Thanks very much for that Alex, now onto Infernape.
As I've said in a few of my previous posts, team 2 is quite vulnerable to a few specific threats, in particular Politoed and Infernape. I was working with Alexwolf to figure out exactly which mon best filled out team 2, and we tried quite a few different things. Our first idea was CB Garchomp, which dealt with team 1 quite nicely, although we were informed that Chomp wasn't going to be allowed. The next stop then was dragons that resisted fighting (Dragonite, Salamence and the Eon Twins), as they resisted fire, water and fighting. We came up with a Dragonite set that looked very promising, although the weakness to SR, and the clean OHKOs by 3 current members of team 1 sort of deterred me from nominating it.
The main thing that I kept in mind while figuring out what to choose was that as it stands team 2 was in a position where it could be very weak to fire, water and fighting, and it also needed a late game cleaner. Alex and I also tried to figure out what countered Infernape, Genesect, Volcarona and a few other potentially serious threats. Funnily enough it turned out that Infernape actually wrecks both teams 1 & 2 currently, so I decided to mock up a set and some scenarios.
Through a few tweaks with Alex this is what we came up with:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Iron Fist
Naïve 252 ATK 4 SATK 252 SPE
Close Combat
Overheat
Stone Edge
Mach Punch
Its fairly easy to see exactly where each of those moves goes. Close Combat is obligatory on any Ape that isn't purely special, and it also works quite nicely against a lot of team 1, Kyurem, Terrakion and Meloetta, the next move had to of course be a high powered fire move. A lot of Apes will run Flare Blitz rather than Fire Blast/Overheat, although currently the only mon that it will be used against is Metagross, who has a much higher base defense, so Overheat made more sense. Alongside that, Flare Blitz recoil and LO damage racks up very quickly, especailly if Ape if switching in and out a lot. It made a lot more sense to go with Overheat as it is still a clean OHKO. Stone Edge was elected over Ice Punch as it deters team 1 from wanting to choose Volcarona, which as Alex has mentioned could seriously threaten team 2. It is also quite a lot of overkill on Thundurus-T, as you could imagine. The final slot came down to either U-Turn or Mach Punch. U-Turn would have been nice to add another member to the VoltTurn capabilities of this team, and to provide easy switch ins for any particular mon that needs to come in. However it appeared that the general consensus was that Terrakion is a huge threat to team 2 at the moment, and that we don't have any solid checks. So Mach Punch was added to deal with that.
Here are a few calcs to display the offensive potential of Infernape:
(Thanks to HolyAvatar)
Against Thundurus-T
Infernape vs Thundurus-T
-252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Thundurus-T: 108,36% - 127,76% (Guaranteed OHKO)
-252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/4 Def Thundurus-T: 48,49% - 57,19% (Guaranteed 2HKO after SR or 1 turn of LO)
Against Meloetta-A
-252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Meloetta: 79,47% - 93,55% (43,75% chance to OHKO after SR)
Against Metagross
-4 SpAtk Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Metagross: 122,8% - 144,23% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Against Kyurem
-252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 52 HP/0 Def Kyurem: 118,81% - 139,6% (Guaranteed OHKO)
Against Terrakion
-252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 148,61% - 174,61% (Guaranteed OHKO)
-252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 60,37% - 70,59%
-252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Terrakion: 89,16% - 104,95% (31,25% chance to OHKO). Actually almost guaranteed OHKO because of LO recoil.
In regards to Mach Punch vs Terrakion; Terrakion and Infernape will have exactly the same speed, so Mach Punch is a safety net if we wish to avoid running the risk of losing the speed-tie, and inevitably, Infernape. As HolyAvatar's calcs show, Mach Punch is a serious threat to Terrakion after a few attacks and SR damage, or if its at -1 after a CC, it just has to get out of there. HolyAvatar's calcs also showed that Kyurems EP will OHKO Ape cleanly, so Ape can't come in on Kyurem behind a sub, thats okay though. One of the benefits (of which there are a hell of a lot) of Infernape for team 2, is that it doesn't necessarily need to play a big role in the early stages of the match. It could either come in and play the first half of the match, punching holes through
everything , or it could come in late game and just sweep everything thats left.
Aside from the speed-tie with Terrakion it outspeeds all of team 1 currently, bar Meloetta-P, which really isn't going to take a Mach Punch all that well:
Mach Punch (56.3 - 66.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and if its in Pirouette form, it has to have at least fired off one attack.
If Ape did come in late game, after say Meloetta and Terrakion were in range of a OHKO from CC and Mach Punch respectively, there isn't anything that team 1 could do. HolyAvatar also provided calcs in regards to how well Ape takes Metagross' BP;
-252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 24,91% - 29,69%
-252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Infernape: 37,54% - 44,37%
Which is very useful to see, so Ape could easily stay in for a few turns, KOing member after member of team 1, provided anything that doesn't get OHKO'd flat out is within OHKO range.
As I mentioned earlier, the two biggest threats that Alex and I kept in the back of our mind were Politoed and Infernape. Now picking Infernape doesn't do a whole lot to change the scales for team 1 picking Infernape, although it does make Politeod a hell of a lot more desirable. Politoed allows them to have rain, which really boosts Meloetta and Thundurus' danger levels, and it would also mean that Metagross can deal with Overheat, whilst having about half our team in constant fear of taking a high powered water attack. This is where it gets fun.
If team 1 does want to pick Politoed, which is really the smartest play at the moment, they are basically limited to one of two varients. They either have to pick a ScarfToed, or a physically bulky 252/252 positive nature. This is sort of what the whole thread was about, in regards to manipulating what the other team is able to pick. If they do want to pick the best choice for their team as a whole, they are really limited in what they can do. The BulkyToed is easily dealt with through a combination of Rotom and Celebi, Celebi being able to absorb those Toxics and Scald burns, while Rotom can just Volt Switch straight into Celebi. ScarfToed is a little more threatening, and the better option for team 1. It will outspeed everything on team 2 bar Rotom, Scizor's BP, Ape's Mach Punch and Mamo's Ice Shard. However between those, I think it can be dealt with quite easily. Really, it would be dealt with in much the same way as BulkyToed, by Celebi. Heres a few calcs for that.
These calcs are assuming a ScarfToed set like this;
Politoed @ Choice Scarf
Timid 4 HP 252 SATK 252 SPE
Drizzle
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
HP-Grass/Psychic/Perish Song
Focus Blast
Ice Beam vs Celebi: (45.63 - 54.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Celebi can happily take that, then either T-wave, or Giga Drain, then proceed to set up a Nasty Plot.
Giga Drain vs Politoed: (90.06 - 106.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not a great match up huh, and heres calcs for Rotom and how it deals with Politoed,
VoltSwitch: (61.49 - 72.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Thunderbolt: (83.85 - 98.75%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As evidenced, it is quite easy to deal with. I'll just point out that the reason that I say those are really the best options in terms of a Politoed set for team 1, is that if they went say a SpecsToed then Ape would do this:
Close Combat: (86.02 - 101.55%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Team 1 could potentially elect a bulky SDEF Politoed set to better deal with Celebi and Rotom, although that doesn't fare all that much better against Infernape;
Close Combat: (72.13 - 85.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As far as Overheat vs Metagross in the rain, its down from being a guaranteed OHKO to only dealing 61.4-72.12%, which isn't bad, but it isn't a OHKO. However at that range after rocks Mach Punch would make quick work of it. Although Ape can't stay in if its locked into EQ, as thats just bad for Ape, very bad >.> In the rain however, Rotom's Hydro Pump will demolish Metagross, so its not really an issue.
Picking Ape does make Politoed, and rain, even more appealing to team 1, however it doesn't exactly open us up to huge weaknesses. This Ape would instantly become the biggest threat to team 1 which means that if they don't decide to pick Politoed, their options are still fairly limited. A few potential counters include things such as Jellicent and Slowbro, neither of which really fit in with team 1 currently. As Skore and I previously mentioned, at this stage of the team building, it really shouldn't be about picking a mon to hard-counter just one of the other teams mons. Although this Ape would almost force team 1 to do just that, unless they want to go for a Scarfed Keldeo or something strange along those lines.
In summary; Infernape will decimate team 1 as it stands, it can happily outspeed everything, and has Mach Punch to deal with that speed-tie with Terrakion. Picking Ape makes rain very appealing to team 1, however as I've said we aren't all that weak to rain. From the midpoint of this thread it appeared as though team 2 would be predominantly on the back foot, although Ape would put team 2 in the drivers seat as long as it is around.
Credit for Ape goes to Alexwolf and myself, with a shout out to HolyAvatar for the helpful calcs, cheers.
Thats my submission, thoughts?
