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Middle Cup

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Middle Cup
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Middle Cup is a super cool, super fun metagame that is based very closely off of the concept of Little Cup, only a little bit bigger! In Middle Cup, all Pokemon are set to level 50 and must have both a pre-evolution and an evolution (see: Combusken, Duosion, Chansey, and so on). For (too) many of these Pokemon, this metagame is their only chance to shine, which is one of the things that makes it so fun. Unfortunately, the new generation brought up only six new Middle Cup Pokemon, capping our total at 84 potential Pokemon in the tier, but when you consider how many viable Pokemon there are in other tiers, 84, most of which are viable, isn't such a bad number.

To keep things fun and interesting, this gen we'll start out with Eviolite banned. The tier can get very stally with Pokemon such as Rhydon, Porygon2, Dusclops, Doublade, and more that all already have monstrous defenses, so a lack of Eviolite should be able to keep things fun and offensive without making stall and bulkier teams totally unviable. This was decision was mostly based off of Arcticblast's hate for Middle Cup with Eviolite, so if it turns out that the meta is better off with it, we can free it later.

Use this thread for whatever you want! You can discuss the nature of the metagame, new threats introduced this generation, old Pokemon that are better with the new changes, cool cores, whatever you want. This thread is your oyster.

Games can be played on any server; just remember to set your Pokemon to level 50!

I might be arranging some minitours on #othermetas and in this thread if interests are sparked, so if you think this meta could be fun and cool, I thoroughly encourage you to post. This meta has a ton of potential to be really, really fun, but it will only truly succeed if the playerbase allows it to. With that said, have fun!
 
This is cool! I'm expecting a lot of the Pokemon you used in the OP to be dominant — Porygon-2, Dusclops, Gabite, Haunter, etc. I also think Fletchinder has a lot of potential.
 
Calling Gurdurr/Haunter/Zweilous core.

Gurdurr handles P2/Chansey, Haunter handles Dusclops, and Zweilous explodes things.
 
Frogadier is hype as shit - Protean is a really great ability, and it's speed tier lets it outspeed Haunter and Kadabra all the time with only 244 Speed EVs and a Timid Nature. It also has a neat movepool with U-Turn, Taunt, (Toxic) Spikes, and some neat coverage with Dark Pulse, Hydro Pump or Surf, and Ice Beam. Thanks to Protean, it gets STAB on any move it uses. Dark Pulse should be on all the sets imo, as it speed tier lets it outspeed Kadabra and Haunter, allowing it to nail them with a Dark Pulse. Hit special attack isn't anything outstanding (I think? 83 doesn't seem that high) but STAB on everything helps it out a lot.
 
One new pokemon I'm excited for is this guy:
frogadier.png

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty/Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn / HP Fire

He plays the exact same role that Greninja does in OU as a fast special attacker backed by Protean.

A few of the other new mid-evolutions look interesting, especially Doublade and Sliggoo. They're really bulky on the physical and special sides respectively. One I was disappointed about was Fletchinder, as it has the Fire/Flying typing, but it doesn't even get Flare Blitz or Brave Bird to take advantage of it.
 
List of legal middle mons by BST

515 Porygon2 (NRM)
495 Magmar (FIR)
490 Electabuzz (ELC)
485 Rhydon (GRD/RCK)
465 Magneton (ELC/STL)
455 Dusclops (GHO)
455 Golbat (PSN/FLY)
452 Sliggoo (DRG)
450 Chansey (NRM)
450 Piloswine (ICE/GRD)
448 Doublade (STL/GHO)
440 Klang (STL)
440 Seadra (WTR)
440 Vigoroth (NRM)
430 Lairon (STL/RCK)
420 Dragonair (DRG)
420 Metang (STL/PSY)
420 Shelgon (DRG)
420 Zweilous (DRK/DRG)
418 Pignite (FIR/FTG)
413 Dewott (WTR)
413 Servine (GRS)
410 Fraxure (DRG)
410 Gabite (DRG/GRD)
410 Pupitar (RCK/GRD)
410 Sealeo (ICE/WTR)
409 Braixen (FIR)
405 Bayleef (GRS)
405 Charmeleon (FIR)
405 Croconaw (WTR)
405 Eelektrik (ELC)
405 Combusken (FIR/FTG)
405 Frogadier (WTR)
405 Grotle (GRS)
405 Grovyle (GRS)
405 Gurdurr (FTG)
405 Haunter (GHO/PSN)
405 Ivysaur (GRS/PSN)
405 Machoke (FTG)
405 Marshtomp (WTR/GRD)
405 Monferno (FIR/FTG)
405 Prinplup (WTR)
405 Quilava (FIR)
405 Quilladin (GRS)
405 Togetic (FRY/FLY)
405 Wartortle (WTR)
400 Kadabra (PSY)
400 Roselia (GRS/PSN)
395 Gloom (GRS/PSN)
395 Poliwhirl (WTR)
395 Vanillish (ICE)
390 Boldore (RCK)
390 Gothorita (PSY)
390 Graveler (RCK/GRD)
390 Weepinbell (GRS/PSN)
384 Palpitoad (WTR/GRD)
382 Fletchinder (FIR/FLY)
380 Swadloon (BUG/GRS)
371 Floette (FRY)
370 Duosion (PSY)
370 Herdier (NRM)
370 Lampent (GHO/FIR)
365 Flaaffy (ELC)
365 Nidorina (PSN)
365 Nidorino (PSN)
363 Luxio (ELC)
360 Loudred (NRM)
360 Whirlipede (BUG/PSN)
358 Tranquill (NRM/FLY)
351 Krokorok (GRD/DRK)
349 Pidgeotto (NRM/FLY)
340 Lombre (WTR/GRS)
340 Nuzleaf (GRS/DRK)
340 Skiploom (GRS/FLY)
340 Staravia (NRM/FLY)
340 Vibrava (GRD/DRG)
323 Clefairy (FRY)
320 Pikachu (ELC)
278 Kirlia (PSY/FRY)
270 Jigglypuff (NRM/FRY)
250 Marill (WTR/FRY)
213 Spewpa (BUG)
205 Cascoon (BUG)
205 Kakuna (BUG/PSN)
205 Metapod (BUG)
205 Silcoon (BUG)
 
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Pikachu seems like a strong threat. Its light ball-boosted Volt Tackle hits harder than Life-orb Tyranitar's Stone Edge. The damage calcs are against a normal 100/100/100 defenses custom.
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 250-295 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It will have extremespeed once pokebank comes out, too.

Also, is it allowed to use pokemon that have no pre-evolution but can evolve (like Riolu, Cottonee, Aron, etc.)?
 
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List of Middle Mons by HP
250 Chansey
115 Jigglypuff
105 Rhydon
100 Piloswine
90 Sealeo
Pignite
85 Porygon2
Gurdurr
84 Loudred
80 Machoke
Vigoroth
75 Golbat
Grotle
Dewott
72 Zweilous
70 Clefairy
Marill
Nidorina
Flaafy
Pupitar
Marshtomp
Nuzleaf
Boldore
68 Gabite
Sliggoo
66 Fraxure
65 Poliwhirl
Weepinbell
Magmar
Electabuzz
Shelgon
Herdier
Duosion
Eelektrik
64 Monferno
Prinplup
63 Pidgeotto
62 Tranquil
Fletchinder
61 Nidorina
Dragonair
Quilladin
60 Ivysaur
Gloom
Bayleef
Combusken
Lombre
Lairon
Metang
Luxio
Servine
Watchog
Krokorok
Klang
Gothorita
Lampent
59 Wartortle
Braixen
Doublade
58 Charmeleon
Quilava
55 Graveler
Seadra
Togetic
Skiploom
Staravia
Swadloon
54 Frogadier
Floette
51 Vanillish
50 Metapod
Magcargo
Grovyle
Silcoon
Cascoon
Roselia
Vibrava
45 Kakuna
Haunter
Spewpa
40 Kadabra
Dusclops
Whirlipede
38 Kirlia
 
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Rhydon is a baller.
+6 252 Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Solid Rock Rhydon: 361-427 (87.1 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
That quick calc says all I want to say and more about how much of a baller Rhydon is.

Premier physical wall, I can see it forming an infuriating core with P2 and Chansey which provides insane wish support. It can support the team with Rocks, hit hard with EdgeQuake and a hefty Attack stat or even run double dance and sweep teams.

On an unrelated note, run Knock Off somewhere or you're a chump.
 
Here is a list of all legal pokemon, sorted by generation, with their base stats and bst included.
Pokemon Name HP Atk Def SpA SpD Spe BST
Gen One:
Ivysaur 60 62 63 80 80 60 405
Charmeleon 58 64 58 80 65 80 405
Warturtle 59 63 80 65 80 58 405
Metapod 50 20 55 25 25 30 205
Kakuna 45 25 50 25 25 35 205
Pidgeotto 63 60 55 50 50 71 349
Pikachu 35 55 40 50 50 90 320
Nidorina 70 62 67 55 55 56 365
Nidorino 61 72 57 55 55 65 365
Clefairy 70 45 48 60 65 35 323
Jigglypuff 115 45 20 45 25 20 270
Golbat 75 80 70 65 75 90 455
Gloom 60 65 70 85 75 40 395
Poliwhirl 65 65 65 50 50 90 385
Kadabra 40 35 30 120 70 105 400
Machoke 80 100 70 50 60 45 405
Weepinbell 65 90 50 85 45 55 390
Graveler 55 95 115 45 45 35 390
Magneton 50 60 95 120 70 70 465
Haunter 45 50 45 115 55 95 405
Rhydon 105 130 120 45 45 40 485
Chansey 250 5 5 35 105 50 450
Seadra 55 65 95 95 45 85 440
Electabuzz 65 83 57 95 85 105 490
Magmar 65 95 57 100 85 93 495
Dragonair 61 84 65 70 70 70 420

Gen Two:
Bayleef 60 62 80 63 80 60 405
Quilava 58 64 58 80 65 80 405
Croconaw 56 80 80 59 63 58 405
Togtic 55 40 85 80 105 40 405
Flaaffy 70 55 55 80 60 45 365
Marill 70 20 50 20 50 40 250
Skiploom 75 55 70 55 95 110 460
Piloswine 100 100 80 60 60 50 450
Porygon2 85 80 90 105 95 60 515
Pupitar 70 84 70 65 70 51 410

Gen Three:
Grovyle 50 65 45 85 65 95 405
Cobusken 60 85 60 85 60 55 405
Marshtomp 70 85 70 60 70 50 405
Silcoon 50 35 55 25 25 15 205
Cascoon 50 35 55 25 25 15 205
Lombre 60 50 50 60 70 50 340
Nuzleaf 70 70 40 60 40 60 340
Kirlia 38 35 35 65 55 50 278
Vigoroth 80 80 80 55 55 90 440
Loudred 84 71 43 71 43 48 360
Lairon 60 90 140 50 50 40 430
Roselia 50 60 45 100 80 65 400
Vibrava 50 70 50 50 50 70 340
Dusclops 40 70 130 60 130 25 455
Sealeo 90 60 70 75 70 45 410
Shelgon 65 95 100 60 50 50 420
Metang 60 75 100 55 80 50 420

Gen Four:
Grotle 75 89 85 55 65 36 405
Monferno 64 78 52 78 52 81 405
Prinplup 64 66 68 81 76 50 405
Staravia 55 75 50 40 40 80 340
Luxio 60 85 49 60 49 60 363
Gabite 68 90 65 50 55 82 410

Gen Five:
Servine 60 60 75 60 75 83 413
Pignite 90 93 55 70 55 55 418
Dewott 75 75 60 83 60 60 413
Herdier 65 80 65 35 65 60 370
Tranquil 62 77 62 50 42 65 358
Boldore 70 105 105 50 40 20 390
Gurdurr 85 105 85 40 50 40 405
Palpitoad 75 65 55 65 55 69 384
Swadloon 55 63 90 50 80 42 380
Whirlipede 40 55 99 40 79 47 360
Krokorok 60 82 45 45 45 74 351
Gothorita 60 45 70 75 85 55 390
Duosion 65 40 50 125 60 30 370
Vanillish 51 65 65 80 75 59 395
Klang 60 80 95 70 85 50 440
Elektrik 65 85 70 75 70 40 405
Lampent 60 40 60 95 60 55 370
Zweilous 72 85 70 65 70 58 420

Gen Six:
Quilladin 61 78 95 56 58 57 405
Braixen 59 59 58 90 70 73 409
Frogadier 54 63 52 83 56 97 405
Fletchinder 62 73 55 56 52 84 382
Spewpa 45 22 60 27 30 29 213
Floette 54 45 47 75 98 52 371
Doublade 59 110 150 45 49 35 448
Sliggoo 68 75 53 83 113 60 452
 
One pokemon that will destroy you all:

Meet Loudred:
Base Stats: 84/71/43/71/43/48
71 Base Special Attack + STAB Boomburst. What more is there to be said?
In case that wasn't good enough, it gets scrappy. So Boomburst can now decimate ghost types too.
In addition, it has a surprisingly effective offensive movepool, with options like Ice Beam and Fire Blast, as well as interesting options like Hammer Arm or Circle Throw to hit both Porygon and Chansey with (plus these also work with Scrappy). It also gets some other assorted options that could be useful, like Earthquake, Work Up, Taunt, and Shadow Ball.

Generally, I'd run something that Spams Boomburst (Specs or Scarf seems the best route) with the occasional fire blast, ice beam, or hammer arm for coverage. Specs has raw power (don't have calcs, but with Boomburst it should be able to beat down most of the tier) and scarf is surprisingly fast, outspeeding even positive natured base 90\5s (hits 321 speed with 252 EVs, jolly/timid/hasty/naive nature, and scarf); positive base 95's hit only 317 speed maxed out. Unfortunately, it still loses to a few threats, like Kadabra, but the ability to outspeed timid Haunter or Frogadier will definitely help Loudred get revenge kills.
 
XY actually introduced 8 legal pokemon (Quilladin, Braixen, Frogadier, Fletchinder, Spewpa, Floette, Doublade, and Sliggoo).

Also, are pokemon allowed to be below level 50?
 
Having played a bit of this during early BW, I can attest to this being a fun metagame. However, I'm rather disappointed we only managed to scrape eight new toys to play with out of Generation VI. There's been quite a few changes during the generational crossover. Here's my take on a few of those changes:

A lot of the "balance issues" in BWMC came in the form of hazards being very powerful, as the only Spinner, Wartortle, was and is garbage. This generation took very subtle steps to fix that (albeit inadvertently), and despite giving us rather effectual Spikers in Frogadier and Quilladin, Defog was gifted a major buff, and can now remove all hazards. However, the short end of that stick is that Middle Cup currently has access to only two Defog users; Golbat and Pidgeotto. Obviously, one of these Pokemon is trash, and the other is arguably one of the best Pokemon available to Middle Cup. Once Pokebank becomes a thing however, we do gain a few more Defog users; Togetic, Nuzleaf, Vibrava, Prinplup, and Staravia. The most notable Pokemon on that list is Togetic.

Togetic also enters Generation VI with a huge buff, being that it lost its Normal typing and gained Fairy typing. It is now arguably the best answer to threats such as Gurdurr, Machoke and Zweilous, all of which were mid-to-big-name threats last generation. Togetic retains is ability to safely check Grass- and Bug-type Pokemon, such as Roselia or Whirlipede, but it must watch out for their secondary Poison-typing. Togetic is arguably the headline of all eight available Fairy-type Pokemon in MC.

Whirlipede's a Pokemon I'd also like to mention, seeing that it now has access to Speed Boost. Whirlipede was a very effective Pokemon last generation at tanking hits and laying Toxic Spikes (even though Roselia was arguably better). It still doesn't get any effective way of boosting its attack outside of being the tail of a baton pass chain. It's also temporarity lost access to Endeavor, which was one of the moves it had going for it last generation due to its shallow offensive movepool. Thoughts on Whirlipede.

Magneton, Lairon, Metang, and Klang really got shafted this generation with both the changes to the Steel-typing and the arrival of Doublade, which is most likely going to take over a bunch of niches, specifically those of Dragon-type check and bulky Ghost. Of the bunch, Doublade and Metang will suffer the most in terms of losing resistances. I figure that Doublade may even manage to push Dusclops out of the way as a bulky Ghost as it is immune to both Toxic and Toxic Spikes, and has actual offensive merit.

Honestly, I'm glad we're starting with Eviolite banned, that shit was absolutely awful back in Generation V, which probably led to hazards being so powerful last generation. Hopefully we can soon come to learn that Combusken should be the next to go, or at least be suspected.
 
This is a brilliant idea! ♥

I'm predicting a lot of Speed Boost Combusken, Doublade, Magneton, Haunter, Chansey, and Kadabra.

Edit: After reading a lot of the comments, most of the mons I thought of were already mentioned and actually touched on quite extensively lol
 
I've been playing some of this tier and I really, really enjoy it. Most mons in the tier are very usable, I don't see a lot of obviously broken stuff (sans maybe Combusken. That thing is a piece of work.), and a multitude of playstyles are viable and interesting.

I've been using a Trick Room team for a minute now, and the slow tendency of the meta really caters towards it, since the abusers can still act efficiently outside of Trick Room. Suicide Lead Kirlia has access to Trick Room, Destiny Bond (Memento is better, but it's plausible to use the former, or both depending.), Taunt, and Will-O-Wisp, making it an extremely annoying TR lead if the opponent doesn't know what Kirlia does (I mean why would he/she know? Kirlia is absolute trash lol.) I've done a lot of Crocanaw (actually, the SD + Sitrus set that the poster above was using resembles mine, but I used Dragon Dance > SD.) and Kadabra, that latter being a great answer to Combusken since one mon dying to kill that damn bird is better than half of your team.

Lampent is also surprisingly good, imo. Fire / Ghost is great STAB and it has access to Memento as well, making it fairly good in TR.

I was using Belly Drum + Sitrus Marill for the lulz but I actually found out that it was seriously effective. Not much stomachs a +6 Aqua Jet, and if you run max speed, you do stuff like outspeed and OHKO defensive Dusclops with Play Rough, which is nice.

The star of the underrated Middle Cup threats imo is Vigoroth. Vigoroth is a crazy good stallbreaker due to it's good natural base 80 Attack, fantastic base 90 Speed, Taunt, and Slack Off. It faces a lot of competition from Crobat, and the only thing it has as a pure Utility mon over it is Encore, but it's definitely a solid mon. Gets Bulk Up too, which allows it to possibly beat Golbat 1 on 1 with a set of Taunt / Bulk Up / Return / Slack Off.

Also fuck Game Freak and all that stupid stuff about Grotle not getting like, any of the moves that Torterra gets. I mean no EQ, really? :mad:
 
Mm, this looks like an intriguing cup. I wonder who thought this up. :O And I'm sure Golbat will still be a monster this gen. Metapod, not so much..~ :D I'd definitely dig this meta.
 
Seems like Marill could be pretty good considering combusken seems to be really popular and it has huge power.
 
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