General Suspect Discussion Thread

There's been a definite lack of community discussion on OU suspects lately. This thread is an attempt to remedy that. This topic is for everyone to discuss any suspects in a general manner. What Pokemon do you feel are suspect in the current BW2 OU metagame? How suspect are they? What threat should be closely examined first? Feel free to say you don't believe anything is suspect, but if you're going to do that make sure you attempt to refute the other suspect claims.

This isn't a suspect nomination thread, so feel free to respond to other users directly. We want to get an idea of what the community thinks of the current metagame, and this is the best place to start. After this discussion concludes, it may be followed with a discussion of Uber suspects (Drill, Thundurus, etc). So save all discussion of those Pokemon until that time.


Birkal Edit: READ THIS POST if you'd like to post in this thread and not be infracted. It contains the rules that you must follow while posting. Thank you.

What do I think is broken in this metagame? Three things that are probably very controversial: Deoxys-D, Sableye, and Baton Pass. All three of these things certainly have ways to bypass them, but nonetheless remain powerful, yet underused, threats. In the hand of a skilled master, either of these can completely demolish a team, but the same is true in the hands of a first time player. What I believe is the broken aspect of them is that they take very little skill to use and abuse and can put anyone in a game winning position against a true master, baton pass in particular. Taunt? Espeon. Phazing? Espeon. Anything that can break baton pass like it used to? Espeon. Each of these aspects are probably not going to be deemed "broken" by the council's standards, yet either one of these can demolish teams will little to no effort.

I believe Tornadus-T is the biggest threat at the moment. Without a way to eliminate Rain or a specially defensive Steel type who is also neutral to Fighting (Jirachi) it's really hard to stop it from spamming Hurricanes all over the metagame.

NP Thundurus-T completely destroys stall, but since nobody seems to be using that set and it doesn't work as well against offensive teams, I don't know if it should be considered suspect.

Tornadus-T is by far the most broken Pokemon of BW2 to date. Even Blissey and Tyranitar fail to counter securely, it's Life orb set allows it to run Superpower that can break the blob alongside with the dino. Regenerator suits it perfectly, retrieving its health from Stealth Rock as well as from life orb. Jirachi stands out as its safiest switch in,(that lacks reliable recovery bear in mind) this forces many teams to build around it or another common check, Mamoswine. Furthermore pushing lower base speed Pokemon to the depths of OU and making priority a must. Knowingly not everything works by slapping on a Scarf and throwing it in your team.

Tornadus-T is incredibly good, but I'd hardly call it broken. Its defenses are better than the standard form, but not by much; it's very easy to revenge kill with common Choice Scarf users like Genesect. Furthermore, while Regenerator prevents Stealth Rock damage from stacking up, it still loses 25% HP to SR on the switchin, which makes it quite frail. Powerful priority or Scarf users make more than adequate checks. And, of course, Hurricane is a double-edged sword; take away the rain and all of a sudden it's a below-average move at best. If you have a good Flying resist, you can bring that in on Tornadus-T with decent prediction and force it out- Tyranitar and Jirachi are the obvious options, and Scarf Rotom-W can survive a Hurricane on the switch if needed and use a fast Volt Switch to either get a KO on Tornadus after Stealth Rock or, given a switch, inflict nice damage while giving you a chance to force a double switch on your opponent's part. All of these are common Pokémon in their own right; it's not like you have to run some piece of PU trash to stand a chance.

GatoDelFuego said:

What do I think is broken in this metagame? Three things that are probably very controversial: Deoxys-D, Sableye, and Baton Pass. All three of these things certainly have ways to bypass them, but nonetheless remain powerful, yet underused, threats. In the hand of a skilled master, either of these can completely demolish a team, but the same is true in the hands of a first time player. What I believe is the broken aspect of them is that they take very little skill to use and abuse and can put anyone in a game winning position against a true master, baton pass in particular. Taunt? Espeon. Phazing? Espeon. Anything that can break baton pass like it used to? Espeon. Each of these aspects are probably not going to be deemed "broken" by the council's standards, yet either one of these can demolish teams will little to no effort.

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Baton Pass is iffy, while Deoxys-D and Sableye i disagree with. Yeah, Deoxys usually gets 2 layers up, but it almost always dies in the process. I know thats what suicide leads do, but starting a match down 6-5 for some hazzards is no longer a good strategy. Deoxys frequently goes up against Politoad, Genesect, or Tyranitar in the lead position, all of witch can lay the hurt on him. Not to mention hyper offense in general is struggling, due to new threats like Ditto, powerful priority users (Breloom, Mamoswine, Scizor mostly), and Pokemon with Regenerator that are extremely hard to wear down. Not to mention you can always spin after Deoxys dies (spinblockers have poor synergy with Deoxys and hyper offensive teams cant afford to run one anyways. And no, Gengar shouldnt be spinblocking, ghost or not.). As for Sableye, it is very annoying, but not impossible to play around and it cant just be thrown on any team. Heatran, Politoad, Gliscor, etc are all fine counters. Toxic Spikes also severely limit its lifespan.

Tornadus-T is the biggest, most obvious suspect. I dont feel like much else is broken (although Breloom and Terrakoin are pretty close). IMO Keledo and Genesect are solid Ous.

I don't know if it's hard to stop by myself, but I've used a Substitute Tornadus-T that is very hard to revenge kill in rain. Even Mamoswine cannot do much if Tornadus-T is behind a substitute, as it has to break it's substitute with Ice Shard first, but it's OHKOed by Hurricane in the process. The only thing that really stops him is a specially defensive Jirachi, but I have many ways to stop the star pixie from walling the green genie. My opponents claimed that this Tornadus-T is very, very hard to stop.

Still, I have found that outside Substitute Tornadus-T, other variants are rather manageable. I run a sand team with a Landorus-I that can easily revenge kill Tornadus-T with Stone Edge. That's why I cited the substitute variant. My opponents have to break it's substitute, as Hurricane kills them.

Genesect on the other hand needs to be sent directly to uber until we have the chance to bring some ubers down to OU (which is a later discussion as you said) and new DW releases (Chandy).

Nearly impossible to trap and kill with our current pokemon, hard to find out which set it is using without losing a lot, near perfect coverage and good typing aided by rain. Also having a good ability in Download which semi-allows it to bypass Multiscale among other things and great offensive stats as a mixed pokemon (120/120/99?) that doesn't hurt either.

This is the first and only time I've ever heard anybody call Tornadus-T uber. He IS handleable, and I think there are more broken things out there, but he's handleable just slightly. I didn't think people thought of him as that much of an uber.

Neither Gensect or Tornadus are broken. They both have plenty of counters. With the presence of many dragons one must have at least one ice move or a dragon counter. If you have that you pretty much countered Tornadus.
However, countering genesect is more challenging, thats why i always carry a scarfed that is faster than Genesect and the problem is solved

X5Dragon said:

Tornadus-T is very, heavily dependent on rain. It is also SR, Ice Shard, ES and BP weak and I say this as weatherless, HO player.

Genesect on the other hand needs to be sent directly to uber until we have the chance to bring some ubers down to OU (which is a later discussion as you said) and new DW releases (Chandy).

Nearly impossible to trap and kill with our current pokemon, hard to find out which set it is using without losing a lot, near perfect coverage and good typing aided by rain.

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Everything you said about Genesect is true, but his main weakness are hazzards, Protect, and his speed. When your U-turning against Ferrothorn, Heatran, and friends the whole game, Genesect tends to take more damage from indirect damage then he dishes out. Rough Skin Garchomp is even more reason to not spam U-turn. When hes not spamming U-turn, protect screws him over, as does stuff like Magnezone and Blissey. Gastrodon also walls him to hell and back.

The only thing "broken" about Genesect is his Expert Belt set, witch is very easy to get a suprise kill with. It still has the same counters as the scarf set though. Oh, and he pairs extremely well with Dugtrio, but im not sure if that makes him or Dugtrio the culprit.

I don't think that anything new of b2w2 is actually broken but the metagame seems a bit boring to me,to be honest.Rain is the most powerful weather due to the new metagame additions and before that little rise of sun with the [victini + genesect + dugtrio + xatu + chlorophyll sweeper + ninetales] teams ,almost every good team was rain or anti rain with stuff such as kingdra and mamoswine(they're not bad pokemon but not really good too).What I think the metagame needs is the rise of the other 2 weathers in order to have some balance between them since we can't have a weatherless metagame without some bans.That cannot be done for hail sadly,but it can easily be done with sand.If we unban garchomp or excadrill the metagame will become only better since both pokemon are not broken as they were.With garchomp's case,take his ability(sand veil) away and he's just a really good dragon but not broken since he will be revenged far easier due to his speed or locking himself in move.On the other side excadrill is a bit more controversial.It has an awesome ability in sand rush,a pretty good typing and great offensive stats.But as the metagame is now it can be countered.Gliscor is not afraid of him as much since he has roost + poison heal now while it can KO back with earthquake (if it has a baloon).Keldeo can kill it with both its STABs,breloom can just mach punch it,conkeldurr kills it with mach punch too and even infernape is able to do it if it has had some damage.Not to mention skarmory,that could handle him unless it flinched hax'd it.Last but not least,by unbanning excadrill we will have a great spinnet back;something the metagame lacks atm.

If there is one thing I want out of the tier (and is so far what I think is the broken Poke in OU) is Tornadus-T. As a matter of fact, Tornadus-T is very comparable to Staraptor and Alakazam. It is pretty much like an Staraptor and Alakazam on steroids.

Why is Tornadus-T so good?

• Great STAB: Hurricane comes in with a whopping 120 base power and it has no drawbacks other than rain being up. This isn't much of an issure considering no Tyranitar or Ninetales is going to risk life and limb to get hit with a coverage move. To put in perspective on how good Flying-STAB in OU: it has less resists than Dragon (Dragon resists: 9 Flying resists: 7). Combine this with his Fighting-type coverage and you got a real monster on your hands. Anyone who has played with a Staraptor knows what powerful Fighting+Flying coverage can break through.
• The ability to rip apart offense. Tornadus-T has a blazing 121 base speed, making it faster than every non-scarfed Pokmon in the tier other than Jolteon. This makes it an incredible asset against offensive teams. Pokemon slower than it will get demolished by Life Orb Hurricane if they do not possess a strong priority move (read Mamoswine and Scizor). Sure you can resort to a Scarfer, but at that point you will have lost one Pokemon and Tornadus-T can switch out with little consequence.
• Lack of counters: Tornadus-T's doesn't have a large amount of counters in OU which makes it a real challenge to play against with defensive teams. In OU you have Jirachi, Sp. Def Zapdos, full health max/max+ Bold Chansey, and Chopple TTar (blissey and TTar gets destroyed by Superpower). That is a really small list of Pokemon to work around with and each have some drawback to deal with. TTar and Jirachi can get trapped by a U-turning Tornadus-T going into Dugtrio, Chansey has to remain at high health to take Superpowers, Sp. Def Zapdos is SR weak (ties into my next point), and Chople TTar limits your ability to win the weather war and is liable to U-turn/2 Superpowers at low health.
• The ability to outlast its counters/checks: Regenerator means that unlike other Flying types Tornadus-T isn't losing health from SR. This gives it a pseudo-immunity to hazards. Spikes paired with Tornadus-T means it can wear down its counters with residual damage faster than they can with it. Jirachi will find itself falling to U-turns+Spikes (even 1 can do). Thunderus-T/Zapdos finds itself in a similar situation with SR. You have to keep the field hazard free to make sure your counters/checks can consistently come in. But getting that Rapid Spin off is very difficult against the rain-offense Tornadus-T will find itself on.
• Grabs momentum really easily. With the ability to force out so many things, Tornadus-T can come in and just take all your momentum right out of the match to put into your opponents hands with U-turn. This can be really aggravating turning many situations into an uphill battle. Taunt can also come into play against Chansey/Jirachi.
• The ability to have a 15% chance of a free turn using its main STAB.While normally the hax aspect isn't very relevant to a Pokemon, it is to Tornadus-T. Hurricane has a decent 30% rate of confusion (same burn rate as scald) which has a 50% chance to hit yourself once you have it. With a little luck it can prevent your Jirachi/Chansey to getting that Wish/Softboiled off to make sure you are high enough health to tank a Hurricane/Superpower next time. It can get very aggravating to have Tornadus-T hax its way through.

So essentially with Tornadus-T, we have an Alakazam that is slightly faster, has better STAB, decent bulk, and fewer counters. Please let it go.

I feel like Drizzle is just too powerful. First of all, it just opens many options for Pokemon that can abuse it. Substitute Calm Mind Jirachi under the rain will now have a 100% accurate Thunder to go along with a rain boosted Water Pulse. The thing about these moves are their effects are doubled because of Jirachi's ability. Thunder has a 60% chance of paralyzing something and Water Pulse has a 40% chance of confusion, making the very annoying combination of ParaFusion. This makes Jirachi a very hard sweeper to stop under the rain. Another Pokemon that can abuse a 100% accurate Thunder is Thundurus-T as it will cause headaches coming off a base 145 Special Attack and access to Nasty Plot. Next up, Hurricane also has a 100% accuracy under the rain. This turns Tornadus-T into one of the hardest Pokemon to counter. Nothing will like to take a Hurricane from this guy and it's fast as hell meaning it will be hard to take it down. If it's ever threatened, too, it can just switch out and any Life Orb recoil is virtually gone. It also learns Superpower allowing it to nail Heatran and Tyranitar, who would otherwise be good counters. Dragonite as well causes an abundance of annoyance with by using its Dual STAB attacks under rain. Combine this with Dragonite's natural bulk and Multiscale, you have one annoying fucker to deal with. Toxicroak also benefits from Drizzle because of its ability, Dry Skin. Under the rain, it basically has two free Leftovers. It can use Life Orb and it will not suffer any recoil since Dry Skin cancels it out, allowing it to as well heal 2.5% each turn. Another Pokemon that can abuse rain is Vaporeon. Hydration Vaporeon just completely blocks any status under the rain and can still hit hard. If it's ever worn down, it can just Rest up and it's awake if rain is up. Pokemon under the rain can also take advantage of the 50% fire-type attack descrease. Pokemon such as Ferrothorn can setup hazards easier than they could without the effects of Drizzle. Pokemon with the ability Rain Dish can also make use of Drizzle on the battlefield. Tentacruel recieves a 12.5% recovery each turn from Leftovers + Rain Dish and can easily rack this up through the use of Protect. Ludicolo can stall opponents out with the use of Leech Seed and its recovery, allowing it to reliably set substitutes up again and repeat. Secondly, to top off the many options rain teams have, water-type moves are also boosted by 50%. Water-types such as Starmie and Rotom-W can hit hard with this effect causing havoc. Another Pokemon that causes a lot of destruction under the rain is Azumarill. Nothing will appreciate coming in on a Choice Band Azumarill's rain boosted Waterfall. It is able to 2HKO 252 HP Latias under the rain, which is pretty vicious. Rain teams are just able to shred opposing teams with their offensive force. That basically sums up the one thing I want out of this tier, Drizzle. Might as well ban Drought while you are at it.

Personally, if there was going to be suspect testing in OU, there would be a few mons I'd expect to see. The first would be the obvious Tornadus-T. This thing is just so darn fast and it has an amazing STAB attack with Hurricane that not only has strong coverage but also a massive base power comingfrom a strong SpAtk, perfect accuracy (under the ever present rain), and a very haxy secondary effect. You have a 51% of being confused from switching into it and receiving a follow up blast which leaves you with a 50% chance of failing to attack next turn and even do some extra damage to yourself. This combined with it's ability to abuse LO and it's excellent coverage options makes it very hard to counter. On top of that, it has one of the best abilities in the game, regenerator, that benefits from one of the most crucial and commonly used aspects of the game, switching. This not only allows it to abuse the previously mentioned life orb, but also to deal with the only hazard it is affected by, to be a very effective scout with U-Turn, and to simply continue to be a bother as it stays in good shape and shrugs off the damage it took from attacks that failed to OHKO it. It even gets useful support moves like Taunt and Rain Dance to shut down set up, prevent status, and maintain the winning side of a weather war.

Secondly, although it doesn't receive as much attention, is Keldeo. It's strong Spd and SpAtk along with its powerful dual STABs can punch holes in anything that lacks resistances to it's attacks along with significant investment in bulk. Being able to 2HKO Dragonite with its rain boosted, LO Hydro Pump while Multiscale is intact is a testament to its immense power. Its over STAB turns it into a powerful mixed sweeper capable of destroying typical special wall withot breaking a sweat. Not only are its attacks powerful, but they also have excellent coverage especially against any unwanted weather starters that would want to try and get cut the strength of its...

Shining Latios said:

I feel like Drizzle is just too powerful. First of all, it just opens many options for Pokemon that can abuse it. Substitute Calm Mind Jirachi under the rain will now have a 100% accurate Thunder to go along with a rain boosted Water Pulse. The thing about these moves are their effects are doubled because of Jirachi's ability. Thunder has a 60% chance of paralyzing something and Water Pulse has a 40% chance of confusion, making the very annoying combination of ParaFusion. This makes Jirachi a very hard sweeper to stop under the rain. Another Pokemon that can abuse a 100% accurate Thunder is Thundurus-T as it will cause headaches coming off a base 145 Special Attack and access to Nasty Plot. Next up, Hurricane also has a 100% accuracy under the rain. This turns Tornadus-T into one of the hardest Pokemon to counter. Nothing will like to take a Hurricane from this guy and it's fast as hell meaning it will be hard to take it down. If it's ever threatened, too, it can just switch out and any Life Orb recoil is virtually gone. It also learns Superpower allowing it to nail Heatran and Tyranitar, who would otherwise be good counters. Dragonite as well causes an abundance of annoyance with by using its Dual STAB attacks under rain. Combine this with Dragonite's natural bulk and Multiscale, you have one annoying fucker to deal with. Toxicroak also benefits from Drizzle because of its ability, Dry Skin. Under the rain, it basically has two free Leftovers. It can use Life Orb and it will not suffer any recoil since Dry Skin cancels it out, allowing it to as well heal 2.5% each turn. Another Pokemon that can abuse rain is Vaporeon. Hydration Vaporeon just completely blocks any status under the rain and can still hit hard. If it's ever worn down, it can just Rest up and it's awake if rain is up. Pokemon under the rain can also take advantage of the 50% fire-type attack descrease. Pokemon such as Ferrothorn can setup hazards easier than they could without the effects of Drizzle. Pokemon with the ability Rain Dish can also make use of Drizzle on the battlefield. Tentacruel recieves a 12.5% recovery each turn from Leftovers + Rain Dish and can easily rack this up through the use of Protect. Ludicolo can stall opponents out with the use of Leech Seed and its recovery, allowing it to reliably set substitutes up again and repeat. Secondly, to top off the many options rain teams have, water-type moves are also boosted by 50%. Water-types such as Starmie and Rotom-W can hit hard with this effect causing havoc. Another Pokemon that causes a lot of destruction under the rain is Azumarill. Nothing will appreciate coming in on a Choice Band Azumarill's rain boosted Waterfall. It is able to 2HKO 252 HP Latias under the rain, which is pretty vicious. Rain teams are just able to shred opposing teams with their offensive force. That basically sums up the one thing I want out of this tier, Drizzle. Might as well ban Drought while you are at it.

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Drizzle itself is not broken. It's at same level as Drought, for example. Problem is that other weathers don't have as many "toys" to "play" as Rain (one of few exceptions is the banned Swift Swim, but main users of Chlorophyll don't have STAB for Fire and their weakness to Fire is aggravated, and Sand Rush has poor distribution). Rain has simply too many things that work well with it, but other weathers don't have as many amazing abilities or moves that work under their weathers as Rain have. The few things that other weathers have, are hindered by some flaws that prevent them from being at the same level as rain.

Rain has too many "toys" to "play". It has Tornadus-T, Thunder, Hydration Vaporeon, Dry Skin Toxicroak, Rain Dish, and other indirect ways of abusing rain, such as Azumarill as said above, and the fact that Steels get their weakness to Fire nullfied.

Sun has, well... Chlorophyll, with it's users don't receiving STAB for Fire attacks, and many of them being too frail... some Fire-type sweepers that have crippling weakness to Stealth Rock... Ninetales itself is also weak to entry hazards... and sun teams have problems covering some threats such as Heatran. And many Pokémon that have their weakness to Water decreased under sun, still have many other crippling weakness. I don't remember any other thing that can be abused with sun.

Sand has the residual damage, but there are many things that are immune to this residual damage. Rock-types have their sp.def increased by 50%, but many of them still have many common weakness. There are very, very few abilities that work under sand, the most notable examples being Sand Force and Sand Rush. Both of them have poor distribution. Other than that, sand doesn't have many things to abuse.

Hail, has... Snow Cloak? lol... And Ice-types are just shitty defensively.

But Rain has too many things to abuse, and that don't have many crippling flaws as other weathers. That's it's problem. It's not the rain itself; it's the things that work well under it.

Melee Mewtwo said:

Secondly, although it doesn't receive as much attention, is Keldeo. It's strong Spd and SpAtk along with its powerful dual STABs can punch holes in anything that lacks resistances to it's attacks along with significant investment in bulk. Being able to 2HKO Dragonite with its rain boosted, LO Hydro Pump while Multiscale is intact is a testament to its immense power. Its over STAB turns it into a powerful mixed sweeper capable of destroying typical special wall withot breaking a sweat. Not only are its attacks powerful, but they also have excellent coverage especially against any unwanted weather starters that would want to try and get cut the strength of its...

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I think that Keldeo is not that broken. It is hard to counter but it has many checks, and the Choice Specs variant is rather easy to revenge kill, especially outside of rain.

I think Drizzle should be suspected. We have known since day one that rain is incredibly powerful. So, what is it still doing in this metagame? The balance of weather (and weatherless) is heavily one-sided in favor of rain. Think about it for a second. None of the opposing weather starters except Abomasnow can take repeated Water-type attacks, while a large number of resists to Hydro Pump are 2HKOed anyway. This makes it incredibly difficult to switch into Water-type attacks unless there are people out there who still actually use Gastrodon (although Ferrothorn is a staple on rain and can get rid of Gastrodon with Power Whip). Weatherless offense has precisely zero Pokemon that can switch in on Hydro Pump, while no person I can think of actually uses Gastrodon on offensive teams. In fact, when a Pokemon as awful as Gastrodon is actually OU because of Drizzle, you know something's wrong. Also, have fun trying to take down Ferrothorn in the rain.

I would just go ahead and suspect Drought as well. The thing about Drought is that the stuff that switches in on Sun sweepers (most commonly Heatran) get smashed by Dugtrio. There's also the less common Earthquake Venusaur. Blissey/Chansey can no longer beat Venusaur thanks to Giga Drain, unless th pink blobs just happen to have Thunder Wave. In fact, nowadays I run Thunder Wave on all of my pink blobs just for Venusaur. On weatherless offensive teams, you can either run Mamoswine or lose against sun teams.

Sand and hail are fine in my opinion, although Landorus may be overpowered without rain/sun to check it, but we can deal with that later.

Err, apparently there is a character limit. That or my DSi is screwing with me. Anyways, I'll try to get more to the point. (Sorry, :()

...almighty Hydro Pump. Thanks to Calm Mind, it can boost its SpAtk to unholy levels while making it even more difficult to revenge kill. Even if you do manage to bring in somthing threating, its solid bulk and resistance to Stealth Rock gives it many opportunities to switch in a blow a hole another hole in your team. It may not have much in the form of coverage moves, but the sheer power of its STABs are more than enough as shown by the dramatic increase in Water Absorb Jellicent over the, formerly popular, Cursed Body varient.


Besides those two, there are two Pokemon I'd LIKE to see suspect even though they aren't overwhelming against some types of teams.

The first is Thundurus-T. Now, for an HO team, the only set it would fear from it is the Agility set as its excellent speed is boosted to hard to match levels where it can unleash super-powered Thunders from its massive SpAtk upon the, generally frail, offensive team. However, Thundurus is far more intimdating against stall teams. Its trolly 101 base speed can easily outurn most walls where it can tear apart the best defenses after its titanic SpAtk is doubled from Nasty Plot. Toxic stalling is difficult due to its ability to easily 2HKO even the best special walls after a single boost. Its immunity to electric attacks and use of special moves make Thunder Wave and WoW unviable alternatives. Although it has a weakness to Stealth Rock, it gains an immunity to both Spikes and Toxic Spikes and has Volt Absorb to ease switch-ins in spite of the bothersome rocks. It has all the coverage moves it needs in the form of Hidden Power, Focus Blast, Super Power, and Grass Knot to complement its devastating Thunder. Although, its speed may also leave open to revenge killing, the threat of its attacks makes it difficult to safely bring the faster threat in.

Nothing is broken in the current meta.

Some threats are more potent than others, but nothing is running around the meta right now that is "over-centralising" or something every team requires a counter for.

The few posts I've read seem to read more like "I would have more fun if this was gone". And while having fun while playing a game is important, fun is a subjective thing and the facts remain that many teams with Tornadus-T, Rain in general and Genesect all lose.

They are not instant win-conditions and their presence in the meta has not caused that much of a shake-up.

Edit: Just re-reading my post and I might be seen to be belittling the posts above. That's not my intent and it's just my opinion at the end of the day. I think it's fine to talk about suspects but currently I feel that OU has stabilised and although we're having a discussion about potential suspects doesn't mean that we are required to find a suspect.

Wow, is there a character limit or is it really just my DSi? Anyways, I only have one last Pokemon to ramble about.

The second Pokemon I'd LIKE to see suspect is Gothitelle. I know this is conterversial but I believe this creepy transvestite is underated. I've heard that its choice sets are solid weather starter trappers. (though it's not like these new rain abusers need the support) However, the set that concerns me the most is Shrang's wall slayer set. (Taunt, Torment, Protect, Substitute) Chansey/Blissey, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Jellicent are all popular walls that can easily fall victim to this set giving sweepers the opportunity to clean up the opponent's team. It's even capable of eliminating choice-locked Pokemon getting rid of the threat of revenge killers cutting a sweep short. Gothitelle has many more options and I feel that with a little creativity it can easily eliminate whatever threat your team fears the most.

Now, although these two Pokemon are less threatening to more offensive teams, they can be absolute monsters to Stall making it less viable in the very offensive BW2 metagame. I remember Reuniclus once being suspect for the same reason, except that in his case, he was countered by the two most popular and threatening Pursuiters in the game, something it was particularily weak to. Sadly, Thundy's Focus Blast and Thunder and Gothitelle's substitute elminate that option allowing them to perform their job and live to tell the tale. That's all I have for suspect. Genesect gets honorable mentions but I don't know it enough to be ableto say anything about it.

Melee Mewtwo said:

Wow, is there a character limit or is it really just my DSi? Anyways, I only have one last Pokemon to ramble about.

The second Pokemon I'd LIKE to see suspect is Gothitelle. I know this is conterversial but I believe this creepy transvestite is underated. I've heard that its choice sets are solid weather starter trappers. (though it's not like these new rain abusers need the support) However, the set that concerns me the most is Shrang's wall slayer set. (Taunt, Torment, Protect, Substitute) Chansey/Blissey, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Jellicent are all popular walls that can easily fall victim to this set giving sweepers the opportunity to clean up the opponent's team. It's even capable of eliminating choice-locked Pokemon getting rid of the threat of revenge killers cutting a sweep short. Gothitelle has many more options and I feel that with a little creativity it can easily eliminate whatever threat your team fears the most.

Now, although these two Pokemon are less threatening to more offensive teams, they can be absolute monsters to Stall making it less viable in the very offensive BW2 metagame. I remember Reuniclus once being suspect for the same reason, except that in his case, he was countered by the two most popular and threatening Pursuiters in the game, something it was particularily weak to. Sadly, Thundy's Focus Blast and Thunder and Gothitelle's substitute elminate that option allowing them to perform their job and live to tell the tale. That's all I have for suspect. Genesect gets honorable mentions but I don't know it enough to be ableto say anything about it.

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Well if it's underrated then it's not broken.... Players would be abusing said broken sets left to right. It's more of an annoyance to say the most of it. Genesect can be easily scouted out, since it's most popular sets are choiced. Specially defensive Heatran can do this, although as it is being paired up with Dugtrio, these two paired can wreck a lot of havoc.

Out of all the new toys we got so far:

Landorus-T: It's actually pretty decent, but far from broken / suspect worthy. It's incredibly annoying with Intimidate and U-turn, but it doesn't have recovery. If it did, I might have just pulled my hair out.

Thundurus-T: I've been using Sub Nasty Plot and it gives any balanced / Stall team without a gastrodon trouble. Even Ferrothorn takes upwards of 70% from a boosted Thunder and while it has some difficulty setting up, it can prey on Forretress, Ferrothorn, most water types will switch out, etc. Even against offensive teams, Life Orb Thunder is OHKOing a lot on your average offensive pokemon. 101 base speed is good but not great, so it can be revenged quite easily. It still has some universal counters regardless of the set, like Gastrodon and Quagsire and some other Water/Grounds.

Tornadus-T: difficult to say here. It has plenty of checks - Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, Blissey, Chansey, Tyranitar, Defensive Rotom-W, Jolteon, and such. When it comes to practice though, it can still be difficult to deal with because U-turn will wear all of them down eventually. The worst thing is probably the confusion too, as you can actually lose one on one with Jirachi if you have bad luck with confusion. Blissey can switch in on Hurricane, and heal through the Superpower to keep it in check, but obviously switching in on superpower is not good. It doesn't kill it's self from recoil either, so it can bounce around a lot. Although if you have Stealth Rock down and it attacks once, you're still getting damage on it in the long run (2%, but it's better than nothing. 12% if it attacks twice) As long as you have one or two of these checks though, you really shouldn't have any problems with it. It's also pretty reliant on rain, as it's risky to throw out Hurricane with only 70% accuracy. Overall, I don't think it's broken personally, but it may be worth a test.

Genesect: Also a tough one. It's coverage is awesome, there are very few common scarfers that outspeed it ( i.e. Rotom, Politoed, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Haxorus all fail to outspeed) However, it's defenses are meager with a naive nature and minimal investment which means it will die to a lot of common special attacks which limits it's switch in opportunities. Still it's very versatile and a great revenge killer, especially in Sun. I think this guy may be worth a test.

Meloetta: Really unique and versatile, Calm Mind + 3 attacks is actually awesome, as it really has no troubles with Scizor / Tyranitar like reuniclus, and it can actually switch in on something, unlike Alakazam. Relic Songs sets are cool, as it has good wall breaking potentail and really good speed for a late game clean up. It's not common though, and has some roadblocks for each of it's sets. Not worth a test, but I encourage people to use it since it's actually really unappreciated.

Keldeo: Again, really good, but not gamebreaking. Specs in Rain hurts anything not named Latias, Celebi, or Amoongus and even all three of them are taking a big beating. Scarf hits fast, offensive teams hard, while Calm Mind can wall break pretty well. The problem is that Tornadus-T, and the aforementioned pokemon do pretty well in checking / countering it so it's not too out of hand. Not really worth the test in my opinion.

I've played my fair share of B/W2 and I really do not think there is anything thus far that warrants a ban. From my perspective, I really didn't think anything was deemed "broken" or "overpowered", however it's fairly easy to see that B/W2 does not represent a balanced metagame. Obviously there are some Pokemon that are much harder to deal with than others, but as a whole I really don't think that warrants a ban on it's own. I completely understand the reasoning for the banning of Tornadus-T, but at the same time any well built team can play around it very easily. Common mons such as SDef Jirachi, and even new sets such as SDef Rotom-W and ResTalk Heatran also suffice in terms of dealing with Tornadus-T. Like any other potent sweeper, it does have its fair share of counters, and if you prepare for it, like any other common mon that can wreck teams, it's really not that much of a problem. I really don't agree with banning something when it has so many common checks, and can be dealt with. Such potent sweepers also leads to a lot more diversity in the tier, as new Pokemon rise up in usage as they have a certain niche in being able to deal with the Pokemon that everyone deems "overpowered" or "broken". Even Pokemon pre B/W2 such as Terrakion had arguably fewer switch ins, and even then no one thought it was broken, but I guess Tornadus-T has the ability to eventually beat its checks so I don't know. I haven't really had any problems with Tornadus-T, but I can definitely attest to it's effectiveness especially with the prevalence of Rain, STAB Hurricane, U-Turn and Regenerator.

Since when was cursed body jellicent popular? It's a terrible set and it dies too easily when weakened to powerful water attacks. Gothitelle, as with most trappers, is cheap as hell and needs to die in a hole, though.

@Ricky horror: That's kinda like saying any Choiced mon can't be broken. Sure there are ways to play around it, but those 120 base attacking stats, STAB U Turn, wide coverage movepool, Download and 99 base speed is going to make it hard. Plus its got a solid defensive typing that let it switch in a lot easier.

Gothitelle is underated because stall is less common than offense in BW2 for obvious reasons. However, for Stall teams it's a nightmare. Losing your Chansey turn 3 cause a Hydreigon U-Turned into him as you brought her in to sponge a Draco Meteor is enough to lose you the game right there. Stuff like Amoongbro also fears sets like Choice Specs with its boosted coverage moves and unavoidable Trick.

Edit: @the guy above me: in BW1 it was standard to run Cursed Body on every one of its sets but Specs since it let you cripple a mon and force a switch with Recover stall. A water resist and 105 base Spdef WAS enough to deal with water attacks.