Skymin Discussion Thread

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NEW NOTICE: Please do not make pointless posts about should it be put in Uber or OU. If you want to say something useful, please support with either examples or math. Other than that, this thread is completely friendly just for plain Sky-Shaymin facts and opinions. Keep it organized and on-topic.

NEW BREAKTHROUGH: Shaymin's MOVE TUTOR LIST (both forms) (Credit: Tortured_Soul)
Sky Shaymin: Mud Slap, Seed Bomb, Air Cutter, Ominous Wind, Snore, Synthesis, Last Resort, Swift, Zen Headbutt
Land Shaymin: Mud Slap, Seed Bomb, Endeavor, Earth Power, Snore, Synthesis, Last Resort, Swift, Zen Headbutt

* Omnious Wind: 20% Chance of increasing every stat.
* Zen Headbutt: 40% Chance of Flinching, viable physical attack... Blissey killer; can also hurt Regice a lot...
* Earth Power: Kills STEEL types, such as Heatran/Registeel and other non-Levitating Steels.
_________________________

Finally, Pokemon Platinum has came out in Japan, and is widely publicized all over the world by Pokemon fans... But getting to the topic: Shaymin Sky Forme...

Would this thing be another OU-friendly Pokemon? Or would it be UBER? Would it be OVERCENTRALIZING to OU?

First, here's the moveset:
Shaymin {Grass/Flying}
Ability: Serene Grace
HS - Growth
10 - Magical Leaf
19 - Leech Seed
28 - Quick Attack
37 - Sweet Scent
46 - Natural Gift
55 - Worry Seed
64 - Air Slash
73 - Energy Ball
82 - Sweet Kiss
91 - Leaf Storm
100 - Seed Flare

TM and HM list is the SAME as Land Forme from D/P.

BST: 600
HP 100 / Atk 103 / Def 75 / SpA 120 / SpD 75 / Spe 127

With that being said, let's see:

Pros:
It outspeeds Weavile, Darkrai, Gengar, and many of the sweepers, that's for sure. Learns Leaf Storm (inferior to Seed Flare) and Air Slash, two very strong new STAB moves that wasn't available to the Land Forme BL Shaymin. Serene Grace allows its 120 SpA, STAB Air Slash to do what Toge "Flinch" Kiss does, but better, with its insane speed and wonderful SpA. Since it's special-oriented, it can also use Hidden Powers very well. STAB Seed Flare now also has an 80% chance of dropping the foe's SpD two stages, with Psychic having 20% chance.

It's movepool would most likely be: Air Slash, HP Ice/Fire/Ground, Seed Flare, Psychic/Substitute... Assuming that it's not getting any new TM's for its new forme (notably Roost), other than maybe moves such as Fly, Pluck, Roost, etc.

Cons:
Lower defense than the original, 4x weak to Ice, so Ice Shard, especially, would be a huge problem to Shaymin. It can no longer abuse Rest-Switch-Wake to restore HP anymore since Sky Forme doesn't give Shaymin Nature Cure ability. It is still missing viable Physical attacks to take down Blisseys and Cresselias...

So this set... (Offensive)
Shaymin-S @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Timid: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Seed Flare
~ Air Slash
~ Earth Power
~ Hidden Power [Ice/Fire]

*Analysis: Pure out Special Attacker... Earth Power, learned from tutor as Land Forme, are for things like Heatran, Metagross or Registeel. Seed Flare for an 80% SpD drop of 2 stages, gaining basically a free Nasty Plot if the foe remains, or a free hit + Stealth Rock/Spikes damage to foe (if applies)... Psychic is filler if you want, but it does take Crobat/Gengar well, although Air Slash does the job too. Air Slash is for the 60% flinching rate as well as HIGH SpA STAB damage... HP Fire takes Skarmory/Bronzong well, especially after SPD drop while HP Ice takes countering Flying types and Dragons.

Now this... (Defensive)
Shaymin-S @ Leftovers / Yache Berry
Timid: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Air Slash
~ Seed Flare
~ Leech Seed

*Analysis: On the defensive end, once Substitute is set, Leech Seed to restore HP. Seed Flare to lower its SpD 2 stages, then Air Slash FLINCH it to death, regardless of what the other Pokemon... Leech Seed will also restore its Hit Points lost from Substitute. It's base HP is great, and the defenses are not super bad. Combined with Yache Berry, it can take Ice Shard and kill the opponent, especially having Donphan and Mamoswine both weak to Seed Flare. Would this mean that we'd see more Ice Shard Weaviles if it's in OU? Leftover is there if you want more HP recovery.
If this thing requires Regice/Registeel (or a few others) to counter, would that be OVERCENTRALIZING?

Now the big question: Would this thing fit into OU standard, or would it get banned, if not at first, eventually banned to Uber? Would THIS THING overcentralize the metagame in terms of counters such as HEATRAN, REGISTEEL, REGICE and BLISSEY? I'd think that every single team needs at least one special wall just to take this down...

POSSIBLE COUNTERS:
Zapdos
Crobat*^
Registeel+
Regice+
Dragonite*
Blissey
Bronzong

Italicized: Slightly less popular.
*: Cannot be flinched due to Inner Focus; 4x resist against GRASS.
+: Has Clear Body to prevent Stat Losses.
^: Faster than Sky Shaymin.

Feel free to discuss anything related to Skymin.

Jrrrrrrr's post stated much that I missed so I'll post it here as a quote:
jrrrrrrr said:
Yeah, with Serene Grace this thing is probably going to be moved up to Uber =\

An 80% chance of -2 SpDef for your opponent (read: a free Nasty Plot) with 180 Base Power is kind of....insane. Blissey comes in, SpDef down, Air Slash flinch, Air Slash flinch, AS KO. Life Orb and Specs SkyMin are going to be quite the threat, even in Ubers. Oh, and it keeps that great 100 base HP and has amazing immunity to Ground, and even better resistances to Fighting and Water.

"Faster than Darkrai" is probably the selling point for me. If it gets Roost as well then I don't see ANYBODY complaining about Uber placement.

This is also faster than all Heatran except for Timid Scarfers and I doubt it would care about using a moveslot for HP Ground. It doesn't need Psychic since LO Air Slash OHKOs Gengar after SR anyways.

Metagross' Clear Body makes it a decent counter, but it would need a LOT of SpDef and HP to do so effectively.

Off the top of my head, Zapdos is the only counter to Seed Flare/Air Slash/HP Ground @ Life Orb...and that still leaves room for one more move XD
Click to expand...
 
Wow, 80% sp.def drop from Seed Flare. How are you supposed to wall this thing? Did Game Freak even consider that when they made it?

Scarftran is going to become even more popular with it's 4x grass resistance, and the ability to OHKO this thing.
 
With an 80% chance of reducing SP defense 2 levels off a 120 BP STAB move and 120 SPA and 127 SPE, I don't think many special walls in OU can stand up to it.

EDIT: Skiddle beat me to it.
 
Yeah, with Serene Grace this thing is probably going to be moved up to Uber =\

An 80% chance of -2 SpDef for your opponent (read: a free Nasty Plot) with 180 Base Power is kind of....insane. Blissey comes in, SpDef down, Air Slash flinch, Air Slash flinch, AS KO. Life Orb and Specs SkyMin are going to be quite the threat, even in Ubers. Oh, and it keeps that great 100 base HP and has amazing immunity to Ground, and even better resistances to Fighting and Water.

"Faster than Darkrai" is probably the selling point for me. If it gets Roost as well then I don't see ANYBODY complaining about Uber placement.

This is also faster than all Heatran except for Timid Scarfers and I doubt it would care about using a moveslot for HP Ground. It doesn't need Psychic since LO Air Slash OHKOs Gengar after SR anyways.

Metagross' Clear Body makes it a decent counter, but it would need a LOT of SpDef and HP to do so effectively.

Off the top of my head, Zapdos is the only counter to Seed Flare/Air Slash/HP Ground @ Life Orb...and that still leaves room for one more move XD
 
I see the rising use of the registeel and regice, boasting high sp.def and an Ice move (ice punch for steel, ice beam for ice) and their ability to ignore stat drops. I also think that it will turn back to it's original form in wifi so CS won't be much of a problem.
 
Don't think it gets roost. Regardless if it does, no question this thing is going to be in ubers. Hell, Nintendo thought it was too broken for Wifi.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
Yeah, with Serene Grace this thing is probably going to be moved up to Uber =\

An 80% chance of -2 SpDef for your opponent (read: a free Nasty Plot) with 180 Base Power is kind of....insane. Blissey comes in, SpDef down, Air Slash flinch, Air Slash flinch, AS KO. Life Orb and Specs SkyMin are going to be quite the threat, even in Ubers. Oh, and it keeps that great 100 base HP and has amazing immunity to Ground, and even better resistances to Fighting and Water.

"Faster than Darkrai" is probably the selling point for me. If it gets Roost as well then I don't see ANYBODY complaining about Uber placement.

This is also faster than all Heatran except for Timid Scarfers and I doubt it would care about using a moveslot for HP Ground. It doesn't need Psychic since LO Air Slash OHKOs Gengar after SR anyways.
Click to expand...

I think we should just this first, I mean I know it kind of sounds ludacris but those paper defenses can make all the difference. Heatran, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Togekiss are basically it to this things counters and all are OU so you just need to have one counter, or if you're running an offensive team add CMJirachi or ScarfTimidTran
 
Specs Shaymin is also quite powerful, but with Serene Grace tomake Seed Flare even more ridiculous, I don't know how this thing is going to be stopped. I already speculated that it will likely be uber (to which Aldaron promptly responded with "lol") in the Smogon Shoddy main chat.

- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power Ground
- Air Slash
- Leaf Storm / Roost (assuming it learns it)

Hidden Power Ice is hardly necessary because Salamence is outsped and hates Air Slash, and Stealth Rocks + Seed Flare's SpD drop is death to Zapdos.

This thing will rip apart stall teams completely, especially if it will learn Roost to negate Stealth Rock/Life Orb/Sandstream recoil (like MixMence, eh?). Scarf Heatran is really the only thing I can see switching in to it safely. Even though "no counters" is not a proper argument, this is so insanely fast that it's difficult to revenge-kill with standard OU Pokemon. (Mamoswine, Weavile with Ice Shard, Yanmega, ScarfTran, ScarfGar work though).

Though I don't think we should be banning things two days before they are even available for use lol.
 
Sikh Assassin said:
I think we should just this first, I mean I know it kind of sounds ludacris but those paper defenses can make all the difference. Heatran, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Togekiss are basically it to this things counters and all are OU so you just need to have one counter, or if you're running an offensive team add CMJirachi or ScarfTimidTran
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that anything with 100 base HP has "paper defenses". Most pokemon would kill for 100/75/75 defenses, especially with its awesome resists. And you're also overlooking the most important defensive stat, its 127 base Speed. If it cant get hit, who cares how "weak" its defenses are?
 
There is a really solid counter:

Registeel @ Leftovers
Careful
CLEAR BODY
EVs: 252 HP / 6 DEF / 252 SPD
Iron Head
Earthquake
Curse
Thunder Wave / Rest / Amnesia

With that huge special defense, and without risks because of the special defense drop, it will set up with Curse, attack with Iron Head and Earthquake, and use the forth slot for support (Thunder Wave), durability (Rest) or wall (Amnesia).

The forgotten Regi is here to counter the new beast!
 
skiddle said:
Scarftran is going to become even more popular with it's 4x grass resistance, and the ability to OHKO this thing.
Click to expand...
Since Shaymin is no longer weak to Bug-type attacks, it's better if it runs HP Ground. A simple moveset to come up with is Substitute, Seed Flare, Air Slash, and HP Ground. Heatran would need to have a +Spe nature to be able to outspeed Shaymin. If that investment is made, it will lose some punch. And if Shaymin sets up a Substitute as Heatran switches in, then you'll only be able to break the Substitute.

The best thing to do would be to sacrifice something to allow Heatran to switch into it without Shaymin unprotected. But then you are looking at a Garchomp scenerio, where Shaymin can just switch out and come in again when it can repeat the same thing.

Registeel may be a decent counter since it has access to Ice Punch. A -2 drop in SpD may be troublesome, but seeing what else is out there, it seems like it would be one of the better options. It's difficult because not only can it severely drop your SpD, but it can also chain flinches until your opponent has enough HP for you to finish them off. That's where Blissey will be useless.

Only time will tell. It should be tested before we jump to conclusions.
 
Damn, i didnt even think about Registeel being able to counter Skymin, although you need Ice Punch to finish it off quickly, otherwise itll slay it faster with HP Ground

EDIT: Kevin, Clear Boddy prevents stat drops
 
Hidden Power Ice is hardly necessary because Salamence is outsped and hates Air Slash, and Stealth Rocks + Seed Flare's SpD drop is death to Zapdos.
Click to expand...

to be fair max max zapdos can survive an sdef drop after sr and kill with hp ice or even twave, and even then you've depleted half it's hp at worst.

and that's assuming it hits twice and sdef falls on the first one, which is 58% of the time (heh)

jirachi can throw a light screen in its face and para with zen headbutt. unstab hp ground is only scary to heatran really.


i def think we should test it =|
 
You can use Ice Punch, but Iron Head after a single Curse will hurt Shaymin anyway. I would call Registeel the "perfect" counter for Shaymin.
 
Registeel can just Thunder Wave it and it's pretty useless since it won't have Natural Cure. Though there's a lot of doubt as to whether or not it's actually possible to use the thing on wifi.

Registeel might also make a decent counter to OutrageMence, now that I think about it. Salamence's lack of SD and un-STAB Earthquake doesn't threaten it the same way Garchomp did, and again, Thunder Wave or Ice Punch both shut Salamence down.
 
Isn't blissey a counter to this thing? What can Shaymin really do to it, it will either get thunder waved or ice beamed. I don't see this thing being uber with Blissey around.
 
Trust said:
There is a really solid counter:

Registeel @ Leftovers
Careful
CLEAR BODY
EVs: 252 HP / 6 DEF / 252 SPD
Iron Head
Earthquake
Curse
Thunder Wave / Rest / Amnesia

With that huge special defense, and without risks because of the special defense drop, it will set up with Curse, attack with Iron Head and Earthquake, and use the forth slot for support (Thunder Wave), durability (Rest) or wall (Amnesia).

The forgotten Regi is here to counter the new beast!
Click to expand...
Why not whack Ice Punch on that?

Edit: Didn't see the other posts lol.
 
Shaymin-S takes 25% worth of damage when switching in if Stealth Rock is in play. It also has a 4x Ice Weakness, and unlike Garchomp, doesn't have 108/95/85 Defences, meaning an Ice Shard cripples(or at least serverly damages even with Yache) Shaymin-S.

Also lol Registeel out of anything. The guy deserves some attention. :(
 
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