Arceus (Revamp) (GP 0/2)

Credit goes to Fireburn for the original analysis and Poppy for the previous WIP update. Thanks!

STATUS REPORT:
OVERALL NOTES:
UPDATE ANALYSIS NOTES:

QC checks: shrang, barry4ever, Poppy, Furai [4/3]
GP checks: piiiikachuuu [AM] [0/2]

Click to expand...

[OVERVIEW]

<p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably the best Pokemon in the entire game. His stats are unrivaled; His versatility is unmatched. His impact remains unquestionable. As ordained at the shaping of the universe, His purest forme is somewhat deficient in defensive synergy. A lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks is tempered with a sole immunity to Ghost-type attacks. But whether wiping His many creations from the fabric of existence as Extreme Killer or standing as their resolute guardian as Wallceus, the God of Pokemon knows no bounds. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>

[SET]
name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
item: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Thanks to Extreme Killer's very good bulk and the priority of His ExtremeSpeed, He is very difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a base 120 Attack stat, the ease of setting up a Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the best late-game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>

<p>Swords Dance will enhance the power of His STAB ExtremeSpeed to incredible levels. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is more than capable enough to OHKO even the deadliest of Uber titans, such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Mewtwo, Latias, Palkia, and Reshiram.</p>

<p>To repel the Ghost-types that can come in on ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw is the preferred option in the third slot for its high reliability. For those that crave more power, Shadow Force is another option. Its power after a Swords Dance is so extreme that even physically defensive Giratina risks being OHKOed without any hazards provided Arceus is Adamant and holding Life Orb; Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus, and Wobbuffet are easily OHKOed. Shadow Force also evades crippling support moves such as Will-O-Wisp during its charge turn, though the charge turn in itself can prove most inconvenient against Lugia and Normal-type Pokemon. For His last slot, Earthquake eradicates the Rock- and Steel-types that could otherwise take an ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga or Heatran. Brick Break, though less powerful, breaks through troublesome screens and is significantly more effective against Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Wallceus. Recover improves His longevity and allows Him to act as a pivot at the detriment of coverage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With STAB ExtremeSpeed as His judgment, one might wonder why Arceus even bothers with Speed. After all, the given EVs and nature grant Him a superb combination of maximum power, bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But alas, Arceus's incredible versatility allows Him to run several EV spreads just as effective as the last. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. To outspeed positive base 90s like Timid Dialga, 124 Speed EVs is sufficient. 168 Speed EVs will outspeed any positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza. For other key threats, a Jolly nature becomes necessary. 160 Speed EVs is sufficient for outspeeding Terrakion. 176 Spe EVs will outpace positive base 110s like Froslass. Finally, 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus, which makes them unreliable answers, especially if they're using Will-O-Wisp. Once the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>

<p>Unlike His other formes, Extreme Killer can utilize almost any item. For those seeking a balanced approach, Silk Scarf is the preferred option. It provides a 20% boost to ExtremeSpeed without compromising bulk. For a more offensive touch, Life Orb provides a great deal more power to all of Arceus's attacks, though the recoil damage is unfortunate. With just a Life Orb and Swords Dance boost, ExtremeSpeed is capable of OHKOing threats such as Kyurem-B, Zekrom, and tank Ho-Oh without any hazards. It is also the best item to use against His top defensive checks. If the Speed of Jolly is favored, Life Orb is recommended to compensate for the loss of power in comparison with Adamant. For those that favor one-time status protection, Lum Berry is the best option. It is particularly useful for its utility in lead and SmashPass situations. However, the power loss is substantial: without the boost from Silk Scarf or Life Orb, Arceus is unable to OHKO many Pokemon like Palkia and Mewtwo without sufficient entry hazard support. For those that wish to maximize Arceus's staying power, Leftovers takes full advantage of His bulk. It works well with a bulkier spread in combination with Recover, dropping Attack to make room for more defensive EVs. Power Herb can be used alongside Shadow Force and Stealth Rock support to always get past Lugia and specially defensive Giratina, but is very situational.</p>

<p>Although the given coverage moves are generally the most reliable, these slots are extremely flexible. A Life Orb-boosted Overheat incinerates Skarmory, Sableye, and Bronzong under sun, but is next to useless under rain. If Life Orb is forgone, Fire Blast is a better option while also having increased utility against Ferrothorn and Forretress. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its increased power against Giratina and Giratina-O, but loses utility against Lugia and Ghost Arceus. Grass Knot 2HKOes Groudon and Hippowdon on the switch, but restricts coverage substantially. Similarly, Safeguard can prevent status for multiple turns, while Substitute eases prediction, protects against status, and punishes revenge killers.</p>

<p>Two approaches exist to counteract Arceus: defensive titans and revenge killers. Defensive titans consist of Toxic stallers, phazers, or Will-O-Wisp abusers like Skarmory and Wallceus; revenge killers consist of Pokemon like Terrakion that can survive one of His faster boosted attacks comfortably yet deal considerable damage back. Arceus is specialized: He might be able to overpower several checks with a given moveset, but He is unable to overpower everything. As such, against defensive titans, the best support is to weaken any defensive Pokemon capable of dealing with His specialization beforehand. Luring them out and sufficiently damaging them will make the most of His sweeping abilities. Pokemon such as Blaziken, Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza can make excellent lures, as Arceus's defensive answers are often used in response to these threats. Powerful wallbreakers such as Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Latios, Mewtwo, and Reshiram can blast holes through the opponent's team, possibly exposing these Pokemon as well as easing Arceus's sweep. Entry hazard shuffling is also beneficial in both the damage and exposure element. Finally, specific answers that can come in on troublesome defensive Pokemon happen to be excellent teammates. Magnezone can trap and eliminate Skarmory. Xatu and stallbreaker Heatran are excellent answers against Wallceus. Giratina and Lugia dislike Darkrai, Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W.</p>

<p>Regarding revenge killers, the best support is to weaken them to the point where a faster boosted attack can OHKO, cripple their Speed, or reduce their offense to a manageable level. Entry hazards are very helpful for their damaging properties; Pokemon such as Deoxys-S, Ferrothorn, and Groudon are excellent entry hazard users. Lures such as Swords Dance Rayquaza or double status Darkrai can either deal considerable damage or cripple with status. Proper weather control through Pokemon such as Kyogre and Groudon is crucial as several revenge killers, such as Kabutops, Omastar, and Choice Scarf Heatran, are dependent on it. Dual Screens from Pokemon like Deoxys-S and Latios can be helpful for softening enemy assaults. Carrying specific answers to His revenge killers is also a wise choice. For instance, Wobbuffet can dispatch Choice Scarf users while also buying Him a turn to use Swords Dance if necessary. Of course, keeping Arceus healthy is an option as most revenge killers are unable to OHKO Him should He be at relatively high health.</p>

[SET]
name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return
move 4: Roar / Perish Song
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Standing up to the might of fearsome Uber titans, Wallceus can function as a nearly unbreakable wall. His Defense is so formidable that He is one of the best answers to Extreme Killer. Although His Normal typing isn't exactly the holy grail of defensive typings, He stands out from His other formes with a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers.</p>

<p>To keep the physical attackers at bay, Will-O-Wisp is the preferred option. It disables nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers&mdash;Groudon, Rayquaza, physical Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few&mdash;with a crippling burn. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon like Ho-Oh. If these issues are bothersome, Reflect is a better option. Although it lasts only five turns and can be canceled by Brick Break, Reflect does not miss, benefits the whole team, and can affect physical attackers behind a Substitute. Recover provides reliable recovery and lengthens His staying power, while Return provides a solid STAB attack that increases offensive pressure. It also enables Him to defeat Extreme Killer without the need to phaze.</p>

<p>For His last slot, both options are useful for their utility against setup sweepers. Roar is the preferred option as it immediately phazes any threat that tries to set up, most notably physical attackers that have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. It also weakens most switch-ins provided that there is sufficient entry hazard support. For those willing to take a longer approach, Perish Song is a better option. Although it takes three turns to have an effect, Perish Song will virtually guarantee an eventual switch and will place an inevitable end to last-Pokemon setup sweepers such as Calm Mind Arceus.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As the physical attackers of the Uber metagame have such destructive potential, bulk investment is mandatory to effectively take them on. Heavy investment in physical bulk is necessary to successfully tank Extreme Killer's ExtremeSpeed. As such, the given EVs and nature ensure maximum physical bulk while still allowing Him to outpace neutral base 95s. Nevertheless, Arceus can be specialized to outspeed certain threats. Most notably, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature takes full advantage of His base 120 Speed. By outspeeding most physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, by lowering His bulk, Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits is diminished. It also makes Him significantly more vulnerable to faster attacks, most notably ExtremeSpeed.</p>

<p>Instead of running an attacking move, Wallceus can run a non-attacking move to provide additional utility. If status issues are particularly bothersome, Refresh is an excellent option. Status moves such as Thunder Wave or Toxic improve His status arsenal, while Magic Coat reflects entry hazards, status moves, or Taunt when used with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also usable as a last resort. However, these options forsake offensive pressure as well as increasing His vulnerability to Taunt users. Iron Defense is a possible option over Will-O-Wisp or Reflect. Although it does not cripple the physical attacker and is dependent on Arceus's continued presence, Iron Defense does not miss, cannot be canceled by Brick Break, has greater defensive potential, and does not depend on status. It is also the superior option against Extreme Killer; only faster Life Orb Brick Break variants are capable of overcoming Him. Judgment can be used over Return along with a Bold (or Timid) nature and Ice Beam as the last moveslot. Ice Beam has increased utility against those vulnerable to Ice-type attacks such as Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp, but is less effective against setup sweepers that are not. Of course, there are several options over Return. Although ExtremeSpeed has reduced PP and Base Power, it bluffs Extreme Killer and provides valuable priority. Flamethrower with a Bold nature incinerates Ferrothorn and Forretress. Earthquake shatters Heatran, which would otherwise wall this set completely.</p>

<p>Although Wallceus is difficult to take down, He is not invincible. Despite His very good uninvested special bulk, extremely powerful special attacks from the likes of Kyogre and Kyurem-W can be an issue. Tanking strong Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Fighting Arceus and Heracross is also problematic. In addition, Wallceus lacks wide offensive coverage, which means He will always be vulnerable against certain checks as well as being possible entry hazard bait.</p>

<p>For teams that require a sturdy physical wall, Wallceus can be a fantastic choice. He provides excellent utility for dealing with physical setup sweepers, especially with access to Perish Song. However, because He is unspecialized against special attackers, Pokemon such as Kyogre, Chansey, Latias, Ho-Oh, and Lugia tend to be great teammates. In particular, Calm Mind users are excellent partners, as provided Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any crippled physical attacker is significantly less threatening to their possible sweep. Wallceus also appreciates teammates that can take on His Fighting-type weakness. Giratina and Giratina-O are excellent examples, as not only do they pack an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness, but they also spinblock the hazards that He can utilize for wearing down the opponent's team. Speaking of hazards, Wallceus greatly dislikes opposing entry hazards, as they compromise His excellent bulk. As such, Forretress is a great partner thanks to Rapid Spin, an immunity to Toxic, and its ability to provide entry hazards.</p>

[SET]
name: Bandceus (Choice Band)
move 1: Trick
move 2: ExtremeSpeed
move 3: Swords Dance / Shadow Claw
move 4: Earthquake / Shadow Claw
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>As befitting His stature, Arceus can utilize a Choice Band set to devastating effect. His value is not only in His ability to revenge kill threats such as Darkrai, Ho-Oh, and Rayquaza with a stronger STAB ExtremeSpeed, but also His ability to lure the common checks of Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Utilizing the fact that Arceus is often assumed to be Extreme Killer, Bandceus can Trick a Choice Band to the incoming check, granting an opportunity for another sweeper to press their newfound advantage. As after being Tricked a Choice Band, defensive answers like Skarmory and Lugia are turned into complete liabilities. However, Trick must be used with caution, for it is generally a one-way street. As such, it is critical that prior to using Trick, double switching is used to confirm the intended target is actually sent in.</p>

<p>Bandceus's remaining slots are dependent on His intended role. If sweeping potential is desired after His Choice Band has been Tricked, Swords Dance and one additional coverage move allows Him to take on a persona similar to Extreme Killer, albeit limited in coverage. Coverage moves can include Earthquake, which deals with Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon, or Shadow Claw, which deals with Ghost-types. If better coverage at the cost of sweeping potential is desired, both Earthquake and Shadow Claw combined will suffice.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Much like Extreme Killer, Bandceus doesn't have much reason to bother with Speed. The given EVs and nature grant Him the same combination of maximum power, very good bulk, and just enough Speed to outpace neutral base 95s. But Bandceus, just like Extreme Killer, has a multitude of spreads that can be used. Invest as many Speed EVs as desired to outspeed certain key threats. Most notably, 168 Speed EVs will outspeed positive base 95s like Jolly Rayquaza, while a Jolly nature with 252 Speed EVs will guarantee a Speed tie against maximum Speed Arceus as well as outspeeding Terrakion. Once the desired Speed has been reached, maximize Attack and then place any remaining EVs into HP to improve His overall bulk. However, do recall that the greater the Speed investment, the lesser the bulk.</p>

<p>For those that prefer more power and PP, Return can be used over ExtremeSpeed. It is capable of 2HKOing Lugia after Stealth Rock, but the loss of priority hinders His revenge killing capabilities, His sweeping potential, and His Extreme Killer disguise. Dragon Claw can be used over Shadow Claw for its chance of 2HKOing physically defensive Giratina-O after Stealth Rock, but loses utility against Ghost Arceus and Bronzong. Likewise, Punishment can be used for its utility against Calm Mind users such as Ghost Arceus, Giratina-O, and Latias, but is rather dependent on the opponent's boosts. For those seeking improved performance against Bronzong and Ferrothorn as well as the cancellation of screens, Brick Break can be used over Earthquake, though is otherwise much weaker in general.</p>

<p>When running Bandceus, one must be very careful to avoid running an inferior Extreme Killer. He has much less sweeping potential, so in order to justify His usage over Extreme Killer, it is critical that His lure and revenge killing capabilities are taken advantage of. As such, it is mandatory that He is paired up with offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of Extreme Killer's crippled checks. Good examples range from Blaziken to Ho-Oh and Groudon to Rayquaza. Regarding Arceus Himself, it is important to patch up any moveslot shortcomings. For example, should He be running Earthquake as His sole coverage move, some way of dealing with Giratina-O is essential. Of course, carrying teammates that specifically deal with His checks and counters is a very wise choice. For example, Latias deals with Fighting Arceus, while Giratina or Giratina-O have an immunity to His only weakness and can spinblock.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>With His extraordinary movepool and His second to none stats, Arceus can fill almost any role. He could run a Calm Mind or Work Up set to utilize His excellent stats. He could run a Perish Trapping set with Perish Song and Whirlpool. He could run a dual screens set in combination with Light Clay. He could run a Choice Specs set, a specially inclined version of the Choice Band set. Or He could run a Swords Dance Last Resort set to obliterate anything that is not a Ghost-type. For all intents and purposes, the choice is entirely up to you.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, due to Species Clause, only a single Arceus is allowed on a team at a time. As such, the opportunity cost of running such sets will be high. Indeed, these sets are unorthodox for a reason: the Calm Mind or Work Up set has horrible STAB coverage in comparison to other Arceus formes; Perish Trapping is extremely unreliable in Ubers; dual screens is best left to other Pokemon; the Choice Specs set lacks power plus utility; and the Last Resort set requires a considerable amount of support. That being said, if these sets are of particular interest, then feel free to use them.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Should one see Arceus on Team Preview, it is critical to rule out the presence of Extreme Killer before letting His answers be in danger. While there is no true counter to Extreme Killer outside of Unaware Quagsire, there are four that can easily deal with Him for the most part: Skarmory, Wallceus, Great Wall Giratina, and Multiscale Lugia. All four of these checks can either stall Extreme Killer to death should they be healthy or phaze Him in the scenario that they are weakened or unwilling to risk a possible miss. However, even the toughest of checks can fall to the right move or item, albeit in circumstantial situations. Toxic Skarmory falls to non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts and has to be wary of last-Pokemon +6 Brick Breaks. Faster boosted Life Orb Brick Breaks overpower Wallceus, while last-Pokemon Lum Berry Brick Break variants are problematic should He be running the shaky Will-O-Wisp. Similarly, Giratina bows down to a boosted Shadow Force, last-Pokemon Lum Berry Shadow Claw variants, or last-Pokemon Recover variants with Shadow Claw. Reflect and Toxic Lugia is overwhelmed by boosted Life Orb Shadow Claws after Stealth Rock. All of them must also watch out for the rare Bandceus that can Trick a crippling Choice Band.</p>

<p>Rather than pseudo-countering Extreme Killer, it is easier to keep Him in check using multiple Pokemon through concerted means. For example, although Choice Scarf Terrakion cannot switch into Earthquake, it can easily survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and revenge kill with Close Combat. However, should Arceus manage to survive, a combination check can be used to finish Him off. Offensive Ghost Arceus is an excellent example, as His immunity to ExtremeSpeed allows Him to revenge kill weakened Extreme Killer. With smart combinations of both strong and lesser checks, the application of high pressure to limit setup opportunities, and careful conservation of these aforementioned checks, it is more than possible to deal with Extreme Killer.</p>

<p>Thanks to priority Will-O-Wisp and Foul Play, Sableye is an excellent check. However, it will lose to sun-boosted Life Orb Overheat or Lum Berry Earthquake variants after Stealth Rock. Support Ghost Arceus can be used similarly to Wallceus, but the lack of Leftovers, a strong attacking move, and His weakness to Shadow Force and Shadow Claw makes Him the lesser check. Physically defensive Groudon and Hippowdon are very effective phazers, but can be worn down. Rock and Steel Arceus can also use a support set like Ghost Arceus, but the weakness to Earthquake and Brick Break is quite unfortunate. Likewise, Fighting Arceus favors an approach similar to Terrakion, but obtains reliable recovery and bulk at the cost of power and the resistance to ExtremeSpeed. Thankfully, Arceus formes that carry plates are very effective against Bandceus, though they dislike taking super effective attacks.</p>

<p>Although it loses to Brick Break and non-rain Overheats and Fire Blasts, a physically defensive Bronzong can stall many variants. Along the same lines as Terrakion and Fighting Arceus, other revenge killers can include Choice Scarf users such as Dialga and Heatran or Swift Swim users such as Kabutops and Omastar. However, they are generally less effective due to their weather dependency or lack of power. A physically defensive Giratina-O variant can survive any boosted move bar Shadow Force or possibly Dragon Claw and either Will-O-Wisp or phaze Him out. It also has an immunity to Trick, which is handy against Bandceus. Choice Band Landorus-T and Scizor can tank a boosted attack and inflict severe damage or possibly OHKO with Superpower, but have to be perfectly conserved. An utmost conserved physically defensive Forretress can triumph using Toxic and Pain Split, but will still lose to Fire Blast and Overheat. It also loses to Life Orb or Lum Berry Earthquake variants, but is still able to cripple Him. Similarly, physically defensive Ferrothorn is an annoyance with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs, but performs best when used as a combination check. If all else fails, faster Pokemon that are immune or resistant to ExtremeSpeed can attempt to use Destiny Bond, Trick, or Explosion to stop His sweep, but it will almost always result in their loss. Similarly, although no Intimidate user can truly stand up to Extreme Killer, the Attack drop might allow others to defeat Him.</p>

<p>It is to be noted that as Wallceus is more inclined to defeating answers with attrition, He necessitates a very different response than that of Extreme Killer. Thanks to STAB Fighting-type attacks and Recover, Fighting Arceus is Wallceus's best counter. Fire Arceus is similar and has an immunity to burn, but lacks Fighting Arceus's consistent damage. Despite its vulnerability to attrition and lack of reliable recovery, stallbreaker Heatran shuts down any Wallceus that lacks the obscure Earthquake thanks to Taunt and Toxic.</p>

<p>Any other answer to Wallceus is either easily worn down, can be phazed before significant damage is done, or is vulnerable to Return. Magic Bounce Xatu can switch into any move besides Return after Stealth Rock or Ice Beam and proceed to completely wall Arceus. Heracross can take advantage of a possible Attack boost through Guts, allowing it to pulverize Him with Close Combat. Reshiram and Victini roast Arceus with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Blaziken smashes Him with Hi Jump Kick or sun-boosted Flare Blitz, but has to be mindful of Reflect. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Kyurem-W are particularly threatening due to Wallceus's lack of specialization against special attackers. Should the weather be sun, Ho-Oh can switch into any move but Return after Stealth Rock and proceed to deal considerable damage with Sacred Fire. However, Reflect variants actually wall Ho-Oh despite the sun boost, though the possible burn is an annoyance. Support Pokemon that can inflict detrimental status effects like Toxic poison, preferably with a method of alleviating status, can be quite effective against Wallceus. However, they are significantly less viable against Refresh variants.</p>

Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up.

Furai said:

Use this. It's already Q/Ced and all it needs is a write-up.

Click to expand...

Already asked me if he could use it and I told him yes noob furry -__-

Nexus said:

Already asked me if he could use it and I told him yes noob furry -__-

Click to expand...

It's fine Nexus ;). Though I did mention it was likely I would use Poppy's stuff in the first post, I haven't exactly placed his stuff in yet. In fact, the link Furai provided will prove most useful in this task as I won't have to look inside the Locked / Outdated Analyses section as much. Anyway, thank you both for letting me use this stuff as well as giving an easily accessible link. Really appreciate it.

NOTE: I'm assuming the QC checks will still hold true if I use Poppy's stuff? Or will it need new QC checks? Thanks.

Unless BW got it something extrmely useful, or something else can now defeat it, I think they still hold. And fuck you Nexsux gtfo I didn't know he just posted a skeleton

Massive Update to First Post

Thanks Furai for the prompt response about QC checks! On that note, Poppy's stuff has now been added to the first post. Still, new information might be necessary because of the metagame shift (EX: Multiscale Lugia). Thus, QC checks are tentatively placed in the title. This will be changed if the Ubers QC team feels new QC checks are required.

If you feel something is missing from this analysis, please post!

EDIT: The QC checks were previously from:

This looks fine, just make sure you gear the analysis towards Black and White 2 by mentioning how it fares against the new threats. A couple of small things:

- Mention Landorus-T in Checks and Counters for ExtremeKiller. Yes, it is quite a flimsy check, but at full health, it can take a +1 ExtremeSpeed (thanks to Intimidate) and deal a truckload of damage with Choice Banded Superpower, much like Scizor can. Mention how Intimidate is helpful in dealing with ExtremeKiller in general.
- Mention Gengar as well for an ExtremeKiller check. Again, it is pretty flimsy, but you are immune to ExtremeSpeed and can deal quite a bit of damage with Focus Blast (if it hits). Choice Scarf Gengar outspeeds all ExtremeKiller variants, while SubDisable can, with some prediction, beat slower variants.

Otherwise, I'll stamp this again. QC APPROVED 1/3

I think a CB set should be added, but only as the last set AND it has to have Trick. The set being

ExtremeSpeed
Trick
Earthquake/Shadow Claw
Swords Dance / Shadow Claw

revenging stuff with ExtremeSpeed is nice and all, but the real point of this set is that a lot of Arceus switch ins like Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory REALLY hate getting tricked a Choice Band (and of course teammates should reflect this). The tough part is coverage moves... if you use Swords Dance and Earthquake, it does fine but it 100% loses to Giratina-O, but if you use Shadow Claw, you won't get past Steels. If you value coverage more than sweeping power, then you can nix SD for Shadow Claw. So generally this isn't going to sweep as well as regular SD Arceus, but it deserves a set just because its a decent lure, and of course CB ExtremeSpeed can save you in a pinch against some offensive stuff (I'll get calcs later if you need that). Otherwise... Arceus didn't really change much!

emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check...
scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw

add in tmon's trick set, it's good

then you'll get my stamp

The analysis has now been updated with Theorymon's Choice Band set. Intimidate and the new threats of BW2 are mentioned. Landorus-T and Gengar remain controversial as checks to Extreme Killer, see Checks/Counters section in the first post for more details. This should hopefully be the last of any significant changes.

Could QC please check the Choice Band set and the Checks/Counters in detail? Thanks.

EDIT: Could someone post after Post #12 please, I would rather not double post. Thanks.

Shadow Force to be deslashed and put into AC? Or should it stay slashed? Right now, it's slashed. Shadow Force DOES have obscene power though... It's still used a fair bit according to Moveset Analysis.

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Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.

Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...

EDIT: TO THE POST BELOW MINE, two Shadow Claws already have greater power then a Shadow Force, so really those calcs are slightly unimportant. The only important one is the wobba one, the others, Arceus can just shadow claw twice and not risk hitting Chansey instead. Lugia sets up reflect anyway on the turn it dissapears (lol).

EDIT2: DIRECTED TO THE EDIT OF THE POST BELOW MINE, well after Gira-a gets that one turn of leftovers its no longer always OHKOed :(, and like I said Lugia can Reflect. So those calcs are a bit iffy too :(.

Also

Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers.

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BEST EUPHEMISM ever <- do not read with Sardonic tone, that literally was THE BEST EUPHEMISM EVER :D. In other words, this is a compliment, not an offensive statement.

EDIT 3: It won't even always OHKO Gira-a after lefties and rocks all the time. That and the chances of it landing are slim.
Also a reply to you :P
EDIT 4: Yeah the comments are fine now :P. EDIT WARS are fun, although I think people are going wth is this lol. Thanks for the color info :D, yes I was R-spin.

Mr.lol said:

Ok just to clear this up BEFORE you start writing, the reason why Shadow Force should be even considered over Shadow Claw is NOT because of the humongous power boost, nay. Unless your using it with Power Herb, Shadow Force's MAIN USE IS TO TAKE THAT EXTRA POISON TURN AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TOXIC SPIKES.It allows Arceus to evade a WoW from Gira-a, then strike back after its taken a tad bit of residual damage, which can actually be lethal, if toxic spikes aren't present Gira-a GAINS Leftovers instead, Lugia can Reflect. If its going in AC make sure you mention that, because I have a feeling that everyone forgot that -_-. Also emphasize in AC that one Shadow Force is weaker then two Shadow Claws, warn of using it at all costs unless you have Toxic Spikes support. <- Yes I just rewrote the same statement twice in different words and bolded it, ITS THAT IMPORTANT.

Also mention Kabutops and Omastar as checks to the ExtremeKiller set since they can come in to Extremekiller as it Swords Dances, and then OHKO it next turn with a Superpower / Low Kick (Kabutops) and Hydro Pump (Omastar). Both of them don't really care about ExtremeSpeed due to respectable defenses and a resist given courtesy of typing, and they outspeed due to swift swim :D. I normally wouldn't bother to mention these things but if we are mentioning things like Gengar...... yeah...

Click to expand...

What you have said about Shadow Force is certainly quite true. The power is still important though as it alleviates Wobbuffet concerns and stands a respectable chance at OHKOing Giratina and Lugia after SR with Life Orb, SD, and Adamant. He also easily OHKOs Physically Defensive Giratina-O with Life Orb (Adamant guaranteed, Jolly 50%). Actually, Shadow Force might be good enough due to all these points and yours to stay as a slash despite its charge turn. Thanks for your points Mr.lol, I'll be sure to use them for Shadow Force.

SS Kabutops and Omastar are certainly checks. That's why they were already mentioned. However, what you have given definitely shows that they are checks.

Concerning Gengar, I would be inclined to agree with you. Gengar is not exactly the ideal Pokemon to use in Ubers. But then again, Gengar could be annoying to Extreme Killer, however flimsy (and rare) it may be. QC? Should Gengar be seriously mentioned? Thanks.

EDIT: Because they are possible OHKOs, they are important. After a Swords Dance, the turns that come after do matter. For instance, using Shadow Claw twice leaves you vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp, Roar, and assorted. Shadow Force allows you to avoid those and possibly OHKO Giratina, Lugia, etc. If they switch, Shadow Force will damage whatever comes in. However, it helps to get rid of any Normal-type Pokemon if applicable like you said before beginning a serious sweep.

Concerning Shadow Force (without Power Herb), it does better against Giratina, not Lugia. As you are fully aware of, Lugia has Reflect and also Multiscale.

EDIT 2:


If I could leave you with one thought after you read the reply, it's this:

EDIT 3:

You are correct. Like you and I said, the OHKO is a possibility, a chance. It is still respectable though. For your case of SR and Leftovers, there is a 31.25% chance of Arceus OHKOing Giratina (Great Wall) with a +2 Adamant Life Orb Shadow Force (Check the first damage calculation of Edit 2 for source). This does not include chance of crits.

I probably should have made the first damage calculation more explicit in referring to SR and Leftovers. Remember, Giratina switching into SR and two turns of Leftovers is essentially the same as switching into no SR.

Again, it is important to note that other stuff like Spikes, Toxic Spikes (Which you mentioned), previous damage on Giratina, etc. significantly increases the chance of an OHKO. For instance, SR and 1 layer of Spikes essentially guarantees an OHKO. Shadow Force is a fine option against Giratina (and others) when used properly.

About your log, it does not seem to showcase Shadow Force in its best light. In fact, it doesn't even show Extreme Killer in a good light. The individual who used Extreme Killer seemed to use Him very early in the game, clearly evident by the turn count. When facing a team as defensive as that, it might prove useful to weaken it a bit before sending out Extreme Killer. I assume you were R-spin?

If you want colors, just use this:
[COLOR=Insert Hex Color]Insert Text Here[/COLOR].

To be honest, I just copied one of my many test logs (Logs which are testing Shadow Force's performance against Giratina and vice versa) and pasted it here. Seemed to work fine for me.

NOTE: I'll be sure to use the points gathered during this discussion for Shadow Force! Right now, I'm leaning towards keeping it as a second slash, but with lots of comments in AC about its advantages/disadvantages over Shadow Claw. Thanks.

EDIT 4: Check the first post of this thread for my planned comments on Shadow Force. Are these suitable?

Choice Band set looks good.

Checks and Counters looks good, put a mention of Bronzong there. I am SO iffy on Sableye and Gengar, they are a total fail in Ubers. If you do mention them, be sure to mention they suck, as much as I love Sableye.

scarf gengar is a better check than most might think, scarf, let alone destiny bond is quite a rare sight. although, traditionally we don't rely on 'surprise' factor as a measure of effectiveness so i want more experienced members of QC to weigh in here; however, i am leaning towards mentioning this as a 'decent check, but if arceus doesn't attack you've most likely lost.'

bronzong can only toxic so just make sure you say that (i don't even know why you would mention it though, since forretress basically does the same thing)

i would actually put fighting arceus at number 6, with max special attack it has a good chance at OHKOing most extremekiller, whereas scarf dialga / heatran need substantial residual, omastar and kabutops need less residual but are rain reliant and omastar can only use hydro pump.

I'm hesitant about calling Skarmory a counter. I mean, it can phase it out, but it doesn't really pose an immediate threat. Brave Bird takes like 1/4th of Arceus's HP, while +2 ExtremeSpeed does 35.92 - 41.91% to SpD Skarmory. +6 ExtremeSpeed does 71.25 - 84.13%. I mean its a very solid check, but if Extreme Killer is the last mon you can't really count on Skarmory unless you are running something weird like Toxic Skarmory or have Toxic Spikes support and you can phase it out after/if it used a Lum Berry.

Replies to Recent Posters

Here are my replies to Furai, Poppy, and firecape.

Replying to Furai:
Replying to Poppy:
Replying to firecape:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll post my test results for Checks / Counters later after I finished testing Physically Defensive Ho-Oh and CB Metagross. Are there any more possible "checks" you would like me to test (Preferably something which won't waste my time)? Thanks.

Poppy said:

emphasise flimsy for that lando-t being a check...
scarf gengar with destiny bond is a decent check, subdisable is tough because jolly variants outspeed and smart players will outspeed disable with extremespeed so they can continue attacking with shadow claw

add in tmon's trick set, it's good

then you'll get my stamp

Click to expand...

Just saying, it's actually not that easy to get Gengar to Disable ExtremeSpeed. Once Arceus breaks the Sub with Shadow Claw, the best move on Gengar is actually to Sub again. Basically, you follow this flow-chart:

1) Gengar uses Sub

V

2) Arceus uses Shadow Claw, Sub broken -> Use Disable to Disable Shadow Claw

V

3) Gengar uses Sub -> Arceus uses Shadow Claw -> Go back to stage 2

V

Arceus uses ExtremeSpeed -> Spam Focus Blast

You generally have 4-5 Substitutes you can actually make against a slow Arceus. That's 4-5 chances you'll get the mind-game of Disable vs Substitute correct. Those aren't bad odds, IMO.

i'm probably a bit biased against bronzong because i think it's worthless but i do realize its immunity to EQ makes it a better check than forretress

skarm often carries toxic in ubers so it's definitely more of a counter than a check

this gengar argument is ridiculous and i'm satsified with leaving gengar as some sort situational check or just not mentioning it at all

the fighting arceus set i'm actually getting at is 240 hp 252 spa 16 spe modest which i used as my extremekiller check for a few teams. so you can just mention that fighting areus is a good check but needs bulk and maximum special attack to be reliable.

i do take your point about obscure checks so i do think it should stop here

don't mention sableye it's shit

forretress should have pain split as a primary option but that's another story entirely (another update for me to get onto)

edit: you need to pair physically defensive ho-oh with gira-o/a or ghost arceus with roar or WoW to beat arceus. that ho-oh's main purpose is to take one extremespeed and attempt to burn it then switch out to something else that can handle burned arceus.

I guess its fine if you mention Gengar just stick it at the bottom of the pile with Landorus-T and co, to be used as a last resort check if you have no other alternative (seriously) No to CB Metagross. Seriously, why are we mentioning these stuff anyway. Its not like they ever get used in Ubers anyway. Doesnt make a difference I guess. This analysis looks good otherwise, the transition for Arceus to b/w2 was pretty smooth i guess.

QC Approved 2/3

Replies to Recent Posters

Here are my replies to shrang, Poppy, and barry4ever.

Replying to shrang:

Replying to Poppy:

Replying to barry4ever:

---------------------------------------------------

Since the Checks / Counters section seems to be fine for Extreme Killer now, I’ll just post any test results on request.

Is this analysis update ready for the last QC check? Or is there some last issue which has to be addressed? An example might include the Checks / Counters for Wallceus (Personally, I think it needs a touch more revamp. Thoughts?). Thanks.

This is super serious and not related in any way to April Fools, js.


EDIT: Sableye should be mentioned as a counter to non-Fire Blast Extreme Killer and Choice Band Arceus if it gets tricked on

If no one minds, I'd like to suggest at least a mention of an EV spread of 49 HP / 252 Atk / 207 Spe with an Adamant Nature. This allows Arceus to just outpace Genesect, who you can't kill with ExtremeSpeed even if you're at +2 and Genesect is running a hasty nature, and Genesect is quite popular.

Well, Genesect is usually a scarf variant, which means Arceus has no hope of outrunning it. Besides, even scarf Genesect doesn't pose a massive threat to EK on its own.

Here are my replies to Poppy, MatchMaster, and Furai.

Replying to Poppy:

CONTEXT: Poppy originally had a post that contained the final QC check as well as a quick comment about how mentioning Physically Defensive Ho-Oh was optional based on the length of the C&C section for Extreme Killer. However, he then neared his 2000th post...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the QC check Poppy! As of the moment, I’m probably not going to specifically mention Physically Defensive Ho-Oh as the C&C section is huge enough as it is.

Replying to MatchMaster:

As jackm previously mentioned (Thanks for that by the way), the Genesect Speed benchmark isn’t really that notable given that Genesect is usually Choice Scarf (~77% usage as of March). However, you’re more then welcome to invest enough Speed to outspeed non-Choice Scarf Genesect if that is what you desire. In fact, such Speed investment could prove useful against Choice Band Genesect (~4% usage as of March) given that an unboosted Explosion can deal considerable damage:

252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Explosion vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 329-388 (74.6 - 87.98%)

Click to expand...

Hope this addresses your suggestion MatchMaster.

Replying to Furai:

To answer your concerns Furai over Overheat versus Fire Blast, I will be analyzing the relevant matchups where Overheat / Fire Blast can have a real and tangible effect against possible answers. All damage calculations have been obtained from Honkalculator 4000 unless manual calculation was required (i.e. calculations involving -2 SpA drops from Overheat, combination of attacks, etc.). Your Sableye concerns have been addressed in its respective section.

NOTE: Silk Scarf (or any item besides Life Orb like Lum Berry or Leftovers) Fire Blast assumes a neutral SpA nature. Silk Scarf (or any item including Life Orb) Overheat assumes a SpA lowering nature.

1. SKARMORY
2. SABLEYE (its special bulk is paltry; even with 252 HP / 4 SpD EVs, its special bulk is around Froslass level)
3. BRONZONG (Levitate of course)
4. FERROTHORN
5. FORRETRESS
6. CHOICE BAND SCIZOR (Make sure to read the note at the end)*
SUMMARY:

1. If you’re using Life Orb, go with Overheat. Best way of taking down Skarmory, Sableye, Bronzong, and Choice Band Scizor. It also has 90% accuracy. However, if you’re more concerned with Ferrothorn and Forretress, Fire Blast is better as it does consistent damage under rain (However, Ferrothorn is still iffy and 85% accuracy could be better).
2. If you’re using Silk Scarf (or any item besides Life Orb like Lum Berry or Leftovers), go with Fire Blast. Make sure to have a neutral SpA nature too (Even though it will lower bulk).
3. Overheat without Life Orb sucks (at least relative to the other options). A neutral SpA nature might work, but the damage is roughly equivalent to Life Orb Fire Blast, just minus some bulk and the consistent damage.

I’ll see what I can do about a specific mention for Fire Blast given its increased utility against threats such as Ferrothorn and Forretress. This has been somewhat addressed by previous notes, but mentioning Fire Blast probably won’t hurt.

Update Analysis Notes said:

- Overheat is mentioned as being useful against Skarmory, but not (as useful) against Forretress and Ferrothorn

Click to expand...

Item clarifications (i.e. Life Orb works best with Overheat, any other item works best with Fire Blast, etc.) will be mentioned if length permits.

Thanks for your suggestion Furai!

Choice Band Landorus-T (He works much better here than against Extreme Killer) can switch into any move (ExtremeSpeed still hurts though; it can possibly 2HKO after SR). Trick doesn't matter for obvious reasons. Superpower only revenges somewhat weakened ones. Unable to heal.

Click to expand...

Just a tiny note, I know that you've addressed Landorus-T before, but this bit needs a small correction. Assuming Stealth Rock is up on both sides, Landorus-T will always survive an Adamant +1 LO ExtremeSpeed at full health (minus SR), while Superpower will always OHKO 240 HP Extreme Killer. Superpower does 90.25% - 106.35%, while +1 LO ES does 74.40% - 87.47% (No chance at all to OHKO Landorus-T at full health with one round of SR). It's an extremely shaky counter, sure, but you do have that one-off stop to Extreme Killer if you're at full health.

Just another more important thing. I know and appreciate the fact that you take great pride and detail in your analyses, but try to make sure this analysis is done in shorter time than Latias's analysis (much shorter). Don't bother going into detail that is unnecessary. We don't want to wait 6 months for an analysis (albeit comprehensive) again, please!