OU Suspect Testing Round 4 Voter Identification and Nominations

Congratulations to everyone that made the cut! This was a very, very long round, and the voter pool is quite considerable as a result. Here are the official screenshots of the rankings at 11:59 PM EDT, June 4th, 2011 C.E.




(Sorry about the terribly arranged screenshots, not so good at that...!)

If you did not make the cutoff this time, but still think you deserve to vote, we are accepting Special Permissions applications. Please fill this form out and PM it to these users: Philip7086, Bloo, Jibaku, JabbaTheGriffin and myself.

Special Permissions Application said:

1. What was your highest ranked account, and what was its rating on Saturday, June 4th at 11:59pm EDT?

2. Why do you believe you should be given voting rights, even though you did not meet the requirements?

Click to expand...

On top of voter identification, this thread is also where everybody is allowed to post their suspect nominations. Here are some rules to keep in mind when submitting nominations:

1. We are allowing people to nominate abilities for a ban vote. If you nominate an ability, keep in mind that it will be banned on all Pokemon who get it. If a Pokemon only has one ability and that ability gets banned, said Pokemon will also effectively be banned (at least, until its secondary ability is released in Dream World).
2. You may not nominate an ability + Pokemon combo.
3. Remember that you may also nominate current Uber Pokemon to bring down into OU for testing. If these Pokemon get voted down, they will automatically be suspect to a vote after the next round to determine if they should stay OU or not.
4. You are not required to cater your nomination to any of the three 4th gen characteristics of an Uber. All we are looking for in these nominations are sound logic and nomination popularity.
5. There is no minimum length per nomination; if you get your thoughts across, and you show good reasoning, that's all we need to see.
6. All suspects that passed a simple majority but not a super majority last round are automatically suspects this round. You do not need to nominate them again.

Reminder: This thread is NOT for getting into debates about whose nominations are good or bad. Please do not reply to any posts in this thread. I will keep the other suspect thread open for such discussion to take place. All posts breaking this rule will be deleted, and the users are subject to a forum warning.

This thread will close and the Suspects for this round will be determined at 11:59 PM EDT, Thursday June 9th, 2011 C.E.

Edit: As a reminder, Latios and Deoxys-e are automatically Suspects as a result of last round's voting.

Identifying as Finn The Human

Drizzle: Incredibly overpowering. To put it in perspective, a hydro pump from modest Politoed in rain is more powerful than a timid Latios draco meteor, as is a hydro pump from a timid Starmie. There are a lot of nominations for Latios based on the power of specs draco meteor… Starmie in the rain is faster, stronger, has a surprise factor, utilizes a better defensive typing and almost as good offensive typing, and uses a STAB move that hits Tyranitar super effectively. More obscure threats are also made overwhelmingly powerful; Thunderus and Tornadus both can abuse base 120 STAB moves from a base 125 special attack while getting amazing coverage with focus blast that has propelled them to two of the top threats in the metagame. Jirachi can utilize thunder very dangerously on a number of sets, my favorite being sub CM. Azumarill’s CB waterfall hits harder than an adamant +2 Excadrill earthquake. The swift swim ban made rain more manageable, but it’s still stupidly overpowered.

Drought: It's just as overpowered as rain, the difference being that it is at a disadvantage vs non-weather. Specs Heatran can OHKO Blissey with a flash fire boost. Blissey. Pokemon like Victini and Darmanitan act as nukes and can destroy almost everything that tries to switch in. Volcarona is simply a god in sun, no questions asked. Bulky waters are rendered pretty much useless, and even otherwise frail fire types can grab a boost in the face of a bulky water. I haven't even touched on chlorophyll yet; growth Venusaur is absolutely ridiculous, isnt hit super effectively by any common priority, and can OHKO everything but dedicated special walls with its STABs + HP fire. Drought hasn't had a chance to shine with other weather around, but that's just broken checking broken. Drought will dominate a drizzle-less meta.

Excadrill: Adamant LO Excadrill is countered only by Gliscor and Skarmory. Slowbro of all things is OHKOed by a +2 Earthquake. Excadrill can't be revenge killed except by priority and changing the weather. There are only two priority users that can OHKO Excadrill, and both are UU. Changing the weather is just another example of broken checking broken. When a pokemon can outspeed the entire tier and hit with swords dance boosted earthquakes from a 135 base attack stat (not to mention toxic and twave immune), its broken. Then there's rapid spin Excadrill, which ohkos all relevant ghost types at +2, thus spinning away hazards at will, tearing down the fabric of stall. How people can continually justify voting this pokemon OU is beyond me.

I'm bro fist

Noms: Sand Stream, Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning

Shell Smash + Baton Pass

Thundurus

i'm some suy

Garchomp: Garchomp is obviously the most broken Pokemon in the metagame. With sand veil garchomp can turn a game that you had in the bag, into a potential sweep against you. Even gliscor cant counter this thing as garchomp isn't OHKO'd by ice fang and gliscor is 2hkod by a +2 dragon claw. as shows in the tour finals today, garchomp shits up the metagame and turns a skill based game into a game where luck takes over, and i don't think anyone wants that to be the BW metagame.

Confirming as SMB in training5

Thundurus -- Unless you have a special wall on your team, you WILL need to sack Pokemon to deal with Thundurus. Its support set with Thunder Wave and Taunt can be annoying, but the real culprit of brokenness is its Nasty Plot set. At a freakishly trollish base speed level of 111 (wtf Gamefreak), this thing can set up a Plot on water types with ease, and rip major holes in teams. At that point, you need a strong Choice Scarfer like Garchomp to stop it. Its wonderful typing, awesome coverage (Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Hidden Power Ice), and resistance to the most common priority moves (Mach Punch and Bullet punch) only aid in its sweeping ability.

The return of some Swift Swimmers --

Some of you may call me crazy for saying that some Swift Swim Pokemon should return, but I feel like it deserves some thought and debate. There are Swift Swimmers out there that are clearly not broken under any circumstances, like Floatzel, Lumineon, Mantine, Relicanth, and Seismitoad among others. The plain fact of the matter is that these Pokemon are not very good if weather is not in their favor, and most that I mentioned aren't very good even if it IS raining. Thus, I feel like it would be healthy for the metagame to allow a period in which some of these Pokemon are tested.
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Also, I'm open to the idea of banning all weather. I would actually prefer having two separate metagames (one based on weather and the other based on clear skies), since it seems to be the most conservative approach. Banning all weather is a good temporary solution, though.

Confirming as Sun God and Spiral Fighter.

Nominations:

Garchomp: Garchomp is still the best sweeper ever created by GF. The incredible power (base 135 atk, high base power moves and Swords Dance) the speed (base 102 is solid in BW) and incredible bulk (108/95/85 defenses allow him to tank some of the heaviest attacks in the game) make Garchomp into a menace, but even with all of those pros Garchomp still has counters. Its when you add Sand Veil on top of all those benefits that things go hairy. Sand Veil grants Garchomp 20% chance to dodge an attack which is HUGE on Garchomp. You don't want to give a Pokemon like Garchomp a free turn. Many claim that Garchomp is hard countered by Skarmory, but the metallic bird has a chance of losing if it misses Whirlwind and its Swords Dance Garchomp. What about checking Garchomp with a faster Pokemon that has a super effective move, but losing because it missed against Garchomp. There's always a chance of losing, even when you have a massive lead over the opponent because Garchomp is alive and well. The phrase "the game is never over when Garchomp is alive" is both disgusting when you consider how much of an influence it has over a game. Garchomp should be banned.

Thundurus: Thundurus is an incredible sweeper that is almost impossible to wall because of its insane power and amazing coverage. By far the most deadly set is Nasty Plot + 3 attacks, which has about 1 universal counte. Specially Defensive Quagsire will usually come out on top barring the extremely rare Grass Knot Thundurus. Everything else gets utterly obliterated by its sheer power. It can run an assortment of sets, each varying in use. It can run a mixed set with Hammer Arm lets it bypass Tyranitar and Blissey with relying on Focus Blasts shaky accuracy or a Lum berry to bypass status from Jirachi's and other defensive walls. It receives a massive power boost in the rain because it can now abuse 100% accurate Thunders that are disgustingly strong. Its too much of a menace to be left in the metagame and it should be banned.

Shell Smash + Baton Pass: I was thinking of nominating Gorebyss, Smeargle and Huntail but I decided against it when I considered I could just nominate that move combination. I did this because I wanted to achieve as little bans as possible. By now we know what Shell Smash and Baton Pass do. Gorebyss/Smeargle/Huntail can set up a sweeper in 1 turn and make them almost impossible to counter. Its an easy and brainless strategy that is too difficult to stop when properly used. Also, with the newly upgraded Magic Bounce Espeon, SmashPass teams are even harder to stop now that Espeon can completely bypass phazing.

the best hockey coach around Gordon Bombay and the unstoppable pokemon master Treiner Orenge

Nominations:

Excadrill: Arguably the best sweeper in the game, definitely in the league of Thundurus. Has more counters than thundurus, but has less checks, and I see that as the main problem with Excadrill. Racking your brain how to make a team that can deal with this thing is ridiculous. I've found you either have to use drizzle, gliscor, skarmory (who does nothing but ww it out), or some random unreliable balloon mon. I don't know about everyone else but I like playing a game with some variety. The number of SD Adamant Life Orb Drills has been increasing though, which makes even gliscor and skarmory unreliable ways to deal with it. Because of its speed, the checks are pretty much limited to Azumarill and Conkledurr. Obviously if this thing didn't have 550 speed in sand it wouldn't be a problem, but that coupled with its insane power is just way too much for OU. At the very least I think of this of a way of crippling sand the same way we crippled rain when we banned Drizzle + Swift Swim.

Garchomp: I'm not even going to pussyfoot around the whole sand veil issue for right now because it's obvious that it's just Chomp that's the problem and even though I think sand veil should be banned under evasion clause, I'd just rather do this the straightforward way and get this thing out of the metagame. Anyone watching the tour today could see it was just a cancer on the game. The effect it has on the metagame is just devastating. Not only is it an amazing Pokemon, but it turns every single one of your 100% accurate moves into Stone Edge and your Stone Edge just about into Hypnosis. That's just way too much luck dependency we're throwing into the game and far too many tournament matches are being decided by who misses the most on this thing. It definitely needs to go if we don't want BW OU to be a joke. (If people start to write out nominations for it i'll add in Sand Veil + Sandstream on the same team).

Thundurus: The extreme lack of counters combined with how dangerous it can be to revenge this thing (losing a mon then having a faster mon priority twaved means the thundurus user is definitely coming out on top) push this thing over the edge. Obviously it can't run all of its best moves on one set, but every set containing one of those moves is as dangerous as the next. Plot is what really puts it over the edge though. The Plot set is just insane and requires you to either predict perfectly or have Quagsire I guess. I'm not Nostradamus and I'd rather not use Quagsire. It's just far too good. Definitely the lamest of the genie bros.

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Okay with those out of the way, since it's gaining some popularity. Here I go with my All Weather Abilities nomination:

I don't think it'd really be right to break them down into individual nominations, since that's not the way it works with weather. They all (even hail would if left to its own devices) have a negative effect on the metagame that turns it into something that just isn't fun to play. I could talk about how Drizzle and Drought boost the capabilities of both its sweepers and its walls and stuff like that, but that's useless. Anyone that's played can tell you the cumulative effect these abilities have on the metagame. I'm of the personal opinion that this effect is indeed quite terrible and I've talked to more than a few people and it really is an all or nothing thing. So yeah here it is, an all weather ability nomination and whatnot.

hey im juturna and crack the skye

Garchomp: The presence of Garchomp in OU is unhealthy for the game. Although its Base 102 Speed isn't as scary in BW due to the introduction of the musketeer and genie trios, Garchomp is still way ahead of the majority of Pokemon in terms of Speed, especially considering much of the metagame is clumped around the 243 Speed benchmark. Garchomp has deceptively high bulk, amazing Attack, and the best possible dual STAB. Its counters are few and far between to begin with because of these traits, but Sand Veil puts it over the top in terms of its brokeness. All it takes is one missed Ice Fang from Gliscor or a missed Roar from Hippowdon for Garchomp to rip through an entire team. Even Skarmory and Bronzong, which should always come out on top against Garchomp, risk losing to a well-timed miss against Fire Fang variants. It is unrealistic to expect players to pack several Garchomp counters in case one happens to miss against it, and the fact that Garchomp is already doing this indicates its dominance in the current metagame. Sand Veil is not inherently broken as illustrated by the scarcity of Cacturne, Sand Veil Gliscor, etc. on the ladder, but Garchomp possesses everything it needs to sweep a solid, well-constructed team with a single miss. Garchomp frequently introduces unnecessary luck into OU due to Sand Veil, which is why it should be banned if we're striving for a balanced and playable metagame.

Enjoy your Lucid Dreams.

After an arduous quest (a few PO bros can vouch for that) I can finally confirm as Lolcat.

Noms-

Brightpowder/Lax Incense back to OU- Okay, this one shouldn't be a stretch. The Suspect Test procedure should test brokenness, not competitiveness. Evasion Clause, for the past four generations, meant no Double Team and no Minimize and no moves that increased evasion. However, it seems Smogon's gotten a bit whiny about hax recently and banned evasion items under this clause even though the items were never deemed broken. No Pokemon in this game besides maybe Cacturne can abuse Brightpowder well, not even Garchomp who should be running Leftovers for the extra Substitute on the wildly popular HaxChomp set. So, even if something solely increased Evasion but did not do so to a considerable extent, why should it be banned? Worst of all under Evasion Clause. It was banned because Garchomp abused it "well", but we still banned it under Evasion Clause. Basically, we amended the definition of a clause in every metagame of every generation since GSC just to slightly nerf one Pokemon? Yeah, if Chomp's broken with Brightpowder then ban Chomp.

Test Swift Swimmers in OU- Aldaron's Proposal was a temporary solution to a permanent problem, and now that we have a pretty balanced metagame it's time to repeal the Proposal and decide what needs to go. As many people have pointed out, Smogon officially has decided that Magikarp, Feebas, Luvdisc and co. are too good for the OU metagame and need to be nerfed to preserve the balance. Though some may say that it was a good idea to pass the Proposal, it's time to officially test Drizzle and its effects on the OU metagame. We have to decide to either ban Politoed or Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, and co.

No (New) Suspects- I really think no more Pokemon have to go this metagame. Besides Latios and Deoxys-S (the former is pretty good, the latter isn't even remotely broken), the only Pokemon that could even be considered Suspect is Thundurus. Excadrill is stopped cold by Gliscor and Skarm and Bronzong and Azumarill and almost always beaten by Conkeldurr, Landorus, other Excadrill, Ferrothorn (sometimes), etc, not to mention that it's only useful in Sand which can be neutered. Garchomp is good but if you don't get any hax Garchomp is completely useless because you waste all your HP on Subs and even if Sand Veil works, you're only at +2 and have tons of counters. Almost any Balloon mon can beat it unless the Chomp user uses Dragon Claw on the switch (and if he does, then be predicted well and deserves the offensive momentum) and so many new things outspeed it it's hilarious. Chomp is good, but not Uber good. Drizzle isn't nearly broken, the abusers are completely dependent on it and Sand is so much easier to use. Drought is only good because of its surprise value, Ninetales is so hard to use it's insane and Tyranitar destroys it. (so does Toed, Hippo, and Tar). SmashPass shouldn't even get a response because it's so bad and hard to use it's not even good enough to stay in UU, and people want to move it to Ubers? It's called Haze/Roar/Whirlwind/Priority/Dragon Tail/attacking Huntail/Gorebyss/Smeargle/Excadrill if it's slow/etc. This is a pretty damn good metagame, and it's time to put down the banhammer and start testing Swift Swim before something crazy like Genesect or DW Litwick shows up to re-unbalance the metagame.

Where's 69-80???
EDIT: nvm, I see them now.

I am myteamisbad.

Nominations:

Drizzle - It's so good that nearly every team requires using another weather to beat it, or one of a limited pool of designated anti-Drizzle pokemon. 100% accurate Thunders, 50% reduced fire attacks, 50% boosted water attacks that almost all get STAB already is just ridiculous. Its inducer also has an advantage against all the other weather inducers, and is much easier to switch in, so keeping Rain on the field is much easier than keeping Sand/Sun/Hail on the field.

Garchomp - It's a ridiculous haxbeast. Since Tyranitar is on many, many teams, it's very easy for it to abuse Sand Veil to beat its counters/checks. Its stats, typing, and movepool are already excellent and make it ridiculously good, but Sand Veil just pushes it over the edge. Actually, it doesn't even have any reliable counters/checks, not only because of Sand Veil, but because its excellent offensive and defensive stats allow it to easily beat its counters/checks if they miss just once. The Substitute Swords Dance set has also gotten increased popularity, and people are purposely abusing luck to win their battles. This isn't the same as hoping for a lucky critical hit either, as they can repeatedly abuse this as long as Garchomp is faster than the pokemon that its facing. Garchomp's high attack, speed, decent bulk, typing, hax ability, versatility, and great coverage with offensive STABs prove that it's once again too powerful for the current OU metagame.

I am a quite talented band, Paramore.

After reading mien's post I am nominating Lugia for a test in OU. He said the points better than I can, so I won't bother to say it here.

Confirming as Eternal and Arin

zapzap29 is zapzap29. Also a fan of Stereopony lead singer Aimi.

Nominations

Thundurus- Thundurus is a little too good in my opinion. It's fast, powerful, and incredibly versatile. Whether it's the NP set, twave taunt, or mixed this poke always does serious damage. The NP set is especially potent since Thundurus can basically OHKO or 2hko everything in the metagame at +2. A plus 2 focus blast does 54.9% - 64.7% to the standard wish Blissey. Thundurus can also use Hammer Arm for consistency. Even the variants that aren't NP can cause serious problems by crippling pokes with Prankster twave and taunt. Thundurus can also utilize mixed sets to deadly effect. Nothing truly counters Thundurus in the sense that nothing can safely switch in and take a second hit from Thundurus. Excadrill can outspeed Thundurus and kill with an unboosted rock slide or frustration but it can't switch in safely without risking being hit by focus blast. Azumarill, Weavile, and Mamoswine can ohko Thundurus with priority but none of these pokes are safe switch ins either. Scarf pokes sent in to revenge Thundurus can be paralyzed by priority prankster and thus have to be wary of which set Thundurus is running. Thundurus easily sweeps teams with minimal set up and can also function as a supporting poke.

Swift Swim- I propose that we reconsider Aldaron's proposal and retest a few swift swim pokes. While I believe that Aldaron's proposal was the best move at the time and that it greatly improved the state of the metagame there are a few pokes that I think would be perfectly viable in OU. Pokes like Floatzel, Luvdisc, Lumineon, and Magikarp are hardly threatening even when the weather is in their favor. Now I'm not saying we should bring back pokemon like Kabutops, Kingdra, and Ludicolo. To get around a repeat of the round 2 rain metagame we could institute a quick ban on the more powerful Swift Swimmers and retest the ones that aren't as good. Alternatively, we could put a limit on how many swift swim pokes are allowed on a drizzle team. Perhaps a rewording of Aldaron's proposal something along the lines of, "Drizzle teams can only have one swift swimmer."

AfroThunderRule


Nominating Garchomp

Confirming as Foxxy Lady and Fried Rhys.

Garchomp: this guy is a (BAN ME PLEASE). his ability is bad for the metagame. it makes basically any tournament he's allowed in a fucking joke. it's not that sand veil is inherently broken, because missing a cacturne means jack shit. missing garchomp means you're either gonna lose or at the very least lose a couple more mons. let's stop embarassing ourselves by allowing this (BAN ME PLEASE) to taint the metagame

Confirming Vrai.

Drizzle, Drought, Smashpass

will probably give reasoning later.

Confirming BlueBlur

Garchomp - With Tyranitar being the heaviest abuser of weather (as seen from the usage stats of the past month) you can almost always count on seeing this thing in sand which means you only have an 80% chance of beating it which is already tough enough. With the common Yache Berry or Substitute versions, combined with its bulk, Garchomp has no hard time in setting up and then completely mulling through anything with its amazing STABs of Earthquake and Outrage, and then added with Fire Fang, there's nothing that can safely counter Chomp.

Thundurus - There is just no reliable counter for this thing. Not only is its SpecAtt spectacular, but its Att stat is also built to the point where things like Blissey and Chansey can't stand up to a Hammer Arm (or even a +2 Focus Blast for that matter). The best shot you have is using a Bronzong with HP Ice which still can only stand up to LO Tbolts for so long with no recovery outside of rest.

Confirming as Without Limits and Achilles.

folgorio meee

edit with noms:

Thundurus: This is in my opinion, the most broken pokemon in the metagame. Its list of 'counters' (because every single one of them can be beat with the right move) is pathetically small and usually involves using something mediocre that does little but counter thundurus (aka swampert/quagsire). Its got extremely good offensive stats both physically and specially along with 111 speed (faster than basically every unboosted pokemon bar starmie and a few others that are commonly used) and an outright amazing movepool to abuse it with. Not only this but it also has an excellent stab in electric and very good typing in elec/flying (despite being SR weak).

garchomp OR sand veil: Evasion clause blah blah blah. This thing robs games more often than games should be robbed. It is pretty much the definition of 'uncompetitive' in my opinion. Basically we're letting luck decide WAY too many games thanks to this stupid thing. This basically makes it so that the only 2 'definite' counters are skarmory and bronzong, and make garchomp extremely difficult to revenge kill...

Confirming as Taxi Driver


Garchomp: The most threatening pokemon around and for good reason. Incredibly strong and fast combined with the best dual stabs in the game, and it has the bulk of a swampert. It brings a unhealthy element of hax into the metagame that allows a game you should of had in the bag to become a loss. You can just click the substitute button until they miss and from there its good game.

I am the Big Ticket.

Confirming as Juanela ('cos someone already took "Alice" u.u)
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I was going for the no bans until I ran against a smashpass team and got completely sweeped by it. Surely, there are ways to counter them (I've faced many of them before, and they didn't give me so much trouble, until this one...), and my team ran many of them (taunt, priority, setup-ing, heck... even perish song!). The thing here is that many teams can counter parts of this strategy (stopping the screens, or nullifying/stopping the pass), but you can get overwhelmed really easy (like bringing 2 smashpassers along with 2 screeners), especially when smeargle is present. That thing can ruin your countering strategy easily, with taunt/magic coat and spore alone, the latter ensuring the recipient gets into the field cleanly. And as PK Gaming said before, magic bounce BP Espeon makes things even uglier.

So I'm for banning either of the boldfaced things -.-

I am locopoke.

Excadrill, Garchomp, Thundurus, Shell Smash passing

No, not just Shell Smash + Baton Pass. I've decided to nominate the move Baton Pass as a whole. After laddering a little more post-suspect test, I've realized how ridiculously hard it is to take down BP chain teams, mainly because of Espeon. It's very easy to boost up with Vaporeon, Celebi, Venomoth, Ninjask, Mr. Mime, or a plethora of others and pass the boosts to Espeon. After that, the user can begin OHKOing all of your Pokemon with Stored Power. Thanks to Magic Bounce, all you need is some speed boosts and you can pass to Espeon at any time to keep from getting taunted. The only way to really beat this strategy is with Prankster Taunt, which only 4 Pokemon have access to.

And this isn't the only way to utilize Baton Pass, if the user is impatient and doesn't want to pass around boosts for 10 minutes, they can run Dual Screens + Gorebyss + Espeon to quickly decimate their opponents with Stored Power. Not as efficient, but still deadly. Espeon is hardly the problem though, since you don't really need Espeon to win with Baton Pass, it's just the icing on the cake.

Confirming featherdan

(and insomaniac at the absolute bottom of that image...)

Nominations: No bans

Okay really I'm not kidding about this lol. I feel that the meta is already well balanced and fun, and I actually do like the weather wars. If I had to take on the offensive and ban something though, I'd get rid of weather before the abusers. Also by that I'd mean pretty much all the weather since I don't want Sandstorm running amuk again like DP (and it's already a powerful force in the current meta). But, as it stands, I'd take the no ban option while everything remains fine.

Also free Latios darn it.