -> A rank. Aegislash is one of the tier's top bulky wallbreakers, and it does its job extremely consistently, being able to tank powerful, super effective hits, and doing ridiculous damage back with great coverage. It also either completely fucks up TR teams (since they're super slow and lets Aegis hit them first) or works very well on them with 60 base Speed being easily low enough for a fit on a dedicated TR team.

It's defensive typing is also amazing, walling common Fighting-, Flying-, Steel-, and Bug-type Pokemon, which can potentially be used to build great defensive (and offensive) synergy to your team.


Thanks for making this Lolk :>

 

[youngjake93]

I like this list. I feel it is very representative of the meta. The only things that really stands out to me right now is B Rank feels too big.

Minor suggestions:
Slowbro down to C rank. Not really much reason to use it over Slowking and Slowking barely slides into B rank anyway imo.
Deoxy-A up to B rank. The Focus Sash is very good and giving it Sun support is not asking much in this meta. Superpower wrecks Tyranitar who would normally screw up sash sets.

 

[termi]

ok so here's a couple of things I think should change:

Rotom-W: S----->A
Rotom-W is great, no doubt, but while he is versatile, being capable of scouting, controlling speed, burning things and launching decently pwoerful spread moves, I generally find his bulk to be somewhat disappointing in doubles, and unlike in singles, he can't exploit Pain Split too successfully due to the more fast-paced meta. I generally find him working better in singles than in doubles thus far and therefor, I suggest we move him to A-rank for the time being.

Reuniclus: Add to B rank or maybe C rank
Dunno why he isn't on the rankings yet, but he remains one of the most powerful offensive Trick Room setters. He's got the bulk to survive a powerful neutral hit and his LO-boosted Psychic deals great damage to anything. Of course he's got some extra hordes to leap with this next gen, which is why he might to step down a few rankings, but he's certainly worth a spot on the rankings.

Dusclops: C----->B
I've actually seen a lot of successful Dusclops on the ladder. Dusclops' biggest flaw is the fact that he's massive Taunt bait, but Taunt isn't too common anymore and when Dusclops isn't hindered by that, you will find yourself facing something that is immune to Fake Out and ridiculously bulky. Aside from being able to set TR (which is really good this gen, mind), it can also pull its weight by supporting the team with Will-o-Wisp, Helping Hand, et cetera. Maybe his biggest downfall is that he faces competition from Cresselia, but being immune to Fake Out remains a big thing as a TR setter.

Rhyperior: C----->B
STAB Rock Slide and Earthquake coming off a base 140 Attack is still pretty fucking dangerous if you ask me. Wide Guard did get a buff, yes, but the most common Wide Guard spammer, Hitmontop, doesn't exactly like most TR setters (one half can't be touched by him and burns him, the other half simply kills him), meaning Rhyperior usually gets to fire off damn powerful spread attacks pretty easily. Its bad defensive typing is mitigated by its insane physical bulk + Solid Rock. Still solid (get it?).

There's some quick thoughts, I'll add more in the future.

 

[Magcargo]

Aegislash B ===> A-
Even though Aegislash is much worse in Doubles than it is in Singles and is relatively outclassed by Mega Mawile, I still believe that it should be moved up to low A-Rank. While it does lose to 4 out the 6 S-Rank Pokemon, it makes a fantastic check to many Pokemon in A-Rank, including Abomnasnow, Gardevoir, Hitmontop, Kyurem-B, Latios, Scizor, Terrakion, and Togekiss, as well as the former queen of Doubles, Cresselia. King's Shield is also very cool, as it can halve the Attack of common Pokemon that threaten it, such as Tyranitar and Talonflame. While being able to check all of these Pokemon is nice, Aegislash should be no higher than A- Rank due to its flaws, namely its weakness to Earthquake and Fire attacks.

ok so here's a couple of things I think should change:

Rotom-W: S----->A
Rotom-W is great, no doubt, but while he is versatile, being capable of scouting, controlling speed, burning things and launching decently pwoerful spread moves, I generally find his bulk to be somewhat disappointing in doubles, and unlike in singles, he can't exploit Pain Split too successfully due to the more fast-paced meta. I generally find him working better in singles than in doubles thus far and therefor, I suggest we move him to A-rank for the time being.

Rhyperior: C----->B
STAB Rock Slide and Earthquake coming off a base 140 Attack is still pretty fucking dangerous if you ask me. Wide Guard did get a buff, yes, but the most common Wide Guard spammer, Hitmontop, doesn't exactly like most TR setters (one half can't be touched by him and burns him, the other half simply kills him), meaning Rhyperior usually gets to fire off damn powerful spread attacks pretty easily. Its bad defensive typing is mitigated by its insane physical bulk + Solid Rock. Still solid (get it?).

There's some quick thoughts, I'll add more in the future.

I disagree with these two nominations. Rotom-W is one of the best check to some of Doubles's biggest threats, including Charizard Y, Sand Rush Excadrill, Landorus-T, Heatran, and Talonflame and has access to both Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, allowing it to choose between Halving the foe's attack or Speed. I still believe it is S-Rank.

Rhyperior is the perfect example of a High-Risk, High-Reward Pokemon. It has excellent attacking stats and two amazing STAB moves, but gets annihilated by Attacks such as Charizard-Y's Solar Beam and Politoed's Suf, while also getting countered by Landorus-T and to the lesser extent, Scarfty and Hitmontop. Its reliant on Trick Room to do much of anything, and even on Trick Room teams, I would much rather use Mega Mawile and Abomnasnow. I wouldn't mind Rhyperior going up, but as of now, I think it should remain where it is.

On another note, one thing that surprised me is Bisharp being C-Rank. I understand that the metagame has become much more harsh towards it, but STAB Sucker Punch is still a great revenge killing move, especially considering that Steel no longer resist Dark and Defiant is still a great ability against intimidate users. It also gets STAB Iron Head to defeat Fairy-types. I believe it is good enough to warrant a position in B-Rank.

 

[Lolk]

Magcargo 2 's post is a great example for what I am going to expect in this thread. While nominating Pokemon is fun, I expect a good 4 or 5 posts on each nomination so all of the pros/cons are listed before the change will happen. Mag made a nomination of his own and responded to Robert Alfons with solid, respectful facts. Idk if it's Hall of Fame quality until I have more posts to compare it to. :>

Also, I will take into consideration the amount of Likes a post gets so feel free to let me know you agree with them.

 

[kingofmars]

Heatran, Tyranitar and Rotom-W should not be in S tier. They just aren't good enough in this meta. While they're all certainly good and probably all A tier, I wouldn't say that they're up to par with monsters like cresselia in terms of utility, charizard in terms of weather control and power and kangaskhan in terms of effective mindgames and damage. I know that all of the doubles tier leaders are fan boys for heatran but seriously it isn't that good.

Gardevoir should be B tier, it's lost a lot of its effectiveness now that more pokemon have been introduced.

Azumarill to A tier, that thing does so much damage it's insane

Lucario should be in B tier at least for sure, adaptability does stupid damage and with support the thing is crazy good
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 417-491 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
like seriously though
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 432-512 (115.5 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
like honestly

how is this not a tier

 

[youngjake93]

Heatran, Tyranitar and Rotom-W should not be in S tier. They just aren't good enough in this meta. While they're all certainly good and probably all A tier, I wouldn't say that they're up to par with monsters like cresselia in terms of utility, charizard in terms of weather control and power and kangaskhan in terms of effective mindgames and damage. I know that all of the doubles tier leaders are fan boys for heatran but seriously it isn't that good.

Gardevoir should be B tier, it's lost a lot of its effectiveness now that more pokemon have been introduced.

Azumarill to A tier, that thing does so much damage it's insane

Lucario should be in B tier at least for sure, adaptability does stupid damage and with support the thing is crazy good
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 417-491 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
like seriously though
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 432-512 (115.5 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
like honestly

how is this not a tier

Azumarill deserves the A rank, I agree. It is very powerful, really effective dual STAB, beats down most of the meta, more than bulky enough, etc.
Lucario's niches over Kangaskhan are Bullet Punch, steel typing and much more speed. Close Combat isn't as good as Double Edge, but you're right that it deserves B rank.

Tyranitar I feel would be A rank if it didn't have the ability to run vest, scarf, band, chople AND mega. It is crazy versatile and fits on most teams.
Similarly, Rotom-W gets electro web, pain split, WoW, Volt Switch, and loads of great attributes that give it more tools than given credit for.

There are actually a lot of matches that I play where Cresselia is dead weight(speed control against TR), but there is no match-up where I feel that way about Heatran. Even against Rain you can sub up on some things, mindgame the opponent and do fair dmg with earth power.

Edit: And by some things, I mean I have subbed on Politoed rain boosted Scald before to change the game iirc.
Also Aegislash for A Rank. And Deoxys-A is a nuke and switch mon imo, being forced out by Cress is nbd, but I guess that is my playstyle. I could see how people have a problem playing something with shedinja like bulk in that manner though

 

[termi]

I disagree with these two nominations. Rotom-W is one of the best check to some of Doubles's biggest threats, including Charizard Y, Sand Rush Excadrill, Landorus-T, Heatran, and Talonflame and has access to both Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, allowing it to choose between Halving the foe's attack or Speed. I still believe it is S-Rank.

Rhyperior is the perfect example of a High-Risk, High-Reward Pokemon. It has excellent attacking stats and two amazing STAB moves, but gets annihilated by Attacks such as Charizard-Y's Solar Beam and Politoed's Suf, while also getting countered by Landorus-T and to the lesser extent, Scarfty and Hitmontop. Its reliant on Trick Room to do much of anything, and even on Trick Room teams, I would much rather use Mega Mawile and Abomnasnow. I wouldn't mind Rhyperior going up, but as of now, I think it should remain where it is.

On another note, one thing that surprised me is Bisharp being C-Rank. I understand that the metagame has become much more harsh towards it, but STAB Sucker Punch is still a great revenge killing move, especially considering that Steel no longer resist Dark and Defiant is still a great ability against intimidate users. It also gets STAB Iron Head to defeat Fairy-types. I believe it is good enough to warrant a position in B-Rank.

Rotom-W is great at checking these Pokemon, but when it comes to raw bulk, I find it to be lacking. I'll just let it rest though, because aside from that I don't even have any great arguments as of now. I will come back on this after playing some more though.

As for Rhyperior, it's simply one of the best TR sweepers out there. I don't find the risk that high, because in reality, you will be using Rhyp while TR is up, meaning he can easily KO Zard before he gets to do a thing. Bulky waters are a little bit more of a problem, but alongside a Reuniclus or something, it can be taken care of (name a bulky water that can take one of Rhyp's STABs and another strong attack without succumbing). Rhyp requires heavy team support, but if support is provided, it's extremely hard to stop. Intimidaters are the biggest issue indeed, which is why I don't suggest A or anything.

On a side note, Rhyp can benefit from Assault Vest, if that's worth anything. That'll allow him to potentially tank even SE special hits if needed, which is pretty cool.

I'm torn on Bisharp: On one hand, he's crazy powerful (got annihilated by one carrying Knock Off today, which does insane damage (almost always OHKOs Garchomp at +2 ffs) and has got great tools to play with in Sucker Punch and Defiant; on the other hand, he really relies on Sucker Punch to do damage unless he's under Trick Room and is weak to a ton of common attacks. On top of that, Rotom-W can easily burn him if you're not careful and Rotom-W is really fuckin common.

 

[kingofmars]

If we're talking about sheer damage and utility, then landorus-t has all of those mons beat. Intimidate is a godly ability and it does stupidly good power

However it doesn't create team archtypes all to itself, it's juat a good pokemon. And Rotom-W and heatran are definitely also this. While you can argue for TTar being S tier due to sand stream, with sand only lasting for 5 turns it loses a lot of the threat and spamability it had last generation, which is why it should be A tier.

Also

It can run a Chople berry to Check Charizard Y,

Do people really run Focus Blast on Char Y? That's almost as bad as dragon pulse

Heatran and Rotom check the two most dominant types in Doubles: Steel and Fire.

Alright now I know you're full of shit

 

[iRenzo]

I think it should be made clear that the mega evolves of certain pokemon are the only viable version. This could cause alot of confusion with inexperienced players and lead to unnecessary and misguided posts.

I think Politoed should be moved to B tier. Poli is outclassed in bulk by suicune, offensively by Greninja and Starmie and can't ensure weather dominance even against non-weather teams. With Rotom-W and Charizard Y everywhere you need 2 separate checks just to make sure poli isn't continuously forced out so I wouldn't call the little team support. The only reason I don't think it's C is because Water is better than Fire.

 

[BlankZero]

Focus Blast on CharY is specifically for Heatran, who otherwise walls it hardcore. It does happen to hit TTar hard also, but with ScarfTar on the rise, CharY shouldn't be trying to sit in on Tar anyhow.

Idk if I agree with Heatran in S Rank. It's great, sure, but it still has all the weaknesses it had last Gen PLUS it no longer resists Ghost/Dark types, making it susceptible to things like LOLGengar. Its resistances is what kept the Sub set so viable, but now, it's losing ground.

Rotom-W is low tier S Rank at best. WoW/TWave is great, but it on;y gets 4 moves, and a lot of folks are trying out Assault Vest on it too, making it all offense. The only reason it has seen a spike in usage compared to last gen is the rise of Charizard, who gets stomped by it.

TTar is still S Rank. Sure it lost Sand's power, but that's not what made it S rank to begin with. Its versatility in sets, coupled with its power and splashability onto just about any team that wasn't running Sun or Rain (lolHail) is what made it S Rank in gen 5, and it still retains ALL of that versatility today. The fact is that until it reveals itself as ScarfTar, or your team is obviously Trick Room, you won't know the set, which is a big part of its viability.

Dragonite > C Rank. I don't care how many of you are getting your rocks off over Sky Drop, it doesn't make this guy any more viable in Doubles than it was last Gen. Just because SR is uncommon in Doubles doesn't make this guy suddenly better than he was, and even less so with Fairy Types being added.

Volcarona needs a boost to B Rank at least. I'd say A Rank, but with as many Talonflames and Rotom-Ws running around, it can't quite hold out as long, and Heatran kind of gets the Heat Wave spam niche down a bit better, but it still has Rage Powder, a good typing, and the best setup move in the game (unless you count Geomancy), plus Spread STAB and great coverage.

I'll add more later.

 

[youngjake93]

"Reserved for the top threats in the Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support."

Free turns, can take care of its flaws on its own, clear openings, top threat, multi roles.

WoW/Electroweb Rotom W can take care of its faults(meh speed/decent bulk), create free turns by disrupting the opponent, clear opening with very usable 105 hydro pump. And it has several sets to choose from.

Cresselia on the other hand, can't really utilize free turns and can be proned to give some away. It needs a lot of help to take care of its faults(no attacking presence). And the only thing it can do is support(it does get a lotttt of support tools though).

Landorus-T is a Pokemon that creates free turns, takes advantage of them and can remedy its weaknesses with a scarf at the cost of move switching.

I could see two possibilities. Moving up Landorus-T or moving down(leave just kanga, char and maybee tran) most of the S tier depending on how hard people decide it is to get in.

Edit: Dragonite's biggest niches are bulk, typing and E Speed Blank. It isn't about getting off to Sky Drop and I've run pretty good sets w/o sky drop at all. It is one of the most solid answers to CharY and Talonflame which are completely new to the meta

 

[Lolk]

okey we have plenty of noms to discuss so i am locking all nominations until these are discussed.

We have got some good discussion going on :) so let's finalize all thoughts on the following potential shifts.

Amoonguss dropping from A to B

Aegislash rising from B to A

Gengar rising from B to A

Rotom-W dropping from S to A

Adding Reuniclus to B

Dusclops rising from C to B

Rhyperior rising from C to B

Slowbro dropping from B to C

Bisharp rising from C to B

Heatran dropping from S to A

Volcarona rising from B to A

Yea it's a lot so I will allow two days for everyone to post their final thoughts.

 

[BlankZero]

Edit: Dragonite's biggest niches are bulk, typing and E Speed Blank. It isn't about getting off to Sky Drop and I've run pretty good sets w/o sky drop at all. It is one of the most solid answers to CharY and Talonflame which are completely new to the meta

What in the world can DNite do to TFlame and CharY? Yes it gets rocks, but TFlame is tons faster and gets WoW (it will live it, trust me) which will break Multiscale forever. It also doesn't have THAT much bulk after MS is broken, so idk why it's even in B Rank this gen.

Can anyone tell me what it does after from have Priority (DeoA does it better), have an easily busted Multiscale (sand/status/Fake Out/etc), and isn't the best typing anymore?

 

[kingofmars]

Amoonguss dropping from A to B -With sleep clause in place think its fine

Aegislash rising from B to A - I think its pretty much a B tier mon, hard to do any damage without set up

Gengar rising from B to A - One of the Weaker Megas, I'm against it

Rotom-W dropping from S to A - Yes

Adding Reuniclus to B - I'm all for it, underrated mon

Dusclops rising from C to B - It's a really bad trick room user only used by OMG EVIOLITE BULK newer players, better keep it in C

Rhyperior rising from C to B -Not sure if its that good of an option when there are so many other better physical tr sweepers

Slowbro dropping from B to C -Outclassed by other things

Bisharp rising from C to B - Good mon, B is for Bisharp

Heatran dropping from S to A -Yes, pwnemon youngjake and anyone else who thinks that heatran is good sux

Volcarona rising from C to B - Sexymoth is nice and underrated

BUT WHAT ABOUT LUCARIO THO

 

[Deoxymoron]

okey we have plenty of noms to discuss so i am locking all nominations until these are discussed.

We have got some good discussion going on :) so let's finalize all thoughts on the following potential shifts.

I'll respond to these changes piece by piece.

Amoonguss dropping from A to B

I don't know about this one. The big nerf to Spore and Rage Powder definitely sucks, but its typing and bulk are as good as ever. Still, that combined with the fact that so many new mons can just power through it means I could go either way.

Aegislash rising from B to A

I disagree with this one. I understand that Aegislash is hella strong and hella bulky, but it has four weaknesses including Fire and Ground, and can easily get double-targeted. It's weak to intimidate, weak to burn (especially since it isn't blocked by King's Shield) and has to play predictably to avoid getting crushed by everything in Blade Form.

Gengar rising from B to A

I agree with this. Perish-trapping is dumb, but otherwise the mega is pretty great. Not allowing your opponent to switch while simultaneously being able to force offensive pressure rocks. Not to mention that it can also work fine without a mega-evo, which means that your opponent can't safely spam Earthquake and know that it'll land a hit.

Rotom-W dropping from S to A

No no no no NO! (Mama mia mama mia mama mia let me go)
Rotom-W is amazing in this meta. Its standard ChestoRest set takes care of tons of offensive threats, from Heatran to Tyranitar to Garchomp to Metagross. Burn is really, really good, and its two STABs hit a lot of things super-effectively. I cannot think of a single reason to drop this guy down. There is no way he pulls his weight less than Cresselia.

Adding Reuniclus to B

Magic Guard is a great ability, trick room is fun, etc. I see very little reason to use it over Cresselia, but if you really want more offensive presence it's fine. B rank is good.

Dusclops rising from C to B

No. Sorry Dusclops, but you don't really do jack shit and you're painfully outclassed by Cress. At least Reuniclus can do something by itself, you just sit around and soaking hits. It can't run anything but Eviolite, its HP is laughably pathetic, and once Trick Room is up it's a waste of a teamslot.

Rhyperior rising from C to B

Yes. Rhyperior does great in TR, and benefits from both Assault Vest and Weakness Policy, especially in sand. Great bulky attacker.

Slowbro dropping from B to C

Don't have much experience with it, but I feel like it doesn't have much of a niche over Slowking. C rank is fine.

Bisharp rising from C to B

Yes. People underestimate Bisharp, but it's pretty devastating at +2 especially since it actually appreciates Intimidate.

Heatran dropping from S to A

Hmm. This is a tricky one because my experience with Heatran is that it's very difficult to deal with, particularly SubTran. However, more counters seem to come out every day, and without a sub it can get outsped and KO'd both in and out of Trick Room. It's still a great mon, and loves having a more viable sun setter, so I'm going to say I could go either way.

Volcarona rising from B to A

Yes. It's outclassed pretty hard by Mega Charizard Y right now IMO. It does have better typing and Quiver Dance, but MegaZard Y pretty much already comes with a SpA boost and has more coverage options. It's still as good as ever, but I think outclassed is a good enough reason for it to stay B rank.

 

[Stratos]

all right shits happening up in here

Aegislash:
full opposition. When I first looked at Aegislash, my thought was "HOLY SHIT, COOL." I mean, it had 150 SpA and then base 150 defenses when I didn't need it. A life orb set with Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon did like 75+% to cress, aromatisse, dusclops, slowking... you did not set TR on this nikka. But every time I tried to use him, I felt like he just wasn't bulky enough. Rarely did I get off more than an attack before dying, and though when I did attack it was usually to the tune of like 70%, he was less of a team player than I thought he would be. Maybe I was just using the wrong set... but I've never been particularly impressed by opposing aegi either (of course theyre mostly SD, fuck the ladder rofl)

Dragonite:
this mon is legitimately a piece of shit, why do people run it? When it comes to a bulky set it's basically 100% outclassed by fatmence thanks to Intimidate and a higher base Speed. Sky Drop is an "interesting" move but after trying it some more i am willing to sign it off as more gimmicky than shit Zach uses. Please D rank.

Amoonguss:
I support this. Amoonguss is still a great Pokemon due to its ability to redirect some things, but with sleep clause in place it just screams setup opportunity for Charizard-Y and Heatran. This makes it really hard to comfortably use as I'd like to; once we unban sleep clause then Amoonguss can go back where it belongs with the big boys =)

Rhyperior:
Keep C. For one, it's entirely dependent on someone else setting up Trick Room, which is never a good sign. Then it's weak to Will-o-Wisp and Intimidate, both of which turn it into a very non-threatening Pokemon. It can still do damage this gen I guess, but in my personal experience, it never has.

Dusclops:
rofl. This isn't even close to a threatening Pokemon; all it can do is team support, and while Taunt bait matters less this gen since less things run taunt since oblivious buff, Dusclops is still absolute shit. It struggles to ever outdamage in a 1v1 situation, and I'd much rather Mew or Cress for team support, due to their being a little more unpredictable.

Reuniclus:
With everyone talking about the taunt nerf, Spore is becoming the fave way to beat TR setters. Hello, Reuniclus gets overcoat. Spore/sleep Powder immunity makes it one of the most reliable TR setters this gen, and though it misses the recoil-free Life Orb if it does choose to run overcoat, that just serves to make it even harder to play around, since it has two equally good abilities. It beats a lot of common anti-TR mons like Amoonguss, Breloom, and Venusaur in a 1v1 situation. B rank is a good spot for it.

Heatran:
Yes, every team needs something that can hard wall tran. Doesn't that just testify to its effectiveness? Tran is literally the jesus of capitalizing on free turns; it only needs one in order to become an incredibly effective chip damage spreader. As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason to drop it from S.

 

[youngjake93]

Salamence doesn't get Thunderwave, Extreme Speed(134 attack e speed from something bulky with resists, hello), or Multiscale Roost combo and has less sDef. The last one is important because this:

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 86-101 (22.2 - 26.1%) -- 11.1% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 181-214 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 121-143 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The thing that freaking OHKOs most of the entire tier leaves you with >75% hp.

Also, +2 50% on a thing that usually suicides with +1 BB is sweet. WoW Roost sets just aren't even threatening, so I don't care about them.
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 130-154 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO

Other things
Weaknes Policy Shadow Ball Aegislash is beast mode, and it gets wide guard now for fire and ground spread weakness.

 

[Pocket]

Heatran just curbstomps so many threats in Doubles. Let's not forget Charizard Y and it's super hot Heat Wave, which Heatran just soaks up like nothing. Other Pokemon that Heatran eats for breakfast - Genesect, Scizor, Amoonguss, Togekiss, Cresselia, Jirachi, Mawile, Talonflame, Trevenant, Abomasnow, Latios, Venusaur, Ferrothorn. Heatran just brings a lot of advantages to the team, and it only takes minimal / standard support to overcome its few weaknesses. I'm not a fanboy of Heatran - I just know a predominant force when I see one n_n

I am leaning towards S on Rotom-W. It's one of the few Electric-types with an alternative powerful coverage move in STAB Hydro Pump. The Hidden Power nerf did not hurt Rotom-W nearly as much as other Electric-types like Thundurus. Levitate is a godsend ability that allows Rotom-W to check some prevalent Ground-types, especially Landorus-T. Rotom-W also threatens other top threats like Garchomp, Sand Rush Excadrill, Tyranitar, Heatran, Talonflame, Gyarados, Togekiss, Tornadus, Jirachi, Metagross, and Keldeo. Rotom-W only struggles against Grass- and Dragon-types (and Gastrodon if no HP Grass), which are not all that hard to cover with team support. Rotom-W's movepool is not diverse, but is self-sufficient, getting the job done well. Rotom-W's bulk is also not super extraordinary like Cresselia, but it still has the typing, bulk, and power to threaten all the prominent threats of XY Doubles. Just like Heatran, Rotom-W is easily splashable on virtually any team just because of all the good qualities it possesses. I have to admit, it does not enjoy the rising usage of Sun and Venusaur, though.

 

[Ultimathunder]

Nominating Rotom-C for B rank. I find it strange that it is ranked below Rotom-H

Thought I admit Rotom-C does not like the popularity of sun, it is one of the best stops to pretty much every single water type in the whole tier, especially, the annoying Rotom-W. It has the same decent bulk as rotom-W, the useful Will-O-Wisp, and a nice pivot move in volt switch. It plays much like Rotom-W, but stops different pokemon, such as Rotom-W itself.

And as for the talk about moving Rotom-W down to A rank, I am completely against it. Rotom-W is possibly the easiest Pokemon to fit onto a team out of all Pokemon, and has a great STAB combo, bulk, and movepool. While it's stats are not the best, it's other attributes more than make it one of the best pokemon in the metagame.

 

[BlankZero]

Jake brought up an interesting point.

Aegislash picks up Wide Guard as an Egg move now. Fuck your Heat Wave. Fuck your Quakes. It can even use it with Kings Shield and Ghost/Fighting coverage instead of a boosting move, thanks to having 150 SpAtk too, forgoing the need for SD and saying lol to all the Intimidate spam.

 

[Laga]

You do realise that no one ever did use SD on Aegislash, right?

I just want to say that I agree with everything on that list except the drops from S rank. I believe Rotom-W and Heatran both have amazing traits that do warrant a place in S rank. They both have ridiculously amazing defensive typings, as well as a great movepool to supplement it. They both never let you down (unless someone uses hp ground genesect vs your heatran, then it lets you down)

 

[Magcargo]

Amoonguss dropping from A to B I agree with this. With the nerfs to Spore and Rage Powder, Amoongus lost its main draw over its competition Togekiss. It also loses to several dangerous threats in the upper tiers, including Charizard Y and Heatran. That being said, I thing that amoongus should go back to A-Rank once Sleep clause is unbanned.

Aegislash rising from B to A I agree. The new addition of Wide Guard allows this thing to essentially cure its on of its biggest weakness. My previous post gives a bit more insight on why I thing it should be A-Rank.

Gengar rising from B to A Thanks to its amazing Special Attack stat, Mega Gengar can OHKO nearly every Trick Room setter with a Modest nature. The improvements made to ghost types increase its effectiveness even further. That being said, I'm unsure whether it should be A Rank due to its average defenses and weakness to priority, while also taking up a mega slot.

Rotom-W dropping from S to A I disagree.

Adding Reuniclus to B I haven't used nor seen this much, but being a TR setter immune to Spore and Sleep Powder is incredibly useful in the metagame. Alternatively, Reuniclus could also use Magic Guard with Life Orb to pack a large amount of offensive presence while also being immune to the passive damage of Sand Storm, Hail, and will-o-wsip. Reuniclus does lose to some of the better counters to Trick Room Teams, such as Mega Gengar, Scizor, and Tyranitar, making it seem like a B-Rank Pokemon on Paper.

Dusclops rising from C to B I haven't used Dusclops, but it seems like a C-Tier Pokemon due to its lackluster offensive presence and versatality compared to higher tiered support Pokemon. I wouldn't mid it being B-Rank though.

Rhyperior rising from C to B I disagree.

Slowbro dropping from B to C This thing is completely outclassed by Slowking, who barely makes it into B-Rank. 3 out of the 6 S-Rank Pokemon carry a Super effective attack against it and both Mega Kangaskhan and Cresselia just don't care what it does. It also loses to a huge amount of A-Tier mons, including Genesect, Scizor, Thundurus, and Abomnasnow. Even though Slowking has this flaw as well, Intimidate users can at least make up for its lackluster defense, making its increased Special Defense more useful in the long run.

Bisharp rising from C to B I agree.

Heatran dropping from S to A Pocket and Pwnemon pretty much explained why it should be S-Rank.

Volcarona rising from B to A I disagree with this. Charizard Y outclasses Volcarona in most situations thanks to Drought, its greater offensive presence, greater movepool, and arguably better typing. Volcarona does have several interesting traits over Charizard Y, namely Quiver Dance, Rage Powder, and Bug Buzz, making it a solid B-Rank Pokemon

 

[BlankZero]

You do realise that no one ever did use SD on Aegislash, right?

I just want to say that I agree with everything on that list except the drops from S rank. I believe Rotom-W and Heatran both have amazing traits that do warrant a place in S rank. They both have ridiculously amazing defensive typings, as well as a great movepool to supplement it. They both never let you down (unless someone uses hp ground genesect vs your heatran, then it lets you down)

I used SD Slash in prebank. I even RMT'd it after I won Minitour 7. Anyways...

Heatran is great and is S Rank, I don't think Rotom is though. That might just be my opinion, but I feel getting hard walled by Gastrodon 99% of the time (will almost always run HP Ice before Grass) is a bit of a stopping point. None of the other S Rank mons (bar TTar, but it's S Rank for other reasons) get so stomped on in this way by any one mon.